introduction and a question
Lyla Wolfenstein
Greetings,
I have been reading on this list for about 2 months, and I am finally
getting around to introducing myself, and posing a question.
I am new to unschooling in my own family, but not new to the concepts,
having several of my closest friends who have unschooled since day 1.
My son is 9.5 and was in alternative school settings until recently (a
"democratic" charter school, and then a "free"school.) he finally led
the way toward the switch to unschooling with his adamance that he was
never going back to school! i am grateful to him for his strong
personality!
I do have an older daughter (13) who *is* in school, and loves it, and
has no desire to leave school, so our lives are complicated, to say
the least.
my question is about how to talk with my son about unschooling. he is
not really aware of the concept, although is aware of "home schooling"
and seems really conflicted, in his own mind, about how things are
"working out." he has a tendency to be very negative about his own
"follow through" and is in a phase right now of pining for something
he is passionate about, but not being able to figure out what that is,
and feeling frustrated with himself about that. so he is now applying
that frustration/disappointment with *himself* to "home schooling" -
saying things like "it seems so right for me, but it just isn't
working - i don't know what to LEARN" and before that "when are we
going to START home schooling - we really need to start!'
but when i respond with "what did you have in mind?" and "lots of kids
learn all the time just from doing interesting things in life, i am
not worried about you needing specific lessons in anything, until and
unless you have a specific question or interest in something - then we
can learn all about it" - he doesn't seem satisfied, and seems a bit
fixated on the need to have tangible learning. so i have offered to
"do some math" or anything else he'd like with him, but he declines.
i am not really asking how to go about unschooling - more - how do
others talk about the concepts with their kids, especially kids who
*have* been in school, (and maybe have a sibling in school- even
college...) and therefore have this contrast to grapple with. i will
say he is a kid who is *constantly* asking questions, absorbing ideas,
etc. but he just doesn't see that as learning...i look forward to
hearing how other kids have moved through this process.
warmly, Lyla
I have been reading on this list for about 2 months, and I am finally
getting around to introducing myself, and posing a question.
I am new to unschooling in my own family, but not new to the concepts,
having several of my closest friends who have unschooled since day 1.
My son is 9.5 and was in alternative school settings until recently (a
"democratic" charter school, and then a "free"school.) he finally led
the way toward the switch to unschooling with his adamance that he was
never going back to school! i am grateful to him for his strong
personality!
I do have an older daughter (13) who *is* in school, and loves it, and
has no desire to leave school, so our lives are complicated, to say
the least.
my question is about how to talk with my son about unschooling. he is
not really aware of the concept, although is aware of "home schooling"
and seems really conflicted, in his own mind, about how things are
"working out." he has a tendency to be very negative about his own
"follow through" and is in a phase right now of pining for something
he is passionate about, but not being able to figure out what that is,
and feeling frustrated with himself about that. so he is now applying
that frustration/disappointment with *himself* to "home schooling" -
saying things like "it seems so right for me, but it just isn't
working - i don't know what to LEARN" and before that "when are we
going to START home schooling - we really need to start!'
but when i respond with "what did you have in mind?" and "lots of kids
learn all the time just from doing interesting things in life, i am
not worried about you needing specific lessons in anything, until and
unless you have a specific question or interest in something - then we
can learn all about it" - he doesn't seem satisfied, and seems a bit
fixated on the need to have tangible learning. so i have offered to
"do some math" or anything else he'd like with him, but he declines.
i am not really asking how to go about unschooling - more - how do
others talk about the concepts with their kids, especially kids who
*have* been in school, (and maybe have a sibling in school- even
college...) and therefore have this contrast to grapple with. i will
say he is a kid who is *constantly* asking questions, absorbing ideas,
etc. but he just doesn't see that as learning...i look forward to
hearing how other kids have moved through this process.
warmly, Lyla
Joylyn
If your son is reading yet, then have him read about unschooling. If he isn't reading, then I'd read to him. I'd also find some other unschoolers in your area, hopefully about the same age...
Joylyn
---- Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:
Joylyn
---- Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I have been reading on this list for about 2 months, and I am finally
> getting around to introducing myself, and posing a question.
>
> I am new to unschooling in my own family, but not new to the concepts,
> having several of my closest friends who have unschooled since day 1.
>
> My son is 9.5 and was in alternative school settings until recently (a
> "democratic" charter school, and then a "free"school.) he finally led
> the way toward the switch to unschooling with his adamance that he was
> never going back to school! i am grateful to him for his strong
> personality!
>
> I do have an older daughter (13) who *is* in school, and loves it, and
> has no desire to leave school, so our lives are complicated, to say
> the least.
>
> my question is about how to talk with my son about unschooling. he is
> not really aware of the concept, although is aware of "home schooling"
> and seems really conflicted, in his own mind, about how things are
> "working out." he has a tendency to be very negative about his own
> "follow through" and is in a phase right now of pining for something
> he is passionate about, but not being able to figure out what that is,
> and feeling frustrated with himself about that. so he is now applying
> that frustration/disappointment with *himself* to "home schooling" -
> saying things like "it seems so right for me, but it just isn't
> working - i don't know what to LEARN" and before that "when are we
> going to START home schooling - we really need to start!'
>
> but when i respond with "what did you have in mind?" and "lots of kids
> learn all the time just from doing interesting things in life, i am
> not worried about you needing specific lessons in anything, until and
> unless you have a specific question or interest in something - then we
> can learn all about it" - he doesn't seem satisfied, and seems a bit
> fixated on the need to have tangible learning. so i have offered to
> "do some math" or anything else he'd like with him, but he declines.
