KT

>
>
> I don't like classes for
>> homeschoolers.
>
>
>Hmmm. I don't like the way many classes for homeschooler are done,
>especially when they're done in a "school-ish",or a developmentally
>inappropriate way. I don't have a problem with classes in general,
>though.
>
I don't have a problem with some classes, like the ones we get at the
zoo or the botanic garden. Since I only have one kid left, I always
volunteer to be the parent in the room if necessary. Most places around
here only want one, but some let all the parents stay. I don't do
classes done by other homeschoolers for most of the reasons you stated.
We have a good Campfire group, and as soon as the over-controlling
current leader leaves and I take over, it's going to get way more
relaxed and fun. THAT turned in to too much like school, and her
partner's formerly cool homeschooled children had become little
syncophants since she took over the parenting. ::getting the willies
just thinking about it::: Poor kids had to cope somehow.

I did get to volunteer with my boy Will's Zoo Academy class, and I went
to the orientation a few weeks ago, and it's not going to be at all like
I feared, with sentence writing and all that. There was only one
workbook page, and her plan was to use only the picture on it (a
humpback whale) and to cut that out and not fill in the blanks. Will
eagerly did that first set of questions, and then a few days ago he
asked me if he *had* to do the other set. Of course not, is what I
said. ;)

Life is too short for school.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ariadna Solovyova

Hi all,

It would be silly to leave this list, I thought, so I didn't. And I'll do
my best to be gentle and humble. I usually am, really :-) . Oh yes, AND
logical.

And I did learn a lot from the previous discussion.

The most important things:

1. I *must* introduce myself before posting, so people will know where I'm
coming from. I'm a programmer/linguist/musician, have read all of Holt
(many times over), almost all of Ivan Illich, and every book on
unschooling I could find. I like radical unschooling (and 'most anything
radical ;-) ) My daughter is 4. I'm from Russia, English is my second
language, so I really didn't know "that honoring feelings business" was
derogatory. I thought it simply meant "what they say about honoring
feelings". I have to "watch my phrasology" (from "The Music Man", too :-)
), but first I have to use it and be corrected. (I love it when people
correct my language; Americans are usually too polite to do it in a
face-to-face conversation.)

2. I must state my goals before posting. Here they are: to ask many
questions and to listen to answers. I don't like arguing at all, so I when
I ask a question, I really just want to ask a question, not to challenge.
When I make a statement, I don't try to convince. If your view is
different, I'll read it with great interest, but won't try to defend mine.
Defending my opinions in this particular situation is not important to me.
I'll defend just a few statements, but it's a lot more interesting to me
to bring up related issues and get deeper into the subject. I feel I'll
learn more that way at this time. That's a good strategy for children and
inexperienced people -- to ask lots of questions and listen. I wish I
always were wise enough to do what I think is best :-) .

A wise child asks one thousand questions,
An unwise, only one hundred and three
(from some Persian poet...;-)... that "Music Man" sure is sticky)

If you don't like to talk to people with these conversational goals,
it's okay if you don't talk to me. If you think people shouldn't post on
this list if they have goals like that, please explain why.

*************
Okay on to the discussion:
The thing is, this discussion is extremely important to me. Because I have
always thought that state-owned schooling and big corporation owned TV are
BOTH things to be avoided. And I'm really interested in this connection
between school and TV as institutional tools. That's just one reason I'm
posting here, and not on some anti-tv list. If you want to know the other
reasons, please ask! :-)

There are LOTSA issues here, and it would be nice to keep them separate:

****Is there a difference between watching TV and videos or home movies?

My answer: Yes. It's easy to make a movie (some kind of movie) and hard to
become a TV broadcaster (see about convivial tools below). It easy to find
a good movie (go to imdb.org and read reviews), it's harder to find a good
TV show (if they have any lasting value, they'll be available on videotape
at the library). I can list more if anyone wants to hear.

What's your answer?

****Is it okay to not have a TV and use the library to check out some TV
shows on videotapes?

My answer: Yes. That's what libraries are for. We pay taxes, overdue fines
and donate, and then we get to use books, magazines, videos, etc. without
having to buy them.

