Melissa Dietrick

hello,
a few weeks ago, I wrote asking for advice about protecting my soon to be 8yo daughter
shanti from detrimental effects that could be had by annual testing. I surely must have
worded my post poorly as I did not get any sort of response, on or off list. So I am trying
again.

First the background, then my issues...

Here in italy, homeschooling is garanteed by the law, as long as the parents have the
capability both economically and "physically" (Im not remembering the wording in italian
but it comes basically to that)... And according to this same law, testing is not required
except apon re entry to the public school system, except for the 8th year (end of 8th
grade). All exiting 8thgraders must take a public exam and homeschooled children are
included...all well and good. THis information for me was what let me really go free with
unschooling, because I had no fears for annual testing.

Then boom, the 15th of april, I get the letter that tells me to prepare a curriculum for april
30, along with a request for admission to the exam for going into the 3rd grade. I call the
principal to clarify, We intend to continue homeschool so as I understand it there is no
need to take this exam...the principal looks up the information, as it seems possible, but
no, there is a new "request" ( "circolare") from the Dept of Education that all
homeschoolers take an exam which I have come to understand is to see if the child is
indeed learning...I understand now that there are many children that are being kept home
to work or worse, so that the daughters do not mix with unwelcome others...Or at least,
this is the fear, as I have yet to meet in person another homeschooled child.

There are a handful of us, doing it Italian Style (as opposed to expat style--they are
basically ignored as they are learning in english or foreign languages).

So my fears are many and not all stemming from the exam per se but exasperated by it.

I am afraid she will feel inadequate if she doesnt understand what is required of her. I
already get this feeling that she thinks that she doesnt "do" anything (she is incredibly
creative and free and wonderful) because her two older brothers help her along this way. I
sometimes feel like they (well, mainly my 14yo, the 10yo not so much) are mobbing
her...not full time, but enough that I am feeling overprotective, maybe...afraid for her self
esteem...afraid that Pure Unschooling may just not be possible, as I have no chance of
deschooling my 14 yo?

Im wondering about things that Ive read here and elsewhere where Sandra writes to just
let the child go into the test "cold".

I just recently read this on Unschooling discussion and altho it was referring to a teenager,
it really resonated as a Truth. Yet Im scared.

What am I scared of? and can this be possible for a child of almost 8years? She will be
facing 3 teachers, whom she does not know, in a strange environment, and they will be
covering all that they "do " in school. GRanted, I am not required to follow the school
curriculum, yet, with basically no materials to show *what* she has done, they have
nothing to go by to create their test...

I have all sorts of books for "2nd" graders, with worksheets to fill out and such, because
having had 4 children already go thru the second grade, these things acumalate (we buy
new books year by year in italy, but that is another issue)...
So I know what they will be looking for. I am pretty sure she is fine for just about
everything except long division and multiplications with carryovers (we havent ever
touched the stuff on paper, just as it comes up...she can see a bunch of orderly holes and
count that they are 5 holes by 10 holes and knows instantly they are 50. so I know the
concepts are there, so I said so, but I dont know if she can *do* them on paper unless I
show her first...I d really hate for her to have to do multiplication or long division and not
have the slightest clue.

Help!
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 20yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 13yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 7yr, giacomo leo 4yr and gioele 2y

"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- I'll meet you there."

Rumi

http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu

Sandra Dodd

-=-Then boom, the 15th of april, I get the letter that tells me to
prepare a curriculum for april
30, along with a request for admission to the exam for going into the
3rd grade. I call the
principal to clarify, -=-

Are you required to report to the school that way?

If not, don't. If the law has allowances to do this without
communicating regularly with the school, cut loose from them.



When in New Mexico there were test requirements in 4th grade, what
many families did was register a child again in third, saying he
needed third grade over. Then the next year they would register him
for 5th grade. Can you do something like that?

Is there some sort of correspondence school you could sign up with
there? Would it have to be an Italian school? Clonlara.org

http://clonlara.org

handles families here when the state is difficult, sometimes.



-=-he principal looks up the information, as it seems possible, but

no, there is a new "request" ( "circolare") from the Dept of
Education that all
homeschoolers take an exam which I have come to understand is to see
if the child is
indeed learning-=-

How binding is that? What if you were out of town or out of the
country during the test time?

-=-Im wondering about things that Ive read here and elsewhere where
Sandra writes to just let the child go into the test "cold". -=-

I was talking about a placement test for a community college or local
tech school.

