Real Horseshit
Joanna Murphy
My son saw a good friend recently and this boy filled him in on all of the recent events of
his life--a new girlfriend, and many other agenda items. The sad thing about this, and the
reason my son then shared them with me, is that these life events are all secrets from his
parents.
This boy is homeschooled by what would appear to be fairly progressive parents. They
lived a very free life until kids turned 12, and then all of a sudden there were part time
classes at the charter school with homework requirements, etc. And there were the rules:
not allowed to have a girlfriend until a certain age, and many others that I don't even know
the details of.
So he breaks the rules and just doesn't tell them. They did find out about the last
girlfriend, and they made him break up with her. But now there's a new one.
His parents mistakenly believe that they have a good and trusting relationship. They have
"good" kids and it's their duty to guide their kids and set the boundaries that will create a
successful life.
This is what I call "horseshit."
They are deluded. Here was my son, sharing the most intimate conversations he has with
me, and we've had conversations about much more intimate stuff than this, but he actually
does trust me. He thanked me for the way we live our life, and brought up some
examples from when he was younger about how he didn't feel he could trust me then, but
that that's all gone and he's so grateful to be able to just talk about anything. (And, fyi, he
said I could talk about this as long as everything was very anonymous--'cause he could
see I was a little fired up!) I just thought about how sad the whole thing was for their
family in at least three ways:
1. That there is a bigger and bigger gap all the time in his relationship with his parents,
and they are getting farther and farther away from knowing their son.
2. That the boy is completely losing out on his parents as a source of wisdom that he can
actually access and benefit from. He's now going to be in the position that I remember so
clearly from my own teenagehood of trying to figure it all out for himself, with only the
help of other teenagers to rely on.
3. The rules DON'T WORK. He, like every intelligent child ever to come before him, will
find ways around them if he really wants to. And those ways will involve deception and
maybe just the hint of danger. He actually admitted to not even liking the girlfriend all
that much, but it was fun just to have one, so he was with her anyway. My son thought
that was just all wrong and didn't "get it."
The parents don't/can't see it, but they are driving their son away from them.
Joanna
his life--a new girlfriend, and many other agenda items. The sad thing about this, and the
reason my son then shared them with me, is that these life events are all secrets from his
parents.
This boy is homeschooled by what would appear to be fairly progressive parents. They
lived a very free life until kids turned 12, and then all of a sudden there were part time
classes at the charter school with homework requirements, etc. And there were the rules:
not allowed to have a girlfriend until a certain age, and many others that I don't even know
the details of.
So he breaks the rules and just doesn't tell them. They did find out about the last
girlfriend, and they made him break up with her. But now there's a new one.
His parents mistakenly believe that they have a good and trusting relationship. They have
"good" kids and it's their duty to guide their kids and set the boundaries that will create a
successful life.
This is what I call "horseshit."
They are deluded. Here was my son, sharing the most intimate conversations he has with
me, and we've had conversations about much more intimate stuff than this, but he actually
does trust me. He thanked me for the way we live our life, and brought up some
examples from when he was younger about how he didn't feel he could trust me then, but
that that's all gone and he's so grateful to be able to just talk about anything. (And, fyi, he
said I could talk about this as long as everything was very anonymous--'cause he could
see I was a little fired up!) I just thought about how sad the whole thing was for their
family in at least three ways:
1. That there is a bigger and bigger gap all the time in his relationship with his parents,
and they are getting farther and farther away from knowing their son.
2. That the boy is completely losing out on his parents as a source of wisdom that he can
actually access and benefit from. He's now going to be in the position that I remember so
clearly from my own teenagehood of trying to figure it all out for himself, with only the
help of other teenagers to rely on.
3. The rules DON'T WORK. He, like every intelligent child ever to come before him, will
find ways around them if he really wants to. And those ways will involve deception and
maybe just the hint of danger. He actually admitted to not even liking the girlfriend all
that much, but it was fun just to have one, so he was with her anyway. My son thought
that was just all wrong and didn't "get it."
The parents don't/can't see it, but they are driving their son away from them.
Joanna
Joanna Murphy
O.K., now that I'm not as fired up anymore, I'm sorry I posted that as the title!