What's your answer?

****Is TV a tool no better or worse than other tools?

My answer: I don't think all tools are equally valuable. I kinda feel it
intuitively, but I started thinking about it with more clarity after
reading "Tools for Conviviality" by Ivan Illich (author of "Deschooling
Society" and a major influence on John Holt). Basically more convivial
tools have more of these features:
* one-to-one communication
* low cost
* easy to use
* widely available
* entrenched
* surveillance-resistant
* censorship-resistant
* disruption-resistant

So, "The Net is only the latest in convivial communication media. Most of
these features are found in face-to-face conversations, the postal system
and the telephone system. In contrast, broadcast television is one of the
least convivial media. It is one-to-many communication and, while cheap
and easy to use as a viewer, is extremely expensive and technically
challenging to be a broadcaster. "
(http://english.uq.edu.au/mc/reviews/features/politics/convivial-c.html)

Don't have Illich's book handy, but the above is in his spirit.

What do you say? Does ANYONE think tools are not all equal? If you do,
please post!

****Whether or not TV is a good tool, do you think that tool is used well
most of the time?

My answer:
No. I think most shows are produced by big corporations and serve their
interests in one way or another. I think I'll list the ways they serve
those interests later. That is, if anyone cares to ask.

What do you think?

****Whether or not all of the above is true, do you think TV is more
addictive than other communication media?

My answer: No. Writing letters to email lists is much more addictive... oh
god I really should go to bed....

****___IF___ someone believes at least one of the above is true, do you
think it's logical for them to ditch the TV?

My answer:
Yes, in most cases.
I'll elaborate later.
****Are children who grew up without the TV more or less likely to get
addicted in adulthood?

My answer:
Very hard to tell. Could be a factor, but there are lots of other
factors at play.

****Is a child likely to share your convictions?

My answer:
Yes, those that you're most passionate about. From my own and my friends'
experience. Not guaranteed, but very likely. But does depend on
personality, the way you talk about your convictions etc. etc.

****If a child has developed a conviction opposing yours, should you help
him to further his attachment to it?

My answer:
It's natural and good to first try (once again ;-) ) to explain your
conviction. Then it's natural and good (if you think your conviction is
true -- but why else would you hold it?) to just point out resources from
which he might learn more, and let him learn by experience, and not help
him actively.

*****
and many many more issues I'll try to single out later.

Boy, am I sleepy... Boy, do I have a lot to say on each one of those...
And boy do I hope it's going to be a nice discussion.

Love unschooling!
Ari "wanna-play-nice" Sol

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/02 5:03:52 AM, ari@... writes:

<< If you think people shouldn't post on
this list if they have goals like that, please explain why. >>

The only complaint I have is the statement in advance that you don't intend
to defend your statements, and so I will make a counter request:

Don't make any statements you can't or won't defend on this list to the 150+
people who have come to learn.

Linguist and programmer and not logical? That's not logical!
Your English is really good for a non-native.

<<And I'm really interested in this connection
between school and TV as institutional tools.>>

It's best for unschoolers NOT to dwell on school.
So if you only like the discussions that are about school, maybe a list for
newer homeschoolers, whose kids are just out of school, would be best for
your purposes.

It seems most unschoolers were other kinds of homeschoolers before coming to
this, and so their kids are rarely fresh out of school. It's too great a
jump for most people to understand.


<<Basically more convivial
tools have more of these features:
* one-to-one communication
* low cost
* easy to use
* widely available
* entrenched
* surveillance-resistant
* censorship-resistant
* disruption-resistant>>

I think by "tool" people here mean scissors, a hammer, a sewing machine, a
television. Things which are not people, but are things people might choose
to use for their own purposes (and by that I mean the viewer, not the evil
corporation you seem to see).

Why does "entrenchment" make a tool (whatever your definition of "tool" is)
better?

<<It is one-to-many communication and, while cheap
and easy to use as a viewer, is extremely expensive and technically
challenging to be a broadcaster.>>

That doesn't change the value of Zoom to kids who like Zoom.

