Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Trust (WAS: not choosing books)
Kim Musolff
***if they are in a rich, supportive environment they will have what they
need, or can
get what they need to assimilate those things to the degree to which it
makes sense to the
child.***
Ok, so this makes me think that maybe it's not that I don't trust my
children, it's that I don't trust MYSELF to provide the rich, supportive
environment they need to grow and learn. I
How can I learn to trust myself better?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
need, or can
get what they need to assimilate those things to the degree to which it
makes sense to the
child.***
Ok, so this makes me think that maybe it's not that I don't trust my
children, it's that I don't trust MYSELF to provide the rich, supportive
environment they need to grow and learn. I
How can I learn to trust myself better?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ok, so this makes me think that maybe it's not that I don't trust my
children, it's that I don't trust MYSELF to provide the rich, supportive
environment they need to grow and learn. I
-=-How can I learn to trust myself better?-=-
The same way a child can learn to trust that he can learn things. By
learning them.
You can learn to trust yourself to provide by providing.
Experiment. Add to. Gain experience and confidence. It will come
easier and easier until it's second nature, if you make decisions
with that goal in mind.
This article might help:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children, it's that I don't trust MYSELF to provide the rich, supportive
environment they need to grow and learn. I
-=-How can I learn to trust myself better?-=-
The same way a child can learn to trust that he can learn things. By
learning them.
You can learn to trust yourself to provide by providing.
Experiment. Add to. Gain experience and confidence. It will come
easier and easier until it's second nature, if you make decisions
with that goal in mind.
This article might help:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~How can I learn to trust myself better?~~
This is the KEY question!! Once we realize this and start asking this
question, it really changes the perspective and helps us SEE how we
don't trust our children because we don't trust ourselves.
THAT is a big journey, one I'm still on and probably will be for the
rest of my life. I think I really TRUST myself and believe in my
ability to do most anything. Then something will come along to show me
that there is STILL some shred of doubt, some nagging fear that is
deeply embedded and I question all over again.
That's one of my favorite John Holt quotes: "To trust children we must
first learn to trust ourselves...and most of us were taught as
children that we could not be trusted."
The main lesson that schools and adults left us with is that we can
NOT be trusted. We must be taught. We must trust the experts. We are
left devoid of a true connection with our powerful inner voice. In
regaining that connection, we can truly honor and trust our children.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
This is the KEY question!! Once we realize this and start asking this
question, it really changes the perspective and helps us SEE how we
don't trust our children because we don't trust ourselves.
THAT is a big journey, one I'm still on and probably will be for the
rest of my life. I think I really TRUST myself and believe in my
ability to do most anything. Then something will come along to show me
that there is STILL some shred of doubt, some nagging fear that is
deeply embedded and I question all over again.
That's one of my favorite John Holt quotes: "To trust children we must
first learn to trust ourselves...and most of us were taught as
children that we could not be trusted."
The main lesson that schools and adults left us with is that we can
NOT be trusted. We must be taught. We must trust the experts. We are
left devoid of a true connection with our powerful inner voice. In
regaining that connection, we can truly honor and trust our children.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-The main lesson that schools and adults left us with is that we can
NOT be trusted. We must be taught. We must trust the experts. We are
left devoid of a true connection with our powerful inner voice. In
regaining that connection, we can truly honor and trust our children.-=-
I've found that by seeing that my children can be calm and
thoughtful, I remember that I can be too, and probably could have
been when I was their age, had I been give the opportunity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NOT be trusted. We must be taught. We must trust the experts. We are
left devoid of a true connection with our powerful inner voice. In
regaining that connection, we can truly honor and trust our children.-=-
I've found that by seeing that my children can be calm and
thoughtful, I remember that I can be too, and probably could have
been when I was their age, had I been give the opportunity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
that must be present for unschooling/mindful parenting to be successful. The factor that
came up was TRUST. With trust, the world opens up, horizons expand and life can seem
exciting and limitless. Without trust, the world shuts down, gets narrow and petty. Each
moment matters in the wrong way. I want more expansiveness in my life, not less.
And the expansive quality of trust grows out from the center to touch every part of our
lives. Trust that we ARE capable and that we will, through our honest endeavor, figure out
a way. Trust that our children will find, ask or be provided with what they need, trust that
they are in connection with us by their own choosing and free will--not through
"enforcing." And trust that they will grow up loving and caring and interesting people
without being "taught."
Joanna
>Just yesterday a friend and I were discussing what we thought of as a distilling "factor"
> That's one of my favorite John Holt quotes: "To trust children we must
> first learn to trust ourselves...and most of us were taught as
> children that we could not be trusted."
>
> The main lesson that schools and adults left us with is that we can
> NOT be trusted. We must be taught. We must trust the experts. We are
> left devoid of a true connection with our powerful inner voice. In
> regaining that connection, we can truly honor and trust our children.
>
that must be present for unschooling/mindful parenting to be successful. The factor that
came up was TRUST. With trust, the world opens up, horizons expand and life can seem
exciting and limitless. Without trust, the world shuts down, gets narrow and petty. Each
moment matters in the wrong way. I want more expansiveness in my life, not less.
And the expansive quality of trust grows out from the center to touch every part of our
lives. Trust that we ARE capable and that we will, through our honest endeavor, figure out
a way. Trust that our children will find, ask or be provided with what they need, trust that
they are in connection with us by their own choosing and free will--not through
"enforcing." And trust that they will grow up loving and caring and interesting people
without being "taught."
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-Without trust, the world shuts down, gets narrow and petty. Each
moment matters in the wrong way. I want more expansiveness in my
life, not less.-=-
I was going to add that whole post to my "trust" page, and DOH!
No trust page. There is the beginning of one now.
http://sandradodd.com/trust
I like this: "And the expansive quality of trust grows out from the
center to touch every part of our lives. Trust that we ARE capable
and that we will, through our honest endeavor, figure out a way. "
I liked all of it. I don't like to think of trusting in a person. I
like to think of trusting in the process of learning, and trust in
the benefit of living by principles. It can get back to the people.
There are two problems I've seen with "trust" when people think it
means "trust" blindly, or trust without effort.
First problem: Some people want to trust that their kids will learn
just because they left them alone and peeked in once in a while. And
I've often heard someone defend such laxness with "Anything's better
than school" which is a cop-out and a defense of the listless and lazy.
And some people hear us talking about "trust yourself" and they have
no clear idea what that means, but they decide to "trust themselves"
even though every few days they're getting out a curriculum, and
they're yelling at their kids or waiting for them to "develop a
primary interest." Just waiting.
The second problem is bigger for some people and nothing to others.
It has to do with heresy. Not social heresy or school heresy,
Christian heresy.
It's humanism.
To say that a person can be trusted to unfold in peace and goodness
is plain old heresy. And it's the reason some Christians say that
other Christians can't be unschoolers, or that unschooling itself is
un- or anti-Christian.
Sandra
moment matters in the wrong way. I want more expansiveness in my
life, not less.-=-
I was going to add that whole post to my "trust" page, and DOH!
No trust page. There is the beginning of one now.
http://sandradodd.com/trust
I like this: "And the expansive quality of trust grows out from the
center to touch every part of our lives. Trust that we ARE capable
and that we will, through our honest endeavor, figure out a way. "
I liked all of it. I don't like to think of trusting in a person. I
like to think of trusting in the process of learning, and trust in
the benefit of living by principles. It can get back to the people.
There are two problems I've seen with "trust" when people think it
means "trust" blindly, or trust without effort.
First problem: Some people want to trust that their kids will learn
just because they left them alone and peeked in once in a while. And
I've often heard someone defend such laxness with "Anything's better
than school" which is a cop-out and a defense of the listless and lazy.
