Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re:connections was: learning to cook
Beth Fleming
I had a wonderful conversation with my daughter 11 a few nights ago before she was going to sleep....my general checking in to see if she's happy with the way things are going, happy with the amount of downtime and activities outside the house, friend issues, etc. She said that she was really happy with our library trip earlier in the evening (she and I and her brother 9). Now she was looking forward to having a few days to lay low with books.....she said that was one of her favorite parts of our lifestyle, having lots of time to think and daydream and put the pieces together. She said for her it was all like a "puzzle". That was her view of the connections that she's making in her own head....fun, a puzzle to be solved! Just thought I'd share.... :)
Peace,
Beth in MA
----- Original Message ----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 9:58:58 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: learning to cook
> I made quiches. One was ham and green chile (for Keith and Marty)-=-Hey, that's cool...I was thinking of you and quiche last night.
> and one was spinach (for Holly).
<g>-=-
That IS cool! And it should suprise me, but it doesn't. :-)
Every connection allows for dozens more. By dozens I probably mean
thousands.
Hundreds of dozens of connections. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I started a new page for this and will announce it in a day or three,
after I have another few to put there. If people don't respond here,
I'll find other things already written. I'll add links to other
pages, too. I'm especially thinking of
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Anyway, this is beautiful:
-=-I had a wonderful conversation with my daughter 11 a few nights
ago before she was going to sleep....my general checking in to see if
she's happy with the way things are going, happy with the amount of
downtime and activities outside the house, friend issues, etc. She
said that she was really happy with our library trip earlier in the
evening (she and I and her brother 9). Now she was looking forward
to having a few days to lay low with books.....she said that was one
of her favorite parts of our lifestyle, having lots of time to think
and daydream and put the pieces together. She said for her it was
all like a "puzzle". That was her view of the connections that she's
making in her own head....fun, a puzzle to be solved! Just thought
I'd share.... :)
Peace,
Beth in MA-=-
And that's why (referring to another thread) it's better to give kids
pieces to use to learn from than it is to tell them "the answers,"
especially since every "answer" that turns out to be wrong erodes faith.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
after I have another few to put there. If people don't respond here,
I'll find other things already written. I'll add links to other
pages, too. I'm especially thinking of
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Anyway, this is beautiful:
-=-I had a wonderful conversation with my daughter 11 a few nights
ago before she was going to sleep....my general checking in to see if
she's happy with the way things are going, happy with the amount of
downtime and activities outside the house, friend issues, etc. She
said that she was really happy with our library trip earlier in the
evening (she and I and her brother 9). Now she was looking forward
to having a few days to lay low with books.....she said that was one
of her favorite parts of our lifestyle, having lots of time to think
and daydream and put the pieces together. She said for her it was
all like a "puzzle". That was her view of the connections that she's
making in her own head....fun, a puzzle to be solved! Just thought
I'd share.... :)
Peace,
Beth in MA-=-
And that's why (referring to another thread) it's better to give kids
pieces to use to learn from than it is to tell them "the answers,"
especially since every "answer" that turns out to be wrong erodes faith.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
There are 2 issues in our home right now with my ds, 15.
He thinks i love or care more about his younger brother (9) than i do him. Sibling rivalry and jealousy are not uncommon it seems. Hows that going in the unschooling households?
Also, he seems really independent at this stage and i want him to continue to be free in his choices. He seems to need me less. But the whole no rules and freedom thing (many years now) seems to be backfiring. He's suggesting that it makes him feel like i dont care if i dont punish him like his friends are.
His 18 yo friend is a big influence. I debated with df about discipline. He feels kids need punishment, rules, chores and even spankings when younger. We were camping at the time. When we were packing up to leave, he and my son decided they would sit on their butts and let me do all the work to prove a point.
Am I being clear?
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He thinks i love or care more about his younger brother (9) than i do him. Sibling rivalry and jealousy are not uncommon it seems. Hows that going in the unschooling households?
Also, he seems really independent at this stage and i want him to continue to be free in his choices. He seems to need me less. But the whole no rules and freedom thing (many years now) seems to be backfiring. He's suggesting that it makes him feel like i dont care if i dont punish him like his friends are.
His 18 yo friend is a big influence. I debated with df about discipline. He feels kids need punishment, rules, chores and even spankings when younger. We were camping at the time. When we were packing up to leave, he and my son decided they would sit on their butts and let me do all the work to prove a point.
Am I being clear?
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 2, 2008, at 1:54 PM, rodneykathy@... wrote:
Have you asked him if he thinks he's "turned out" okay?
Told him that you think he's turned out great?
Said that you think it is pretty sad for someone to think punishment
is a good way to show love?
DO you show him enough attention? I think there is a tendency for
people to back off and show less loving attention to their older boys
- have you been doing that? Kids don't need "equal" attention - maybe
he needs a whole lot more love from you right now. Interesting that
you mention, specifically, how independent he's getting. Is that
important to you? Maybe that feels a little like he's being pushed away.
Don't blame the other kid - he may be putting these ideas in your
son's head, but the ideas are finding fertile ground, so there much be
something going on with him.
Seriously, if another kid told my 16 yo that her parents must not care
about her that much if they don't punish and give chores and stuff,
she'd laugh out loud. So - think - why isn't HE laughing?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> His 18 yo friend is a big influence. I debated with df aboutSort of. <G>
> discipline. He feels kids need punishment, rules, chores and even
> spankings when younger. We were camping at the time. When we were
> packing up to leave, he and my son decided they would sit on their
> butts and let me do all the work to prove a point.
> Am I being clear?
Have you asked him if he thinks he's "turned out" okay?
Told him that you think he's turned out great?
Said that you think it is pretty sad for someone to think punishment
is a good way to show love?
DO you show him enough attention? I think there is a tendency for
people to back off and show less loving attention to their older boys
- have you been doing that? Kids don't need "equal" attention - maybe
he needs a whole lot more love from you right now. Interesting that
you mention, specifically, how independent he's getting. Is that
important to you? Maybe that feels a little like he's being pushed away.
Don't blame the other kid - he may be putting these ideas in your
son's head, but the ideas are finding fertile ground, so there much be
something going on with him.
Seriously, if another kid told my 16 yo that her parents must not care
about her that much if they don't punish and give chores and stuff,
she'd laugh out loud. So - think - why isn't HE laughing?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-------------- Original message from Pamela Sorooshian <pam
<<<Have you asked him if he thinks he's "turned out" okay?
Told him that you think he's turned out great?
Said that you think it is pretty sad for someone to think punishment
is a good way to show love?>>>
No, but i will.