<< I think I'll list the ways they serve
those interests later. That is, if anyone cares to ask.

<<What do you think?>>

I think that unless you're an experienced unschooler or intending to become o
ne, I'm still angry about Monday being such a huge social trainwreck for the
other people on the list.

Yahoo lists can be started by anyone. This one was started by me, to discuss
serious unschooling. It's as though I invited anyone who wanted to come to
a party, but that doesn't mean newcomers to the party have the right to
insult all the guests and tear down the house. It's ALWAYS polite, when
coming into any situation of any sort, to stand on the edge and observe, to
get the tone and rhythm of what's going on, to see what IS before you jump in
the middle with what ought to be. (Unless you're a policeman sent to break
the party up, and this party had no need of being broken up.)

If you approach a sporting event, stand and watch a while before even asking
the other spectators what's going on. Don't jump out on the field and grab
the ball. You won't get a good reaction.

Before we discuss your question about whether all tools are made equal, it
would help for you to define "tool," and if it doesn't match the normal
definition of tool, it will be pretty hard to discuss it.

Sandra

[email protected]

Yep, me too. I read the post incredulously....THIS person calls themselves an
UNschooler????!! Oh my Dodd!!!
No way.
I totally have lost my appetite for questioning the obvious and trying to
help anyone see the difference. I started to post and thought "what's the
point?"
I'll just start another "them" and "us" debate in which certain people I
won't name just bash me for even questioning a newcomer.
Why try? They don't give a damn about helping people "see" what unschooling
really is or helping them get somewhere new.
I am so thankful that the message boards at unschooling.com are not lacking
that very important SUBSTANCE that has helped bring me to where I am today.
Ren





In a message dated 1/30/02 12:40:05 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< >> I read one today from someone who unschooled their kids while they
>>were
>> still in school and now pays them to do workbook pages....sigh.
>> Tia
>>

>I read it too. I started to reply to her, then just deleted. I
>didn't want to "go there".
>Joanna

Ok, I wasn't planning on coming out of lurkdom but I had to respond. I read
the same post and as synical as I am, I actually thought maybe it was a test
or a joke. If it is the real thing, it is truly a sad day for that
unschooling list because everyone has lost the energy to respond.
>>

Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>I think that unless you're an experienced unschooler or intending to become o
>ne, I'm still angry about Monday being such a huge social trainwreck for the
>other people on the list.

I'm intending to become an experienced unschooler can I play?

I know I'm not there yet, but I don't see that I have much of a choice in the matter. My kids have decided for me that we are going to be the best unschoolers we can be. I would rather do something that came with instructions, it suits my personality. The more control I give to my kids, the more I am amazed how well this unschooling thing works. In the past month I have removed, TV limits, a set bedtime, control over ear piercing, control over dessert, required math, and an on-going battle over table manners.

I'm ready to move on to the next level.

Pat

Pat



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I agree with what everyone so far has said about reopening the whole tv
debate. BTDT, I didn't feel like a real learning dialogue was going on
anyway, and I don't feel like going there again. Plus, a friend of mine
who really is trying to learn about unschooling but isn't there yet and
was pretty open about where she is got sort of caught in the crossfire,
felt hurt and attacked and unsubbed. And that makes me unhappy, because I
had told her this was a safe place to learn. So we had a long talk about
it at the park yesterday, but I'm still sad.

However, I do want to reply to this little bit, because I think it speaks
more to unschooling in general, and not the whole tv thang...

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 04:02:22 -0800 (PST) Ariadna Solovyova
<ari@...> writes:
>
> ****If a child has developed a conviction opposing yours, should you
> help him to further his attachment to it?
>
> My answer:
> It's natural and good to first try (once again ;-) ) to explain your
> conviction. Then it's natural and good (if you think your conviction
is
> true -- but why else would you hold it?) to just point out resources
from
> which he might learn more, and let him learn by experience, and not
> help him actively.
>
> *****

I think it's telling that no where in this decription is the possibility
that your child's conviction is true and yours is in error, and perhaps a
parent should be open to new ideas and should also try to find out more.
I am not infallible. Sure, I'll talk about where I'm coming from, but I
know that I'm not always right.

