ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

Dr. James McKenna at Northwestern University has a great website for his sleep labs: http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/. Dr. Helen Ball at the University Durham as a sleep-lab as well and a website: http://www.dur.ac.uk/sleep.lab/projects/. Dr. Carol Wortham at Emory University has a great paper on sleep at http://tinyurl.com/6yyvdc. It talks about the contexts in which humans sleep. I didn't read the whole thing, but there was a lovely, relevant passage:
Components of Human Sleep Ecology
Sleep behavior and architecture clearly have strong biological determinants.
Yet consider Henri Rousseau’s famous picture, Sleeping Gypsy, in
which a rigidly prostrate, colorfully clad dusky figure, clutching a stick,
lies asleep on bare earth amid a barren landscape beneath a blank full
moon, under the alert gaze of an adjacent lion. The impact of the painting
relies largely on what is missing, namely the usual social and material
contexts of sleep, and the sense of danger aroused when these contexts
are absent.A solitary, unprotected, and unequipped sleeper is an aberration;
for humans, sleep is embedded in behaviorally, socially, and culturally
constituted environments enabling safe sleep. Safety concerns not
only macropredators such as lions or human enemies, but also buffering
elements, protection from micropredators such as mosquitoes, and general
reduction of external disturbance and predation risk. Safety also inheres
in membership in a well-functioning social group that frames and
populates the context for sleep. Shelter for and accoutrements of sleep
define its physical microenvironment. Moreover, the diurnal patterning
of sleep is influenced by a set of structural and cultural features operating
variably across the life course, including labor demands, schedules
of social and ritual activity, status and role differentiation, and beliefs
about the nature and functions of sleep.

I liked the line "A solitary, unprotected, and unequipped sleeper is an aberration; for humans, sleep is embedded in behaviourally, socially, and culturally constituted environments enabling safe sleep.

I found that article hard to read. And the term self-soothe disturbs at a level I can't even begin to not vent about it. David, my husband, has a paper on co-sleeping and stress in children. The abstract is here: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/114800801/ABSTRACT. If you want I can get him to send you a copy, he says it has a decent introduction to the research on co-sleeping.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com



----- Original Message ----
From: DaBreeze21 <susanmay15@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 April, 2008 7:32:55 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: relatives, changes, and why we can unschool

Yesterday my SIL (husband's sister) sent an article to my husband and
their father. Here is the link:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1728755,00.html

Since my daughter is only 21 months this is definitely one of the most
relevant examples that I could add to this discussion. This article is
about a study and how children should not sleep with their parents --
that they should learn to sleep on their own. Well, my SIL knows that
our daughter sleeps with us (and still nurses). So I'm not sure if she
thinks that sending this article will make us want to change how we do
things or what. I'm sure that if we brought it up to her she would
tell us she was trying to help us because the article says that doing
these things (sleeping with your child) can cause health problems
later on. Whether it is true that she wants to help us, and/or how
much she wants proof that their ways of doing things with their son
(our nephew)are better, only she can know. What I do know is that
since my daughter has been born we have been working on finding the
path that is right for our family. Part of that for me is to stop
worrying about what other people think - including family. I find that
I often feel I'm doing better about this (especially when we don't see
them!) but that I take steps backwards when I do have contact with
people that I perceive as questioning me (even if they aren't openly).

Anyways, I also wondered what is my best way of doing more research
about studies like this one? It makes me sad to think that more people
who might consider and enjoy sleeping with their children will be
discouraged by another "expert" opinion. Even after reading the
article I could start to think of some ways that the study might not
be credible. But I thought I would throw it out to some of you who
might have more insight and experience dissecting studies.

Susan






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mary

--- In [email protected], ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
<s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> I liked the line "A solitary, unprotected, and unequipped sleeper is
an aberration; for humans, sleep is embedded in behaviourally,
socially, and culturally constituted environments enabling safe sleep.




This is a great point.

Well, as someone who has just recently changed up the sleeping thing
in our house I just wanted to chime in. For a couple of weeks we have
been trying to get oldest dd(5) to fall asleep on her own in her own
bed(I know, I know...). We had our own reasons-not b/c of anyone elses
say so but, anyway...
Well we've gotten rid of "bedtime" and gone to *if you want to get
into our bed and read then we'll sleep if you want to* Last night I
turned off the light and dd starts giggling uncontrollably(you know
that kind of laugh that you know just means bliss). And I ask her
what's up? She says "I just feel so good and warm and cozy being in
your bed." Enough said for me to know we're doing the right thing now.