-=-What am I scared of? and can this be possible for a child of
almost 8years? She will be

facing 3 teachers, whom she does not know, in a strange environment,
and they will be
covering all that they "do " in school-=-

Is there another way the test could be administered?

Could you ask them not to give you or your daughter the results? Or
ask for the results sealed and then not open them?

(Just brainstorming possibilities...)



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Are you required to report to the school that way?
>
> If not, don't. If the law has allowances to do this without
> communicating regularly with the school, cut loose from them.

this would be an idea, yet everyone is telling me, "this is Italy." Meaning, the law can be
interpreted in different ways, depending on what sort of judge I get infront of me.

THe main advice here is to have good rapport with your school officials. last years
principal was just a lovely person, who helped me find the contacts, encouraged me to
homeschool, and found the laws himself (he was the person that assured me I wouldnt
have to test unless re entering the public school system), but this is a very small school in
a rather rural mountain area, so the principals come and go. Last years had lasted 4 years,
which was a record. This year, a new principal arrived and of a different sort. Last years,
he knew the term Attachment Parenting (a rarity for italy), he knew about Nonviolent
Communication...this years left home at 9 to boarding school in the big city 2 hours from
home and continued on thru University. (we know these details because dh Lorenzo is
very good at pulling other peoples stories out of them). We also learned from this
conversation that he thinks school is as important as the Pope (not his actual words, but to
give an idea.).

One possibility Ive learned last week is that I may choose the school that I wish to "declare
my homeschooling" with...So Ive been talking with friends, and one knows an elementary
principal (a woman for a change) who may be sympathetic to our ideas. I am going to meet
with her next week, but for this year I expect the test to happen. Next year maybe this
"regulation" will be dropped. We did just change governments. What I do understand is if
the principal doesnt want to test, she doesnt have to. But the guy Im dealing with right
now, he seems to enjoy fiscality, to the umpteenth.

>
>
>
> When in New Mexico there were test requirements in 4th grade, what
> many families did was register a child again in third, saying he
> needed third grade over. Then the next year they would register him
> for 5th grade. Can you do something like that?

That is clever! The "regulation" that came before this one (2006) wanted testing to happen
in first, third and fifth grades but from what I understand, this was never done. the
families I exchange emails with have never had to do any testing. And from what I gather,
the newest "regulation" (because again, they arent Laws, in the true sense) which was sent
out the end of March 2008, has not reaped any other heads other than my own. sigh.

For this year, I am pretty much resigned for the test. And Im hoping to change schools
with which to deal with. I was hoping I could do it with a private school, but regestering
must be with a public institution...or even the correspondence school you mention, but
because we are "part" of the italian system already, Ive been told that sort of solution
wouldnt work. It is not recognised as a school, and so we would still be homeschooling. I
think that the clonlara school works for< both parents foreigners> families. And especially
for families who dont have other children within the school system. I cant vanish
anymore. At least not this year.



>
> Is there some sort of correspondence school you could sign up with
> there? Would it have to be an Italian school? Clonlara.org
>
> http://clonlara.org
>
> handles families here when the state is difficult, sometimes.

I did contact the director, but she says she doesnt need recognition to exit. I can
understand her point of view, but I would have preferred hearing if other families are
actually able to do school with clonlara for the whole "school required time" here in italy.

I know that the 8th grade exam is not avoidable, tho one can post pone it in the way you
are suggesting for the elementary exam by saying the child is repeating the year. But not
skip it.

Im rather reluctant to use this strategy here, as there is that clause that says "if the parent
is not able to teach" then he must avail of the public school system, and the clause gives
the principal the power to decide that I am not capable of teaching. Obviously I can take
this to court, but I would rather just slide by this year, at least...


>
> -=-he principal looks up the information, as it seems possible, but
>
> no, there is a new "request" ( "circolare") from the Dept of
> Education that all
> homeschoolers take an exam which I have come to understand is to see
> if the child is
> indeed learning-=-
>
> How binding is that? What if you were out of town or out of the
> country during the test time?

Im not sure. I know that the testing must take place before sept 15th 2008 as written in
the "circolare"-

dont think dh would go for skipping out tho. He is more for taking it, and then working to
avoid it in the future, but if not then taking the bull by the horns.

> -=-Im wondering about things that Ive read here and elsewhere where
> Sandra writes to just let the child go into the test "cold". -=-
>
> I was talking about a placement test for a community college or local
> tech school.
>

Yes, I realize this, that is why I wanted to see what you think for this age.