When the PETA thing came up with Cacie (and she originally learned about
PETA through a tv show, some Dateline-type thing with a vet being tried
for cruelty to animals, and the star witness was a PETA member who had
taken a job as a vet tech so she could secretly videotape
stuff...although in this case I think the vet was abusive... anyway, just
an aside) I'm the one who went to find the websites when she wanted to
know more about them, and read them myself, and read some bits out to
her. Not just the totally wacky stuff, either. My
writing-typing-internet skills were much better, first, but also I didn't
know everything about the group, either, and I figured it was quite
possible that what I'd heard was exaggerated, or only part of the story.
Not that the whole thing changed my mind, or hers, but I honestly looked
at it (and the People for the Eating of Tasty Animals totally cracked me
up, BTW). Actively. Just because I disagree, doesn't mean I'll just bow
out and let Cacie sink or float on her own...

I guess the only exception would be enabling something I felt was morally
evil - I wouldn't drive her to KKK meetings, for example. OTOH, I would
help her find their website, and learn more about them with her. I'd
probably drive her to a PETA meeting, though...

Dar, thinking


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Sharon Rudd

I think most shows are produced by big
> corporations and serve their
> interests in one way or another. I think I'll list
> the ways they serve
> those interests later. That is, if anyone cares to
> ask.


That is most probably true (advertising, especially
subliminal advertising). But yes, a list would be of
interest (to me). My boys and I have done some
searching for subliminal adds (political and
otherwise) in all sort of places. And found it, too.
To be aware of the subtle influences did have and
effect on their enjoyment of commercial programming.
TV and periodicals, but also previews on "big screen"
movies had observable (one frame, and super-imposed
images) adds, too.

Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
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Sharon Rudd

> > I don't like classes for
> >> homeschoolers.

I wish Julie's karate' "classes" were availabe to me.
I wouldn't mind a knitting class, either. Still
haven't learned how from the diagrams. Roy wants me to
show him how.

Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://auctions.yahoo.com

zenmomma *

>>In the past month I have removed, TV limits, a set bedtime, control over
>>ear piercing, control over dessert, required math, and an on-going battle
>>over table manners.

I'm ready to move on to the next level.>>

Wow! I'd say you're already seriously dabbling on the next level. :o) When I
talk to brand new unschoolers, I usually suggest they start with just trying
to shake all the schooly thoughts out of their head. You know, stop thinking
in terms of subjects, grades, socializing etc. To trust the learning in
their children. Loosening up on bedtimes, dessert and table manners are step
two. ;-)

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Pat Cald...

From: zenmomma *

<Wow! I'd say you're already seriously dabbling on the next level. :o) <When I
<talk to brand new unschoolers, I usually suggest they start with just <trying
<to shake all the schooly thoughts out of their head. You know, stop <thinking
<in terms of subjects, grades, socializing etc. To trust the learning in
<their children. Loosening up on bedtimes, dessert and table manners are <step
<two. ;-)

<~Mary

The ear piercing one was interesting. When I was growing up I could not get my ears pierced until I was 16. So when asked when dd could get hers pierced, originally I said I thought 13 would be fair. I don't know what brought it up but a few days ago my 10 yo dd asked when she could get her ears pierced. I said "gee let's think about why I said we should wait until 13". I told her when I was growing up wearing makeup and getting your ears pierced was for girls that were old enough to date. She said she just liked wearing a little jewelry. I explained how she would need to pay for whatever she needed herself and do what needs to be done to take care of her newly pierced ears. I couldn't think of one good reason to make her wait. Why had I said 13 in the past?

This brings to mind something I had not thought about before. Now that we are unschoolers, I will not be able to arbitrarily set an age my dds will be allowed to date. I'm going to have to trust them!!! (screaming)

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nichoel

PAT!!

BITE YOUR TONGUE!

