Re: [AlwaysLearning] Competition (was Angry Son, Frustrated Mommy)
Kim Musolff
***Not sure if this is the case with your son, but we have a little neighbor
friend (boy, age 5) who is VERY competitive. Any sort of game where there
is a winner (or he perceives that there is a winner) really sets him off,
especially since he's one of the younger kids and doesn't very often win.
I've learned to facilitate more cooperative/non-competitive games when he's
around. Sounds like in the "race" with the others kids, the wanting to win
got the best of him.***
YES! YES! YES! He is VERY competitive! So is my husband. I worry about
this. Is it something that children are born with, or something my husband
is making worse? I hate when we all go for family hikes, and it turns in to
a race. I always try to point out the beauty around us and the reasons I
like hiking, to balance out the competitive spin he seems to put on it.
DS is playing T-ball now. They don't keep score in T-ball. DS keeps his
own score as he plays the games. "Otherwise, it's not fun," he tells me!
DD on the otherhand is the complete opposite. DS could make up a game where
they keep points. She could care less how many points she has. She always
encourages DS, telling him, "You win!"
It's hard for me to justify making him NOT competitive, because I do feel
like it's part of who he is. I've tried to make games more cooperative, and
he really doesn't seem to get the point. He gets motivated by points or
scores or winning a race. It feels mean to try and take that away from
him.
Any thoughts on this?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
friend (boy, age 5) who is VERY competitive. Any sort of game where there
is a winner (or he perceives that there is a winner) really sets him off,
especially since he's one of the younger kids and doesn't very often win.
I've learned to facilitate more cooperative/non-competitive games when he's
around. Sounds like in the "race" with the others kids, the wanting to win
got the best of him.***
YES! YES! YES! He is VERY competitive! So is my husband. I worry about
this. Is it something that children are born with, or something my husband
is making worse? I hate when we all go for family hikes, and it turns in to
a race. I always try to point out the beauty around us and the reasons I
like hiking, to balance out the competitive spin he seems to put on it.
DS is playing T-ball now. They don't keep score in T-ball. DS keeps his
own score as he plays the games. "Otherwise, it's not fun," he tells me!
DD on the otherhand is the complete opposite. DS could make up a game where
they keep points. She could care less how many points she has. She always
encourages DS, telling him, "You win!"
It's hard for me to justify making him NOT competitive, because I do feel
like it's part of who he is. I've tried to make games more cooperative, and
he really doesn't seem to get the point. He gets motivated by points or
scores or winning a race. It feels mean to try and take that away from
him.
Any thoughts on this?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 11:23 6/5/2008, you wrote:
to diminish it or, as you say, balance it, find a way to support him
as he is. Competitiveness may be off-putting to you, but it's not
really about you. If you can find a way to compete with him *and*
make it a joyful experience for you and for him, that's all the
better! Seems like your daughter has found a way. :-) When he is
in a situation where he doesn't win, genuine empathy and quiet,
respectful listening can go a long way toward helping a bruised
spirit feel better.
My son could not bear losing a board game to me until only
recently. So, I did the best I could to ensure that he did not lose
when he and I would play something together. Winning was so
important to him and meant so little to me. So, I would sort of
throw the game, not by cheating, really, but by supporting his
efforts to win (almost like being on his team). For me, playing the
game was more important; for him, winning was more important. That's
just who he is. I know this, and I love him and try to support him
in it so each of his moments are as joyful as possible.
Now, when we play games I give it my all, and he, uh, still beats
me! Except in arm wrestling, but he'll be besting me soon in that, I'm sure.
~Marji
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<http://gaiawolf.org/>Joyfully Parenting & Life Coaching
<http://gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf ~ Music for the Planet
<http://myspace.com/marjizintz>Marji's Myspace
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>It's hard for me to justify making him NOT competitive, because I do feelYes. :-) This is definitely part of who he is, and rather than try
>like it's part of who he is. I've tried to make games more cooperative, and
>he really doesn't seem to get the point. He gets motivated by points or
>scores or winning a race. It feels mean to try and take that away from
>him.
>
>Any thoughts on this?
to diminish it or, as you say, balance it, find a way to support him
as he is. Competitiveness may be off-putting to you, but it's not
really about you. If you can find a way to compete with him *and*
make it a joyful experience for you and for him, that's all the
better! Seems like your daughter has found a way. :-) When he is
in a situation where he doesn't win, genuine empathy and quiet,
respectful listening can go a long way toward helping a bruised
spirit feel better.
My son could not bear losing a board game to me until only
recently. So, I did the best I could to ensure that he did not lose
when he and I would play something together. Winning was so
important to him and meant so little to me. So, I would sort of
throw the game, not by cheating, really, but by supporting his
efforts to win (almost like being on his team). For me, playing the
game was more important; for him, winning was more important. That's
just who he is. I know this, and I love him and try to support him
in it so each of his moments are as joyful as possible.