> -=-What am I scared of? and can this be possible for a child of
> almost 8years? She will be
>
> facing 3 teachers, whom she does not know, in a strange environment,
> and they will be
> covering all that they "do " in school-=-
>

> Is there another way the test could be administered?

well, he conceded that he "could" use only two teachers. But the circolare specifies 3. I
dont really get why 3 are needed. I suggested having the testing happen in our home,
seeing as this is the environment where she learns. That was no dice. He did give me one
little assurance: I told him that I was worried because of her negative experiences with
school the year before. I explained that we dont use the same methods nor arrive at the
same goals as might be done within a school context...he asked for a collection of her
things she has done and they would base the test on that. So I said okay.

Thing was, Ive got no collection of works.! just drawings, yarns she has spun, cloths she
has woven, a few stories that Ive not even read as she likes to write for herself...and a
couple pages of workbook stuff here and there. She has a formidible pile of books she
has read---hats she has sewn, dollies she has created but not much for basing their
beloved test upon. I was not concerned with leaving a trace behind me. Dh warned me, I
didnt listen. That was a mistake.


>
> Could you ask them not to give you or your daughter the results? Or
> ask for the results sealed and then not open them?

I did ask this in writing. I dont know the answer yet, however.

>
> (Just brainstorming possibilities...)
Thanks for brainstorming.

I like the idea of skipping about. But for this year thats out. Its too late for that...or do you
think I should try to negotiate it? I dont think dh would go for it.

My main concern now is definitely trying to "protect her gift" so to speak. *I* have been
playing math games the last couple of days and she has been joining in. Today, she
actually asked to change from one on miniclip to go back to the math games...but Idont
know if she has been tuning into my concerns. She no dummy. So now what?

Sandra, do you think she might need a little support, even covert support as in "lets help
mamma do some grammar " (everyone Knows mamma needs italian grammar help), and
lets play some of those math games again...
thats basically what italian school is about. Doing math and Doing Grammar. they give lip
service to the rest. The rest is where she is strong...she loves to read and write.

This letter is a rather muddle, im afraid.

Let me see, these are the things I Know:

-They want to know that she is indeed learning.
-She doesnt *have* to k now what she is "expected" to know.
-I have every right to homeschool her.
-I have every right to homeschool using the curriculum and method I prefer.

-I *may* be able to avoid knowing whether she has passed or not. I like the idea of results
written in a sealed envelope. I expect that would be just in keeping with the principal's
fetish for beurocracy. (Im being sarcastic, sorry. Ive deleted so many but this one is
staying).

-I asked to be able to see the exam prior to her taking it. he didnt answer yes but he
didnt answer no either. He said "get the curriculum in and then we will see."

One last note: this "regulation" is rather strange. It "admits" (ammettere, which is close to
permettere or "permits") me to "ask for" in writing to take the exam of "idoneità" which
google translates as suitability ...for entering the next grade I guess.

Because *I* am not required to know about these "circolari" or new regulations, if the
principal hadnt bothered with letting me know, I wouldnt *have* to ask to have the test
given to Shanti. But because they asked, if I say no, they could cause us trouble. I dont
know that it could be problematic in the long run but I expect it could be stressful,
especially for dh. I mean, everybody knows our family. And although we are not "normal"
our children are well liked by everybody and my older girls are"academic stars" and have
received awards etc...(not because of us, but in this sort of situation, I expect this would
reflect on us).

Part of me wanted to just say no. we dont have to do this, so we wont. but Im not
garenteed anything. and homeschooling is not exactly popular here yet.

so Im off,
thanks alot for puting your brain to storm,
my littlest is stirring.
melissa
in italy

Pamela Sorooshian

Make it up. Figure out what she knows - and write it down as if that
is what you taught. Don't turn in stuff of HERS to them, you write up
what you've supposedly taught - things for them to ask her about.

She's only going into 3rd grade? There's no long division in 2nd grade.


Anyway - do you read to her? Does she read? What do you and she read?
Write those books down as if those were assigned reading. They can ask
her questions about them.

Does she know something about weaving and yarn-making? Write that down
- that is a perfectly respectable thing for her to be learning. They
can ask her questions about it.

Vocabulary development - provide them with a list of the words she
knows already - say you taught them to her. They can test her on their
meaning and ask her to use them in a sentence.

For math - write down what she really knows already.

Addition facts? Subtraction facts? Two-digit addition? More than two-
digits? With carrying? Two-digit subtraction? More than 2 digits? With
borrowing? Whatever she does know - write that down.

Measurement -- how to use a meter stick? How many centimeters in a
meter?