- have you been doing that? Kids don't need "equal" attention - maybe
he needs a whole lot more love from you right now. Interesting that
you mention, specifically, how independent he's getting. Is that
important to you? Maybe that feels a little like he's being pushed away.>>
I have felt lately that HE is pushing away. Maybe we are both misreading each other. I plan to work on that.
Thanks for the feedback.
Kathy
soroosh@...>: --------------
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<Have you asked him if he thinks he's "turned out" okay?
Told him that you think he's turned out great?
Said that you think it is pretty sad for someone to think punishment
is a good way to show love?>>>
No, but i will.
>>DO you show him enough attention? I think there is a tendency forpeople to back off and show less loving attention to their older boys
- have you been doing that? Kids don't need "equal" attention - maybe
he needs a whole lot more love from you right now. Interesting that
you mention, specifically, how independent he's getting. Is that
important to you? Maybe that feels a little like he's being pushed away.>>
I have felt lately that HE is pushing away. Maybe we are both misreading each other. I plan to work on that.
Thanks for the feedback.
Kathy
soroosh@...>: --------------
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe that feels a little like he's being pushed away.>>
-=-I have felt lately that HE is pushing away. Maybe we are both
misreading each other. I plan to work on that.-=-
I think that even in the most ideal surroundings, there is an
instinct to leave. Don't totally resist and deny such instincts.
I found myself surprised to be impatient with teens sometimes when it
seemed they hadn't done anything to trigger exasperation. And I
wasn't exasperated in general; it wasn't a bad moment for me, I just
found myself sometimes being quickly critical of my kids.
Maybe there's an instinct to make it easier for them to leave the nest.
"Civilized" humans have worked hard to extinguish or deny or belittle
the idea that people, as animals, have instincts. If there was no
natural urge to move on, every bird, every bear, every mouse would
still live where it was born.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I have felt lately that HE is pushing away. Maybe we are both
misreading each other. I plan to work on that.-=-
I think that even in the most ideal surroundings, there is an
instinct to leave. Don't totally resist and deny such instincts.
I found myself surprised to be impatient with teens sometimes when it
seemed they hadn't done anything to trigger exasperation. And I
wasn't exasperated in general; it wasn't a bad moment for me, I just
found myself sometimes being quickly critical of my kids.
Maybe there's an instinct to make it easier for them to leave the nest.
"Civilized" humans have worked hard to extinguish or deny or belittle
the idea that people, as animals, have instincts. If there was no
natural urge to move on, every bird, every bear, every mouse would
still live where it was born.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2008, at 7:41 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
years before the child becomes really ready to go. I'm thinking that
some parents feel that urge and then that's it - they start giving off
the "its time for you to get out and be independent" vibes and that
overrides the "I love the young person you are right now" vibes. And,
the kid might be feeling the beginning of those "time for me to be
independent vibes" while, at the same time, that is pretty scary and
he might need extra amounts of the "I love you and am here for you,"
vibes from his mother.
Actually, that paradox HAS been true for both of my older daughters.
One is moved out and very independent, and we did occasionally have
more conflict for a while before she really got moved out on her own.
But, still, at that exact same time that we were both sensing those
push away feelings, there was a lot of clinginess and holding-on
feelings, too. Now I'm feeling the same with Roxana, although I a lot
less intensely, much much more calmly, and that's really a personality
difference in the kids AND the fact that it is the second time through
it for me. And, Rox isn't one to act quickly on a feeling so there
isn't any hurry. When Roya started having those "time to be on my own"
urges - her every nerve ending cried out to totally satisfy that urge
right now! Roxana is happier to satisfy it by being here with us and
moving gradually toward more independence. Well, and it is helping
that she just spent 3 months in France, living on her own, so she got
a LOT of that urge satisfied in a big way and can relax happily at
home, now, even though we all know it won't last forever.
Anyway - I'm not saying to try to deny or belittle the "time to be
independent" feelings. Not at all. I'm saying that at the same time
that those feelings are rising up, don't go too far in stopping with
the "I love you and care about you." After all, this is a 15 year old
- he probably is not going to actually move away and live on his own
for at least a few years - you still have significant time with him at
home. The starting urges for moving on may be there - but I bet
they're there in the way the toddler urges are there to move away from
mom and then run back and touch base before bravely setting out again.
And the child who has that strong sense of support behind him will,
like the toddler, be more able and competent to be independent.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe there's an instinct to make it easier for them to leave theI agree, of course. It sort of comes and goes, though, during those
> nest.
>
> "Civilized" humans have worked hard to extinguish or deny or belittle
> the idea that people, as animals, have instincts. If there was no
> natural urge to move on, every bird, every bear, every mouse would
> still live where it was born.
years before the child becomes really ready to go. I'm thinking that
some parents feel that urge and then that's it - they start giving off
the "its time for you to get out and be independent" vibes and that
overrides the "I love the young person you are right now" vibes. And,
the kid might be feeling the beginning of those "time for me to be
independent vibes" while, at the same time, that is pretty scary and
he might need extra amounts of the "I love you and am here for you,"
vibes from his mother.
Actually, that paradox HAS been true for both of my older daughters.
One is moved out and very independent, and we did occasionally have
more conflict for a while before she really got moved out on her own.
But, still, at that exact same time that we were both sensing those
push away feelings, there was a lot of clinginess and holding-on
feelings, too. Now I'm feeling the same with Roxana, although I a lot
less intensely, much much more calmly, and that's really a personality
difference in the kids AND the fact that it is the second time through
it for me. And, Rox isn't one to act quickly on a feeling so there
isn't any hurry. When Roya started having those "time to be on my own"
urges - her every nerve ending cried out to totally satisfy that urge
right now! Roxana is happier to satisfy it by being here with us and
moving gradually toward more independence. Well, and it is helping
that she just spent 3 months in France, living on her own, so she got
a LOT of that urge satisfied in a big way and can relax happily at
home, now, even though we all know it won't last forever.
Anyway - I'm not saying to try to deny or belittle the "time to be
independent" feelings. Not at all. I'm saying that at the same time
that those feelings are rising up, don't go too far in stopping with
the "I love you and care about you." After all, this is a 15 year old
- he probably is not going to actually move away and live on his own
for at least a few years - you still have significant time with him at
home. The starting urges for moving on may be there - but I bet
they're there in the way the toddler urges are there to move away from
mom and then run back and touch base before bravely setting out again.
And the child who has that strong sense of support behind him will,
like the toddler, be more able and competent to be independent.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The starting urges for moving on may be there - but I bet
they're there in the way the toddler urges are there to move away from
mom and then run back and touch base before bravely setting out again.