I still feel strongly, but I know my son wouldn't have approved of the swearing. ;-)
Joanna
I still feel strongly, but I know my son wouldn't have approved of the swearing. ;-)
Joanna
Cameron Parham
This post, complete with its pithy title, sure spoke to me. I am mainly of the position that routine swearing is boring and uncreative but in those for whom it's not routine it can make a statement! Horesedoo is OK but just doesn't have the earthy oomph this needs! Ha, ha,ha....Cameron P
----- Original Message ----
From: Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 1:29:20 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Real Horsedoo
O.K., now that I'm not as fired up anymore, I'm sorry I posted that as the title!
I still feel strongly, but I know my son wouldn't have approved of the swearing. ;-)
Joanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 1:29:20 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Real Horsedoo
O.K., now that I'm not as fired up anymore, I'm sorry I posted that as the title!
I still feel strongly, but I know my son wouldn't have approved of the swearing. ;-)
Joanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I am mainly of the position that routine swearing is boring and
uncreative but in those for whom it's not routine it can make a
statement! ~~
And I'm of the mindset that if you can't cuss like a sailor, you're
too uptight.:) It feels really good to say F*** loudly sometimes. Try it!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
uncreative but in those for whom it's not routine it can make a
statement! ~~
And I'm of the mindset that if you can't cuss like a sailor, you're
too uptight.:) It feels really good to say F*** loudly sometimes. Try it!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Wendy S.
> ~~I am mainly of the position that routine swearing is boring andWell then our family isn't uptight at all! LOL Shelby can cuss with
> uncreative but in those for whom it's not routine it can make a
> statement! ~~
>
> And I'm of the mindset that if you can't cuss like a sailor, you're
> too uptight.:) It feels really good to say F*** loudly sometimes.
> Try it!
the best of them. :-)
Wendy S. in GA
Mom to Shelby, Age 9
http://ourjourneyfantastic.blogspot.com/
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving
the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." -
Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
Vonnegut said something about swearing that resonated with me:
(roughly) profanity gives people an excuse not to listen to you.
One might not care if the sort of people who would get offended don't
listen, but I thought it was a good point. It can get in the way of
people listening to what you are really saying. Not listening will
also probably translate to misunderstanding your point which I find
incredibly frustrating. It is easy to say that it is their problem,
but if you are trying to communicate effectively with them then it is
your problem too. I used to swear a lot more than I do now and that
had a lot to do with it.
That said, I thought that in 'horseshit' was a far better subject than
'horsedoo' and was much clearer and more effective communication to
this audience... but if it was used on the original blog it probably
would get people even more defensive and even less likely to listen to
the real point (even though it was used there originally).
(roughly) profanity gives people an excuse not to listen to you.
One might not care if the sort of people who would get offended don't
listen, but I thought it was a good point. It can get in the way of
people listening to what you are really saying. Not listening will
also probably translate to misunderstanding your point which I find
incredibly frustrating. It is easy to say that it is their problem,
but if you are trying to communicate effectively with them then it is
your problem too. I used to swear a lot more than I do now and that
had a lot to do with it.
That said, I thought that in 'horseshit' was a far better subject than
'horsedoo' and was much clearer and more effective communication to
this audience... but if it was used on the original blog it probably
would get people even more defensive and even less likely to listen to
the real point (even though it was used there originally).
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> ~~I am mainly of the position that routine swearing is boring and
>
> uncreative but in those for whom it's not routine it can make a
> statement! ~~
>
> And I'm of the mindset that if you can't cuss like a sailor, you're
> too uptight.:) It feels really good to say F*** loudly sometimes. Try it!
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-That said, I thought that in 'horseshit' was a far better subject
than
'horsedoo' and was much clearer and more effective communication to
this audience... but if it was used on the original blog it probably
would get people even more defensive and even less likely to listen to
the real point (even though it was used there originally).-=-
I wasn't offended by the language. I was offended by the lame
attempt to say that writing "Horseshit" wasn't derisive or whatever-
else she said it wasn't.
I was offended by an adult deciding to write a review of an assigned
essay by an unschooled teen taking his first formal classes, online,
and declaring it "Horseshit."
-=-Vonnegut said something about swearing that resonated with me:
(roughly) profanity gives people an excuse not to listen to you.-=-
Kurt Vonnegut who wrote _Slapstick_ which is sitting right here on my
desk? The book that has characters saying (one to the president)
"Take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Take a flying fuck at the
Moooon!"?