And some people hear us talking about "trust yourself" and they have
no clear idea what that means, but they decide to "trust themselves"
even though every few days they're getting out a curriculum, and
they're yelling at their kids or waiting for them to "develop a
primary interest." Just waiting.
The second problem is bigger for some people and nothing to others.
It has to do with heresy. Not social heresy or school heresy,
Christian heresy.
It's humanism.
To say that a person can be trusted to unfold in peace and goodness
is plain old heresy. And it's the reason some Christians say that
other Christians can't be unschoolers, or that unschooling itself is
un- or anti-Christian.
Sandra
Ren Allen
I'd like to post the entire exchange at my blog if both of you are ok
with that (Sandra and Joanna). I really enjoyed it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
with that (Sandra and Joanna). I really enjoyed it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> I like this: "And the expansive quality of trust grows out from the
> center to touch every part of our lives. Trust that we ARE capable
> and that we will, through our honest endeavor, figure out a way. "
>
>
>
> I liked all of it. I don't like to think of trusting in a person. I
> like to think of trusting in the process of learning, and trust in
> the benefit of living by principles. It can get back to the people.
>
> There are two problems I've seen with "trust" when people think it
> means "trust" blindly, or trust without effort.
>
> First problem: Some people want to trust that their kids will learn
> just because they left them alone and peeked in once in a while. And
> I've often heard someone defend such laxness with "Anything's better
> than school" which is a cop-out and a defense of the listless and lazy.
>
> And some people hear us talking about "trust yourself" and they have
> no clear idea what that means, but they decide to "trust themselves"
> even though every few days they're getting out a curriculum, and
> they're yelling at their kids or waiting for them to "develop a
> primary interest." Just waiting.
>
>
>
> The second problem is bigger for some people and nothing to others.
> It has to do with heresy. Not social heresy or school heresy,
> Christian heresy.
>
> It's humanism.
>
> To say that a person can be trusted to unfold in peace and goodness
> is plain old heresy. And it's the reason some Christians say that
> other Christians can't be unschoolers, or that unschooling itself is
> un- or anti-Christian.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'd like to post the entire exchange at my blog if both of you are ok
with that (Sandra and Joanna). I really enjoyed it.-=-
I think it would be great. Then I'll add the link to that to my
page. <g>
We will be so cross-referenced people will be able to float in
unschooling information.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with that (Sandra and Joanna). I really enjoyed it.-=-
I think it would be great. Then I'll add the link to that to my
page. <g>
We will be so cross-referenced people will be able to float in
unschooling information.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Ok, so this makes me think that maybe it's not that I don't trust mysupportive
> children, it's that I don't trust MYSELF to provide the rich,
> environment they need to grow and learn. II think a lot depends on how interesting you see the world. I feel like
>
> How can I learn to trust myself better?
I provide a rich and supportive environment, but it's not always full of
curious active doings and goings on. Sometimes there are lulls and
nobody seems to be doing anything. We've had times of boredom and
inactivity.
These lulls are times that I actively look for opportunities because I
know following every lull is an intense period of activity. I don't
want to miss those things, so I look for them. After enough down time
and feelings of boredom everyone is ready for new things. When they are
ready, I don't want to be stuck with nothing to offer, so I always try
to have things to offer.
Can you trust yourself enough to relax and see what your kids are doing,
really doing. Can you trust yourself to expand on those things.
My oldest daughter, 14, is very interested in scary movies right now, so
we've been going to the video store a lot. If I didn't see that as
learning opportunities, we wouldn't be heading to the video store every
week looking for videos that meet the scary criteria. I also keep in
mind that life isn't all dark and scary, nor do my kids see it that way,
so I am careful to select many other light and fun things to go along
with all the dark and scary. It's a part of recognizing an interest and
encouraging it and adding to it.
If life is interesting and you see it that way, it is the difference
between just watching a movie or watching a movie and then watching the
special features and checking out things online and finding similar
movies that lead to other things that lead to other things.
Jenny C
> My oldest daughter, 14, is very interested in scary movies right now,so
> we've been going to the video store a lot. If I didn't see that asevery
> learning opportunities, we wouldn't be heading to the video store
> week looking for videos that meet the scary criteria.Just to be clear, we go because it's important, in and of itself, not
specifically because it's a learning opportunity. I do view ALL things
as learning opportunities, but it does sound contrived when put in that
way.
All of the world is interesting and full of learning opportunites, that
is why unschooling can work if you see everything as interesting.
Learning is a side effect of exploring all those interesting things.
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>I'd like to post the entire exchange at my blog if both of you are ok
> with that (Sandra and Joanna). I really enjoyed it.
>Absolutely! :-)
Barbara Chase
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrekdiv
The second problem is bigger for some people and nothing to others.
I've had a lot of people disagree for other reasons, but never that
it's humanism. The way I see it, God created everything. Including an
order for our lives. I don't have to force my son to learn anything.
God is preparing his life and if ds needs to know it for the future
then the oppurtunity just seems to present itself. An amazing amount
of "chance encounters" have occured to spur his curosity and seek out
those who can apprentice him.
I think others want to call me "lazy" because I'm not pouring over
curriculum's worrying whether this is the best one or even whether he
is going to like it.
> > It has to do with heresy. Not social heresy or school heresy,goodness
> > Christian heresy.
> >
> > It's humanism.
> >
> > To say that a person can be trusted to unfold in peace and
> > is plain old heresy. And it's the reason some Christians say thatis
> > other Christians can't be unschoolers, or that unschooling itself
> > un- or anti-Christian.It is in how one looks at unschooling. I am a Christian unschooler.
I've had a lot of people disagree for other reasons, but never that
it's humanism. The way I see it, God created everything. Including an
order for our lives. I don't have to force my son to learn anything.
God is preparing his life and if ds needs to know it for the future
then the oppurtunity just seems to present itself. An amazing amount
of "chance encounters" have occured to spur his curosity and seek out
those who can apprentice him.
I think others want to call me "lazy" because I'm not pouring over
curriculum's worrying whether this is the best one or even whether he
is going to like it.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I've had a lot of people disagree for other reasons, but never that
it's humanism. The way I see it, God created everything. Including an
order for our lives.-=-
Humanists can be Christians. They just can't be good fundamentalist
Christians. (Nor good medieval Catholics.)
The belief that children are born sinful and have to be saved from
their inevitable path to hell is central to much Christianity. Not
all, but any Christian who isn't aware of it shouldn't stand and
argue with me. Look it up. Look around.
The belief that children are born good and pure and with the
potential to be happy and to blossom goes against certain passages of
the Bible. Seeing it with our own eyes, having what seems to us to
be "proof" is covered by other Bible verses.
I myself believe children are born pure and good, with genetic
propensities that can cause problems, and I believe any child, no
matter how good, can be controlled and shamed and punished to the
point that he "goes bad" to some extent. I don't "study" humanism or
"subscribe" to it, I just happen to know from years of exposure to
various arguments and bits of history that it's sinful to consider
that people can be moral without following the rules of Christianity.
When all the homeschoolers online were a smaller pool of people (not
the ocean they are now), someone asked me in a discussion why, if we
didn't believe in hell, would my children ever be good? How could
they have morals if we weren't Christian? From her point of view it
was a valid question. She honestly had no idea [though maybe she
expected the answer to be "DOH! You're right. They can't. I'll
change everything right now," or maybe for me to burst into tears get
Baptized (again).]
I explained to her why people would want to be good, what it was good
for, even for agnostics and athiests. It was news to her, and she
took it well, and thought about it.
The saddest part is that she thought up to that point is that the
only reason her children were ever good was fear of punishment or
fear of hell. (Church of Christ, for the record; California. Not
Baptists in Arkansas, in that instance.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it's humanism. The way I see it, God created everything. Including an
order for our lives.-=-
Humanists can be Christians. They just can't be good fundamentalist
Christians. (Nor good medieval Catholics.)