Well, at least it didn't take me forever to figure things out! It's
less stress, kids are sleeping well and so far we all feel much more
peaceful.

peace,
mary

Joylyn

Well, maybe you all would be wililng to write Amy and tell her she was wrong in her advice to a mom... Here is the letter...

Exasperated single mom wants her son to sleep in his own bed

Dear Amy: I am a single mom raising a 21/2-year-old son. My son refuses to sleep in his bed through the night. He is up at least three times a night, wanting to lie in bed with me or lie on the couch. I lie on the floor by his bed and tell him to lie in his bed and go back to sleep. He refuses to stay in his bed, so he lies on the floor with me.

I just started a new job working an overnight shift. When I work, my son stays at Grandma and Grandpa's overnight. He sleeps all night and does not get out of his bed.

Am I handling this the wrong way?

How can I get my son to break this habit?

— Frustrated

Dear Frustrated: The best way to break a child's habit is to change the parent's behavior.

Your son should stay in his bed for the sake of both of you. When he wanders around at night and sleeps on the couch or floor, he isn't getting the rest he needs. You also must be well-rested to take good care of him during the day.

Do not wander around with him at night or sleep on the floor of his room. The message you should convey is that nighttime is for sleeping and that everybody sleeps in his or her own bed.

Establish a nice, unhurried bedtime ritual, and ask him to pick out which stuffed animal will sleep with him each night.

When your son wanders or climbs in with you, take him by the hand and lead him back into his room. Place him in his bed and tuck him in. Don't speak and quickly leave the room. He will balk. He will cry and seem bereft. Do not cave.

You may have to take him back to his bed many times the first night, but he needs to have the experience of falling asleep and waking up in his own bed. The second night will be easier, and if you stay calm, consistent and firm, he should be in a new pattern by the third or fourth night.


---
This is what *I* wrote...

From: Joylyn Souter-Fowler <JSouterFowler@...> Add to Addresses Block Sender
To: askamy@... Add to Addresses
Cc: joylyn1@... Add to Addresses
Subject: Sleeping Children
Size: 7 KB

Amy, I was not pleased with your answer to the frustrated parent whose 2 1/2 year old son was wanting to sleep with her.

In many parts of the world, parents and children sleep together, in the same room and often in the same bed. This is considered normal.

Why do babies, children, need to grow up so quickly? Why does this child need to sleep alone? There is obviously a need that child has, to be in the same room, next to his mother. Why do we ignore this child's need and push him to be grown up when he hasn't even lived three years on this earth.

We should respect our children and their needs. There is nothing wrong with parents sharing sleep with their children. I always slept better with my young children close to me, I was there if they had a nightmare, or if there was an emergency such as a fire or earthquake. The quality time of sleeping close to my children made up for the time I missed when I was at work.

Furthermore, I am a parent 24 hours a day, and I really wanted my children from the time they were born to know that they could come to me and I would respond to their needs all the time, not just during waking hours. My children are now older, and we still have that special bond--there is no teenage angst in our home. And even though we don't share sleep regularly, my children still climb in bed for a cuddle.

What message are we giving to our children when we say we will not be with them during sleeping hours? Maybe when they are teens, they will remember this message, and not call us or trust us to respond to their worries and concerns.

Please, reconsider your advice--our society has pushed our children away long enough and the results of that are clear. Now it's time to pull our children closer to us, even at midnight, and even when we are tired.

Sign me.... An Attached Parent

Joylyn Souter

Bob Collier

Bravo!

Who is this Amy woman anyway?

"When your son wanders or climbs in with you, take him by the hand and
lead him back into his room. Place him in his bed and tuck him in.
Don't speak and quickly leave the room. He will balk. He will cry and
seem bereft. Do not cave."

Child management masquerading as parenting. I hate it. Solve a problem
now by generating three in the future. And then put the blame on the
child most likely instead of where it belongs with gonks like Amy.