>
> i am not really asking how to go about unschooling - more - how do
> others talk about the concepts with their kids, especially kids who
> *have* been in school, (and maybe have a sibling in school- even
> college...) and therefore have this contrast to grapple with. i will
> say he is a kid who is *constantly* asking questions, absorbing ideas,
> etc. but he just doesn't see that as learning...i look forward to
> hearing how other kids have moved through this process.
>
> warmly, Lyla
>
Joanna Murphy
I'd also find some other unschoolers in your area, hopefully about the same age...
...or the same interests. :-)
Joanna
...or the same interests. :-)
Joanna
Joanna Murphy
It seems to me that part of the solution might be found in deschooling. It will take some
time, even coming from a free school (and taking into account the fact that his sister is
still in school) to move away from the thinking of how learning needs to look.
If he's asking about unschooling, then having him read about it is a great idea, but if he's
not, then just concentrating on looking for the activities that he's excited about and filling
his days with interesting stuff will start to fill him with new energy. In other words, just
doing it. As he starts to really just live his life, one of two things may happen: 1. He will
start focusing on other stuff and stop worrying about the nuts and bolts, or 2. He will
start to have his own experiences with unschooling--making connections, delving deeply
into an interest that may lead to another interest, meeting people interested in the stuff
he is and having great conversations about his interests, etc.
In other words, even if the worries are still there he will be living his life, and eventually
the connections can be made and the worries replaced. At this point, with things so new,
he has no experiences to back up your confidence, and having him read a bunch of theory
may not help, because he's still operating at a concrete level where actions speak louder
than words. I suspect his worries may stem from having it not really work out for him at
the free school. Maybe his rhythm of learning really didn't fit there, but at home, you'll be
able to really support him. A free school--as great as some people find them--still
doesn't have a deeply connected parent partner. I'm just guessing here, but maybe it's too
overwhelming to some younger children to be put in a situation, without parents, where
self-sufficiency or self-motivation is expected and they don't feel ready for it. Maybe you
guys need to deschool others' expectations.
Joanna
time, even coming from a free school (and taking into account the fact that his sister is
still in school) to move away from the thinking of how learning needs to look.
If he's asking about unschooling, then having him read about it is a great idea, but if he's
not, then just concentrating on looking for the activities that he's excited about and filling
his days with interesting stuff will start to fill him with new energy. In other words, just
doing it. As he starts to really just live his life, one of two things may happen: 1. He will
start focusing on other stuff and stop worrying about the nuts and bolts, or 2. He will
start to have his own experiences with unschooling--making connections, delving deeply
into an interest that may lead to another interest, meeting people interested in the stuff
he is and having great conversations about his interests, etc.
In other words, even if the worries are still there he will be living his life, and eventually
the connections can be made and the worries replaced. At this point, with things so new,
he has no experiences to back up your confidence, and having him read a bunch of theory
may not help, because he's still operating at a concrete level where actions speak louder
than words. I suspect his worries may stem from having it not really work out for him at
the free school. Maybe his rhythm of learning really didn't fit there, but at home, you'll be
able to really support him. A free school--as great as some people find them--still
doesn't have a deeply connected parent partner. I'm just guessing here, but maybe it's too
overwhelming to some younger children to be put in a situation, without parents, where
self-sufficiency or self-motivation is expected and they don't feel ready for it. Maybe you
guys need to deschool others' expectations.
Joanna
Lyla Wolfenstein
yes, thanks for the reminder. i think deschooling is a big part of
it, as are all the other factors you mentioned. things change so
rapidly around here, that i fully imagine that he will be in a
different place each day, week, month, in terms of his concerns,
expectations, etc. of *himself*.
i was just curious what others had experienced with previously
schooled kids, when you began unschooling, regarding the actual
discussion of the approach of unschooling with them, vs just *doing*
it. it seems in some ways that discussing it at all normalizes
school, to some degree, and keeps things in that paradigm. but
perhaps in this culture of school, *not* discussing the paradigm shift
also maintains the "dominant paradigm." just grappling with those
questions, and wondering what others may have noticed with slightly
older kids who have the experience of school as being something that's
"done."
thanks again for the reminders about deschooling, though - very
pertinent, for sure!
Lyla
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...>
wrote:
it, as are all the other factors you mentioned. things change so
rapidly around here, that i fully imagine that he will be in a
different place each day, week, month, in terms of his concerns,
expectations, etc. of *himself*.
i was just curious what others had experienced with previously
schooled kids, when you began unschooling, regarding the actual
discussion of the approach of unschooling with them, vs just *doing*
it. it seems in some ways that discussing it at all normalizes
school, to some degree, and keeps things in that paradigm. but
perhaps in this culture of school, *not* discussing the paradigm shift
also maintains the "dominant paradigm." just grappling with those
questions, and wondering what others may have noticed with slightly
older kids who have the experience of school as being something that's
"done."
thanks again for the reminders about deschooling, though - very
pertinent, for sure!
Lyla
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...>
wrote:
>deschooling. It will take some
> It seems to me that part of the solution might be found in
> time, even coming from a free school (and taking into account thefact that his sister is
> still in school) to move away from the thinking of how learningneeds to look.
>
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
conversation first.
Joanna
>We just started, and then conversation has come up as it has come up--we didn't focus on
conversation first.
Joanna
Lyla Wolfenstein
ok, thanks, glad to hear it - that is pretty much how everything goes around here, generally, so it makes sense that approach to education wouldn't be any different! i imagine it would depend a lot on the child too - if it had been my daughter, i think she would have been very interested in the "philosophy" end of it and would have wanted/needed to understand the nuts and bolts of the "plan." i always have to remind myself that my son doesn't require or WANT the words words words about everything. but i think sometimes he needs a few, for reassurance, to disrupt any "negative" words within his own mind and plant seeds or optimism/opportunity...
