melgates@aol.com

Sandra wrote this morning in the thread about Alfie Kohn:



--It makes me crazy when I hear a mom say "They need to learn to work
these things out for themselves." It's such cop-out, and such
disregard for both the underdog kid AND the bullying kid, who is
learning clearly that he can get away with what he can get away with,
and his mother isn't going to interfere because she doesn't know or
care how to make peace.--




I have a group of friends who are firm believers in letting the kids work it
out (our kids are 5 and younger). I have never felt good about that, and as
a result have earned the titles of the Meddler, or the Overprotective One,
etc. (The kids, on the other hand, think of me as the Fun Mom, because I
actually spend a lot of time with them when we're together.) Frankly, until I
started coming here a few months ago, I thought I *was* perhaps doing something
wrong even though intuitively I felt I was on the right track.

Is there a page on your site, Sandra, that talks more about this? I find
myself tongue-tied and unable to really express why I think it's so important
to intervene in certain situations when our children are playing together.
The other moms very strongly feel -- and express -- that they think it's of
utmost importance to let the kids work things out themselves -- "how else will
they learn?" I admit that I'm not immune to the eye rolls and all the other
nonverbals I get when I do intervene (am working on that), which makes me
more tongue-tied. What Sandra wrote offers a lot of information about what is
at stake by not intervening... I'd like to read more thoughts about this so
perhaps I can better formulate and express myself with greater confidence.

Thanks, in advance,
Melinda
Mom to Zach, 5 1/2





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-as
a result have earned the titles of the Meddler, or the Overprotective
One,
etc. (The kids, on the other hand, think of me as the Fun Mom, -=-



Huh. I wonder if they think of those other moms as "the neglectful
mom" or "the incompetent mom"?

I do.

-=-Is there a page on your site, Sandra, that talks more about this?
I find myself tongue-tied and unable to really express why I think
it's so important to intervene in certain situations when our
children are playing together. -=-

Yes. And maybe ask those moms where they got that idea. I bet it's
one of those old voices in their heads, some grandma who didn't want
to hike out to the field to keep her boys from fighting in 1942.

-=-What Sandra wrote offers a lot of information about what is at
stake by not intervening... I'd like to read more thoughts about this
so perhaps I can better formulate and express myself with greater
confidence.-=-

I'll name some things at stake and then give some links:

safety

trust

relationship

Also, those who commit violent acts (at home or at school or
wherever) often report having been bullied.

My mom sat smoking a cigarette and drinking coffee or beer with a
friend or cousin, both of whom would tell us "Stay outside," and
"don't tattle." It was clearly lazy neglect.

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fightingcomments

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/
siblingsfighting.html

http://sandradodd.com/siblings

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-as
> a result have earned the titles of the Meddler, or the Overprotective
> One,
> etc. (The kids, on the other hand, think of me as the Fun Mom, -=-
>
>
>
> Huh. I wonder if they think of those other moms as "the neglectful
> mom" or "the incompetent mom"?
>
> I do.
>

I do too! Kids often have an incomplete picture and are unable or unwilling to gain clarity
of the situation. A caring adult can do that, help with perspective and understanding so
that growth and compassion can come out of an ugly situation. It takes an exceptionally
talented child at interpersonal interactions to pull that off at four years old. I've probably
seen it, but mostly I've seen kids five and under acting out their own feelings of hurt,
anger, frustration and taking it out on the kids around them, because that's what kids
often do. They don't have the empathy yet to really be able to shift into seeing someone
else's point of view until their own is completely heard, and when you've got two in that
same boat trying to work it out alone, you generally have blow ups that are preventable or
fixable by an involved mom or two.

These days playgroups are usually made of up like-age kids. That is a school model.
Playgroups with mixed ages are so much more functional in this area--sometimes some
of the older kids will help the younger kids solve problems before they even come to the
adults attention. I wish I had known this sort of stuff when my kids were younger,
because we dealt with the same issues as you are--the blind leading the blind! We were
all parents of young ones, and didn't have the perspective that comes from being around
older kids, and moms of older kids who can be models for what can work better.

The idea that kids should work it out themselves can work o.k.--but only up until the
point that someone gets stuck. You can always tell when it really isn't working anymore
and they need help--negotiations have fallen through and war is declared. Nothing good
comes out of it for kids to keep going past this point. They just learn that the strongest,
loudest or most hurt will get their way.

I suggest seeing if you can find some other like-minded families to hang with if your
efforts to educate the other moms don't work--because you'll always be the odd-mom-
out if their views are that set. And the other thing is, as the kids get older, you will find
that there will be more and more that you don't agree with.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-I wish I had known this sort of stuff when my kids were younger,
because we dealt with the same issues as you are--the blind leading
the blind! We were
all parents of young ones, and didn't have the perspective that comes
from being around
older kids, and moms of older kids who can be models for what can
work better.-=-

That argument has been made about online support of moms with young
children only helping other moms of young children. When the whole
path can be lit at once, why huddle together at the mysterious entrance?