The belief that children are born sinful and have to be saved from
their inevitable path to hell is central to much Christianity. Not
all, but any Christian who isn't aware of it shouldn't stand and
argue with me. Look it up. Look around.
The belief that children are born good and pure and with the
potential to be happy and to blossom goes against certain passages of
the Bible. Seeing it with our own eyes, having what seems to us to
be "proof" is covered by other Bible verses.
I myself believe children are born pure and good, with genetic
propensities that can cause problems, and I believe any child, no
matter how good, can be controlled and shamed and punished to the
point that he "goes bad" to some extent. I don't "study" humanism or
"subscribe" to it, I just happen to know from years of exposure to
various arguments and bits of history that it's sinful to consider
that people can be moral without following the rules of Christianity.
When all the homeschoolers online were a smaller pool of people (not
the ocean they are now), someone asked me in a discussion why, if we
didn't believe in hell, would my children ever be good? How could
they have morals if we weren't Christian? From her point of view it
was a valid question. She honestly had no idea [though maybe she
expected the answer to be "DOH! You're right. They can't. I'll
change everything right now," or maybe for me to burst into tears get
Baptized (again).]
I explained to her why people would want to be good, what it was good
for, even for agnostics and athiests. It was news to her, and she
took it well, and thought about it.
The saddest part is that she thought up to that point is that the
only reason her children were ever good was fear of punishment or
fear of hell. (Church of Christ, for the record; California. Not
Baptists in Arkansas, in that instance.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
> When all the homeschoolers online were a smaller pool of people (notMy dh & I received a lengthy email from his family with this same question.
> the ocean they are now), someone asked me in a discussion why, if we
> didn't believe in hell, would my children ever be good? How could
> they have morals if we weren't Christian? From her point of view it
> was a valid question. She honestly had no idea [though maybe she
> expected the answer to be "DOH! You're right. They can't. I'll
> change everything right now," or maybe for me to burst into tears get
> Baptized (again).]
For the record, we were/are members of a UU congregation, but I'd left
the Christian
church shortly after we married.
They seemed to be saying that there was no possible reason we (and our
kids) wouldn't
just run right out at any minute and rob a bank or kill people just
because we could - since
we weren't worried about going to hell.
It just seemed crazy thinking to us.
heather
melissa_hice
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
K and 1st grade) trying to find the best approach. It was very
frustrating as I tried different methods, none of which ever seemed
right. There was always something missing. Nothing ever "felt"
right. I tried a Christian program, then unit studies (Konos), then
Montessori, and finally, Charlotte Mason. While googling CM
approaches, I came across unschooling and began investigating.
So here I am, 7 months later, and this approach "feels" so right.
As I delve into the philosophy of unschooling and apply it to our
lives, I have begun to question other areas of my life -- not just the
schooling aspect. I've begun to question the role of mainstream
Christianity in my life.
I was raised with the typical belief that you have to be good or you
will go to Hell. Couple that with an abusive, manipulative,
controlling mother and you can bet I've got lots of hang-ups.
Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system? How
did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?
I tried talking to my husband, but it frankly scares him to hear me
talk in such a way. He thinks I should just quit thinking about it and
go on to church and leave things alone. I wouldn't dare talk to my
mother-in-law. Not only would she have a major cow, she would worry
herself sick that I was leading her son and her grandchildren astray.
My mother is out of the question as is anyone in our congregation.
I still know in my heart that I am a Christian, but things just don't
seem right anymore. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would approve of
what churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling they are.
Maybe this subject is inappropriate for this list, and if so, I
apologize.
Melissa
>I spent the first three years of homeschooling my daughter (preschool,
> The saddest part is that she thought up to that point is that the
> only reason her children were ever good was fear of punishment or
> fear of hell. (Church of Christ, for the record; California. Not
> Baptists in Arkansas, in that instance.)
>
> Sandra
>
K and 1st grade) trying to find the best approach. It was very
frustrating as I tried different methods, none of which ever seemed
right. There was always something missing. Nothing ever "felt"
right. I tried a Christian program, then unit studies (Konos), then
Montessori, and finally, Charlotte Mason. While googling CM
approaches, I came across unschooling and began investigating.
So here I am, 7 months later, and this approach "feels" so right.
As I delve into the philosophy of unschooling and apply it to our
lives, I have begun to question other areas of my life -- not just the
schooling aspect. I've begun to question the role of mainstream
Christianity in my life.
I was raised with the typical belief that you have to be good or you
will go to Hell. Couple that with an abusive, manipulative,
controlling mother and you can bet I've got lots of hang-ups.
Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system? How
did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?
I tried talking to my husband, but it frankly scares him to hear me
talk in such a way. He thinks I should just quit thinking about it and
go on to church and leave things alone. I wouldn't dare talk to my
mother-in-law. Not only would she have a major cow, she would worry
herself sick that I was leading her son and her grandchildren astray.
My mother is out of the question as is anyone in our congregation.
I still know in my heart that I am a Christian, but things just don't
seem right anymore. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would approve of
what churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling they are.
Maybe this subject is inappropriate for this list, and if so, I
apologize.
Melissa
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
.
melissa_hice <mhice@...> wrote:
I still know in my heart that I am a Christian, but things just don't
seem right anymore. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would approve of
what churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling they are.
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=
Schyler just posted a gem at her blog
http://waynforth.blogspot.com/2008/05/kissing-hanks-ass.html
Alex
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melissa_hice <mhice@...> wrote:
I still know in my heart that I am a Christian, but things just don't
seem right anymore. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would approve of
what churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling they are.
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=
Schyler just posted a gem at her blog
http://waynforth.blogspot.com/2008/05/kissing-hanks-ass.html
Alex
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system? How
did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?~~
I think it's pretty typical to "wake up" and continue waking up for
the rest of your life. Once we realize we can question everything we
thought was "right" and "good", it's a snowball effect. It's called
thinking for yourself.:)
You're in that no man's (or woman's in this case) land where you
aren't sure of certain things and it feels a bit like casting about
without a foundation anymore. I remember.
What I found out, is that as I grew in confidence and felt the need to
question everything (even my firmly entrenched Christian beliefs) I
became a person with peace. Real peace. Not the kind of peace the
church offered which was actually constant torment about hell, but the
kind of peace that is about being OK with not knowing! Cool place
actually.
I don't consider myself a Christian any longer, nor do I live in any
kind of fear (except maybe the fear that the world may run out of
truffles someday).:)
All I can say, is unschooling blossoms best when people question
things, even their own beliefs. Unschooling works best when we are
willing to turn things upside down and all around and examine it from
many angles. It works best when kids are free to question things and
not get a judgemental response but a curious adult to explore with
them...especially on topics like religion and spirituality.
I started reading a lot of history that didn't mesh with what I'd been
taught all those years before, and came to conclusions that seem a lot
more based on reality than belief.
Wherever you're at in your questioning, I think you'll really love a
book that I'm reading right now. It's titled "Dance of the Dissident
Daughter" by Sue Monk Kidd. Great way to help shift some of your
questioning and need to stretch beyond the confines of what you've
been taught all your life. I highly recommend it.
Unschooling facilitates great healing...this seems to be part of your
process. Enjoy the journey!
Ren, former christian, major heretic
learninginfreedom.com
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system? How
did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?~~
I think it's pretty typical to "wake up" and continue waking up for
the rest of your life. Once we realize we can question everything we
thought was "right" and "good", it's a snowball effect. It's called
thinking for yourself.:)
You're in that no man's (or woman's in this case) land where you
aren't sure of certain things and it feels a bit like casting about
without a foundation anymore. I remember.
What I found out, is that as I grew in confidence and felt the need to
question everything (even my firmly entrenched Christian beliefs) I
became a person with peace. Real peace. Not the kind of peace the
church offered which was actually constant torment about hell, but the
kind of peace that is about being OK with not knowing! Cool place
actually.