Lyla
- Original Message -----
From: Joanna Murphy
We just started, and then conversation has come up as it has come up--we didn't focus on
conversation first.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla
- Original Message -----
From: Joanna Murphy
We just started, and then conversation has come up as it has come up--we didn't focus on
conversation first.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Queana
We¹re just a couple months in, but moving from schooling at home to
unschooling did require some conversation as in, why aren¹t you making us
do our schoolwork? So we talked about the different ways they learn, how
much they already know and how much of it came from schoolwork vs. life. It
helps that I was homeschooled, and was left alone educationally after about
12. I did not do¹ jr. high or high school, just went to college. It makes
it easier for me (and my husband) that my kids are 8 and 13 and already know
the basics¹. Not that I¹m glad it happened that way but it does make it an
easier argument. Fortunately, they still love learning other than my 13
y.o. did develop a dislike of math that will hopefully dissipate! Poor guy
was pushing (being pushed) through algebra when I suddenly realized, why the
hell does a 13 year old need to know algebra? I learned it in college, and
only used it because I taught it for several years.
The kids acted like it was Christmas when they heard they wouldn¹t have to
do schoolwork and have remained very happy and satisfied with that choice.
We are definitely still in the deschooling process. My 8 year old, having
experienced far less school than my 13 year old, is much farther along. My
13 year old, although he loves to read and reads tons of fiction and
non-fiction, as well as being online, playing lots of games, etc., he seems
to still be suspicious of things that I offer sometimes, assuming I am
trying to trick him into doing schoolwork somehow lol. I try to really make
sure things I offer him right now are very lighthearted, such as getting the
Garfield comics he likes from the library and nothing else (for him). My 8
y.o. loves it when I bring him books/videos on science (his passion), but my
13 yo would view it with suspicion still.
On the other hand, I have noticed the biggest changes in the demeanor of the
13 yo, a definite lightness and joy that were dissipating a few short months
ago. I was actually starting to worry about depression; it runs in the
family! But by releasing my last vestiges of control (I really didn¹t think
I had many, we were quite the laid back family anyway!) I can see that he is
as peaceful and satisfied as anybody could hope to be! It is so strange
that merely dropping two hours worth of schoolwork creates such a difference
in how he feels he can spend his time. Before, he would sleep in and stay
in bed as long as possible, and then drag the schoolwork out until
afternoon. When it was finally over with, he would spend as much time as
possible playing games, and not want to go anywhere that would cut into his
game time. Now he gets up quite a bit earlier, plays as soon as he feels
like it, reads when he feels like it, watches tv when he feels like it, and
has picked up the guitar.
I never expected him to play an instrument because, although we are a
musical family and I thought he would be good at it, I figured he would
never be interested in putting in the time that it takes. In January we
found a music teacher that came weekly for lessons (drums for one, guitar
for one and bass for one). The kids wanted the lessons. I did not make
them practice, and they didn¹t practice much at all. Suddenly, when the
schoolwork stopped, my 13 yo (who had been having bass lessons) picked up
the guitar and started playing it, sometimes for hours every day! This has
continued for about 4 weeks now and he is becoming quite good. He plays a
lot of the songs they know from Guitar Hero and Rock Band on a whole
nother topic, it¹s amazing the interest in music those games have sparked
around here.
Sorry for the looooong response, but in answer to your question about
experience with previously schooled kids... Living in a world where school
is the default for kids, and especially having one still in school (which I
do too!) I think it is important to talk about the choices you are making,
and especially about why they are the best choices. I think it can seem to
kids like you just don¹t care or are too involved with other things if you
just don¹t have them do any schoolwork without discussing it. I know that¹s
how I felt about my parents (though it was probably true in that case; I
don¹t think they were consciously unschooling).
Sarah
unschooling did require some conversation as in, why aren¹t you making us
do our schoolwork? So we talked about the different ways they learn, how
much they already know and how much of it came from schoolwork vs. life. It
helps that I was homeschooled, and was left alone educationally after about
12. I did not do¹ jr. high or high school, just went to college. It makes
it easier for me (and my husband) that my kids are 8 and 13 and already know
the basics¹. Not that I¹m glad it happened that way but it does make it an
easier argument. Fortunately, they still love learning other than my 13
y.o. did develop a dislike of math that will hopefully dissipate! Poor guy
was pushing (being pushed) through algebra when I suddenly realized, why the
hell does a 13 year old need to know algebra? I learned it in college, and
only used it because I taught it for several years.
The kids acted like it was Christmas when they heard they wouldn¹t have to
do schoolwork and have remained very happy and satisfied with that choice.
We are definitely still in the deschooling process. My 8 year old, having
experienced far less school than my 13 year old, is much farther along. My
13 year old, although he loves to read and reads tons of fiction and
non-fiction, as well as being online, playing lots of games, etc., he seems
to still be suspicious of things that I offer sometimes, assuming I am
trying to trick him into doing schoolwork somehow lol. I try to really make
sure things I offer him right now are very lighthearted, such as getting the
Garfield comics he likes from the library and nothing else (for him). My 8
y.o. loves it when I bring him books/videos on science (his passion), but my
13 yo would view it with suspicion still.
On the other hand, I have noticed the biggest changes in the demeanor of the
13 yo, a definite lightness and joy that were dissipating a few short months
ago. I was actually starting to worry about depression; it runs in the
family! But by releasing my last vestiges of control (I really didn¹t think
I had many, we were quite the laid back family anyway!) I can see that he is
as peaceful and satisfied as anybody could hope to be! It is so strange
that merely dropping two hours worth of schoolwork creates such a difference
in how he feels he can spend his time. Before, he would sleep in and stay
in bed as long as possible, and then drag the schoolwork out until
afternoon. When it was finally over with, he would spend as much time as
possible playing games, and not want to go anywhere that would cut into his
game time. Now he gets up quite a bit earlier, plays as soon as he feels
like it, reads when he feels like it, watches tv when he feels like it, and
has picked up the guitar.