Money - that's a good one for this age.

Calendar -- does she know how many days in a week, months in a year,
days in a year?

Maybe a little probability? If there are two pink and one blue balls
in a bag, what color is most likely to be drawn out of the bag without
looking? Why? (Younger kids will say "Pink, because that's my favorite
color," or "Blue, because I'm a boy and pink is for girls.")

Does she know shapes? Triangles, squares, rectangles?

Counting by twos, threes, fives, tens?

Fractions - simple ones like "Divide a pizza into fourths." Daily life
stuff - not math worksheet stuff.

Temperature - does she know how to read a thermometer - air temp, I
mean, not body temp.

Concept of ratio? -- "If there are 10 boys and 5 girls, there are 2
boys for each 1 girl."

Again - it seems like you are supposed to tell them what to test her
on. So look at some typical courses of study and make a list from
those of things she knows already.

Here is the World Book Course of Study for Grade 2 --- I'm NOT saying
she should know all this, but if you pick things off this that she
does know, that'll give them stuff to test her on.

<http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Students?curriculum/grade2>

-pam


On May 1, 2008, at 4:53 PM, Melissa Dietrick wrote:

> I explained that we dont use the same methods nor arrive at the
> same goals as might be done within a school context...he asked for a
> collection of her
> things she has done and they would base the test on that. So I said
> okay.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Chase

Melissa,

Are you Italian yourself? I'm guessing that your dh is, but not sure
about you. If you are English speaking, could you say that she is
studying in English? You said something about how that group living
in Italy is left alone. It may be too late at this point, as you
say. Or, perhaps you could ask that the test be given in English --
something they may not be able to do?

Just another idea.

Mahalo,
Barbara

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> Make it up. Figure out what she knows - and write it down as if that
> is what you taught. Don't turn in stuff of HERS to them, you write up
> what you've supposedly taught - things for them to ask her about.
>
> She's only going into 3rd grade? There's no long division in 2nd grade.
>

<<Again - it seems like you are supposed to tell them what to test her
on. So look at some typical courses of study and make a list from
those of things she knows already.<<

Pam, thankyou for this nice translation of academics...
its very reassuring.

I actually *did* this! my friend that Im relying on for advice told me to take any of the 2nd
year books we have on hand and look either at the beginning of each chapter or the table
of contents (depends which editor) are the actual requirements for curriculum

...so Yes. She does know lots, and every thing that was written as to be covered, including
understanding the concept of division with and with out "resto" (leftover??cant remember
the term). THey *are* teaching long division in the second grade now and the two newest
books I have show the process. They didnt use to. My first 3 childrens books dont have
this covered. Just dividing groups of things up.

I said she understood the concept which is what the official lingo states...the book just
goes into long division.


She reads: As I helped her older brother grasp the alphabet she just watched played the
games and absorbed it along side him.

thanks again, Pam, because your list makes me feel *very* reassured.
she know all that stuff and more. She can measure kilos, and double or triple a recipe
with 180 grams of flour. She is quite good at multiplying and dividing small amounts (we
are a family of 9, after all, lots of stuff to pass out all the time!)

She recognises and can read out numbers into the 4digit range (skill from video
gamescores)

so yes, actually not giving them anything does work to her advantage ...

Like I said, I am feeling this anxiety is *mine* and getting some feed back is helping get
my thoughts back into perspective. Like many have told me, they probably arent trying to
ruin our life...these are teachers and they like kids.

I had mentioned to the principle that she reads quite well...and he actually said "so what
are you worried about?"

I just need to get a grip. RElax and let her be, I expect.
thanks, melissa
in italy

Melissa Dietrick

yes, I am a US expat...
but I dont think it is doable as this is a small community and everybody knows us. THe
principals change but the schools and their teachers dont! Even in alba ( the larger city
where the highschools are located --only about 25.000)our older girls are well know, as
they are liked and enthusiastic participants at school and in after school activities.

And shanti the teachers already know her. I used to teach english and music "laboratories"
in the schools and she always tagged along. Not to mention the fact that she started the
first grade here, and that just didnt work out. Since I knew that year that I could indeed
homeschool, I did. (before that, internet was not useful yet in italy, and I didnt know we
could)...