I would much prefer a happy person using "bad language" without
hurting anyone with it than someone who is careful never to use a
forbidden word but is cruel and cold with the accepted words.
I've just seen "Georgia Rule"--"the lord's name in vain" is a soap-in-
mouth offense, but lying, insult, cruelty and other abuses of faith
and substances are unnoticed. Holly and I watched it together after
I'd seen it once. I think it's too particular and of a sexual
nature to be on the list of movies to recommend to uninitiated
strangers who come by my website, but for people on this list who
know more about who's and what, for older kids and for parents it's
very, very good. Idaho is portrayed by California with CGI
mountains, and that's fun all by itself.
BULLSHIT has much more power than "cow pie," and that's for sure, no
matter how much they're the same substance.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
than
'horsedoo' and was much clearer and more effective communication to
this audience... but if it was used on the original blog it probably
would get people even more defensive and even less likely to listen to
the real point (even though it was used there originally).-=-
I wasn't offended by the language. I was offended by the lame
attempt to say that writing "Horseshit" wasn't derisive or whatever-
else she said it wasn't.
I was offended by an adult deciding to write a review of an assigned
essay by an unschooled teen taking his first formal classes, online,
and declaring it "Horseshit."
-=-Vonnegut said something about swearing that resonated with me:
(roughly) profanity gives people an excuse not to listen to you.-=-
Kurt Vonnegut who wrote _Slapstick_ which is sitting right here on my
desk? The book that has characters saying (one to the president)
"Take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Take a flying fuck at the
Moooon!"?
I would much prefer a happy person using "bad language" without
hurting anyone with it than someone who is careful never to use a
forbidden word but is cruel and cold with the accepted words.
I've just seen "Georgia Rule"--"the lord's name in vain" is a soap-in-
mouth offense, but lying, insult, cruelty and other abuses of faith
and substances are unnoticed. Holly and I watched it together after
I'd seen it once. I think it's too particular and of a sexual
nature to be on the list of movies to recommend to uninitiated
strangers who come by my website, but for people on this list who
know more about who's and what, for older kids and for parents it's
very, very good. Idaho is portrayed by California with CGI
mountains, and that's fun all by itself.
BULLSHIT has much more power than "cow pie," and that's for sure, no
matter how much they're the same substance.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
I think I was unclear. I meant that "horseshit" ("Real horseshit"
actually) was a better subject of Joanna's post to this list about her
son's friend than horsedoo would have been. It was a largely a
better subject because the other woman used it. I was not talking
about the blog posting except as Joanna's response to it. Perhaps my
post will make more sense in that light.
And yes, same Vonnegut. He swears a lot in his books and I imagine he
knows more than most about not being listened to because of it than
most people do. The realization hasn't, it seems, stopped him from
swearing in his writing (which I have read most of and enjoyed
greatly, although it has been a while). I found the statement very
interesting and it affected how much I wanted to swear in my life. I
still do swear, but there was a conscious effort to tone it down.
I don't think that anything I said was in any way contrary to your
statement that about happy swearing people vs. people being mean with
accepted words... I don't disagree with you at all but that is
separate from the point that I was trying to make.
Margaret
actually) was a better subject of Joanna's post to this list about her
son's friend than horsedoo would have been. It was a largely a
better subject because the other woman used it. I was not talking
about the blog posting except as Joanna's response to it. Perhaps my
post will make more sense in that light.
And yes, same Vonnegut. He swears a lot in his books and I imagine he
knows more than most about not being listened to because of it than
most people do. The realization hasn't, it seems, stopped him from
swearing in his writing (which I have read most of and enjoyed
greatly, although it has been a while). I found the statement very
interesting and it affected how much I wanted to swear in my life. I
still do swear, but there was a conscious effort to tone it down.
I don't think that anything I said was in any way contrary to your
statement that about happy swearing people vs. people being mean with
accepted words... I don't disagree with you at all but that is
separate from the point that I was trying to make.
Margaret
On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-That said, I thought that in 'horseshit' was a far better subject
>
> than
> 'horsedoo' and was much clearer and more effective communication to
> this audience... but if it was used on the original blog it probably
> would get people even more defensive and even less likely to listen to
> the real point (even though it was used there originally).-=-
>
> I wasn't offended by the language. I was offended by the lame
> attempt to say that writing "Horseshit" wasn't derisive or whatever-
> else she said it wasn't.