:dies:

Nichoel

Fertility Friend Online Support Guide
Now you CAN conceive online..
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----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Cald...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Are all tools made equal? (from a sadder-but-wiser girl)



From: zenmomma *

<Wow! I'd say you're already seriously dabbling on the next level. :o) <When I
<talk to brand new unschoolers, I usually suggest they start with just <trying
<to shake all the schooly thoughts out of their head. You know, stop <thinking
<in terms of subjects, grades, socializing etc. To trust the learning in
<their children. Loosening up on bedtimes, dessert and table manners are <step
<two. ;-)

<~Mary

The ear piercing one was interesting. When I was growing up I could not get my ears pierced until I was 16. So when asked when dd could get hers pierced, originally I said I thought 13 would be fair. I don't know what brought it up but a few days ago my 10 yo dd asked when she could get her ears pierced. I said "gee let's think about why I said we should wait until 13". I told her when I was growing up wearing makeup and getting your ears pierced was for girls that were old enough to date. She said she just liked wearing a little jewelry. I explained how she would need to pay for whatever she needed herself and do what needs to be done to take care of her newly pierced ears. I couldn't think of one good reason to make her wait. Why had I said 13 in the past?

This brings to mind something I had not thought about before. Now that we are unschoolers, I will not be able to arbitrarily set an age my dds will be allowed to date. I'm going to have to trust them!!! (screaming)

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

When I was little, about 7 I wanted my eats pierced.
This "wasn't done". I persisted. About two years
later, I pierced them myself.

Sharon of the Swamp


> The ear piercing one was interesting. When I was
> growing up I could not get my ears pierced until I
> was 16. So when asked when dd could get hers
> pierced, originally I said I thought 13 would be
> fair. I don't know what brought it up but a few
> days ago my 10 yo dd asked when she could get her
> ears pierced. I said "gee let's think about why I
> said we should wait until 13". I told her when I
> was growing up wearing makeup and getting your ears
> pierced was for girls that were old enough to date.
> She said she just liked wearing a little jewelry. I
> explained how she would need to pay for whatever she
> needed herself and do what needs to be done to take
> care of her newly pierced ears. I couldn't think of
> one good reason to make her wait. Why had I said 13
> in the past?
>
> This brings to mind something I had not thought
> about before. Now that we are unschoolers, I will
> not be able to arbitrarily set an age my dds will be
> allowed to date. I'm going to have to trust them!!!
> (screaming)
>
> Pat
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
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Sharon Rudd

oops. ears, not eats.

> When I was little, about 7 I wanted my eats pierced.
> This "wasn't done". I persisted. About two years
> later, I pierced them myself.
>
> Sharon of the Swamp


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com

Pat Cald...

>PAT!!

>BITE YOUR TONGUE!

>:dies:

>Nichoel

I said my dd wanted her ears pierced. I don't want my tongue pierced. LOL

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/02 4:50:03 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I will not be able to arbitrarily set an age my dds will be allowed to
date. I'm going to have to trust them!!! (screaming) >>

But they won't be in the culture of people talking about who went out and
who's going steady and all that.

Kirby has only been on one real date. He used his own money and he and a
teenaged girl walked to a restaurant and ate. Her family was at our house
during that time. He was 14.

But MANY times he has been out in mixed groups of kids, to movies, to
restaurants, to play games at someone's house, to go to the anime club
meeting that is after hours in a comic book store (midnight to 3:00 a.m. on
Fridays) and they come in very late, or he e-mails and tells me he's at
Pat's, or Eric's (the regular places) and I check e-mail whenever his bed's
empty.

That all came gradually, though. It was never "What are the abiding, overall
rules?" It was "Can I do this one thing?"

"Okay."

"Can I do a similar thing, with the following people?"

"Okay."

BUT:
He has never failed to notify, has never lied about where he was, bring back
the change if he took money, etc. Gradually I have come to really trust him.

When he starts going out alone with girls in cars, I might have a whole
'nother set of fears and feelings. But I think letting him try beforehand
with just guys, and mixed groups, can't have hurt.