Bob



--- In [email protected], Joylyn <joylyn1@...> wrote:
>
> Well, maybe you all would be wililng to write Amy and tell her she
was wrong in her advice to a mom... Here is the letter...
>
> Exasperated single mom wants her son to sleep in his own bed
>
> Dear Amy: I am a single mom raising a 21/2-year-old son. My son
refuses to sleep in his bed through the night. He is up at least three
times a night, wanting to lie in bed with me or lie on the couch. I
lie on the floor by his bed and tell him to lie in his bed and go back
to sleep. He refuses to stay in his bed, so he lies on the floor with me.
>
> I just started a new job working an overnight shift. When I work, my
son stays at Grandma and Grandpa's overnight. He sleeps all night and
does not get out of his bed.
>
> Am I handling this the wrong way?
>
> How can I get my son to break this habit?
>
> â€" Frustrated
>
> Dear Frustrated: The best way to break a child's habit is to change
the parent's behavior.
>
> Your son should stay in his bed for the sake of both of you. When he
wanders around at night and sleeps on the couch or floor, he isn't
getting the rest he needs. You also must be well-rested to take good
care of him during the day.
>
> Do not wander around with him at night or sleep on the floor of his
room. The message you should convey is that nighttime is for sleeping
and that everybody sleeps in his or her own bed.
>
> Establish a nice, unhurried bedtime ritual, and ask him to pick out
which stuffed animal will sleep with him each night.
>
> When your son wanders or climbs in with you, take him by the hand
and lead him back into his room. Place him in his bed and tuck him in.
Don't speak and quickly leave the room. He will balk. He will cry and
seem bereft. Do not cave.
>
> You may have to take him back to his bed many times the first night,
but he needs to have the experience of falling asleep and waking up in
his own bed. The second night will be easier, and if you stay calm,
consistent and firm, he should be in a new pattern by the third or
fourth night.
>
>
> ---
> This is what *I* wrote...
>
> From: Joylyn Souter-Fowler <JSouterFowler@...> Add to
Addresses Block Sender
> To: askamy@... Add to Addresses
> Cc: joylyn1@... Add to Addresses
> Subject: Sleeping Children
> Size: 7 KB
>
> Amy, I was not pleased with your answer to the frustrated parent
whose 2 1/2 year old son was wanting to sleep with her.
>
> In many parts of the world, parents and children sleep together, in
the same room and often in the same bed. This is considered normal.
>
> Why do babies, children, need to grow up so quickly? Why does this
child need to sleep alone? There is obviously a need that child has,
to be in the same room, next to his mother. Why do we ignore this
child's need and push him to be grown up when he hasn't even lived
three years on this earth.
>
> We should respect our children and their needs. There is nothing
wrong with parents sharing sleep with their children. I always slept
better with my young children close to me, I was there if they had a
nightmare, or if there was an emergency such as a fire or earthquake.
The quality time of sleeping close to my children made up for the time
I missed when I was at work.
>
> Furthermore, I am a parent 24 hours a day, and I really wanted my
children from the time they were born to know that they could come to
me and I would respond to their needs all the time, not just during
waking hours. My children are now older, and we still have that
special bond--there is no teenage angst in our home. And even though
we don't share sleep regularly, my children still climb in bed for a
cuddle.
>
> What message are we giving to our children when we say we will not
be with them during sleeping hours? Maybe when they are teens, they
will remember this message, and not call us or trust us to respond to
their worries and concerns.
>
> Please, reconsider your advice--our society has pushed our children
away long enough and the results of that are clear. Now it's time to
pull our children closer to us, even at midnight, and even when we are
tired.
>
> Sign me.... An Attached Parent
>
> Joylyn Souter
>

Kim Musolff

Awesome! I'm going to save this letter, so I know what to say to my
sister when she has her baby, tries to put her in the crib, and then calls
to ask me what to do when he keeps trying to crawl in bed with her when he's
3!
Kim

>
>
> Amy, I was not pleased with your answer to the frustrated parent whose 2
> 1/2 year old son was wanting to sleep with her.
>
> In many parts of the world, parents and children sleep together, in the
> same room and often in the same bed. This is considered normal.
>
> Why do babies, children, need to grow up so quickly? Why does this child
> need to sleep alone? There is obviously a need that child has, to be in the
> same room, next to his mother. Why do we ignore this child's need and push
> him to be grown up when he hasn't even lived three years on this earth.
>
> We should respect our children and their needs. There is nothing wrong
> with parents sharing sleep with their children. I always slept better with
> my young children close to me, I was there if they had a nightmare, or if
> there was an emergency such as a fire or earthquake. The quality time of
> sleeping close to my children made up for the time I missed when I was at
> work.
>
> Furthermore, I am a parent 24 hours a day, and I really wanted my children
> from the time they were born to know that they could come to me and I would
> respond to their needs all the time, not just during waking hours. My
> children are now older, and we still have that special bond--there is no
> teenage angst in our home. And even though we don't share sleep regularly,
> my children still climb in bed for a cuddle.
>
> What message are we giving to our children when we say we will not be with
> them during sleeping hours? Maybe when they are teens, they will remember
> this message, and not call us or trust us to respond to their worries and
> concerns.
>
> Please, reconsider your advice--our society has pushed our children away
> long enough and the results of that are clear. Now it's time to pull our
> children closer to us, even at midnight, and even when we are tired.
>
> Sign me.... An Attached Parent
>
> Joylyn Souter
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim Musolff

***Your son should stay in his bed for the sake of both of you. When he
wanders around at night and sleeps on the couch or floor, he isn't getting
the rest he needs. You also must be well-rested to take good care of him
during the day.