I think that the expats are ignored because the children arent italian citizens so they let
them learn as they please.

its different for our kids, tho of course if we had homeschooled from the beginning,
maybe we could have slipped thru the loops more easily.

thankyou for responding! Ive been feeling so anxious, its nice to receive support!
melissa
in italy

--- In [email protected], Barbara Chase <bc@...> wrote:

> Are you Italian yourself? I'm guessing that your dh is, but not sure
> about you. If you are English speaking, could you say that she is
> studying in English? You said something about how that group living
> in Italy is left alone. It may be too late at this point, as you
> say. Or, perhaps you could ask that the test be given in English --
> something they may not be able to do?

rowinadequina16

I think Pam's advice was right on target. Everything I've read in your
emails here indicates that your daughter is at least at the same level
of other 2nd graders there, and certainly above them in some areas.
So yeah, definitely, be reassured!

. Like many have told me, they probably arent trying to
> ruin our life...these are teachers and they like kids.
>
> I had mentioned to the principle that she reads quite well...and he
actually said "so what
> are you worried about?"
>
> I just need to get a grip. RElax and let her be, I expect.
>


While relaxing your test anxiety is a great idea, I would definitely
caution you about making assumptions about the motivations of those in
the school system, for several reasons. Whatever their personal
motivations, they *are* part of that system, and obliged to defend it.
And you are the odd one out, however well liked your family is in the
area. The fact that your older children are also supporters of that
system (by their actions and even some of their "not deschooled"
sentiments, as you described) could even work against you, in a worst
case scenario.

You know I'm speaking from personal experience here, but I don't think
it's safe to assume that what others think is best for our children
will actually be what you or the children think is best. Especially
since homeschooling seems to be even less accepted there than it is in
France, the teachers will likely have never even thought about
unschooling at all, much less embraced it as you have. And if push
comes to shove, they would likely encourage you to put her in school,
for her own good. BECAUSE they like kids. BECAUSE based on what they
have internalized, that is what is best for her. And while that
wouldn't "ruin her life" in all likelihood, it's certainly not what
you would consider best for her, right?

In general, I would suggest that you keep this in mind in your
dealings with anyone in the system. I don't think paranoid is the way
to go into it, but neither do I feel that you can believe that you are
all partners in looking out for your family's welfare. Keep that as
your and your dh's own personal job, and keep the "well-meaning"
strangers at arm's length as much as possible.

Just my own personal two cents!

Peace,
Robin

Sandra Dodd

-=-including
understanding the concept of division with and with out
"resto" (leftover??cant remember
the term)-=-

remainder

-=-I had mentioned to the principle that she reads quite well...and
he actually said "so what are you worried about?"-=-

Most tests are reading tests, even the math parts. You can usually
eliminate two wrong answers and then it's just a matter of figuring
out which of the best two it is. Most errors I saw when I was
teaching and grading tests didn't involve a lack of knowledge. Even
kids who knew the material well would miss something from reading too
fast, or only reading half the question.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Boxwell

On Thu, 01 May 2008 23:53:32 -0000, "Melissa Dietrick"
<melissa.dietrick@...> said:




> He did give me one
> little assurance: I told him that I was worried because of her negative
> experiences with
> school the year before. I explained that we dont use the same methods
> nor arrive at the
> same goals as might be done within a school context...he asked for a
> collection of her
> things she has done and they would base the test on that. So I said
> okay.
>
>

Could you pick out a couple of books, literature, and tell him that you
use a book based system and these are your books? Read the books to her
a couple of times and be done?

--Rebecca

Sandra Dodd

-=-Could you pick out a couple of books, literature, and tell him
that you
use a book based system and these are your books? Read the books to her
a couple of times and be done?-=-

Good idea.



You could make a book list along the lines of something Carol Narigon
wrote for her son once:



http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Boxwell

All -

This was sent to me by my mother. :)

<http://www.notonthetest.com/>

--Rebecca


On Fri, 2 May 2008 15:29:17 -0600, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
said:
> -=-Could you pick out a couple of books, literature, and tell him
> that you
> use a book based system and these are your books? Read the books to her
> a couple of times and be done?-=-
>
> Good idea.
>
>
>
> You could make a book list along the lines of something Carol Narigon
> wrote for her son once:
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Could you pick out a couple of books, literature, and tell him
> that you
> use a book based system and these are your books? Read the books to her
> a couple of times and be done?-=-
>
> Good idea.
>
>
>
> You could make a book list along the lines of something Carol Narigon
> wrote for her son once:
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum

hi rebecca, sandra--
I did this. Actually, sandra, I translated both versions of that curriculum outline and mixed
them together. so it was in a Subject outline format, but describing both the concept (not
calling it unschooling, but describing the approach) and then our goals as parents for
supporting our daughter's learning experience. (tried to keep teaching out of it).

then I made the objectives list (school style)

the materials used I kept within the descriptions --I intended to make the long list but my
dds told me I was being redundant.