>
> I was offended by an adult deciding to write a review of an assigned
> essay by an unschooled teen taking his first formal classes, online,
> and declaring it "Horseshit."
>
> -=-Vonnegut said something about swearing that resonated with me:
> (roughly) profanity gives people an excuse not to listen to you.-=-
>
> Kurt Vonnegut who wrote _Slapstick_ which is sitting right here on my
> desk? The book that has characters saying (one to the president)
> "Take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Take a flying fuck at the
> Moooon!"?
>
> I would much prefer a happy person using "bad language" without
> hurting anyone with it than someone who is careful never to use a
> forbidden word but is cruel and cold with the accepted words.
>
> I've just seen "Georgia Rule"--"the lord's name in vain" is a soap-in-
> mouth offense, but lying, insult, cruelty and other abuses of faith
> and substances are unnoticed. Holly and I watched it together after
> I'd seen it once. I think it's too particular and of a sexual
> nature to be on the list of movies to recommend to uninitiated
> strangers who come by my website, but for people on this list who
> know more about who's and what, for older kids and for parents it's
> very, very good. Idaho is portrayed by California with CGI
> mountains, and that's fun all by itself.
>
> BULLSHIT has much more power than "cow pie," and that's for sure, no
> matter how much they're the same substance.
>
> Sandra
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
I definitely agree with that. I can be a lot like Gordon Ramsay
sometimes when I'm emotional - and I don't mean negatively emotional,
which I seldom am, just emotional rather than intellectual. That
undoubtedly was instilled in me in my childhood - I grew up in a
culture where swear words were part of normal conversation. Unless you
had to be 'on your best behaviour' for some reason.
Every time I apologise to my son for my foul language, he says, "I
keep telling you, I really don't care" and, interestingly, though he
often hears it from me and on TV and in some of his videogames, I've
never once heard him use a swear word himself. Not ever.
Bob
wrote:
>Try it!
> ~~I am mainly of the position that routine swearing is boring and
> uncreative but in those for whom it's not routine it can make a
> statement! ~~
>
> And I'm of the mindset that if you can't cuss like a sailor, you're
> too uptight.:) It feels really good to say F*** loudly sometimes.
>LOL
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
I definitely agree with that. I can be a lot like Gordon Ramsay
sometimes when I'm emotional - and I don't mean negatively emotional,
which I seldom am, just emotional rather than intellectual. That
undoubtedly was instilled in me in my childhood - I grew up in a
culture where swear words were part of normal conversation. Unless you
had to be 'on your best behaviour' for some reason.
Every time I apologise to my son for my foul language, he says, "I
keep telling you, I really don't care" and, interestingly, though he
often hears it from me and on TV and in some of his videogames, I've
never once heard him use a swear word himself. Not ever.
Bob
Tanya Ziegler
>"Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...> wrote:This makes me very sad because my niece and nephew are beginning to
> My son saw a good friend recently and this boy filled him in on all
> of the recent events of his life... <snip> these life events are all
> secrets from his parents.
>
> That the boy is completely losing out on his parents as a source of
> wisdom that he can actually access and benefit from. He's now going
> to be in the position that I remember so clearly from my own
> teenagehood of trying to figure it all out for himself
show signs of heading down this road at the ages of 12 and 13, and I
remember being this kid when I was a teenager. I remember spending a
lot of energy rebelling against my parents' rules, but puberty was a
very emotionally difficult time for me (especially when it came to
boys) and I would even cry sometimes because all I wanted was to be
able to talk to my mom. I am trying my best to be that shoulder and
safe place to go for my niece and nephew, but I worry it won't be
enough because I live so far away from them. My niece seems pretty
comfortable so far e-mailing me (after school before her parents get
home) when she needs to talk and I hope that continues, but I don't
have that luxury with my nephew and I worry about him a lot. I feel
some hope and relief for other children when I read stories on these
message boards of some parents here who have earned the trust of their
children's friends and become that safe place for them. That's the
best I feel I can hope for, that I can be that for other children too.
I agree, horseshit is right!
Tanya