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

The subject is mine, but
my little sister sent me these:

>Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of
the
> time,>which produced an impressive set of calluses
on his feet. He
> also ate> very> >little, which made him rather frail
and with his odd
diet,
> he suffered from bad breath. This made him ....what?
(Oh, man, this
is so
> bad,it's good)
> > >A super callused fragile mystic hexed by
halitosis.
> > >> >
> > >There was a man who sent ten different puns to
> > >friends, with the hope that at least one of the
> > >puns would make them laugh.
> > >> > Unfortunately,....... no pun in ten
did.
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Tia Leschke

>
>
>I'm intending to become an experienced unschooler can I play?

If it were up to me you could. <g> I've thoroughly enjoyed watching your
process on the other list. (Your kids are good "teachers")
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Nancy Wooton

on 1/30/02 3:35 PM, Pat Cald... at homeschoolmd@... wrote:

> I couldn't think of one good reason to make her wait. Why had I said 13 in
> the past?

I offer occasionally to get my 14.5 y.o. dd's ears pierced, but so far she's
flat refused. She sensibly asked just how much it *hurts,* and I told her I
couldn't sleep for a week afterward. My first job was in a mall store that,
among other things, pierced ears; when they did kids, they got two
employees, one on each ear. They knew if they did only one, they'd *never*
get get the second in. Dd is horrified by the sight of babies with pierced
ears, because they had no choice in it.

Dd is totally unconcerned with fashion, in any case.

Nancy

[email protected]

Holly got her ears pierced when she was seven. It was just before her 8th
birthday. We went to the mall.

Her dad didn't want her to, but said it was her choice. She thought about it
for a long time, and talked to him another couple of times and he said he
thought it was a bad idea, but they were her ears.

So she did.

She's sensitive to stuff, and even the fancy earrings bother her ears. So
she let them heal up.

Then she decided she wanted them pierced again, about a year later. A friend
had some hypodermics of local anesthetic (like paramedics have?) and was
going to give her a shot there, to be able to gently re-pierce through the
same hole (so she wouldn't have a messy big hole, or whatever--we didn't
trust the mall piercers to care).

He ended up using the needle to make the hole. She took really good care of
them for a while, but even with using the stuff often, they'd ooze. So now
she puts earrings in occasionally, to keep the holes open, and to see if as
she gets older the problem is less.

I can pick earrings up off the ground and stick them in, nothing bothers my
ears, except I just don't much like earrings because they get in my way and
tangled up in my hair (which is just straight and long).

If we had made her wait, I think she would have put lots of energy into
thinking about it, being impatient, glorifying it, and maybe then being
really disappointed by infections. She's ten, and it's not a big deal for
her one way or another.

Sandra

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:
> It's best for unschoolers NOT to dwell on school.
> So if you only like the discussions that are about school, maybe a list for
>
> newer homeschoolers, whose kids are just out of school, would be best for
> your purposes.
>
> It seems most unschoolers were other kinds of homeschoolers before coming
> to
> this, and so their kids are rarely fresh out of school. It's too great a
> jump for most people to understand.


I'm one of the few that jumped right into unschooling after having my son in
private school for 8 years. I swallowed John Holt "hook, line, & sinker"
after a week of intense immersion.

I spent a few months blasting school every chance I got. Now I don't feel
that I have to any more. I've been asked several times to have John Taylor
Gatto at the conference in SC. I'm afraid it would turn into
school-bashing---not productive. We all know school sucks. (Besides, he'll be
in Atlanta next week and I'm going---even though I've heard he's also a bit
dry).

Kelly





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carol & Mac

Hope Holly isn't like me:

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> She's sensitive to stuff, and even the fancy earrings bother her
> ears. So
> she let them heal up.

> She took really good care of
> them for a while, but even with using the stuff often, they'd ooze.
> So now
> she puts earrings in occasionally, to keep the holes open, and to see
> if as
> she gets older the problem is less.

I had my ears pierced at 18, and at 50 they still ooze if I use anything
other than good silver :-(

I reminded my son of this every time he wanted to have his done, but at
17 he chose to have his ear pierced anywhere and ..... he's 20 and his
are still oozing from time to time.