I still have vivid memories of many incidents in my childhood. I
have a couple of memories from before I could talk; one before I
could walk, maybe (or around that time. I have LOTS of memories of
childhood at home, at school, at relatives' houses, all kinds of
places where same-aged kids were expected to work it out and WORSE:
punished for "tattling." So the second-level safety of calling for
help or getting an adult was a second crime.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard "Don't tell me your
problems," or "You probably asked for it" or "just ignore it" or
whatever all I would buy a Mac Air Book TODAY!

When moms are only looking at three year olds and the oldest other
people they see are five, they're not planning very clearly very far
ahead.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

g-liberatedlearning

> I have a group of friends who are firm believers in letting the
> kids work it
> out (our kids are 5 and younger).


> ... I'd like to read more thoughts about this so
> perhaps I can better formulate and express myself with greater
> confidence.

My experience has been that it can be very difficult to change other
mothers' minds about parenting issues like this. If I were faced
with your situation I would resolve f to at least assert that, "I
disagree and as far as my kids are concerned I will intervene." Then
I'd keep a watchful eye and keen ear out so that I can step in early
and often if necessary. If the other mothers continued to criticize
me or roll their eyes I'd tell them that I had my own reasons and if
they're interested in my perspective I can direct them to some
reading (on Sandra's website or wherever else you may find support
for parents helping children learn how to get along in society.)


Chris
Radically Unschooling in Iowa
The Unzone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Wilkinson

I actually said "I am not getting involved" today. I wouldn't have
said it 2 years ago, but today I was with my 11 year old and a 13
year old who were in a disagreement. I had seen the whole thing play
out and I didn't think I had a good opinion in the matter. It never
got out of control and the 13yo friend just ended up letting it go.
I don't think with too hard of feelings about it, but maybe with a
new perspective of my son. It was a trade thing and my son had just
agreed to the trade with "no trades back" and then about 10 seconds
later said "never mind, I don't want to trade" (he was still holding
both items). The friend was saying "too late", my son was
saying, "No. I changed my mind."
When I was asked to give my opinion, I felt it was better for me to
stay out of it, because I thought if I got involved it would take it
to another level. Boys tend to not think like we girls and I would
probably have thrown out stuff they hadn't even considered and more
resentment may have set in. The issue dropped with a distraction and
it didn't get brought back up.
I have gotten involved and regretted it before. As they get older, I
feel more comfortable letting them "work it out". Though, it's a
situational thing of course.

Joanna W.

Clarissa Fetrow

The name calling and eye rolling that you have received sounds quite
disrespectful. It would be hard for me to express myself too, in that
unsupportive atmosphere. Is there even one other mom in the group who
is on your wave length?

On 4/10/08, melgates@... <melgates@...> wrote:
>
> Sandra wrote this morning in the thread about Alfie Kohn:
>
>
>
> --It makes me crazy when I hear a mom say "They need to learn to work
> these things out for themselves." It's such cop-out, and such
> disregard for both the underdog kid AND the bullying kid, who is
> learning clearly that he can get away with what he can get away with,
> and his mother isn't going to interfere because she doesn't know or
> care how to make peace.--
>
>
>
>
> I have a group of friends who are firm believers in letting the kids work
> it
> out (our kids are 5 and younger). I have never felt good about that, and
> as
> a result have earned the titles of the Meddler, or the Overprotective One,
> etc. (The kids, on the other hand, think of me as the Fun Mom, because I
> actually spend a lot of time with them when we're together.) Frankly,
> until I
> started coming here a few months ago, I thought I *was* perhaps doing
> something
> wrong even though intuitively I felt I was on the right track.
>
> Is there a page on your site, Sandra, that talks more about this? I find
> myself tongue-tied and unable to really express why I think it's so
> important
> to intervene in certain situations when our children are playing together.
> The other moms very strongly feel -- and express -- that they think it's of
>
> utmost importance to let the kids work things out themselves -- "how else
> will
> they learn?" I admit that I'm not immune to the eye rolls and all the
> other
> nonverbals I get when I do intervene (am working on that), which makes me
> more tongue-tied. What Sandra wrote offers a lot of information about what
> is
> at stake by not intervening... I'd like to read more thoughts about this so
> perhaps I can better formulate and express myself with greater confidence.
>
> Thanks, in advance,
> Melinda
> Mom to Zach, 5 1/2
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
>
>
> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>