-=-And the child who has that strong sense of support behind him will,
like the toddler, be more able and competent to be independent.-=-
The danger I was foreseeing in some of the advice was that if the mom
presses a young man to be closer to his mom--if she pulls him back--
he could react badly.
What seems to have helped here has been me asking the kids to do real
things, that I would ask an adult houseguest or roommate or my
husband to do. Not always, but occasionally. And then thanking them
sincerely, for having done the thing so that I didn't have to.
Sometimes it involves going somewhere or handling details of a social
situation, or even asking Marty to do things he can do because he's
tall and strong.
What doesn't help is me going all sentimental on them and saying I
miss them being toddlers.
When a young man is feeling the house is small and the world is big,
it's no time to start cooing about baby things. It might just fling
him farther.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they're there in the way the toddler urges are there to move away from
mom and then run back and touch base before bravely setting out again.
-=-And the child who has that strong sense of support behind him will,
like the toddler, be more able and competent to be independent.-=-
The danger I was foreseeing in some of the advice was that if the mom
presses a young man to be closer to his mom--if she pulls him back--
he could react badly.
What seems to have helped here has been me asking the kids to do real
things, that I would ask an adult houseguest or roommate or my
husband to do. Not always, but occasionally. And then thanking them
sincerely, for having done the thing so that I didn't have to.
Sometimes it involves going somewhere or handling details of a social
situation, or even asking Marty to do things he can do because he's
tall and strong.
What doesn't help is me going all sentimental on them and saying I
miss them being toddlers.
When a young man is feeling the house is small and the world is big,
it's no time to start cooing about baby things. It might just fling
him farther.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
On Jun 3, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
Zoe will be home next week after eight months in New York. She was
fantastically independent - and called me several times a day. She
found an apartment, a job, went to school - and still needed me to
help her negotiate certain parts of that journey. I just said to her,
"When you get home, let's just sit on the couch and hug all day." And
she replied, "Yes! And make me food."
<ggg>
Paula
> But, still, at that exact same time that we were both sensing thoseI'll second that.
> push away feelings, there was a lot of clinginess and holding-on
> feelings, too.
Zoe will be home next week after eight months in New York. She was
fantastically independent - and called me several times a day. She
found an apartment, a job, went to school - and still needed me to
help her negotiate certain parts of that journey. I just said to her,
"When you get home, let's just sit on the couch and hug all day." And
she replied, "Yes! And make me food."
<ggg>
Paula
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
behavior to that of toddlers, that the more supported they feel, the
more brave they can be, but not saying the mom should talk about
missing his toddlerhood. Not at all.
But as far as sentimentality goes - that might depend on the kid. Some
might actually appreciate a mom expressing out loud the kind of
ambivalent, sweet/sad sentiments that a kid might be feeling a bit of,
too. Maybe not most guys, but maybe some. A little would go a long way
- and for some kids it might be awful. I only have girls, myself, but
watched closely as my sister's boys (now 29 and 26) left home. One of
them is a very "mushy" kind of guy - cuddly, still. The other a bit
more macho-like, I guess. But I remember my sister noting back then
that she felt it was important for her not to stop hugging them,
touching them on the arm when speaking, looking directly into their
eyes, speaking opening about how much she liked them. Since then, I've
noticed that lots of moms seem to withdraw from closeness - physical
and emotional - with their sons when they get big and manly. I'm
thinking maybe they might do it too abruptly - too much withdrawal,
too soon. So - for this particular case - a 15 yo with a 9 yo brother
- maybe the jealousy is about the younger brother still getting all
kinds of loving attention, while the older one is feeling mom is, if
not pushing him away, going along a bit too eagerly with his pushing
away himself.
A 15 yo probably doesn't want the kind of loving attention a 9 yo
wants. He's probably not going to want to sit in mom's lap and cuddle,
while she reads him a story. But my suggestion is to find ways that
are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
something he might like, etc.
Although I didn't have sentimental stuff in mind, I also don't
entirely want to rule it out. I know that my 17 yo daughter still
LOVES to get all mushy and cuddly with me - she'll hug me and kiss me
and say, "You're my favorite mommy - I LOOOOVE you." And I do the same
kind of stuff back. She does seem to be wanting more and more of that
kind of gushy stuff - and I do most definitely have the sense that it
is because she's having those urges toward independence at the same
time. She's doing things like taking the bus places instead of asking
me for rides. And she's been studying for the drivers license test -
so she's making those kinds of moves.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What doesn't help is me going all sentimental on them and saying INo - that's not what I was talking about at all. I was comparing the
> miss them being toddlers.
behavior to that of toddlers, that the more supported they feel, the
more brave they can be, but not saying the mom should talk about
missing his toddlerhood. Not at all.
But as far as sentimentality goes - that might depend on the kid. Some
might actually appreciate a mom expressing out loud the kind of
ambivalent, sweet/sad sentiments that a kid might be feeling a bit of,
too. Maybe not most guys, but maybe some. A little would go a long way
- and for some kids it might be awful. I only have girls, myself, but
watched closely as my sister's boys (now 29 and 26) left home. One of
them is a very "mushy" kind of guy - cuddly, still. The other a bit
more macho-like, I guess. But I remember my sister noting back then
that she felt it was important for her not to stop hugging them,
touching them on the arm when speaking, looking directly into their
eyes, speaking opening about how much she liked them. Since then, I've
noticed that lots of moms seem to withdraw from closeness - physical
and emotional - with their sons when they get big and manly. I'm
thinking maybe they might do it too abruptly - too much withdrawal,
too soon. So - for this particular case - a 15 yo with a 9 yo brother
- maybe the jealousy is about the younger brother still getting all
kinds of loving attention, while the older one is feeling mom is, if
not pushing him away, going along a bit too eagerly with his pushing
away himself.
A 15 yo probably doesn't want the kind of loving attention a 9 yo
wants. He's probably not going to want to sit in mom's lap and cuddle,
while she reads him a story. But my suggestion is to find ways that
are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
something he might like, etc.
Although I didn't have sentimental stuff in mind, I also don't
entirely want to rule it out. I know that my 17 yo daughter still
LOVES to get all mushy and cuddly with me - she'll hug me and kiss me
and say, "You're my favorite mommy - I LOOOOVE you." And I do the same
kind of stuff back. She does seem to be wanting more and more of that
kind of gushy stuff - and I do most definitely have the sense that it
is because she's having those urges toward independence at the same
time. She's doing things like taking the bus places instead of asking
me for rides. And she's been studying for the drivers license test -
so she's making those kinds of moves.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
--------------
<<<So - for this particular case - a 15 yo with a 9 yo brother
- maybe the jealousy is about the younger brother still getting all
kinds of loving attention, while the older one is feeling mom is, if
not pushing him away, going along a bit too eagerly with his pushing
away himself.>>>
Yes, this is what has been on my mind of late. I am uncertain that he wants to be hugged/kissed, so i backed off. I usually kiss him when i go to his room in the am, while he is sleeping. But he is taller than me now and slowly, it seemed that hugging became uncomfortable for him. I want that back.