Carol

Ariadna Solovyova

Hi all,

I renamed the thread to clarify the subject. By tools I mean things people
choose to use for their purposes, just like Sandra said.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 SandraDodd@... wrote:

.... [in re to Ari's summary of the chapter about communication tools
from Ivan Illich's book "Tools for Conviviality":]
> <<Basically more convivial
> tools have more of these features:
> * one-to-one communication
> * low cost
> * easy to use
> * widely available
> * entrenched
> * surveillance-resistant
> * censorship-resistant
> * disruption-resistant>>
>
> I think by "tool" people here mean scissors, a hammer, a sewing machine, a
> television. Things which are not people, but are things people might choose
> to use for their own purposes (and by that I mean the viewer, not the evil
> corporation you seem to see).
>
******************
Oh, I think I missed the word "communication" up there,
it should be something like "more convivial communication tools"... so
things compared are personal communication, telephone communication,
computer networks, radio, tv, books, etc.

Illich talks about tools in general, though. E.g., cars, bicycles, drugs
of various types, guns, etc. And it's actually very interesting to include
all kinds of tools. For example, cars are not too convivial 'cause their
use changes the landscape, so it becomes less people-friendly, and changes
the concept of accessible distance, so people "lose the use of their own
two feet", etc.
****************

> Why does "entrenchment" make a tool (whatever your definition of "tool" is)
> better?

**********
I think Illich and other writers use entrenched to mean "one that has been
used for a long time", and it's better for a communication tool because
more people know how to use it, for example, so the rules about using it
are clearer, etc.
**********

> [about TV]
> <<It is one-to-many communication and, while cheap
> and easy to use as a viewer, is extremely expensive and technically
> challenging to be a broadcaster.>>
>
> That doesn't change the value of Zoom to kids who like Zoom.
>
***********

Well, Zoom is not TV, right? I think it's way easier to make a game like
Zoom than to become a major TV broadcaster.

Illich's point is, some tools are designed to be less convivial, that is
they are "worse" from the beginning. So, TV, for example, is not
censorship-resistant, surveillance-resistant, and not easy to use as a
broadcaster (only easy for the viewer). And the Internet, e.g. is. (Illich
doesn't actually talk about TV vs the Internet, he mentions TV and
"computer networks", whatever that meant in th 70's.)

Anyway, Illich thinks some tools are inherently better than others. And I
think he's onto something. He's a pretty clever guy in general. Anyone
care to discuss this further?

Ari

Fetteroll

on 1/30/02 1:28 PM, starsuncloud@... at starsuncloud@... wrote:

> Why try?

Because it then becomes the forum you fear it will become. If it becomes
soft, is it because some posters are posting the way they feel is best which
happens to be softer? Or is it because the probing questioners have stopped
asking probing questions?

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>But they won't be in the culture of people talking about who went out and
>who's going steady and all that.

Would it matter if they were? We have no contact with other homeschoolers so my kids only hang out with schooled kids.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/02 1:28:59 AM, ari@... writes:

<< Well, Zoom is not TV, right? I think it's way easier to make a game like
Zoom than to become a major TV broadcaster. >>

Zoom doesn't exist without television.
It's not a game.

<<he mentions TV and
"computer networks", whatever that meant in th 70's.>>

TV was quite different in the 70's, too.

And TV is different as an adjunct to a school life than it is as one of many
resources for unschoolers.

<<Anyway, Illich thinks some tools are inherently better than others. And I
think he's onto something. He's a pretty clever guy in general. Anyone
care to discuss this further?>>

Is there a website or discussion group those who are interested can go to?