I don't consider myself a Christian any longer, nor do I live in any
kind of fear (except maybe the fear that the world may run out of
truffles someday).:)
All I can say, is unschooling blossoms best when people question
things, even their own beliefs. Unschooling works best when we are
willing to turn things upside down and all around and examine it from
many angles. It works best when kids are free to question things and
not get a judgemental response but a curious adult to explore with
them...especially on topics like religion and spirituality.
I started reading a lot of history that didn't mesh with what I'd been
taught all those years before, and came to conclusions that seem a lot
more based on reality than belief.
Wherever you're at in your questioning, I think you'll really love a
book that I'm reading right now. It's titled "Dance of the Dissident
Daughter" by Sue Monk Kidd. Great way to help shift some of your
questioning and need to stretch beyond the confines of what you've
been taught all your life. I highly recommend it.
Unschooling facilitates great healing...this seems to be part of your
process. Enjoy the journey!
Ren, former christian, major heretic
learninginfreedom.com
cathy
Melissa wrote about questioning the role of mainstream Christianity in her
life.
There are certain avenues of exploration that lead naturally to questioning.
Maybe all avenues of exploration do - ultimately... Certainly, unschooling
is one. Parelli horse training is another. A person begins by saying "I want
to apply this thing in this an area" , but doesn't realise that the
application of the thing is going to result in a major paradigm shift that
is going to affect many (all???) other areas of their living as well. So
they proceed to implement the initial decision, and then they become aware
of the paradigm shift challenge, and find themselves at a crossroads of
sorts. What now? For many it is too scary, too painful, to insecure to
continue, and so they turn back. Sometimes the turning back is dramatic ("I
tried that and it doesn't work/is rubbish/is heresy/is dangerous" or
whatever other trumped up excuse alleviates the stress...); sometimes it is
wistful ("I would have liked to have gone down that road but it is too
difficult/I don't have the time/I am too afraid to try/It is too hard to
make a change now"). Sometimes there is a denial that there ever was a
choice made and turned back upon.
Fear is powerful. We are so afraid of consequences. School helped to teach
us that the one thing you should never do is mess up. Don't fail. Don't make
mistakes. Parents that can't be accepting and loving in the face of
disappointment and difference make us afraid of disappointing and of being
different. Etc, etc, etc. One could spend many hours analysing why one is
afraid.
Melissa picks up on the 'fear of hell' aspect. How grateful I am that that
is one fear that has never ruled me. I would chuck that fear where it
belongs.... easier said than done, I know... because I am a Christian, I
would spend a lot of time reading the Bible to see what it really says (as
opposed to what people say the Bible says) about God and His loving kindness
to find the courage I needed.
It takes courage to face ones fears and to explore anyway. As a horse rider,
trained traditionally in a Germanic riding style, and who used to 'do'
Dressage, Parelli stripped me painfully naked. I didn't even have anywhere
to hide - my 15 year old daughter 'horse whisperer natural' was watching
with unsympathetic and critical eyes. What would I do? I spent months crying
in a corner while my pony grazed peacefully in his paddock. Eventually I
faced the facts - I couldn't go back, because Pat Parelli's thinking had
changed me - I had been to one of his conferences and seen what he did with
his horses, and there was no other way to go anymore. I had to go forward or
get out of riding. Soooo... I am going forward. And you know what? I am
finding the freedom. Yesterday I went for a hack; cantered down a long
stretch without my hands even on the reins, much less taking up a contact.
It was one of those 'wow' moments that make the struggle to be born worth
it. Know what I mean???
Unschooling was the same. In 2001 we began what we called an 'unschooling
experiment'. As time went by, I also knew that there was no going back. I
had read John Holt's books. And I saw that he was right.
Questioning of any sort is tough. It provokes growth. It forces
confrontation with who we are and with who we really hope to be. It makes us
let go of stuff that we thought we needed and have lugged along for so long
that the letting go leaves one feeling so vulnerable.
Questions about religious faith are particularly tough. Faith is supposed to
be the foundation after all. What will happen if I destabilize my
foundation? How will I survive such a shaking???
I am a Christian. I find myself secure in the knowledge that God loves me.
My confidence is not in what I believe, but in Him. It is not my belief that
holds me in my place; it is the powerful certainty that I am in His hands,
that He will not let me go, that He will finish the work He has begun in me.
Questioning strengthened my faith, and with it, my peace. For others,
questioning results in a letting go. Maybe because they had not found a
faith of their own; it was somebody else's faith that they were holding.
Ultimately, although others can help us along the way, and give us their
faith to lean on for a while, we have to establish our own
faith/belief/conviction about the meaning of life, Who and What God is, and
how to live in this world.
I have had to face the turmoil of questioning whether it was acceptable to
be both a Christian and an unschooler. It was a cliff edge. I cast myself on
His grace and leapt. I have discovered (am discovering) that truly, it was
for freedom that Christ set us free.
Jesus was not afraid of freedom. I see this when I look at the stories
written about Him in the Gospels. Things He said and did. He dared to
challenge the conventions and thinking of the day. Sure, it got Him killed
in the end. But what freedom and peace and joy He bought with that dying. I
am one who still feasts on it. In my case, Christianity led me into
unschooling.
It is not wrong to ask questions. It is a false guilt that says that it is.
You find it everywhere - not just in religion. My brother in law says that
he hopes for our sakes that we will not live to regret the educational
choices we have made for our children. Guilt and shame accompany his point
of view. It is up to me to accept it or to reject it. I don't have to be
guilty.
One very real concern is that Melissa's husband is reacting negatively. Will
he cope with her questioning? Will he have the courage to face the questions
himself, or will he continue to maintain his comfort zone? Is it important
enough to her to take the risk of destabilising her marriage? How strong is
the marriage - will it cope??? It also sounds like there is unlikely to be a
supportive or sympathetic response from the extended family. Is it worth
rocking the boat so hard? These are tough questions that only she can
answer.
Finally, Melissa commented: >>>Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would
approve of what churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling
they are.<<<
I agree with this statement. As unschoolers, hubby, kids, and I all find
ourselves with ambivalent feelings about church. We like the singing and the
worship, the Bible teaching in our church is great, we enjoy the feeling of
getting together with other Christians. But, we actively dislike the feeling
of being organised, slotted into our place, ticked off on the list. We cause
the church leadership a few problems as we just don't fit in a neat little
box... We are individuals first, then part of a group. Church often feels
like the order of priority is the other way around. I suppose this is true
of many groups. Somehow, church is 'supposed' to be different though...
My thoughts on the matter...
Regards
Cathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
life.
There are certain avenues of exploration that lead naturally to questioning.
Maybe all avenues of exploration do - ultimately... Certainly, unschooling
is one. Parelli horse training is another. A person begins by saying "I want
to apply this thing in this an area" , but doesn't realise that the
application of the thing is going to result in a major paradigm shift that
is going to affect many (all???) other areas of their living as well. So
they proceed to implement the initial decision, and then they become aware
of the paradigm shift challenge, and find themselves at a crossroads of
sorts. What now? For many it is too scary, too painful, to insecure to
continue, and so they turn back. Sometimes the turning back is dramatic ("I
tried that and it doesn't work/is rubbish/is heresy/is dangerous" or
whatever other trumped up excuse alleviates the stress...); sometimes it is
wistful ("I would have liked to have gone down that road but it is too
difficult/I don't have the time/I am too afraid to try/It is too hard to
make a change now"). Sometimes there is a denial that there ever was a
choice made and turned back upon.
Fear is powerful. We are so afraid of consequences. School helped to teach
us that the one thing you should never do is mess up. Don't fail. Don't make
mistakes. Parents that can't be accepting and loving in the face of
disappointment and difference make us afraid of disappointing and of being
different. Etc, etc, etc. One could spend many hours analysing why one is
afraid.