Sandra, if you want these, I will send them to you, just it isn'tan "exact copy" of that link,
its a hybrid as I like her personal version, but I felt the school would prefer the school
version, so I mixed them together.

like I said, I think this is *my* testing anxiety, more than anything. Im feeling much
calmer now. I do have a tendency to hate not knowing what is going to happen next.
And not knowing if this is just for this year, or will be a constant is roding my mind, as
well. I know there is an element of shantis fear here, but I think If *I* am straight in my
confidence, she will be too. She is a very strong character. but I would not put it passed
her if she up and refused to take the test, when she got there...lol I wonder what would
happen then?

But Ive received alot of ideas here, and at the same time reassurance that it shouldnt be
too bad. Thanks for that.

I will try talking with the principal this coming week, (this past week was national holiday)
and see what he thinks...I d like to see the test before hand...maybe mention directly what
I think about her math capabilities...

ok gotta make breakfast.
thanks again
xxmelissa
in italy

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sandra, if you want these, I will send them to you, just it
isn'tan "exact copy" of that link, -=-

That would be great! Thanks.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca Boxwell" <rebecca@...>
wrote:
>
> All -
>
> This was sent to me by my mother. :)
>
> <http://www.notonthetest.com/>
>
> --Rebecca
>
>
>

Funny in a sad kind of way. It certainly makes me glad my son is at
home with me.

Bob

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Rebecca Boxwell" <rebecca@>
>
> > This was sent to me by my mother. :)
> >
> > <http://www.notonthetest.com/>
> >
> > --Rebecca

>
> Funny in a sad kind of way. It certainly makes me glad my son is at
> home with me.
>
> Bob
>


I just went now, but watched without the volume (computer is in same room with my
sleeping kiddos-too lazy to look for the earphones) I found it way depressing. BUt I guess
that is because dd must take a test. And it is just this aspect that I find so very unnerving.
She *knows* so much, she is so wise, and creative and free, yet she will be tested on just a
bit of knowlege, that is really
stuff adding to she is supposed to have a handle on for the Big Exam in 8th grade. It is so
depressing.

Why do they single out the math the grammar, the ability to write things down coherantly,
especially so early on? Why oh why?

I hoped to finally free us from this stuff, and here I am still having to do tests.
arrrgh!
melissa

Melissa Dietrick

Hi robin,
I thought I had written you but I see that I must have closed witout sending.
you wrote:
> While relaxing your test anxiety is a great idea, I would definitely
> caution you about making assumptions about the motivations of those in
> the school system, for several reasons. Whatever their personal
> motivations, they *are* part of that system, and obliged to defend it.
> And you are the odd one out, however well liked your family is in the
> area. The fact that your older children are also supporters of that
> system (by their actions and even some of their "not deschooled"
> sentiments, as you described) could even work against you, in a worst
> case scenario.

I am thankful for the heads up...I think I was mentioning those aspects for a reason, that I
probably left unsaid: part of me is worried they will decide *I* dont have the capacity to
teach my child. I am thinking this is part of why I am wavering in and out of anxiousness.
I am thinking that this test will reflect on *my* capacity to impart what she learns...so that
is why I was talking about my olderchildren. If I cant, they can (one is already done with
school...)

>
> You know I'm speaking from personal experience here, but I don't think
> it's safe to assume that what others think is best for our children
> will actually be what you or the children think is best.

Oh I dont assume they are agreeing with me! How can I? no one agrees with me! Ive never
met a homeschooled family here in italy yet, except by email, and then thats only 3
directly, and 3 others, indirectly (mentiond by the other 3).

Especially
> since homeschooling seems to be even less accepted there than it is in
> France, the teachers will likely have never even thought about
> unschooling at all, much less embraced it as you have. And if push
> comes to shove, they would likely encourage you to put her in school,
> for her own good. BECAUSE they like kids. BECAUSE based on what they
> have internalized, that is what is best for her. And while that
> wouldn't "ruin her life" in all likelihood, it's certainly not what
> you would consider best for her, right?

Well, they could try to argue that, but since her experience in first grade before pulling her
out had such traumatic consequences for her, I dont think they would ever convince me.
She had wanted to try again for 2nd grade (this is a very tiny elementary school, with only
25 children total, for 5 grades) and because the school mates are our neighbors and
friends, people she knows, she wanted to be with them...so we tried for 5 days. BUt the
school would meet us half way. I insisted to be there till she got past the anxiety, I insisted
that she never be left alone in the hallway (she refuses to enter the class at first), I asked
that the first and second grades be put together (as they usually are, but were not when
she was in first grade, and again, were not in second)...so when they wouldnt meet us for
her needs, we left.