Now, when we play games I give it my all, and he, uh, still beats
me! Except in arm wrestling, but he'll be besting me soon in that, I'm sure.
~Marji
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<http://gaiawolf.org/>Joyfully Parenting & Life Coaching
<http://gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf ~ Music for the Planet
<http://myspace.com/marjizintz>Marji's Myspace
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth Fleming
I wonder if your husband could back off a bit with the competition.....I think (from what I've seen with the neighbor family....5 kids, all very competitive including Dad but not Mom) that the Dad in the family really has the idea that he plays his hardest with the kids so that they'll "learn" how to be tough, stick it out when they're losing, etc. I guess I've seen that it's had the opposite effect on the kids....very low frustration tolerance level for losing anything of any kind. My kids are naturally not as competitive and really like to play games for the fun value, but usually before we get together with this particular family, we talk about what might be fun and what might turn out to be not so fun, and we just don't get into the competition with them. My sense is as kids get older (as Marji noted in her post), they're just more able to handle all the feelings that go along with losing and winning: feeling inadequate and frustrated,
feeling superior, maybe "getting back" at someone for having lost to them earlier, etc. It begins not to matter as much, if it takes its natural course. But I think that always bringing the competitive aspect to their attention at this young age might just be adding fuel to the fire....
Not sure if any of this helps or is applicable to your family, just my .02 on competition!
Peace,
Beth in MA
----- Original Message ----
From: Kim Musolff <kmoose75@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:23:10 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Competition (was Angry Son, Frustrated Mommy)
***Not sure if this is the case with your son, but we have a little neighbor
friend (boy, age 5) who is VERY competitive. Any sort of game where there
is a winner (or he perceives that there is a winner) really sets him off,
especially since he's one of the younger kids and doesn't very often win.
I've learned to facilitate more cooperative/ non-competitive games when he's
around. Sounds like in the "race" with the others kids, the wanting to win
got the best of him.***
YES! YES! YES! He is VERY competitive! So is my husband. I worry about
this. Is it something that children are born with, or something my husband
is making worse? I hate when we all go for family hikes, and it turns in to
a race. I always try to point out the beauty around us and the reasons I
like hiking, to balance out the competitive spin he seems to put on it.
DS is playing T-ball now. They don't keep score in T-ball. DS keeps his
own score as he plays the games. "Otherwise, it's not fun," he tells me!
DD on the otherhand is the complete opposite. DS could make up a game where
they keep points. She could care less how many points she has. She always
encourages DS, telling him, "You win!"
It's hard for me to justify making him NOT competitive, because I do feel
like it's part of who he is. I've tried to make games more cooperative, and
he really doesn't seem to get the point. He gets motivated by points or
scores or winning a race. It feels mean to try and take that away from
him.
Any thoughts on this?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:23 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:
results - enjoy that momentary thrill of victory and despair of defeat
(the possibility of defeat has to exist or the thrill of victory
won't). But I am mature and able to enjoy that moment and then let it
go quickly.
My 17 yo, Rosie, is like this, too. She's a real competitor - she
plays soccer and she WANTS to win. But, she's a good sport, too. If
she loses, she keeps her perspective and can look at the results
objectively. She's very likely to say, "THAT was a great game," when
her team has just lost, for example. The competition is important to
her - she enjoys it. Winning is the goal, but it isn't like THAT is
the only source of joy.
If you're not a competitive person, you might not understand the fun
and satisfaction of it, but please don't make it into a personality
flaw or a moral failure. <G>
My now-20 year old, Roxana, could not handle competition very well
for most of her life - even now it is maybe just a bit difficult for
her. She has a very very strong sense of fair play. Competition isn't
always absolutely fair, and that element of it is very difficult for
her. If she was playing on a soccer team and the referee seemed to be
making some bad calls against her team, that would infuriate her and
lessen the joy of the competition. My 17 yo would brush it off as
"part of the game."
We didn't PLAY competitive games with Roxana for quite a few years -
just occasionally trying one out and discovering that, yes, she would
still get infuriated by it. She handles it fine now - I think she
still gets some strong feelings, but keeps them to herself.
So - it isn't about being competitive, it is more about being nice
about it.
I'm bothered by your reaction to your son and husband both being
competitive. You worry about it? Is your husband making it worse?
Really - enjoying competition isn't a negative personality trait at all.
Also, competition usually involves a whole lot of cooperation and
collaboration, too. Businesses that compete effectively do so because
there is excellent collaboration and cooperation within the company.
Teamwork!
Stereotypically and maybe genetically or maybe just culturally, women
tend to be less competitive and men more so. Be careful you aren't
falling into a trap of not liking to see some typical masculine traits
appearing in your little boy.