I never expected him to play an instrument because, although we are a
musical family and I thought he would be good at it, I figured he would
never be interested in putting in the time that it takes. In January we
found a music teacher that came weekly for lessons (drums for one, guitar
for one and bass for one). The kids wanted the lessons. I did not make
them practice, and they didn¹t practice much at all. Suddenly, when the
schoolwork stopped, my 13 yo (who had been having bass lessons) picked up
the guitar and started playing it, sometimes for hours every day! This has
continued for about 4 weeks now and he is becoming quite good. He plays a
lot of the songs they know from Guitar Hero and Rock Band on a whole
nother topic, it¹s amazing the interest in music those games have sparked
around here.
Sorry for the looooong response, but in answer to your question about
experience with previously schooled kids... Living in a world where school
is the default for kids, and especially having one still in school (which I
do too!) I think it is important to talk about the choices you are making,
and especially about why they are the best choices. I think it can seem to
kids like you just don¹t care or are too involved with other things if you
just don¹t have them do any schoolwork without discussing it. I know that¹s
how I felt about my parents (though it was probably true in that case; I
don¹t think they were consciously unschooling).
Sarah
On 4/27/08 7:57 PM, "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> yes, thanks for the reminder. i think deschooling is a big part of
> it, as are all the other factors you mentioned. things change so
> rapidly around here, that i fully imagine that he will be in a
> different place each day, week, month, in terms of his concerns,
> expectations, etc. of *himself*.
>
> i was just curious what others had experienced with previously
> schooled kids, when you began unschooling, regarding the actual
> discussion of the approach of unschooling with them, vs just *doing*
> it. it seems in some ways that discussing it at all normalizes
> school, to some degree, and keeps things in that paradigm. but
> perhaps in this culture of school, *not* discussing the paradigm shift
> also maintains the "dominant paradigm." just grappling with those
> questions, and wondering what others may have noticed with slightly
> older kids who have the experience of school as being something that's
> "done."
>
> thanks again for the reminders about deschooling, though - very
> pertinent, for sure!
>
> Lyla
>
> --- In [email protected]
> <mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com> , "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...>
> wrote:
>> >
>> > It seems to me that part of the solution might be found in
> deschooling. It will take some
>> > time, even coming from a free school (and taking into account the
> fact that his sister is
>> > still in school) to move away from the thinking of how learning
> needs to look.
>> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
yes, that makes sense, thanks. i think we may be fortunate in this regard, in that, because he went to quite "alternative" schools, school "work" was never a big thing on his radar. it was the attendance, primarily, and the groups and classes he participated in *in* school, the absence of which make the biggest impact - but no home work to speak of... and actually, at the free school, he didn't *participate* in any groups or classes, so the transition may have been eased into by that experience, however he was at the charter school for 3.5 years, and only at the free school for 2 months, so perhaps not long enough to make much of an imperssion.
----- Original Message -----
From: Queana
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: introduction and a question
Sorry for the looooong response, but in answer to your question about
experience with previously schooled kids... Living in a world where school
is the default for kids, and especially having one still in school (which I
do too!) I think it is important to talk about the choices you are making,
and especially about why they are the best choices. I think it can seem to
kids like you just don¹t care or are too involved with other things if you
just don¹t have them do any schoolwork without discussing it. I know that¹s
how I felt about my parents (though it was probably true in that case; I
don¹t think they were consciously unschooling).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
I'm really grateful that this topic has been posted and so well put.
I've been struggling a bit lately with my 10 y.o. son who was in public
school until January of this year. At first I did try assignments and
worksheets and reviews and such. And it was a constant, constant
battle. I realized I was just continuing at home what he'd been doing
at school and that was defeating the purpose of pulling him out of
school in the first place. He is not an "inside the box" thinker (me
either). So, we decided to experiment, if you will, with unschooling
for a while. I first had to understand what it was, and I had it
confused with deschooling. I understand the difference now, but still
think he and I need a bit more deschooling.
We are learning that we can learn on our own without someone else's
structure or schedule on what they think we should know and by when.
And by "we" I mean me as well. I have forgotten so much of what was
crammed into my head years ago - I explained it to Blake as a pump and
dump method: pumping your memory full of the information on an upcoming
test and then dumping it after the test was over. The things that stick
are the things we WANT to learn, want to know about and want to
remember. He gets that. He couldn't care less right now about naming
the parts of a sentence, yet he has perfect sentence structure (due to
reading and not being talked down to at home, I'm sure). He hates to
try to sit and do multiplication (so I found out very early on) but can
calculate in his mind how much money he needs to save for whatever it is
he is wanting and how long it will take to save it.
We did finally "get" that when an interest pops up in something and we
don't know all of the components, we can research and learn it then.
Things begin to roll and click and that's so fascinating to see.
However, I don't know how to combat boredom for him - dealing with that
right now. Maybe it's spring fever? But he is very clear that he'd
rather be bored at home than bored at school. At least here he can
actively look for something else to do instead of sitting at a desk
miserable out of his mind.
Julie
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...>
wrote:
"work" was never a big thing on his radar. it was the attendance,
primarily, and the groups and classes he participated in *in* school,
the absence of which make the biggest impact - but no home work to speak
of... and actually, at the free school, he didn't *participate* in any
groups or classes, so the transition may have been eased into by that
experience, however he was at the charter school for 3.5 years, and only
at the free school for 2 months, so perhaps not long enough to make much
of an imperssion.