<<<A 15 yo probably doesn't want the kind of loving attention a 9 yo
wants. He's probably not going to want to sit in mom's lap and cuddle,
while she reads him a story. But my suggestion is to find ways that
are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
something he might like, etc.>>>
Really? I am not feeling that doing/buying can replace the touching/hugging. Is it enough?
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<So - for this particular case - a 15 yo with a 9 yo brother
- maybe the jealousy is about the younger brother still getting all
kinds of loving attention, while the older one is feeling mom is, if
not pushing him away, going along a bit too eagerly with his pushing
away himself.>>>
Yes, this is what has been on my mind of late. I am uncertain that he wants to be hugged/kissed, so i backed off. I usually kiss him when i go to his room in the am, while he is sleeping. But he is taller than me now and slowly, it seemed that hugging became uncomfortable for him. I want that back.
<<<A 15 yo probably doesn't want the kind of loving attention a 9 yo
wants. He's probably not going to want to sit in mom's lap and cuddle,
while she reads him a story. But my suggestion is to find ways that
are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
something he might like, etc.>>>
Really? I am not feeling that doing/buying can replace the touching/hugging. Is it enough?
-pam
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forms, and more.
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balance nutrition,
activity & well-being..
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], rodneykathy@... wrote:
him when i go to his room in the am, while he is sleeping. But he
is taller than me now and slowly, it seemed that hugging became
uncomfortable for him. I want that back.
========
There are other ways to give your teens the touch they need without
hugging. I used to lean over and put my arm around my son while he
was playing games on the computer. He's much taller than me and he
would put his arm on my head as crutch. He's 17 now and hugs and
even kisses me every time he sees me and every time we part. The
kisses on the cheek surprised me because he hadn't really done that
before. He's not living at home now so that's not like 50 times a
day or anything.
Alysia
>that he wants to be hugged/kissed, so i backed off. I usually kiss
>
> --------------
> Yes, this is what has been on my mind of late. I am uncertain
him when i go to his room in the am, while he is sleeping. But he
is taller than me now and slowly, it seemed that hugging became
uncomfortable for him. I want that back.
========
There are other ways to give your teens the touch they need without
hugging. I used to lean over and put my arm around my son while he
was playing games on the computer. He's much taller than me and he
would put his arm on my head as crutch. He's 17 now and hugs and
even kisses me every time he sees me and every time we part. The
kisses on the cheek surprised me because he hadn't really done that
before. He's not living at home now so that's not like 50 times a
day or anything.
Alysia
Margaret
I know that one of my big little brothers likes to have his shoulders
massaged (just for a few minutes when hanging out in the kitchen, not
a full on massage with oils etc). Friendly and loving but also more
manly than hugs and kisses :) My dad, who is very loving but not a
huge hugger (we hug now as hello/goodbye but didn't really when I was
a teenager) has a very sweet way of squeezing my shoulder, often with
an arm around me. I think someone else mentioned touching an arm when
talking. Maybe different kinds of touching would work better if hugs
and kisses aren't really his thing right now but he still needs to
know how much you love him.
massaged (just for a few minutes when hanging out in the kitchen, not
a full on massage with oils etc). Friendly and loving but also more
manly than hugs and kisses :) My dad, who is very loving but not a
huge hugger (we hug now as hello/goodbye but didn't really when I was
a teenager) has a very sweet way of squeezing my shoulder, often with
an arm around me. I think someone else mentioned touching an arm when
talking. Maybe different kinds of touching would work better if hugs
and kisses aren't really his thing right now but he still needs to
know how much you love him.
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 3:59 PM, <rodneykathy@...> wrote:
>
> --------------
>
> <<<So - for this particular case - a 15 yo with a 9 yo brother
> - maybe the jealousy is about the younger brother still getting all
> kinds of loving attention, while the older one is feeling mom is, if
> not pushing him away, going along a bit too eagerly with his pushing
> away himself.>>>
> Yes, this is what has been on my mind of late. I am uncertain that he wants
> to be hugged/kissed, so i backed off. I usually kiss him when i go to his
> room in the am, while he is sleeping. But he is taller than me now and
> slowly, it seemed that hugging became uncomfortable for him. I want that
> back.
>
> <<<A 15 yo probably doesn't want the kind of loving attention a 9 yo
> wants. He's probably not going to want to sit in mom's lap and cuddle,
> while she reads him a story. But my suggestion is to find ways that
> are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
> focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
> look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
> the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
> laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
> something he might like, etc.>>>
> Really? I am not feeling that doing/buying can replace the touching/hugging.
> Is it enough?
>
> -pam
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
Sandra Dodd
-=-But my suggestion is to find ways that
are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
something he might like, etc.-=-
Oh! I hadn't assumed that any of those things would be lacking. I
bought Marty a shirt just this week (Batman, brown-on-brown, used)
and Holly the new Cyndi Lauper CD and I offer them food all the
time. So I was assuming that if with all those things the
relationship was still seeming distant, maybe it was a natural
distancing.
You're right--it's possible the younger kid is getting attention
that's making the older one jealous and the older relationship was
being neglected or changing without ideas for maintaining or
strenghtening it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
are appropriate for that particular 15 yo to continue to give him
focused attention and love. It might be as simple as remembering to
look directly into his eyes when he talks to you. It might be making
the effort to do special things like make his favorite foods or do his
laundry for him (if he usually does it) or buy a shirt or a cd or
something he might like, etc.-=-
Oh! I hadn't assumed that any of those things would be lacking. I
bought Marty a shirt just this week (Batman, brown-on-brown, used)
and Holly the new Cyndi Lauper CD and I offer them food all the
time. So I was assuming that if with all those things the
relationship was still seeming distant, maybe it was a natural
distancing.
You're right--it's possible the younger kid is getting attention
that's making the older one jealous and the older relationship was
being neglected or changing without ideas for maintaining or
strenghtening it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Really? I am not feeling that doing/buying can replace the
touching/hugging. Is it enough?-=-
Don't think of it as a substitution of one thing for another. Think
principles over rules. In any one moment, doing the more attentive
or generous or considerate thing might be a way to see it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
touching/hugging. Is it enough?-=-
Don't think of it as a substitution of one thing for another. Think
principles over rules. In any one moment, doing the more attentive
or generous or considerate thing might be a way to see it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My dad, who is very loving but not a
huge hugger (we hug now as hello/goodbye but didn't really when I was
a teenager) has a very sweet way of squeezing my shoulder, often with
an arm around me. -=-
Today I was sitting talking to Keith and Marty passed through the
room. Without interrupting the other exchange, I leaned over so
Marty would bump my head as he passed, and it was friendly and touch
but neither hug nor handshake. <g>
The other night I just touched his hair and said "I like your hair."