Melissa picks up on the 'fear of hell' aspect. How grateful I am that that
is one fear that has never ruled me. I would chuck that fear where it
belongs.... easier said than done, I know... because I am a Christian, I
would spend a lot of time reading the Bible to see what it really says (as
opposed to what people say the Bible says) about God and His loving kindness
to find the courage I needed.
It takes courage to face ones fears and to explore anyway. As a horse rider,
trained traditionally in a Germanic riding style, and who used to 'do'
Dressage, Parelli stripped me painfully naked. I didn't even have anywhere
to hide - my 15 year old daughter 'horse whisperer natural' was watching
with unsympathetic and critical eyes. What would I do? I spent months crying
in a corner while my pony grazed peacefully in his paddock. Eventually I
faced the facts - I couldn't go back, because Pat Parelli's thinking had
changed me - I had been to one of his conferences and seen what he did with
his horses, and there was no other way to go anymore. I had to go forward or
get out of riding. Soooo... I am going forward. And you know what? I am
finding the freedom. Yesterday I went for a hack; cantered down a long
stretch without my hands even on the reins, much less taking up a contact.
It was one of those 'wow' moments that make the struggle to be born worth
it. Know what I mean???
Unschooling was the same. In 2001 we began what we called an 'unschooling
experiment'. As time went by, I also knew that there was no going back. I
had read John Holt's books. And I saw that he was right.
Questioning of any sort is tough. It provokes growth. It forces
confrontation with who we are and with who we really hope to be. It makes us
let go of stuff that we thought we needed and have lugged along for so long
that the letting go leaves one feeling so vulnerable.
Questions about religious faith are particularly tough. Faith is supposed to
be the foundation after all. What will happen if I destabilize my
foundation? How will I survive such a shaking???
I am a Christian. I find myself secure in the knowledge that God loves me.
My confidence is not in what I believe, but in Him. It is not my belief that
holds me in my place; it is the powerful certainty that I am in His hands,
that He will not let me go, that He will finish the work He has begun in me.
Questioning strengthened my faith, and with it, my peace. For others,
questioning results in a letting go. Maybe because they had not found a
faith of their own; it was somebody else's faith that they were holding.
Ultimately, although others can help us along the way, and give us their
faith to lean on for a while, we have to establish our own
faith/belief/conviction about the meaning of life, Who and What God is, and
how to live in this world.
I have had to face the turmoil of questioning whether it was acceptable to
be both a Christian and an unschooler. It was a cliff edge. I cast myself on
His grace and leapt. I have discovered (am discovering) that truly, it was
for freedom that Christ set us free.
Jesus was not afraid of freedom. I see this when I look at the stories
written about Him in the Gospels. Things He said and did. He dared to
challenge the conventions and thinking of the day. Sure, it got Him killed
in the end. But what freedom and peace and joy He bought with that dying. I
am one who still feasts on it. In my case, Christianity led me into
unschooling.
It is not wrong to ask questions. It is a false guilt that says that it is.
You find it everywhere - not just in religion. My brother in law says that
he hopes for our sakes that we will not live to regret the educational
choices we have made for our children. Guilt and shame accompany his point
of view. It is up to me to accept it or to reject it. I don't have to be
guilty.
One very real concern is that Melissa's husband is reacting negatively. Will
he cope with her questioning? Will he have the courage to face the questions
himself, or will he continue to maintain his comfort zone? Is it important
enough to her to take the risk of destabilising her marriage? How strong is
the marriage - will it cope??? It also sounds like there is unlikely to be a
supportive or sympathetic response from the extended family. Is it worth
rocking the boat so hard? These are tough questions that only she can
answer.
Finally, Melissa commented: >>>Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would
approve of what churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling
they are.<<<
I agree with this statement. As unschoolers, hubby, kids, and I all find
ourselves with ambivalent feelings about church. We like the singing and the
worship, the Bible teaching in our church is great, we enjoy the feeling of
getting together with other Christians. But, we actively dislike the feeling
of being organised, slotted into our place, ticked off on the list. We cause
the church leadership a few problems as we just don't fit in a neat little
box... We are individuals first, then part of a group. Church often feels
like the order of priority is the other way around. I suppose this is true
of many groups. Somehow, church is 'supposed' to be different though...
My thoughts on the matter...
Regards
Cathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela Shaw
Melissa wrote:
<Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system?>
Oh Absoultely I did begin to question my belief system. One of the books
that I read that helped me to sort out what I believed or did not believe
was "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I found I certainly
didn't agree with everything he wrote but some of the questions he asked
were also questions I had and as I read the book and sorted out what I
believed I came to feel a sense of peace with my own beliefs. Ren said it
well. Real Peace. And it's a very cool place, for sure.
Before I came to that place, I walked aroudn with a lot of guilt. I wasn't
even aware of how much guilt I was carrying until I let it all go and felt
an enormous sense of peace. I even sat down with my pastor and talked about
things that I felt were inconsistant between Christianity and just being a
good person and I was pleasantly surprised to find that she shared my ideas
even though they were inconsistant with what a lot of us had been taught.
She said it was difficult to talk about some of these things in sermons
because people don't take change well but that she tried in little ways to
open people's minds more and more without shaking their whole foundations.
I stopped going to church at that point (probably 8 years ago) because I
realized that even though I enjoyed parts of it, I really went out of a
sense of guilt. I may attend a church again some day but for now it doesn't
fit in my life and that's okay with me.
I'm not sure if there is a term that describes or sums up what I believe.
I'm sure I'm not a Christian in most Christian's eyes but I do feel that God
is part of this world in some way and I do believe that people who are able
to give up their worries to some higher power (or just unburden themselves
of them somehow) can feel more peaceful than those who carry too much
baggage around all the time.
It's funny, the only time I feel guilty about anything religion related is
when I visit one relative who, if she knew how I felt, would carry the
burden of worry for my soul. I conceal what I believe when conversations
turn toward religion because I feel like she carries enough guilt for us all
and I don't want to place anymore burden on her. I know she does NOT want
to question anything because it would rock her world too much.
Angela Shaw
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system?>
Oh Absoultely I did begin to question my belief system. One of the books
that I read that helped me to sort out what I believed or did not believe
was "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch. I found I certainly
didn't agree with everything he wrote but some of the questions he asked
were also questions I had and as I read the book and sorted out what I
believed I came to feel a sense of peace with my own beliefs. Ren said it
well. Real Peace. And it's a very cool place, for sure.
Before I came to that place, I walked aroudn with a lot of guilt. I wasn't
even aware of how much guilt I was carrying until I let it all go and felt
an enormous sense of peace. I even sat down with my pastor and talked about
things that I felt were inconsistant between Christianity and just being a
good person and I was pleasantly surprised to find that she shared my ideas
even though they were inconsistant with what a lot of us had been taught.
She said it was difficult to talk about some of these things in sermons
because people don't take change well but that she tried in little ways to
open people's minds more and more without shaking their whole foundations.
I stopped going to church at that point (probably 8 years ago) because I
realized that even though I enjoyed parts of it, I really went out of a
sense of guilt. I may attend a church again some day but for now it doesn't
fit in my life and that's okay with me.
I'm not sure if there is a term that describes or sums up what I believe.
I'm sure I'm not a Christian in most Christian's eyes but I do feel that God
is part of this world in some way and I do believe that people who are able
to give up their worries to some higher power (or just unburden themselves
of them somehow) can feel more peaceful than those who carry too much
baggage around all the time.
It's funny, the only time I feel guilty about anything religion related is
when I visit one relative who, if she knew how I felt, would carry the
burden of worry for my soul. I conceal what I believe when conversations
turn toward religion because I feel like she carries enough guilt for us all
and I don't want to place anymore burden on her. I know she does NOT want
to question anything because it would rock her world too much.