I've been struggling a bit lately with my 10 y.o. son who was in public
school until January of this year. At first I did try assignments and
worksheets and reviews and such. And it was a constant, constant
battle. I realized I was just continuing at home what he'd been doing
at school and that was defeating the purpose of pulling him out of
school in the first place. He is not an "inside the box" thinker (me
either). So, we decided to experiment, if you will, with unschooling
for a while. I first had to understand what it was, and I had it
confused with deschooling. I understand the difference now, but still
think he and I need a bit more deschooling.
We are learning that we can learn on our own without someone else's
structure or schedule on what they think we should know and by when.
And by "we" I mean me as well. I have forgotten so much of what was
crammed into my head years ago - I explained it to Blake as a pump and
dump method: pumping your memory full of the information on an upcoming
test and then dumping it after the test was over. The things that stick
are the things we WANT to learn, want to know about and want to
remember. He gets that. He couldn't care less right now about naming
the parts of a sentence, yet he has perfect sentence structure (due to
reading and not being talked down to at home, I'm sure). He hates to
try to sit and do multiplication (so I found out very early on) but can
calculate in his mind how much money he needs to save for whatever it is
he is wanting and how long it will take to save it.
We did finally "get" that when an interest pops up in something and we
don't know all of the components, we can research and learn it then.
Things begin to roll and click and that's so fascinating to see.
However, I don't know how to combat boredom for him - dealing with that
right now. Maybe it's spring fever? But he is very clear that he'd
rather be bored at home than bored at school. At least here he can
actively look for something else to do instead of sitting at a desk
miserable out of his mind.
Julie
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...>
wrote:
>regard, in that, because he went to quite "alternative" schools, school
>
> yes, that makes sense, thanks. i think we may be fortunate in this
"work" was never a big thing on his radar. it was the attendance,
primarily, and the groups and classes he participated in *in* school,
the absence of which make the biggest impact - but no home work to speak
of... and actually, at the free school, he didn't *participate* in any
groups or classes, so the transition may have been eased into by that
experience, however he was at the charter school for 3.5 years, and only
at the free school for 2 months, so perhaps not long enough to make much
of an imperssion.
>school
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Queana
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:54 AM
> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: introduction and a question
>
>
>
>
> Sorry for the looooong response, but in answer to your question about
> experience with previously schooled kids... Living in a world where
> is the default for kids, and especially having one still in school(which I
> do too!) I think it is important to talk about the choices you aremaking,
> and especially about why they are the best choices. I think it canseem to
> kids like you just don¹t care or are too involved with other thingsif you
> just don¹t have them do any schoolwork without discussing it. Iknow that¹s
> how I felt about my parents (though it was probably true in that case;I
> don¹t think they were consciously unschooling).[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Recent Activity
> a.. 9New Members
> b.. 1New Links
> Visit Your Group
> Biz Resources
> Y! Small Business
>
> Articles, tools,
>
> forms, and more.
>
> Give Things.
> Get Things.
>
> It's free and it's
>
> good for the planet.
>
> Moderator Central
> Get answers to
>
> your questions about
>
> running Y! Groups.
> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
DJ250
Julie,
It's ok to be bored. Being bored means you look around for what may interest you! Not that it's a pleasant part of life but it creeps in now and then. Just keep following his lead as well as looking around for fun and interesting activities, classes, etc, bearing in mind that these should be interesting to HIM. Congratulations on getting him out of school and being so daring and open to unschooling--it's fabulous!
I'd also suggest that kids who have been in school are used to having their day planned FOR them and so they aren't really sure what to do with so much free time. He probably just needs to get used to the new way of things--and his freedom!
~Melissa :)
It's ok to be bored. Being bored means you look around for what may interest you! Not that it's a pleasant part of life but it creeps in now and then. Just keep following his lead as well as looking around for fun and interesting activities, classes, etc, bearing in mind that these should be interesting to HIM. Congratulations on getting him out of school and being so daring and open to unschooling--it's fabulous!
I'd also suggest that kids who have been in school are used to having their day planned FOR them and so they aren't really sure what to do with so much free time. He probably just needs to get used to the new way of things--and his freedom!
~Melissa :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: introduction and a question
I'm really grateful that this topic has been posted and so well put.
I've been struggling a bit lately with my 10 y.o. son who was in public
school until January of this year. At first I did try assignments and
worksheets and reviews and such. And it was a constant, constant
battle. I realized I was just continuing at home what he'd been doing
at school and that was defeating the purpose of pulling him out of
school in the first place. He is not an "inside the box" thinker (me
either). So, we decided to experiment, if you will, with unschooling
for a while. I first had to understand what it was, and I had it
confused with deschooling. I understand the difference now, but still
think he and I need a bit more deschooling.
We are learning that we can learn on our own without someone else's
structure or schedule on what they think we should know and by when.
And by "we" I mean me as well. I have forgotten so much of what was
crammed into my head years ago - I explained it to Blake as a pump and
dump method: pumping your memory full of the information on an upcoming
test and then dumping it after the test was over. The things that stick
are the things we WANT to learn, want to know about and want to
remember. He gets that. He couldn't care less right now about naming
the parts of a sentence, yet he has perfect sentence structure (due to
reading and not being talked down to at home, I'm sure). He hates to
try to sit and do multiplication (so I found out very early on) but can
calculate in his mind how much money he needs to save for whatever it is
he is wanting and how long it will take to save it.
We did finally "get" that when an interest pops up in something and we
don't know all of the components, we can research and learn it then.
Things begin to roll and click and that's so fascinating to see.