Little touches count.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
huge hugger (we hug now as hello/goodbye but didn't really when I was
a teenager) has a very sweet way of squeezing my shoulder, often with
an arm around me. -=-
Today I was sitting talking to Keith and Marty passed through the
room. Without interrupting the other exchange, I leaned over so
Marty would bump my head as he passed, and it was friendly and touch
but neither hug nor handshake. <g>
The other night I just touched his hair and said "I like your hair."
Little touches count.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 3, 2008, at 3:59 PM, rodneykathy@... wrote:
buying - it is showing that you're thinking about him. It isn't so
much what you do for them as the fact that you want to do things for
them.
I bought my 23 yo a swimsuit the other day. I knew it would fit
because she'd bought herself one almost like it at the same place. She
swims a lot and the pool chemicals wear out suits and I happened to
see this one on sale and thought of her. It is the "thought of her"
part that matters. She'll be happy to have the extra suit, but it'll
be the fact that I was thinking about her, that I was aware of her
needs, that really matters.
I get your concern - substituting buying stuff for them for showing
love? It is what neglectful parents do. There is no substitute for
being willing to spend your own time with your child - but when they
are getting to be older teens and young adults and you're not spending
as much time with them, it is awfully nice for them to know that
you're still thinking about them.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Really? I am not feeling that doing/buying can replace the touching/Maybe not "replace." but supplement? It isn't the "stuff" of the
> hugging. Is it enough?
buying - it is showing that you're thinking about him. It isn't so
much what you do for them as the fact that you want to do things for
them.
I bought my 23 yo a swimsuit the other day. I knew it would fit
because she'd bought herself one almost like it at the same place. She
swims a lot and the pool chemicals wear out suits and I happened to
see this one on sale and thought of her. It is the "thought of her"
part that matters. She'll be happy to have the extra suit, but it'll
be the fact that I was thinking about her, that I was aware of her
needs, that really matters.
I get your concern - substituting buying stuff for them for showing
love? It is what neglectful parents do. There is no substitute for
being willing to spend your own time with your child - but when they
are getting to be older teens and young adults and you're not spending
as much time with them, it is awfully nice for them to know that
you're still thinking about them.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I am reading the book Parent/Teen Breakthrough and it is so helpful and clearly written. But here's one point that really threw me.
"Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their kids turn out. And a handful of parents have a talent for turning messed up kids into healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range, whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their kids turn out. And a handful of parents have a talent for turning messed up kids into healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range, whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
Zac (turning 14 in 20 days) and I do that a lot - leaning out/over to bump/touch in passing or even walking side by side we'll bump shoulders in playfulness. We just touch in various light hearted ways - like putting our feet on each other while we are reading or we spontaneously hit each other with pillows.
Though he is going through a huge hug stage right now too.
Yesterday he walked up behind me and rubbed my shoulders asking "does that feel good" as soon as I said yes he stopped ;)
He is way taller than I am but he will still snuggle up to me on the couch to watch TV together. Last night he came into the bedroom to say goodnight and gave me a big hug and said see you when you get home from work tomorrow.
Lisa W.
Without interrupting the other exchange, I leaned over so
Marty would bump my head as he passed, and it was friendly and touch
but neither hug nor handshake. <g>
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Though he is going through a huge hug stage right now too.
Yesterday he walked up behind me and rubbed my shoulders asking "does that feel good" as soon as I said yes he stopped ;)
He is way taller than I am but he will still snuggle up to me on the couch to watch TV together. Last night he came into the bedroom to say goodnight and gave me a big hug and said see you when you get home from work tomorrow.
Lisa W.
Without interrupting the other exchange, I leaned over so
Marty would bump my head as he passed, and it was friendly and touch
but neither hug nor handshake. <g>
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:21 AM, Ed Wendell wrote:
We do the same - just touch in some way as we pass each other. We have
a couch that has a walkway behind it - the kids are very often sitting
there with their laptops and I just pat the tops of their heads as I
walk by. They do the same to me. Just last night, I plopped down on
the other end of the couch from one of my daughters and snuggled my
feet up against her. She patted them.
I've reminded my husband to keep up the loving touches and eye-contact
and all that, as the girls hit their teens. Again, I think it is
natural that a dad changes his ways of being physical when his
daughters become more womanly, but not to stop altogether. In fact,
maybe they need more of it. Don't sit them on your lap and kiss them
and sort of "handle them" the same way as when they were toddlers. But
don't just suddenly be hands-off, either. That hurts.
-Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Zac (turning 14 in 20 days) and I do that a lot - leaning out/overYes. This is a perfect example!
> to bump/touch in passing or even walking side by side we'll bump
> shoulders in playfulness. We just touch in various light hearted
> ways - like putting our feet on each other while we are reading or
> we spontaneously hit each other with pillows.
We do the same - just touch in some way as we pass each other. We have
a couch that has a walkway behind it - the kids are very often sitting
there with their laptops and I just pat the tops of their heads as I
walk by. They do the same to me. Just last night, I plopped down on
the other end of the couch from one of my daughters and snuggled my
feet up against her. She patted them.
I've reminded my husband to keep up the loving touches and eye-contact
and all that, as the girls hit their teens. Again, I think it is
natural that a dad changes his ways of being physical when his
daughters become more womanly, but not to stop altogether. In fact,
maybe they need more of it. Don't sit them on your lap and kiss them
and sort of "handle them" the same way as when they were toddlers. But
don't just suddenly be hands-off, either. That hurts.
-Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
I'm guessing that means: "It's not your fault. Your kid is just bad
and it's not your fault that they are rebelling etc."
and it's not your fault that they are rebelling etc."
On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 4:42 AM, <rodneykathy@...> wrote:
> I am reading the book Parent/Teen Breakthrough and it is so helpful and
> clearly written. But here's one point that really threw me.
>
> "Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their kids turn
> out. And a handful of parents have a talent for turning messed up kids into
> healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more common are the 95% of parents in
> the vast middle range, whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little
> impact on how happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
>
> What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?
>
> kathy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:42 AM, rodneykathy@... wrote:
Maybe surprising to her? First of all, "little impact" doesn't mean
"no impact" For example, just a little more likely for children to be
depressed? Is that okay?