>
> In general, I would suggest that you keep this in mind in your
> dealings with anyone in the system. I don't think paranoid is the way
> to go into it, but neither do I feel that you can believe that you are
> all partners in looking out for your family's welfare. Keep that as
> your and your dh's own personal job, and keep the "well-meaning"
> strangers at arm's length as much as possible.

Yes, this is already our view! I think I am just trying to say that I dont think they are
necessarily "out there to get me"...Though this conversation is not helping me maintain
that view, lol!

Are you homeschooling in France, robin?

thanks again,
melissa

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-including
> understanding the concept of division with and with out
> "resto" (leftover??cant remember
> the term)-=-
>
> remainder

thanks, I really removed that one from my memory!

>
> Most tests are reading tests, even the math parts. You can usually
> eliminate two wrong answers and then it's just a matter of figuring
> out which of the best two it is. Most errors I saw when I was
> teaching and grading tests didn't involve a lack of knowledge. Even
> kids who knew the material well would miss something from reading too
> fast, or only reading half the question.
Sandra,
this is really the part Im not so sure about. In italy, so far, there is no sign of multiple
choice tests. They do oral exams and written exams...the math is like a math worksheet, I
expect. I dont really have a clue. Its only been a few years that they actually do tests on
elementary kids within the school. So i really expect that they will give her some
worksheets. Ask her to write something, read and comprehend, and do some math.

After writing this morning, my dd woke up and I got a reminder of why I am so worried.
She had a bad experience entering in the first grade. We have always done a gentle entry
for our children, letting them stay home when ever they wished, and with Shanti, she
seemed okay at first. But bit by bit things added up (wont go into details here) and by
November she was staying home more than she was going. After the xmas holidays, we
pulled her out, but not without her having paid for our tardiness...she had nightmares for
months and months. So this morning, I remembered this, because she had a nightmare
again just before waking...

And so my fears are more from the gut, I think and the rest is the cover, maybe? I m
scared that this will cause her pain. But Im also afraid to ask them to hold off on the test
for her...boh Im stuck. Sometimes Im thinking if I could just shake the fear of everything,
the whole thing will flow without a problem.

so my question does remain however, about the test, how will this effect her experience of
whole learning, rather than fragmented learning? And should I give her a little "prepping"
so that she doesnt feel any sort of overwhelming "I dont get this, what is it they want from
me?"

--
melissa
in italy
mamma di 7
lucia 20yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 13yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 7yr, giacomo leo 4yr and gioele 2y

"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- I'll meet you there."

Rumi

http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu

Ed Wendell

Would she understand if you had a conversation with her about how she has to take this test just to keep them happy so she can continue to stay at home? Just make it a "it's really not a big deal, you will do as well as you can and get it over with, kind of conversation." That you'll do something special afterwards to celebrate that it is over and she gets to stay home. Tell her you'd rather she not have to take the test (so she knows you are on her side) but it is unavoidable so we will do it and not make anything of it. Let her know you and dad think she is wonderful exactly where she is and you know she is doing well in life - living and learning through living her interests but to continue on this path they have this test - maybe not even call it a test - just call it something different - perhaps call it "they want to go over some things with you and ask you some questions."

Could you approach it from a playful aspect: It's just a silly little rule they have about children that don't go to school. Skip around / dance around before or afterwards. Do something special together - go get an ice-cream cone (or what ever would be special to her). Put on her favorite music and have a party / celebration afterwards? Put the focus on FUN ? Spend a lot of time planning together this special event so that she focuses on the FUN.


I'm rambling and throwing out some thoughts on how to approach it with your child. Maybe some of my ramblings might help stimulate your own thoughts as you know your daughter best.

It does sound as if you both get stressed easily, so I was trying to come up with some gentle ways to approach this.

Lisa W.






----- Original Message -----
From: Melissa Dietrick


And should I give her a little "prepping" so that she doesnt feel any sort of overwhelming "I dont get this, what is it they want from me?"

--
melissa
in italy
mamma di 7
lucia 20yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 13yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 7yr, giacomo leo 4yr and gioele 2y

"
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-so my question does remain however, about the test, how will this
effect her experience of
whole learning, rather than fragmented learning? -=-

It will be part of her personal life, and her personal learning. I
think unschooling is way more fragmented than school-subject
learning, and in all kinds of GOOD ways! I don't think whole vs.
fragmented is a good way to divide the world.