However, I don't know how to combat boredom for him - dealing with that
right now. Maybe it's spring fever? But he is very clear that he'd
rather be bored at home than bored at school. At least here he can
actively look for something else to do instead of sitting at a desk
miserable out of his mind.
Julie
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...>
wrote:
>
>
> yes, that makes sense, thanks. i think we may be fortunate in this
regard, in that, because he went to quite "alternative" schools, school
"work" was never a big thing on his radar. it was the attendance,
primarily, and the groups and classes he participated in *in* school,
the absence of which make the biggest impact - but no home work to speak
of... and actually, at the free school, he didn't *participate* in any
groups or classes, so the transition may have been eased into by that
experience, however he was at the charter school for 3.5 years, and only
at the free school for 2 months, so perhaps not long enough to make much
of an imperssion.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Queana
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:54 AM
> Subject: [SPAM]Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: introduction and a question
>
>
>
>
> Sorry for the looooong response, but in answer to your question about
> experience with previously schooled kids... Living in a world where
school
> is the default for kids, and especially having one still in school
(which I
> do too!) I think it is important to talk about the choices you are
making,
> and especially about why they are the best choices. I think it can
seem to
> kids like you just don¹t care or are too involved with other things
if you
> just don¹t have them do any schoolwork without discussing it. I
know that¹s
> how I felt about my parents (though it was probably true in that case;
I
> don¹t think they were consciously unschooling).
> Recent Activity
> a.. 9New Members
> b.. 1New Links
> Visit Your Group
> Biz Resources
> Y! Small Business
>
> Articles, tools,
>
> forms, and more.
>
> Give Things.
> Get Things.
>
> It's free and it's
>
> good for the planet.
>
> Moderator Central
> Get answers to
>
> your questions about
>
> running Y! Groups.
> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Checked by AVG.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...>
wrote:
never had a conversation about what unschooling is or isn't. I never
use the term in my offline world. We just live our lives and learn
stuff. And, because I'm rather obsessive about self-education myself,
there's an awareness of 'educational' stuff in the household all the
time, but without it necessarily being talked about as 'educational'
stuff. In that respect, probably the most well-worn topics of
conversation are, "I'll google that." and "Where did you learn that?
No, wait. Let me guess. From a cartoon?"
Apart from one time a couple of years ago when she thought he might be
interested in taking a second look at school (a different school to
the one he went to), and took him along to the school's Open Day, my
son's ten years older always schooled sister has simply got on with
her own life. When she was at home (she moved out about two years ago
to share a house with some fellow students), that was a fascinating
juxtaposition of lifestyles. My daughter working on university
assignments, my son playing videogames. Actually, my daughter has been
rather wonderful about all that considering her own almost 18 years
in total of formal education. She's followed her own chosen path and
worked on achieving her goals and seems to have appreciated that what
was right for her wasn't necessarily right for her brother.
Now that my daughter has graduated from university this year, it's the
first time both of my children have been 'out of school'. Which is
kind of like the beginning of a new era.
Bob
wrote:
>In the more than five years since my son quit school, he and I have
>
> i am not really asking how to go about unschooling - more - how do
> others talk about the concepts with their kids, especially kids who
> *have* been in school, (and maybe have a sibling in school- even
> college...) and therefore have this contrast to grapple with.
never had a conversation about what unschooling is or isn't. I never
use the term in my offline world. We just live our lives and learn
stuff. And, because I'm rather obsessive about self-education myself,
there's an awareness of 'educational' stuff in the household all the
time, but without it necessarily being talked about as 'educational'
stuff. In that respect, probably the most well-worn topics of
conversation are, "I'll google that." and "Where did you learn that?
No, wait. Let me guess. From a cartoon?"
Apart from one time a couple of years ago when she thought he might be
interested in taking a second look at school (a different school to
the one he went to), and took him along to the school's Open Day, my
son's ten years older always schooled sister has simply got on with
her own life. When she was at home (she moved out about two years ago
to share a house with some fellow students), that was a fascinating
juxtaposition of lifestyles. My daughter working on university
assignments, my son playing videogames. Actually, my daughter has been
rather wonderful about all that considering her own almost 18 years
in total of formal education. She's followed her own chosen path and
worked on achieving her goals and seems to have appreciated that what
was right for her wasn't necessarily right for her brother.
Now that my daughter has graduated from university this year, it's the
first time both of my children have been 'out of school'. Which is
kind of like the beginning of a new era.
Bob
Sandra Dodd
-=-The kids acted like it was Christmas when they heard they wouldn¹t
have to
do schoolwork and have remained very happy and satisfied with that
choice.
We are definitely still in the deschooling process. My 8 year old,
having
experienced far less school than my 13 year old, is much farther
along. -=-
Try not to see deschooling as another competition with levels and
successes, please.
A thirteen year old was probably in school for eight years, maybe
more. Don't offer to bring him ANYthing from the library. Either he
wants to go or he doesn't. If he doesn't, leave "library" talk out
of his life. Seriously. Schools are in the business of making
people hate libraries. Don't help them.
On the other hand, the usefulness of a library is waning because of
the internet. That's okay. Don't worship the library or the books.
See it as a source of fun and information, just like the interenet
(but slower).
You, the mom, have more deschooling to do than the 13 year old does.
-=-and
has picked up the guitar.
I never expected him to play an instrument because, although we are a
musical family and I thought he would be good at it, I figured he would
never be interested in putting in the time that it takes. In January we
found a music teacher that came weekly for lessons (drums for one,
guitar
for one and bass for one). The kids wanted the lessons. I did not make
them practice, and they didn¹t practice much at all. Suddenly, when the
schoolwork stopped, my 13 yo (who had been having bass lessons)
picked up
the guitar and started playing it, sometimes for hours every day!