But, I think she's wrong. I think her conclusion is based on
statistical research and what the research REALLY shows is that it is
very difficult to nail down differences in parenting other than the
extremes.
The way the studies work is that they take a large group of parents
and kids and they either observe them directly (in natural settings or
in labs) and/or they "survey" them - ask them lots of questions.
They come up with parenting style categories - usually authoritarian,
authoritative, indulgent, and neglectful. They might have some
additional subcategories like "demanding" and "responsive.' So you
have each parent identified this way - they might be indulgent and
responsive or authoritative and responsive, etc.
Then they do the same with the kids. They come up with a bunch of
categories (i.e., school outcomes, social interaction competence,
happiness/depression) - they give each kid a score in each category.
They CHOOSE the categories, they define them and decide what gets a
kid a high score and what gives a low score.
Then they use snazzy statistical techniques to find correlations
between the parental categories and the kid categories.
Please notice that it ALL depends on how they set up the studies in
the first place. The way they are typically set up, the vast majority
of parents are authoritative - and within that very large group, they
don't find parenting matters much. That's because they're lumping
together way too many different kinds of parenting - because the
differences are in hard-to-nail-down, hard-to-observe, hard-to-ask-the-
right-question-about, aspects of parenting. Do they (are they even
able to) look at how supportive a parent is, how in-tune with a child,
how thoughtful of children's needs, how good a parent is in helping a
child learn to navigate the world, and on and on. And, the categories
for the kids are likely to be completely ignoring things that are very
important to some of us. They ask, for example, kids and parents (and
sometimes teachers) to rate kids on their "competency" levels - how
well do they follow instructions, how well do they behave in class,
how well do they get along with peers. And "problems in school?" Well,
yeah, reading later is a big problem. Do we care? Not if they don't GO
to school!
Turns out, within that big authoritative group, there isn't much
correlation found between parenting behaviors and child-outcomes. Not
actually surprising at all. It is a statistical muddle, not a real-
life parenting muddle.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way theirInteresting, isn't it? I thought a lot about that when I first read it.
> kids turn out. And a handful of parents have a talent for turning
> messed up kids into healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more
> common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range, whose
> parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how happy or
> successful their kids turn out to be."
>
> What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?
Maybe surprising to her? First of all, "little impact" doesn't mean
"no impact" For example, just a little more likely for children to be
depressed? Is that okay?
But, I think she's wrong. I think her conclusion is based on
statistical research and what the research REALLY shows is that it is
very difficult to nail down differences in parenting other than the
extremes.
The way the studies work is that they take a large group of parents
and kids and they either observe them directly (in natural settings or
in labs) and/or they "survey" them - ask them lots of questions.
They come up with parenting style categories - usually authoritarian,
authoritative, indulgent, and neglectful. They might have some
additional subcategories like "demanding" and "responsive.' So you
have each parent identified this way - they might be indulgent and
responsive or authoritative and responsive, etc.
Then they do the same with the kids. They come up with a bunch of
categories (i.e., school outcomes, social interaction competence,
happiness/depression) - they give each kid a score in each category.
They CHOOSE the categories, they define them and decide what gets a
kid a high score and what gives a low score.
Then they use snazzy statistical techniques to find correlations
between the parental categories and the kid categories.
Please notice that it ALL depends on how they set up the studies in
the first place. The way they are typically set up, the vast majority
of parents are authoritative - and within that very large group, they
don't find parenting matters much. That's because they're lumping
together way too many different kinds of parenting - because the
differences are in hard-to-nail-down, hard-to-observe, hard-to-ask-the-
right-question-about, aspects of parenting. Do they (are they even
able to) look at how supportive a parent is, how in-tune with a child,
how thoughtful of children's needs, how good a parent is in helping a
child learn to navigate the world, and on and on. And, the categories
for the kids are likely to be completely ignoring things that are very
important to some of us. They ask, for example, kids and parents (and
sometimes teachers) to rate kids on their "competency" levels - how
well do they follow instructions, how well do they behave in class,
how well do they get along with peers. And "problems in school?" Well,
yeah, reading later is a big problem. Do we care? Not if they don't GO
to school!
Turns out, within that big authoritative group, there isn't much
correlation found between parenting behaviors and child-outcomes. Not
actually surprising at all. It is a statistical muddle, not a real-
life parenting muddle.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?-=-
I guess that's a rhetorical question, but I don't like it. I'm not
responsible for every book in the world. Read what you want, but
please be more careful with your rhetorical questions. You can find
all KINDS of things "out there" saying what we're doing is wrong-
headed (or not worth much). I don't think you meant to stab me in
the feelings. <g>
-=-"Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their
kids turn out."
So even if we're doing nothing more than making sure we're not really
bad parents, the discussion is worth having.
-=-And a handful of parents have a talent for turning messed up kids
into healthy ones. But these are rare.-=-
I'm guessing he's talking about foster or adoptive parents there. Or
parents who help their kids out following traumatic events or
something; I don't know. But there are rare humans who can help
messed up people turn *themselves* into healthy ones.
-=-Much more common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range,
whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how
happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
So what's the definition of "happy"? Some parents are perfectly
happy spanking and grounding and shaming their kids. And if that by
itself doesn't make them happy, they go and tell their friends all
about it and the parents say "GOOD for you; those brats..." and they
all laugh. I've seen it; I've heard it. I saw it as a kid, and I've
seen it as an adult.
"Happy and successful" is probably measured in ways that put 95% of
the people in that range. Not homeless, not in prison, not
hospitalized for depression...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I guess that's a rhetorical question, but I don't like it. I'm not
responsible for every book in the world. Read what you want, but
please be more careful with your rhetorical questions. You can find
all KINDS of things "out there" saying what we're doing is wrong-
headed (or not worth much). I don't think you meant to stab me in
the feelings. <g>
-=-"Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their
kids turn out."
So even if we're doing nothing more than making sure we're not really
bad parents, the discussion is worth having.
-=-And a handful of parents have a talent for turning messed up kids
into healthy ones. But these are rare.-=-
I'm guessing he's talking about foster or adoptive parents there. Or
parents who help their kids out following traumatic events or
something; I don't know. But there are rare humans who can help
messed up people turn *themselves* into healthy ones.
-=-Much more common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range,
whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how
happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
So what's the definition of "happy"? Some parents are perfectly
happy spanking and grounding and shaming their kids. And if that by
itself doesn't make them happy, they go and tell their friends all
about it and the parents say "GOOD for you; those brats..." and they
all laugh. I've seen it; I've heard it. I saw it as a kid, and I've
seen it as an adult.