Angela Shaw
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet Renk
---
<<Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system? How
did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?>>
Unschooling, for me, has been the open door/path to many improvements in my life. While I first started exploring and implementing unschooling because it meshed with our parenting philosophy, it opened so many other doors that have provided many benefits. Unschooling helped my husband and me in our marriage (without paying a counselor), it helped us as a family, it helped me to accept myself and the biggest thing of all, as I learned to trust my children I learned to trust myself. And that finally gave me the courage to ask those very tough, frightening question and look within myself for answers. I've been going through a long period of deconstructing my faith, and for the first time I can recall, I'm at peace. And it did start with unschooling. I would think that other people have had the same experience.
I don't know what to say to you about feeling guilt. In my experience, guilt is part of the religious experience. As you keep questioning and learning to listen to yourself, I think that feeling of guilt will go away and you will find peace. For me peace came from listening to myself.
My dh isn't exactly on the same page with me, either. While he has most of the same questions I do, he's not one to rock the boat and is more apt to remain status quo. I think it helps when you have someone to talk with. Do you have a friend who is open to listening to you talk about faith, and not one who is going to try to convert you? When I started questioning Christianity and religion, most of my women friends started praying for me, then vocally telling me the right thing - according to them - and finally, dropping my friendship. So ultimately I was alone. And maybe that was good because I had to listen to myself. It's hard to clear out those old controlling voices when new voices are constantly filling your mind.
All this to say that I've been where you are and am still working on all the baggage I've been carrying around. You can e-mail me if you have any questions just about religion and working through it. I don't know how much help I would be, but it is good to have someone listen to you at times.
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did
most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system? How
did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?>>
Unschooling, for me, has been the open door/path to many improvements in my life. While I first started exploring and implementing unschooling because it meshed with our parenting philosophy, it opened so many other doors that have provided many benefits. Unschooling helped my husband and me in our marriage (without paying a counselor), it helped us as a family, it helped me to accept myself and the biggest thing of all, as I learned to trust my children I learned to trust myself. And that finally gave me the courage to ask those very tough, frightening question and look within myself for answers. I've been going through a long period of deconstructing my faith, and for the first time I can recall, I'm at peace. And it did start with unschooling. I would think that other people have had the same experience.
I don't know what to say to you about feeling guilt. In my experience, guilt is part of the religious experience. As you keep questioning and learning to listen to yourself, I think that feeling of guilt will go away and you will find peace. For me peace came from listening to myself.
My dh isn't exactly on the same page with me, either. While he has most of the same questions I do, he's not one to rock the boat and is more apt to remain status quo. I think it helps when you have someone to talk with. Do you have a friend who is open to listening to you talk about faith, and not one who is going to try to convert you? When I started questioning Christianity and religion, most of my women friends started praying for me, then vocally telling me the right thing - according to them - and finally, dropping my friendship. So ultimately I was alone. And maybe that was good because I had to listen to myself. It's hard to clear out those old controlling voices when new voices are constantly filling your mind.
All this to say that I've been where you are and am still working on all the baggage I've been carrying around. You can e-mail me if you have any questions just about religion and working through it. I don't know how much help I would be, but it is good to have someone listen to you at times.
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~For me peace came from listening to myself.~~
Same here.
If it comes from some external source, that's too much like trusting
the "experts" for my taste. Especially when the deity in question is a
male figure.;)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Same here.
If it comes from some external source, that's too much like trusting
the "experts" for my taste. Especially when the deity in question is a
male figure.;)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], "melissa_hice" <mhice@...> wrote:
Unschooling God's Journey, I think.
: )
> Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? DidDid you know there is a yahoo group for these sorts of questions?
> most of you at some point begin questioning your belief system?
Unschooling God's Journey, I think.
: )
Sandra Dodd
Oh, THAT's where those went! Sorry. I've been working on a response
on the side of doing other things. I might be setting the record for
the most windows opened at once on a Mac.
-=-One very real concern is that Melissa's husband is reacting
negatively. Will
he cope with her questioning? Will he have the courage to face the
questions
himself, or will he continue to maintain his comfort zone? Is it
important
enough to her to take the risk of destabilising her marriage? How
strong is
the marriage - will it cope??? It also sounds like there is unlikely
to be a
supportive or sympathetic response from the extended family. Is it worth
rocking the boat so hard? These are tough questions that only she can
answer. -=-
I don't think it's at all reasonable to risk a marriage. Kids need
their parents more than they need unschooling. And honestly, there's
the question of breach of contract, in a marriage, if at the point of
the marriage they're both very Christian, and the marriage is based
in that belief.
I don't believe in heaven OR hell, but I see the crushing effects of
divorce in young adults all around me. That is real, no matter what
people believe about God.
-=-Unschooling helped my husband and me in our marriage (without
paying a counselor), it helped us as a family, it helped me to accept
myself and the biggest thing of all, as I learned to trust my
children I learned to trust myself. -=-
Yes it can help, or it can hurt. Go gradually. Anyone who missed
this link might want to look at it in light of these religious
considerations:
<http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/05/happiness-freedom-and-peace-
of-mind.html>
or
http://tinyurl.com/59m7od
(thanks, Barbara)
Sandra
on the side of doing other things. I might be setting the record for
the most windows opened at once on a Mac.
-=-One very real concern is that Melissa's husband is reacting
negatively. Will
he cope with her questioning? Will he have the courage to face the
questions
himself, or will he continue to maintain his comfort zone? Is it
important
enough to her to take the risk of destabilising her marriage? How
strong is
the marriage - will it cope??? It also sounds like there is unlikely
to be a
supportive or sympathetic response from the extended family. Is it worth
rocking the boat so hard? These are tough questions that only she can
answer. -=-
I don't think it's at all reasonable to risk a marriage. Kids need
their parents more than they need unschooling. And honestly, there's
the question of breach of contract, in a marriage, if at the point of
the marriage they're both very Christian, and the marriage is based
in that belief.
I don't believe in heaven OR hell, but I see the crushing effects of
divorce in young adults all around me. That is real, no matter what
people believe about God.
-=-Unschooling helped my husband and me in our marriage (without
paying a counselor), it helped us as a family, it helped me to accept
myself and the biggest thing of all, as I learned to trust my
children I learned to trust myself. -=-
Yes it can help, or it can hurt. Go gradually. Anyone who missed
this link might want to look at it in light of these religious
considerations:
<http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/05/happiness-freedom-and-peace-
of-mind.html>
or
http://tinyurl.com/59m7od
(thanks, Barbara)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
A more personal take on Hell and that, than my last post.
I have a few things:
1) http://sandradodd.com/theology
A large chunk of that was a smart-ass bit with Ren Allen on a list
years ago.
2) Something I got in side/private e-mail this morning and I'd like
to quote it without naming the shy author.
=====================
~~My confidence is not in what I believe, but in Him~~
But that IS a belief.
Not only that there is a God but that the God is male. That's a lot
of belief.
======================
3) When I was in my early teens I seriously planned to become a
Baptist missionary. I hoped fervently to save souls.
I had not ever saved a soul that I knew of, when I was on the
*Prodigy homeschooling boards and challenged the thinking of someone
who was heavy into a particularly controlling congregation of the
Church of Christ. Questions I asked her about her relationship with
her children caused her to question her relationship with the church.
Her asking me how I functioned without religion caused her to
question her faith.
I not only have never saved a soul, I had the huge feeling that I had
lured one away from Jesus. Not a good feeling after all those years
of planning and praying.
4) Ren wrote, "I started reading a lot of history that didn't mesh
with what I'd been
taught all those years"
It helped me to study other denominations within Christianity and to
try go get a neutral, historical background for the Protestant
movement, and to sort backwards through how and why churches split up
and out. You can start now and move backwards (the difference
between American and Southern Baptists; what are "Missouri Synod
Lutherans"? What's the difference between an Episcopal church and
Anglican?), or start during the reformation and move forward. What's
with Anabaptists and Lutherans and Puritans?