This has
continued for about 4 weeks now and he is becoming quite good. -=-
If he quits the lessons, let that slide quietly by. He might not
need them anymore. Once he understands how to tune it and hold it
and has some technique, he cal learn the rest on his own. He
could've learned that on his own, too, but he is where he is right
now because he's interested and is playing for hours in a day, not
because of the lessons.
I know I'm headed away from the topic, but just wanted to shine my
little light on something about deschooling and music.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have to
do schoolwork and have remained very happy and satisfied with that
choice.
We are definitely still in the deschooling process. My 8 year old,
having
experienced far less school than my 13 year old, is much farther
along. -=-
Try not to see deschooling as another competition with levels and
successes, please.
A thirteen year old was probably in school for eight years, maybe
more. Don't offer to bring him ANYthing from the library. Either he
wants to go or he doesn't. If he doesn't, leave "library" talk out
of his life. Seriously. Schools are in the business of making
people hate libraries. Don't help them.
On the other hand, the usefulness of a library is waning because of
the internet. That's okay. Don't worship the library or the books.
See it as a source of fun and information, just like the interenet
(but slower).
You, the mom, have more deschooling to do than the 13 year old does.
-=-and
has picked up the guitar.
I never expected him to play an instrument because, although we are a
musical family and I thought he would be good at it, I figured he would
never be interested in putting in the time that it takes. In January we
found a music teacher that came weekly for lessons (drums for one,
guitar
for one and bass for one). The kids wanted the lessons. I did not make
them practice, and they didn¹t practice much at all. Suddenly, when the
schoolwork stopped, my 13 yo (who had been having bass lessons)
picked up
the guitar and started playing it, sometimes for hours every day!
This has
continued for about 4 weeks now and he is becoming quite good. -=-
If he quits the lessons, let that slide quietly by. He might not
need them anymore. Once he understands how to tune it and hold it
and has some technique, he cal learn the rest on his own. He
could've learned that on his own, too, but he is where he is right
now because he's interested and is playing for hours in a day, not
because of the lessons.
I know I'm headed away from the topic, but just wanted to shine my
little light on something about deschooling and music.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Queana
Darn, I was so hoping to be a candidate for the getting it¹ page... Should
have known I wasn¹t even close yet. There I go comparing and leveling again
lol. I definitely have deschooling to do...
There¹s not much chance of library hating around here. I read a lot, plus
check out a lot of movies and cds, so I go quite often. They usually want
to go, and if they don¹t, they don¹t... they can stay home. Yesterday they
came with me, and the 8 yo got a movie and the 13 yo got a few books, one of
which he¹s been reading since we got home (he¹s almost done). If they
didn¹t want to get anything, no big deal. If they don¹t come with me and I
happen to see something they might like I get it... Do you think I should
avoid that? That seems counterintuitive. Or should I just make sure I
don¹t have an agenda? They do love reading, as well as computers, tv, video
games, etc. (none of which have been limited in their lives, and they have
every system and game their hearts have ever desired lol).
As for the guitar, I totally agree. I know the lessons he had in bass did
not teach him how to play the things he plays on the guitar... At the moment
the lessons are on hold anyway because of the teacher¹s schedule. I learned
the piano quite well (well enough for a short-lived band and quite a few
years of church playing anyway) when I was growing up by getting some books
and a little support from my dad when I asked. My older brother, who was
forced into piano lessons at 5 or 6 and then quit, never did pick up an
instrument.
Sarah
have known I wasn¹t even close yet. There I go comparing and leveling again
lol. I definitely have deschooling to do...
There¹s not much chance of library hating around here. I read a lot, plus
check out a lot of movies and cds, so I go quite often. They usually want
to go, and if they don¹t, they don¹t... they can stay home. Yesterday they
came with me, and the 8 yo got a movie and the 13 yo got a few books, one of
which he¹s been reading since we got home (he¹s almost done). If they
didn¹t want to get anything, no big deal. If they don¹t come with me and I
happen to see something they might like I get it... Do you think I should
avoid that? That seems counterintuitive. Or should I just make sure I
don¹t have an agenda? They do love reading, as well as computers, tv, video
games, etc. (none of which have been limited in their lives, and they have
every system and game their hearts have ever desired lol).
As for the guitar, I totally agree. I know the lessons he had in bass did
not teach him how to play the things he plays on the guitar... At the moment
the lessons are on hold anyway because of the teacher¹s schedule. I learned
the piano quite well (well enough for a short-lived band and quite a few
years of church playing anyway) when I was growing up by getting some books
and a little support from my dad when I asked. My older brother, who was
forced into piano lessons at 5 or 6 and then quit, never did pick up an
instrument.
Sarah
On 4/30/08 11:09 AM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> -=-The kids acted like it was Christmas when they heard they wouldn¹t
> have to
> do schoolwork and have remained very happy and satisfied with that
> choice.
> We are definitely still in the deschooling process. My 8 year old,
> having
> experienced far less school than my 13 year old, is much farther
> along. -=-
>
> Try not to see deschooling as another competition with levels and
> successes, please.
>
> A thirteen year old was probably in school for eight years, maybe
> more. Don't offer to bring him ANYthing from the library. Either he
> wants to go or he doesn't. If he doesn't, leave "library" talk out
> of his life. Seriously. Schools are in the business of making
> people hate libraries. Don't help them.
>
> On the other hand, the usefulness of a library is waning because of
> the internet. That's okay. Don't worship the library or the books.
> See it as a source of fun and information, just like the interenet
> (but slower).
>
> You, the mom, have more deschooling to do than the 13 year old does.