"Happy and successful" is probably measured in ways that put 95% of
the people in that range. Not homeless, not in prison, not
hospitalized for depression...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
=-What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?-=-
I guess that's a rhetorical question, but I don't like it. I'm not
responsible for every book in the world. Read what you want, but
please be more careful with your rhetorical questions. You can find
all KINDS of things "out there" saying what we're doing is wrong-
headed (or not worth much). I don't think you meant to stab me in
the feelings. <g>
I wasn't asking anyone to be responsible for what someone else wrote. I
just put it out there for discussion because that one part really threw me.
The rest made a lot of sense to me and echoed a lot of what I read here. I
saw the book mentioned on an unschooling group.
I don't think it was rhetorical, cause the answer wasn't obvious to me. I
was wondering why the author was even writing the book if it wont have any
effect?
-=-Much more common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range,
whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how
happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
So what's the definition of "happy"?
Yeah, they could just mean well behaved, or following the path their parents
wanted for them.
Kathy
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I guess that's a rhetorical question, but I don't like it. I'm not
responsible for every book in the world. Read what you want, but
please be more careful with your rhetorical questions. You can find
all KINDS of things "out there" saying what we're doing is wrong-
headed (or not worth much). I don't think you meant to stab me in
the feelings. <g>
I wasn't asking anyone to be responsible for what someone else wrote. I
just put it out there for discussion because that one part really threw me.
The rest made a lot of sense to me and echoed a lot of what I read here. I
saw the book mentioned on an unschooling group.
I don't think it was rhetorical, cause the answer wasn't obvious to me. I
was wondering why the author was even writing the book if it wont have any
effect?
-=-Much more common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range,
whose parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how
happy or successful their kids turn out to be."
So what's the definition of "happy"?
Yeah, they could just mean well behaved, or following the path their parents
wanted for them.
Kathy
_,_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think it was rhetorical, cause the answer wasn't obvious
to me. I
was wondering why the author was even writing the book if it wont
have any
effect?-=-
Well that makes a difference. Asking why he wrote a book if he
believed those statistics is different from "I read statistics
somewhere, so why is there an AlwaysLearning list."
But as to the question above, it's like a video Kirby watched that he
thought I might like. December 21, 2012, History's Final Day.
Okay...
If someone thinks the world will end on a certain day, is making a
movie about it the way to go? Several outcomes are possible, I guess.
1, history ends that day and nobody will be alive to to say "Oh, you
were right!"
or
2, history doesn't end that day, the filmmaker is a dork, and the
whole project was a massive waste of time and energy.
But as to children, anything that will make the rest of today more
pleasant is worth having, even if the world is ending in 2012, or
tomorrow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to me. I
was wondering why the author was even writing the book if it wont
have any
effect?-=-
Well that makes a difference. Asking why he wrote a book if he
believed those statistics is different from "I read statistics
somewhere, so why is there an AlwaysLearning list."
But as to the question above, it's like a video Kirby watched that he
thought I might like. December 21, 2012, History's Final Day.
Okay...
If someone thinks the world will end on a certain day, is making a
movie about it the way to go? Several outcomes are possible, I guess.
1, history ends that day and nobody will be alive to to say "Oh, you
were right!"
or
2, history doesn't end that day, the filmmaker is a dork, and the
whole project was a massive waste of time and energy.
But as to children, anything that will make the rest of today more
pleasant is worth having, even if the world is ending in 2012, or
tomorrow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cathyandgarth
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
finger on it, but it made me think of something I read on another
list.
I wanted to post this earlier, but I was waiting for permission.
Meredith posted this on the AlwaysUnschooled list and I think that it
is so marvelous (I have it on my fridge).
"Radical unschooling is Not about Raising our kids.
Its about living with our children Right Now. Our children are not
unfinished products, future activists, or stooges to The Man, our
kids are Who They Are right now. That's where unschooling happens.
If you are thinking in terms of Raising your children you aren't
looking at the human beings living in your home, you are looking at
future adults - and those are pure imagination on your part.
Is it possible to live with our kids Right Now *and* hold the whole
world in our minds at the same time? Yes. Its challenging, but its
possible.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)"
Having finished reading the thread, I realize that the OP was sort of
asking a question of the author. But, for what it's worth, I love
the simple reminder in Meredith's words.
Cathy
>It struck a strange chord with me as well, I couldn't quite put my
> -=-What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?-=-
>
> I guess that's a rhetorical question, but I don't like it.
finger on it, but it made me think of something I read on another
list.
I wanted to post this earlier, but I was waiting for permission.
Meredith posted this on the AlwaysUnschooled list and I think that it
is so marvelous (I have it on my fridge).
"Radical unschooling is Not about Raising our kids.
Its about living with our children Right Now. Our children are not
unfinished products, future activists, or stooges to The Man, our
kids are Who They Are right now. That's where unschooling happens.
If you are thinking in terms of Raising your children you aren't
looking at the human beings living in your home, you are looking at
future adults - and those are pure imagination on your part.
Is it possible to live with our kids Right Now *and* hold the whole
world in our minds at the same time? Yes. Its challenging, but its
possible.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)"
Having finished reading the thread, I realize that the OP was sort of
asking a question of the author. But, for what it's worth, I love
the simple reminder in Meredith's words.
Cathy
keetry
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
they'd bounce.
Alysia
>hair."
> The other night I just touched his hair and said "I like your
> Little touches count.When my son had long ringlets I used to sit and pull them lightly so
they'd bounce.
Alysia
keetry
--- In [email protected], rodneykathy@... wrote:
me.
messed up kids into healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more
common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range, whose
parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how happy or
successful their kids turn out to be."
over how they "turn out". It's about having a loving, joyful
relationship with them now. At least that way I won't mess them up
(I hope).
Alysia
>helpful and clearly written. But here's one point that really threw
> I am reading the book Parent/Teen Breakthrough and it is so
me.
>kids turn out. And a handful of parents have a talent for turning
> "Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their
messed up kids into healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more
common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range, whose
parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how happy or
successful their kids turn out to be."
>For me, it's not about raising kids. I don't really have any control
> What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?
>
> kathy
over how they "turn out". It's about having a loving, joyful
relationship with them now. At least that way I won't mess them up
(I hope).
Alysia
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
And "little impact" can also mean "little obvious impact".
I'm sure the idea that, in nearly all cases, our parenting doesn't
affect the development of our children will be music to the ears of
the lazy and incompetent!
I think her conclusion is based on
any truly meaningful way.
oxymoron if ever there was one) is a form of self-fulfilling prophecy.
Researchers into human behaviour see what they want to see based on
their personal experiences in the world and, though they may use the
scientific method as a template, they create the details of their
research criteria according to what they set out to find. Not
necessarily at a conscious level or deliberately (although that does
happen), but because they're humans too and objectivity is an
impossibility when humans study the behaviour of other humans.