And then, if you're American, realize that other English-speaking
places didn't have this level of crap. And if you're not American,
you might possibly sympathize with (or laugh at) the serious
problems some Americans face, living in the Bible Belt or in other
religious situations. These people aren't messing around here. Some
of the churches shun bigtime if you get out of line. Some people
find they can't do commerce in certain communities if they're not the
right religion. The effect on homeschooling and unschooling is no
joke here, either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a few things:
1) http://sandradodd.com/theology
A large chunk of that was a smart-ass bit with Ren Allen on a list
years ago.
2) Something I got in side/private e-mail this morning and I'd like
to quote it without naming the shy author.
=====================
~~My confidence is not in what I believe, but in Him~~
But that IS a belief.
Not only that there is a God but that the God is male. That's a lot
of belief.
======================
3) When I was in my early teens I seriously planned to become a
Baptist missionary. I hoped fervently to save souls.
I had not ever saved a soul that I knew of, when I was on the
*Prodigy homeschooling boards and challenged the thinking of someone
who was heavy into a particularly controlling congregation of the
Church of Christ. Questions I asked her about her relationship with
her children caused her to question her relationship with the church.
Her asking me how I functioned without religion caused her to
question her faith.
I not only have never saved a soul, I had the huge feeling that I had
lured one away from Jesus. Not a good feeling after all those years
of planning and praying.
4) Ren wrote, "I started reading a lot of history that didn't mesh
with what I'd been
taught all those years"
It helped me to study other denominations within Christianity and to
try go get a neutral, historical background for the Protestant
movement, and to sort backwards through how and why churches split up
and out. You can start now and move backwards (the difference
between American and Southern Baptists; what are "Missouri Synod
Lutherans"? What's the difference between an Episcopal church and
Anglican?), or start during the reformation and move forward. What's
with Anabaptists and Lutherans and Puritans?
And then, if you're American, realize that other English-speaking
places didn't have this level of crap. And if you're not American,
you might possibly sympathize with (or laugh at) the serious
problems some Americans face, living in the Bible Belt or in other
religious situations. These people aren't messing around here. Some
of the churches shun bigtime if you get out of line. Some people
find they can't do commerce in certain communities if they're not the
right religion. The effect on homeschooling and unschooling is no
joke here, either.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet Renk
<<I don't think it's at all reasonable to risk a marriage. Kids need
their parents more than they need unschooling. And honestly, there's
the question of breach of contract, in a marriage, if at the point of
the marriage they're both very Christian, and the marriage is based
in that belief.
I don't believe in heaven OR hell, but I see the crushing effects of
divorce in young adults all around me. That is real, no matter what
people believe about God.>>
Absolutely. I mentioned in my other e-mail that my husband isn't where I am with a belief system. Because of voices from his childhood that he can't shake or whatever, he is still with the religion program. He has many, many questions, but he will have to deal with those in his own way, in his own time. Anyway, for him he still feels it's his responsibility to raise his children with a belief system. When they're grown, if they move away from church, he sees that as their decision. But right now he feels responsible for sharing this with them. He knows I don't believe. But I'm not willing to split up this family over religion. There have been too many broken families and wars over religion already. Plus when we married, we both came into the marriage with the same beliefs. I'm the one that has changed. But my marriage is much more important to me and my children than drawing some line in the sand over religion. So I go to church with him and the younger girls.
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their parents more than they need unschooling. And honestly, there's
the question of breach of contract, in a marriage, if at the point of
the marriage they're both very Christian, and the marriage is based
in that belief.
I don't believe in heaven OR hell, but I see the crushing effects of
divorce in young adults all around me. That is real, no matter what
people believe about God.>>
Absolutely. I mentioned in my other e-mail that my husband isn't where I am with a belief system. Because of voices from his childhood that he can't shake or whatever, he is still with the religion program. He has many, many questions, but he will have to deal with those in his own way, in his own time. Anyway, for him he still feels it's his responsibility to raise his children with a belief system. When they're grown, if they move away from church, he sees that as their decision. But right now he feels responsible for sharing this with them. He knows I don't believe. But I'm not willing to split up this family over religion. There have been too many broken families and wars over religion already. Plus when we married, we both came into the marriage with the same beliefs. I'm the one that has changed. But my marriage is much more important to me and my children than drawing some line in the sand over religion. So I go to church with him and the younger girls.
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 7:26 PM, melissa_hice <mhice@...> wrote:
challenging times, is: Convictions aren't convictions if they're never
challenged.
I've found lots of room for faith in this life, not so much room for church.
That was the biggie for me. God outside the box. Liberating, scary and oh,
so BIG!!
for his sins (even with last rites, you just never know with some people,
ime). So, I did the research. As with all things Catholic, the Pagan roots
of this term are purposely skewed with control through fear. Hel was a
perfectly nice deity, though Odin found her "hard to look at" with her grey
and pink slimy skin. As to not upset his good friend, Loki, he gave Hel and
important (and joyfully invisible) job of transporting souls of those who
have died after an illness. She was connected to the underworld and dealt
with souls of sick people -- pretty easy to understand why folks were scared
of Hel. To curse someone with "Go to Hel(l)" is truly a wish of cancer or
pox upon them; a lingering illness followed by death.
That helped put a lot of "fire and brimstone" rhetoric to rest. And since
Mitch died of cancer, he just may have gone to Hel; for care and transport
:)
children. Even better, the process of *actively* NOT being that mom is the
best healing for having *had* that mom.
Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did most of
cannot be limited, fenced or hindered. The whole wide world is open to
exploration and question. If God can't handle our questioning, who can??
::bg:: I'm doing a circle chat later this month on this very topic, it's
near and dear to me. I think I've got my whole life to figure out this human
existence and anything that may be beyond this physicality. If there is a
God and indeed I am created in God's image, then this is a God Approved
Journey. I am diana, this is what God has wrought; questions, demands,
tantrums, gratitude and all :)
I've read the most amazing books :) Foremost, the first three Conversations
with God. Wow, wow, wow. A gigantic shift in perspective for me. Lamb: The
Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. The funniest Jesus you'll
ever meet. Likable and believable. I can strive to emulate this guy :) And:
The Four Agreements. The Journey Home. The Moon Under Her Feet. The Harlot
by the Side of the Road. The Red Tent. Jesus, Who Needs Him?
How did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
condemned to hell? Really? I'd recommend you try on the idea that mayhap you
were created to explore what it means to be human and have a relationship
with God that is uniquely your own. You have free will. You know the
principles by which to lead a good life. Is there room in your heart for
Fear? Were you created to be filled with Fear or Love? You can't have one
where the other exists. If God is Love, Fear is not God. Free yourself from
fear, it's glorious!
I tried talking to my husband, but it frankly scares him to hear me talk in
can question your path and still have faith. You can question the rules and
still uphold the principles.
I found ways to be Catholic and truly *love* being Catholic; I questioned
everything & I knew the story behind the stories told, the original purpose
to rites and rituals, the principles behind the dogma. I still do love the
Catholic Faith *and* I will not support the actions and politics of the
Catholic Church - so I'm not Catholic anymore. I know my relationship with
my version of God is a good one. Come that day, that's all I'll have to
answer for.
I still know in my heart that I am a Christian, but things just don't seem
I think he questioned it ALL :)
Whew! I kinda went nuts there, I hope some of it is helpful to someone else,
it was incredibly cathartic to write it down :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I've begun to question the role of mainstream Christianity in my life.Question everything!!! :::vbg::: One of my favorite lines, especially during
>
challenging times, is: Convictions aren't convictions if they're never
challenged.
I've found lots of room for faith in this life, not so much room for church.