>
> -=-and
> has picked up the guitar.
>
> I never expected him to play an instrument because, although we are a
> musical family and I thought he would be good at it, I figured he would
> never be interested in putting in the time that it takes. In January we
> found a music teacher that came weekly for lessons (drums for one,
> guitar
> for one and bass for one). The kids wanted the lessons. I did not make
> them practice, and they didn¹t practice much at all. Suddenly, when the
> schoolwork stopped, my 13 yo (who had been having bass lessons)
> picked up
> the guitar and started playing it, sometimes for hours every day!
> This has
> continued for about 4 weeks now and he is becoming quite good. -=-
>
> If he quits the lessons, let that slide quietly by. He might not
> need them anymore. Once he understands how to tune it and hold it
> and has some technique, he cal learn the rest on his own. He
> could've learned that on his own, too, but he is where he is right
> now because he's interested and is playing for hours in a day, not
> because of the lessons.
>
> I know I'm headed away from the topic, but just wanted to shine my
> little light on something about deschooling and music.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>> .
>>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Wilkinson
> If he quits the lessons, let that slide quietly by. He might notMy dh learned to play the guitar the summer after he graduated high
> need them anymore. Once he understands how to tune it and hold it
> and has some technique, he cal learn the rest on his own. He
> could've learned that on his own, too, but he is where he is right
> now because he's interested and is playing for hours in a day, not
> because of the lessons.
>
> I know I'm headed away from the topic, but just wanted to shine my
> little light on something about deschooling and music.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
school. He has never had a lesson in his life and has been playing
professionally for over 25 years. There is never one right way.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-I understand the difference now, but still
think he and I need a bit more deschooling.-=-
You can't measure deschooling that way. You need as much more as
you need. The mom needs enough more that she stops measuring and
counting. The child needs enough more that he forgets to think about
whether something "is educational" or not before he looks at it, into
it, involves himself in it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think he and I need a bit more deschooling.-=-
You can't measure deschooling that way. You need as much more as
you need. The mom needs enough more that she stops measuring and
counting. The child needs enough more that he forgets to think about
whether something "is educational" or not before he looks at it, into
it, involves himself in it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'd also suggest that kids who have been in school are used to
having their day planned FOR them and so they aren't really sure what
to do with so much free time. He probably just needs to get used to
the new way of things--and his freedom!-=-
Good point.
Some families keep a list of things to consider doing when one's
undecided.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
having their day planned FOR them and so they aren't really sure what
to do with so much free time. He probably just needs to get used to
the new way of things--and his freedom!-=-
Good point.
Some families keep a list of things to consider doing when one's
undecided.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. If they don¹t come with me and I
happen to see something they might like I get it... Do you think I
should
avoid that? That seems counterintuitive. Or should I just make sure I
don¹t have an agenda? -=-
Sarah, are you composing in Word and then cutting and pasting into
the e-mail blank?
If so, please set your quotes to straight quotes instead of curly.
We're getting some garble. Thanks.
-=-Do you think I should
avoid that? That seems counterintuitive. Or should I just make sure I
don¹t have an agenda? -=-
Be aware of your agenda. You can't make sure you don't have thoughts
and intentions. That would be bad. <g>
A good way to figure out what to do is to see if you know what you
would do if it were a friend staying with you for a week or two, or
your husband. Would you bring that library book? If so, do it. If
not... you're treating your child differently than you'd treat "a
person."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
happen to see something they might like I get it... Do you think I
should
avoid that? That seems counterintuitive. Or should I just make sure I
don¹t have an agenda? -=-
Sarah, are you composing in Word and then cutting and pasting into
the e-mail blank?
If so, please set your quotes to straight quotes instead of curly.
We're getting some garble. Thanks.
-=-Do you think I should
avoid that? That seems counterintuitive. Or should I just make sure I
don¹t have an agenda? -=-
Be aware of your agenda. You can't make sure you don't have thoughts
and intentions. That would be bad. <g>
A good way to figure out what to do is to see if you know what you
would do if it were a friend staying with you for a week or two, or
your husband. Would you bring that library book? If so, do it. If
not... you're treating your child differently than you'd treat "a
person."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
> My dh learned to play the guitar the summer after he graduated highI guess your husband hasn't realized that he's not supposed to be that good because his
> school. He has never had a lesson in his life and has been playing
> professionally for over 25 years. There is never one right way.
>
parents missed getting him lessons during the right "window of opportunity." ;-)
Joanna
Julie
I realize, from time to time, that this is far more true than not -- I
definitely have to remind myself to stop measuring and counting. I know
this, KNOW it, but sometimes it seems to slip from my mind. Weird...
Then he and I will do something together and we will both realize that
we just did something scientific/historic/mathematic/social without even
realizing it at the time. THAT is when it re-hits me that what we are
doing is wonderful and beneficial and we don't need to be lead around by
the brain by systematic teaching. Thanks for the reminder and keep
those coming!
Julie
definitely have to remind myself to stop measuring and counting. I know
this, KNOW it, but sometimes it seems to slip from my mind. Weird...
Then he and I will do something together and we will both realize that
we just did something scientific/historic/mathematic/social without even
realizing it at the time. THAT is when it re-hits me that what we are
doing is wonderful and beneficial and we don't need to be lead around by
the brain by systematic teaching. Thanks for the reminder and keep
those coming!
Julie
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I understand the difference now, but still
> think he and I need a bit more deschooling.-=-
>
> You can't measure deschooling that way. You need as much more as
> you need. The mom needs enough more that she stops measuring and
> counting. The child needs enough more that he forgets to think about
> whether something "is educational" or not before he looks at it, into
> it, involves himself in it.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]