I'd be interested to know how many parents were involved in the
research that produced the observation made by the author of the book.
I remember having a pop at a social 'scientist' one time for
publishing a sweeping pronouncement on human behaviour generally that
was totally at odds with my real life experience and turned out to be
based on her study of the behaviour of just 19 people.
That kind of nonsense isn't rare. Another time, I had a social
scientist tell me that her research had shown mothers who have a full
time job outside the home spend as much time with their children over
the course of a week as mothers who stay at home full time. That was
based on a study of just a few hundred mothers with no indication
given as to what the selection process was or what the research
criteria were. I told her her results seemed to me like something that
had come out of the back end of a certain farm animal. Naughty me. So
petulant and rude at times.
But, the fact is, I'm totally cynical about social 'science' (which it
isn't) and statistics generally. They can be used to 'prove' anything
you want to prove.
Then there was that classic headline in a national newspaper here a
few years ago, "75% of Australians don't want Charles as the next King
of Australia" (the Queen of England is still, on paper, the Head of
State of Australia, and the belief is that Charles should be bypassed
when the time comes in favour of Prince William because he's more in
touch with 'the people' in today's world). So, "75% of Australians" is
about 15 million people, right? Hmm... I didn't see any notification
of a referendum in the media. No. It's 75% of the little more than 300
Australians living in the same part of the country as the research
company who were asked a predesignated question and were deemed, we
know not how, to be "statistically representative" of the entire
population.
As Ebeneezer Scrooge would say, "Humbug".
Bob
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>So do I.
>
> On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:42 AM, rodneykathy@... wrote:
>
> > "Really bad parents can have really bad effects on the way their
> > kids turn out. And a handful of parents have a talent for turning
> > messed up kids into healthy ones. But these are rare. Much more
> > common are the 95% of parents in the vast middle range, whose
> > parenting techniques have surprisingly little impact on how happy or
> > successful their kids turn out to be."
> >
> > What? Why are we even here discussing how to raise our kids?
>
> Interesting, isn't it? I thought a lot about that when I first read it.
>
> Maybe surprising to her? First of all, "little impact" doesn't mean
> "no impact" For example, just a little more likely for children to be
> depressed? Is that okay?
>
> But, I think she's wrong.
And "little impact" can also mean "little obvious impact".
I'm sure the idea that, in nearly all cases, our parenting doesn't
affect the development of our children will be music to the ears of
the lazy and incompetent!
I think her conclusion is based on
> statistical research and what the research REALLY shows is that it isAll subjective concepts to begin with and impossible to quantify in
> very difficult to nail down differences in parenting other than the
> extremes.
>
> The way the studies work is that they take a large group of parents
> and kids and they either observe them directly (in natural settings or
> in labs) and/or they "survey" them - ask them lots of questions.
>
> They come up with parenting style categories - usually authoritarian,
> authoritative, indulgent, and neglectful. They might have some
> additional subcategories like "demanding" and "responsive.' So you
> have each parent identified this way - they might be indulgent and
> responsive or authoritative and responsive, etc.
any truly meaningful way.
>Perceived patterns, like inkblot butterflies.
> Then they do the same with the kids. They come up with a bunch of
> categories (i.e., school outcomes, social interaction competence,
> happiness/depression) - they give each kid a score in each category.
> They CHOOSE the categories, they define them and decide what gets a
> kid a high score and what gives a low score.
>
> Then they use snazzy statistical techniques to find correlations
> between the parental categories and the kid categories.
>IMNSHO, much of what's generally referred to as Social Science (an
> Please notice that it ALL depends on how they set up the studies in
> the first place. The way they are typically set up, the vast majority
> of parents are authoritative - and within that very large group, they
> don't find parenting matters much. That's because they're lumping
> together way too many different kinds of parenting - because the
> differences are in hard-to-nail-down, hard-to-observe, hard-to-ask-the-
> right-question-about, aspects of parenting. Do they (are they even
> able to) look at how supportive a parent is, how in-tune with a child,
> how thoughtful of children's needs, how good a parent is in helping a
> child learn to navigate the world, and on and on. And, the categories
> for the kids are likely to be completely ignoring things that are very
> important to some of us. They ask, for example, kids and parents (and
> sometimes teachers) to rate kids on their "competency" levels - how
> well do they follow instructions, how well do they behave in class,
> how well do they get along with peers. And "problems in school?" Well,
> yeah, reading later is a big problem. Do we care? Not if they don't GO
> to school!
>
> Turns out, within that big authoritative group, there isn't much
> correlation found between parenting behaviors and child-outcomes. Not
> actually surprising at all. It is a statistical muddle, not a real-
> life parenting muddle.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
oxymoron if ever there was one) is a form of self-fulfilling prophecy.
Researchers into human behaviour see what they want to see based on
their personal experiences in the world and, though they may use the
scientific method as a template, they create the details of their
research criteria according to what they set out to find. Not
necessarily at a conscious level or deliberately (although that does
happen), but because they're humans too and objectivity is an
impossibility when humans study the behaviour of other humans.
I'd be interested to know how many parents were involved in the
research that produced the observation made by the author of the book.
I remember having a pop at a social 'scientist' one time for
publishing a sweeping pronouncement on human behaviour generally that
was totally at odds with my real life experience and turned out to be
based on her study of the behaviour of just 19 people.
That kind of nonsense isn't rare. Another time, I had a social
scientist tell me that her research had shown mothers who have a full
time job outside the home spend as much time with their children over
the course of a week as mothers who stay at home full time. That was
based on a study of just a few hundred mothers with no indication
given as to what the selection process was or what the research
criteria were. I told her her results seemed to me like something that
had come out of the back end of a certain farm animal. Naughty me. So
petulant and rude at times.
But, the fact is, I'm totally cynical about social 'science' (which it
isn't) and statistics generally. They can be used to 'prove' anything
you want to prove.
Then there was that classic headline in a national newspaper here a
few years ago, "75% of Australians don't want Charles as the next King
of Australia" (the Queen of England is still, on paper, the Head of
State of Australia, and the belief is that Charles should be bypassed
when the time comes in favour of Prince William because he's more in
touch with 'the people' in today's world). So, "75% of Australians" is
about 15 million people, right? Hmm... I didn't see any notification
of a referendum in the media. No. It's 75% of the little more than 300
Australians living in the same part of the country as the research
company who were asked a predesignated question and were deemed, we
know not how, to be "statistically representative" of the entire
population.
As Ebeneezer Scrooge would say, "Humbug".
Bob