Sandra

joanna514

Our earring story:
I had said the "wait til 13" because that was what was done to me.
I didn't mind waiting as a kid. Just accepted it.(It's wierd, what
an accepting, non questioning child I was).
My dd seemed to accept it too(which isn't the norm for her).
I told her about 4 years ago, that I was wrong, they were her ears,
and whenever she was ready, we'd go get it done.
This was not met with happiness!
She suffered and anguished about wheather she should or not. Would
it "change" her forever. What if she didn't like it. Her perfect
little ears would be scarred! Not to mention the pain!
Well, this past birthday(her 11th), she bit the bullet, and we went
and had it done. The lady messed up on the first one, and only got
it half way through. But, she finally got it done, and Carly handled
it beautifully.
*I* on the other hand, was a blubbering mess! I held it pretty much
together, until we got in the parking lot, where I hugged her and
broke down into a laughing emotional cry. "My baby!
Changed forever!"
We still laugh about that.
Joanna(who is not the emotional type, and was extremely suprised by
her behavior that day)

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Holly got her ears pierced when she was seven. It was just before
her 8th
> birthday. We went to the mall.
>
> Her dad didn't want her to, but said it was her choice. She
thought about it
> for a long time, and talked to him another couple of times and he
said he
> thought it was a bad idea, but they were her ears.
>
> So she did.
>
> She's sensitive to stuff, and even the fancy earrings bother her
ears. So
> she let them heal up.
>
> Then she decided she wanted them pierced again, about a year
later. A friend
> had some hypodermics of local anesthetic (like paramedics have?)
and was
> going to give her a shot there, to be able to gently re-pierce
through the
> same hole (so she wouldn't have a messy big hole, or whatever--we
didn't
> trust the mall piercers to care).
>
> He ended up using the needle to make the hole. She took really
good care of
> them for a while, but even with using the stuff often, they'd
ooze. So now
> she puts earrings in occasionally, to keep the holes open, and to
see if as
> she gets older the problem is less.
>
> I can pick earrings up off the ground and stick them in, nothing
bothers my
> ears, except I just don't much like earrings because they get in my
way and
> tangled up in my hair (which is just straight and long).
>
> If we had made her wait, I think she would have put lots of energy
into
> thinking about it, being impatient, glorifying it, and maybe then
being
> really disappointed by infections. She's ten, and it's not a big
deal for
> her one way or another.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

My Mom's first statement to me when she saw my nose was "You don't even
where your earrings in your ears!"
It's hard for my hair to tangle in my nose.
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!

>I can pick earrings up off the ground and stick them in, nothing bothers my
>ears, except I just don't much like earrings because they get in my way and
>tangled up in my hair (which is just straight and long).
>

[email protected]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:40:09 -0500 "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...>
writes:
> From: SandraDodd@...
> >But they won't be in the culture of people talking about who went
> out and
> >who's going steady and all that.
>
> Would it matter if they were? We have no contact with other
> homeschoolers so my kids only hang out with schooled kids.
>

I think the typical high school dating scene is awfully rough on kids,
just MHO...

The homeschooled teens I'm friends with seem to just hang out more than
formally date, and the one kid who kept trying to impress everyone with
his slick moves and swearing was told pretty clearly that that wouldn't
fly... his family struggles a lot with the school stuff, his mom seems to
want him to be self-motivated to do all sorts of "cool" projects, and he
wants to IM people and skateboard... he is a nice kid, he used to babysit
Cacie, but he's struggling.

I remember lots of nights with rows of kids in their sleeping bags, boys
and girls... one night when Cacie was 7 or 8 she was sleeping in the
middle of 4 or 5 teenage boys, after they'd all spent the evening
inventing lego & rubber band guns than really worked. It was really
sweet...

Dar
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[email protected]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:27:40 -0800 (PST) Ariadna Solovyova
<ari@...> writes:
> Well, Zoom is not TV, right? I think it's way easier to make a game
> like
> Zoom than to become a major TV broadcaster.

Zuboom ubis tubee vubee. Hubas bubeen fubor yubears. Ubi wubatched ubit
ubin thube subevubentubies.

Ubif yubou cuban't rubead thubis, mubaybube yubou shubould wubatch ubit.
:-)

Dubar
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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Tia Leschke

>
>Zuboom ubis tubee vubee. Hubas bubeen fubor yubears. Ubi wubatched ubit
>ubin thube subevubentubies.
>
>Ubif yubou cuban't rubead thubis, mubaybube yubou shubould wubatch ubit.
>:-)

Ubi cuban rubead ubit, uband ubi nubevuber wubatched Zuboom. Bubut ubi
wubent tubo schubool.
<G>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island