That was the biggie for me. God outside the box. Liberating, scary and oh,
so BIG!!
> I was raised with the typical belief that you have to be good or you willI worried that some folks might tell my kids that their father went to Hell
> go to Hell.
>
for his sins (even with last rites, you just never know with some people,
ime). So, I did the research. As with all things Catholic, the Pagan roots
of this term are purposely skewed with control through fear. Hel was a
perfectly nice deity, though Odin found her "hard to look at" with her grey
and pink slimy skin. As to not upset his good friend, Loki, he gave Hel and
important (and joyfully invisible) job of transporting souls of those who
have died after an illness. She was connected to the underworld and dealt
with souls of sick people -- pretty easy to understand why folks were scared
of Hel. To curse someone with "Go to Hel(l)" is truly a wish of cancer or
pox upon them; a lingering illness followed by death.
That helped put a lot of "fire and brimstone" rhetoric to rest. And since
Mitch died of cancer, he just may have gone to Hel; for care and transport
:)
> Couple that with an abusive, manipulative, controlling mother and you canUnschooling brings the opportunity to not pass these qualities to our
> bet I've got lots of hang-ups.
>
children. Even better, the process of *actively* NOT being that mom is the
best healing for having *had* that mom.
Is this a typical thing to go through as an unschooling parent? Did most of
> you at some point begin questioning your belief system?I would say yes. The questioning, like anything else in this human life,
>
cannot be limited, fenced or hindered. The whole wide world is open to
exploration and question. If God can't handle our questioning, who can??
::bg:: I'm doing a circle chat later this month on this very topic, it's
near and dear to me. I think I've got my whole life to figure out this human
existence and anything that may be beyond this physicality. If there is a
God and indeed I am created in God's image, then this is a God Approved
Journey. I am diana, this is what God has wrought; questions, demands,
tantrums, gratitude and all :)
I've read the most amazing books :) Foremost, the first three Conversations
with God. Wow, wow, wow. A gigantic shift in perspective for me. Lamb: The
Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. The funniest Jesus you'll
ever meet. Likable and believable. I can strive to emulate this guy :) And:
The Four Agreements. The Journey Home. The Moon Under Her Feet. The Harlot
by the Side of the Road. The Red Tent. Jesus, Who Needs Him?
How did you deal with the guilt (I have such a tremendous amount right now)
> and the fear of doing the wrong thing and landing yourself in Hell?Would God really be so scared of your exploration that you would be
>
condemned to hell? Really? I'd recommend you try on the idea that mayhap you
were created to explore what it means to be human and have a relationship
with God that is uniquely your own. You have free will. You know the
principles by which to lead a good life. Is there room in your heart for
Fear? Were you created to be filled with Fear or Love? You can't have one
where the other exists. If God is Love, Fear is not God. Free yourself from
fear, it's glorious!
I tried talking to my husband, but it frankly scares him to hear me talk in
> such a way. He thinks I should just quit thinking about it and go on toYour relationship with God is your own; you answer only for yourself. You
> church and leave things alone. I wouldn't dare talk to my mother-in-law. Not
> only would she have a major cow, she would worry herself sick that I was
> leading her son and her grandchildren astray. My mother is out of the
> question as is anyone in our congregation.
>
can question your path and still have faith. You can question the rules and
still uphold the principles.
I found ways to be Catholic and truly *love* being Catholic; I questioned
everything & I knew the story behind the stories told, the original purpose
to rites and rituals, the principles behind the dogma. I still do love the
Catholic Faith *and* I will not support the actions and politics of the
Catholic Church - so I'm not Catholic anymore. I know my relationship with
my version of God is a good one. Come that day, that's all I'll have to
answer for.
I still know in my heart that I am a Christian, but things just don't seem
> right anymore. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus would approve of whatWhat would Jesus do?
> churches have become and how manipulative and conrolling they are.
>
I think he questioned it ALL :)
Whew! I kinda went nuts there, I hope some of it is helpful to someone else,
it was incredibly cathartic to write it down :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~If God can't handle our questioning, who can??~~
Ourselves.:)
I think people should question everything and anything, including the
existence of a God that has been handed down as a "truth". Think
dangerous thoughts, go outside every box you've ever known.
"God" is a concept or idea that came from other humans. What I'm
really tired of, is "God" as a male figure. How does that affect women?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ourselves.:)
I think people should question everything and anything, including the
existence of a God that has been handed down as a "truth". Think
dangerous thoughts, go outside every box you've ever known.
"God" is a concept or idea that came from other humans. What I'm
really tired of, is "God" as a male figure. How does that affect women?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
emmy
"God" is a concept or idea that came from other humans. What I'm
really tired of, is "God" as a male figure. How does that affect women?
a comment was made earlier to to the same point and i wanted to chime in to say that in the hebrew language grammatical gender doesn't indicate actual gender of an object. God is a "hebrew God" so to speak, then understanding the original language is crucial! an object is either masculine or feminine. in the hebrew translation of the bible God is described with both. those who aren't familiar with the language don't often realize this and refer to God in gender alone and not in grammatical sense!
its interesting to study as once you become aware of it, you will notice more of the feminine use in the bible! also note they don't have an equivant to "it", so even animals are refered to as she/he without acutally meaning gender.
in the honor of questioning-----SO if one were to believe God is spirit and we are created in
likeness to the Creator, wouldn't that include that the divine is indeed BOTH?
imagine a world without questions!!
without questions how would we find an answer?
emmy
www.foundthings.etsy.com
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
really tired of, is "God" as a male figure. How does that affect women?
a comment was made earlier to to the same point and i wanted to chime in to say that in the hebrew language grammatical gender doesn't indicate actual gender of an object. God is a "hebrew God" so to speak, then understanding the original language is crucial! an object is either masculine or feminine. in the hebrew translation of the bible God is described with both. those who aren't familiar with the language don't often realize this and refer to God in gender alone and not in grammatical sense!
its interesting to study as once you become aware of it, you will notice more of the feminine use in the bible! also note they don't have an equivant to "it", so even animals are refered to as she/he without acutally meaning gender.
in the honor of questioning-----SO if one were to believe God is spirit and we are created in
likeness to the Creator, wouldn't that include that the divine is indeed BOTH?
imagine a world without questions!!
without questions how would we find an answer?
emmy
www.foundthings.etsy.com
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula
>>But my marriage is much more important to me and my children than drawingsome line in the sand over religion. So I go to church with him and the
younger girls.<<
I've been reading this thread with interest and decided to pipe up here just
to share a big thing that happened in my marriage of 16 years in case it is
helpful to someone. We married young (21 and 22) and were both committed
converts to Christianity at the time we married. We both went to church and
had deep faith experiences over the years. One day (this year) my dh came
to me and sheepishly told me that he had been reading and thinking a lot
about God and the universe and everything and had come to the conclusion
that he considers himself to be an atheist. After the shock and some
tearful, worried conversations (worried about our marriage and the kids and
the future mostly) I was convinced that his new point of view did not change
our commitment to one another or to our marriage and that the fact that he
hadn't wanted to hide this big change in his life from me was a good thing.
The respect that bathed all of the talks we had about how this might change
our lives together as a family was very sweet and heartening.
The fact that he had the courage to face this honestly and with respect for
my feelings gave me the push I needed to really give the possibility of no
God an honest hearing - something I hadn't done as an adult. The short
version is that I too consider myself an atheist now and am wonderfully
surprised by the freedom of thought and fresh point of view this has given
me. This isn't the right list for the details but I think honesty and
integrity has helped and so has a healthy respect for each other and an
agreement that living joyfully together was really really important.
Neither one of us would want to split even if we didn't agree on matters of
faith because of the very real pain and suffering that divorce causes.
Hope I haven't veered too far afield. Our unschooling life is incidentally
greatly enhanced by these developments.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]