Okay - this is an unschooling list -- SUPPORT his interests.
Find ways for him to be competitive, to revel in his competitive
nature, to do interesting and exciting things.
We had a Destination Imagination team for about 5 years - this was an
absolutely awesome way to both compete AND collaborate. Over the
years, the kids learned something SO valuable - they learned that the
more they paid attention to their own team having a great time, the
more they collaborated happily and harmoniously, the more they
supported each other, the more they valued each others' strengths --
the better they actually did in the competition.
I love noncompetitive games - I have led cooperative games workshops
at homeschooling and unschooling conferences and they are a blast.
But, to be honest, there is STILL an element of competition in all
games - in cooperative games, the group is working together to achieve
some goal - the competition isn't against each other, but against the
obstacles to achieving their common goal.
So - I think these are fun games, for their own sake, but not because
I think there is something wrong with competition.
That said, you can help your son develop ethical competitive
standards. For example, you can help him realize that winning by
cheating isn't at all satisfying. And you'll want to help him develop
good sportsmanship - appreciation of the other competitors' abilities,
kindness to those who aren't as strong a competitor as he is, etc.
You can help him develop a healthy happy competitive nature if you
step back and accept that he has a interest in competition and you,
unschooling parent that you are, stand ready support and expand on
that interest.
Maybe he needs MORE competitive outlet, maybe you're stifling it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> YES! YES! YES! He is VERY competitive! So is my husband. I worry aboutI like competition, too. I'm able to compete hard and enjoy the
> this. Is it something that children are born with, or something my
> husband
> is making worse? I hate when we all go for family hikes, and it
> turns in to
> a race. I always try to point out the beauty around us and the
> reasons I
> like hiking, to balance out the competitive spin he seems to put on
> it.
>
> DS is playing T-ball now. They don't keep score in T-ball. DS keeps
> his
> own score as he plays the games. "Otherwise, it's not fun," he tells
> me!
results - enjoy that momentary thrill of victory and despair of defeat
(the possibility of defeat has to exist or the thrill of victory
won't). But I am mature and able to enjoy that moment and then let it
go quickly.
My 17 yo, Rosie, is like this, too. She's a real competitor - she
plays soccer and she WANTS to win. But, she's a good sport, too. If
she loses, she keeps her perspective and can look at the results
objectively. She's very likely to say, "THAT was a great game," when
her team has just lost, for example. The competition is important to
her - she enjoys it. Winning is the goal, but it isn't like THAT is
the only source of joy.
If you're not a competitive person, you might not understand the fun
and satisfaction of it, but please don't make it into a personality
flaw or a moral failure. <G>
My now-20 year old, Roxana, could not handle competition very well
for most of her life - even now it is maybe just a bit difficult for
her. She has a very very strong sense of fair play. Competition isn't
always absolutely fair, and that element of it is very difficult for
her. If she was playing on a soccer team and the referee seemed to be
making some bad calls against her team, that would infuriate her and
lessen the joy of the competition. My 17 yo would brush it off as
"part of the game."
We didn't PLAY competitive games with Roxana for quite a few years -
just occasionally trying one out and discovering that, yes, she would
still get infuriated by it. She handles it fine now - I think she
still gets some strong feelings, but keeps them to herself.
So - it isn't about being competitive, it is more about being nice
about it.
I'm bothered by your reaction to your son and husband both being
competitive. You worry about it? Is your husband making it worse?
Really - enjoying competition isn't a negative personality trait at all.
Also, competition usually involves a whole lot of cooperation and
collaboration, too. Businesses that compete effectively do so because
there is excellent collaboration and cooperation within the company.
Teamwork!
Stereotypically and maybe genetically or maybe just culturally, women
tend to be less competitive and men more so. Be careful you aren't
falling into a trap of not liking to see some typical masculine traits
appearing in your little boy.
Okay - this is an unschooling list -- SUPPORT his interests.
Find ways for him to be competitive, to revel in his competitive
nature, to do interesting and exciting things.
We had a Destination Imagination team for about 5 years - this was an
absolutely awesome way to both compete AND collaborate. Over the
years, the kids learned something SO valuable - they learned that the
more they paid attention to their own team having a great time, the
more they collaborated happily and harmoniously, the more they
supported each other, the more they valued each others' strengths --
the better they actually did in the competition.
I love noncompetitive games - I have led cooperative games workshops
at homeschooling and unschooling conferences and they are a blast.
But, to be honest, there is STILL an element of competition in all
games - in cooperative games, the group is working together to achieve
some goal - the competition isn't against each other, but against the
obstacles to achieving their common goal.
So - I think these are fun games, for their own sake, but not because
I think there is something wrong with competition.
That said, you can help your son develop ethical competitive
standards. For example, you can help him realize that winning by
cheating isn't at all satisfying. And you'll want to help him develop
good sportsmanship - appreciation of the other competitors' abilities,
kindness to those who aren't as strong a competitor as he is, etc.