-=-And should I give her a little "prepping" so that she doesnt feel
any sort of overwhelming "I dont get this, what is it they want from
me?"-=-

How much prep does she want?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Melissa Dietrick"
<melissa.dietrick@...> wrote:
>
> She *knows* so much, she is so wise, and creative and free, yet
she will be tested on just a
> bit of knowlege,

I got into a discussion about this sort of thing with my mother
recently. Everyone is pushing my 17yo to take the GED exam. My mom
got online and did a couple of practice problems just to see what
the test was like. She said at least one of the questions wasn't
about finding the answer to the problem but picking the correct
formula. I said that I didn't think that was something that should
be tested. It seems more important that one can find the answer than
how exactly they go about doing it. She said they have to test for
that sort of thing to make sure you aren't just guessing the correct
answer by dumb luck. She said there was only one way to find the
right answer so one needs to know that one way. I said that if there
really was only one way to find the correct answer and one found it,
than one must know and be able to use the formula. In real life, how
many of us sit down with a problem and say, "Ok. I need to use this
formula to find the answer to this problem,"? We don't. We just work
it out however we do that. My mom got very angry with me about that.
It seemed to me her argument was supporting my point even more.

Not sure where I'm going with this. Just something that came up
recently that's got me thinking.

Alysia

Bob Collier

I was watching a TV show from the UK recently called The Einstein
Factor. There are two teams of three - one is a resident team of
'brains', the other team is made up of members of the public who are
competing against each other for the highest score, the winner each
week then goes through to the next round. The underlying implication
seemed to be that the member of the public who wins this competition
and takes home the Einstein Factor trophy has proven themselves to be
as brainy as the resident panel of brains. I think so - it was the one
and only time I've watched the show.

And what a crock it is. It's a remember or guess quiz show in which
the contestants are given three answers to choose from. The panel of
'brains' gets its chance to remember or guess first and then their
answer is compared to the answers the contestants' go for. A, B or C?

There was one particular question about Body Shop founder Anita
Roddick. Her parents came from which country? Is it (a) Italy, (b)
Croatia or (c) Greece? I think the third option was Greece. So the
panel of brains starts into this line of thinking about how Roddick
sounds Croatian and immigrants often Anglicise their family names,
perhaps Anita Roddick's family added the k after coming to England -
not even considering that Roddick might only be her surname by
marriage. So I'm shaking my head as the brains go for Croatia and so
does the other team and everybody gets it wrong and I say to my wife,
who was watching with me and used to be a Body Shop consultant, "I
thought everybody knew Anita Roddick's parents were Italian." Her
maiden name was Perilli, which, of course, if anybody had remembered
that, would have been a give away. So who were the brains on this
occasion - the alleged clever people on The Einstein Factor or the
tens of thousands of people who are familiar with Anita Roddick's
biography?

The point of my story, though, is that it had little to do with any
'Einstein Factor'. Remembering or guessing which is the right answer
out of three given possibilities is more like a 'Monkey with a Pin
Factor'. Not particularly useful in the real world.

Something not totally unrelated that's on *my* mind right now. :-)

Bob






--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Melissa Dietrick"
> <melissa.dietrick@> wrote:
> >
> > She *knows* so much, she is so wise, and creative and free, yet
> she will be tested on just a
> > bit of knowlege,
>
> I got into a discussion about this sort of thing with my mother
> recently. Everyone is pushing my 17yo to take the GED exam. My mom
> got online and did a couple of practice problems just to see what
> the test was like. She said at least one of the questions wasn't
> about finding the answer to the problem but picking the correct
> formula. I said that I didn't think that was something that should
> be tested. It seems more important that one can find the answer than
> how exactly they go about doing it. She said they have to test for
> that sort of thing to make sure you aren't just guessing the correct
> answer by dumb luck. She said there was only one way to find the
> right answer so one needs to know that one way. I said that if there
> really was only one way to find the correct answer and one found it,
> than one must know and be able to use the formula. In real life, how
> many of us sit down with a problem and say, "Ok. I need to use this
> formula to find the answer to this problem,"? We don't. We just work
> it out however we do that. My mom got very angry with me about that.
> It seemed to me her argument was supporting my point even more.
>
> Not sure where I'm going with this. Just something that came up
> recently that's got me thinking.
>
> Alysia
>