You can help him develop a healthy happy competitive nature if you
step back and accept that he has a interest in competition and you,
unschooling parent that you are, stand ready support and expand on
that interest.
Maybe he needs MORE competitive outlet, maybe you're stifling it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
*** So - it isn't about being competitive, it is more about being nice
about it.***
I like this angle. I realize now that being competitive is just a part of
DS's nature. And I'm going to support him. DH is compeitive, and I love
him and he is a great person. I can do that with DS. So instead of
fighting the competition, I'm going to focus more on the being nice part.
Thank you all so much for your support and advice! It's so nice to feel
like there are other's out there on my side!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about it.***
I like this angle. I realize now that being competitive is just a part of
DS's nature. And I'm going to support him. DH is compeitive, and I love
him and he is a great person. I can do that with DS. So instead of
fighting the competition, I'm going to focus more on the being nice part.
Thank you all so much for your support and advice! It's so nice to feel
like there are other's out there on my side!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I've tried to make games more cooperative, and
he really doesn't seem to get the point. He gets motivated by points or
scores or winning a race. It feels mean to try and take that away from
him.-=-
My husband doesn't like cooperative games for the same reason.
Kirby, our oldest, was that way about games when he was little. If
it looked like he wasn't likely to win a board game, he wanted to
quit, and let the rest of us finish without him. It wasn't fun.
Perhaps you should avoid public competition (especially of the
informal kind) until he's more in control of his responses.
What about a martial arts class where he could get scores and
approval for trying to be the best, and be learning and exercising
(and getting some of his energy out) at the same time? Kirby's
karate involvement helped him to be calmer and more focused in all
kinds of situations, and also helped him know *for sure* not to hit
people casually or out of frustration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
he really doesn't seem to get the point. He gets motivated by points or
scores or winning a race. It feels mean to try and take that away from
him.-=-
My husband doesn't like cooperative games for the same reason.
Kirby, our oldest, was that way about games when he was little. If
it looked like he wasn't likely to win a board game, he wanted to
quit, and let the rest of us finish without him. It wasn't fun.
Perhaps you should avoid public competition (especially of the
informal kind) until he's more in control of his responses.
What about a martial arts class where he could get scores and
approval for trying to be the best, and be learning and exercising
(and getting some of his energy out) at the same time? Kirby's
karate involvement helped him to be calmer and more focused in all
kinds of situations, and also helped him know *for sure* not to hit
people casually or out of frustration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], Beth Fleming <momofwc@...>
wrote:
family....5 kids, all very competitive including Dad but not Mom)
that the Dad in the family really has the idea that he plays his
hardest with the kids so that they'll "learn" how to be tough, stick
it out when they're losing, etc. I guess I've seen that it's had
the opposite effect on the kids....very low frustration tolerance
level for losing anything of any kind.
============
My husband was like this with our oldest. I had several talks with
him about it since it was upsetting our child so much. I asked him
to just ease up a bit. Let himself be OK with not having to win
every single time. It wasn't exactly the same as purposely losing.
He just stopped going full tilt all the time.
Alysia
wrote:
>competition.....I think (from what I've seen with the neighbor
>
>
> I wonder if your husband could back off a bit with the
family....5 kids, all very competitive including Dad but not Mom)
that the Dad in the family really has the idea that he plays his
hardest with the kids so that they'll "learn" how to be tough, stick
it out when they're losing, etc. I guess I've seen that it's had
the opposite effect on the kids....very low frustration tolerance
level for losing anything of any kind.
============
My husband was like this with our oldest. I had several talks with
him about it since it was upsetting our child so much. I asked him
to just ease up a bit. Let himself be OK with not having to win
every single time. It wasn't exactly the same as purposely losing.
He just stopped going full tilt all the time.
Alysia
Amanda Horein
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
DD on the otherhand is the complete opposite. DS could make up a game where
they keep points. She could care less how many points she has. She always
encourages DS, telling him, "You win!"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm late on replying, but just had to say that you are blessed not to have
two that love competition. Imagine what it would be like to have two (or
more) like that. Puts it into perspective a bit doesn't it?
--
Amanda
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
http://365daysofsparkle.blogspot.com
My "Working Toward Pro" Photographs
www.hopescreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DD on the otherhand is the complete opposite. DS could make up a game where
they keep points. She could care less how many points she has. She always
encourages DS, telling him, "You win!"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm late on replying, but just had to say that you are blessed not to have
two that love competition. Imagine what it would be like to have two (or
more) like that. Puts it into perspective a bit doesn't it?
--
Amanda
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
http://365daysofsparkle.blogspot.com
My "Working Toward Pro" Photographs
www.hopescreations.com
http://choose2bgr8.deviantart.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]