Do not wander around with him at night or sleep on the floor of his room.
The message you should convey is that nighttime is for sleeping and that
everybody sleeps in his or her own bed.

Establish a nice, unhurried bedtime ritual, and ask him to pick out which
stuffed animal will sleep with him each night.

When your son wanders or climbs in with you, take him by the hand and lead
him back into his room. Place him in his bed and tuck him in. Don't speak
and quickly leave the room. He will balk. He will cry and seem bereft. Do
not cave.***

I'm sitting here at almost 2am, nursing my baby. I read this and wonder how
some mothers out there feel fulfilled when they almost never get the chance
to watch their babies/children fall asleep in their arms...
Kim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~I'm sitting here at almost 2am, nursing my baby. I read this and
wonder how some mothers out there feel fulfilled when they almost
never get the chance to watch their babies/children fall asleep in
their arms...~~

I got tears in my eyes remembering those lovely nights.

All I got from that horrid article is a very deep sadness for the
children who face sleep without comfort. The "lesson" they are really
learning is not that nighttime is for sleep, but that the adults they
trust don't give a shit about their needs.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Sandra Dodd

In all of this I've been thinking about the question about how to
research co-sleeping, or Family Bed, or having nursing babies in bed
with the mom. Reading the book The Family Bed would be helpful.
There was research behind that. You could buy the book used
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0895293579/ref=lp_g_1
or search for The Family Bed and read what people are writing about
the concept on parenting websites. There's quite a bit of info there.



The question about how to research something sounds to me pretty
schooly. I know it might not be what was thought, but it was the way
it was stated, and I'd like to riff on that in general.

If we were in a graduate class, researching it would involve finding
recent studies done probably by other grad students or PhD candidates.

How do people learn naturally about such things, though?

Observation, conversation, comparisons, extrapolating from what you
know already about various things:

architecture: What kinds of houses do humans live in? Who's had a
separate bedroom for each person, and since when?

biology: What mammals dig a separate den for each pup/cub/kit/whatever?

logic: What's the advantage of isolation? If sleeping alone in one
room is so great, why don't parents do it? Has "going to bed" become
so sexualized that a virgin child must "go to bed" alone?

Free-range thinking about such things can come to some interesting
questions which can then be followed to other answers and questions.

If "How do we learn more?" replaces "How do we research this?" the
answer becomes clearer and way more about unschooling, too.

Sandra

Ryan

Hi Susan.

I would say, first of all, that the article was a travesty of bad
reasoning, since it made one tenuous claim (certain parental habits
can cause infants to wake more and sleep less) then "supported" that
with two totally unrelated studies that simply showed that getting
too little sleep can be connected to other physical or mental health
issues. There isn't any actual study referenced here that shows in
any way shape or form that co-sleeping causes children to sleep less
or that co-sleeping leads to any sleep-related issues. The article,
through it's poor construction, tries to leave readers with that
impression, but nothing here justifies that notion.

I would have to dig up some of the research I did when my son was
born (proud co-sleepers until my son was 5 and my daughter was 3, and
then they asked for their own rooms). But some of the research I
remember showed that infants who co-sleep and breast feed (the
natural human manner of being with infants) had much higher levels of
brain activity while they slept. They slept lighter, true, but while
sleeping they were in fact learning! They react to the sounds and
smells of the mother, and even in sleep interact with her body all
night. Infants sleeping alone in fact go into such deep brain
shutdown that they are nearly in a coma, with very little brain wave
activity. Which makes sense - infants left alone go into a kind of
hibernation, shutting down all but essential bodily functions in
order to conserve energy. Infants sleeping skin to skin with their
mothers is the natural way for infants to live in the world, and I
think the scienfitic literature, if looked at in total and
objectively, makes a strong case that this is the optimal arrangement
for infants.

And the studies can't distinguish between quality of sleep and only
measure it in terms of hours. An infant is built by nature to sleep
lightly, to wake frequently to nurse, and to interact with the mother
continually (even their temperature regulates through contact with
the mother's skin). It's probably why several studies have showed a
10 point IQ improvement for co-sleeping infants.

The insistence that infants and toddlers and children sleep alone is
completely cultural, not grounded in science (regardless of how many
studies they toss out) and, to my mind, one more horrible thing done
to children.

We still sleep very flexibly. I never know who will end up sleeping
where, or waking where despite where they fell asleep. Now that my
son and daughter are older and spend most nights in their own beds, I
find that I miss them terribly. I wouldn't trade the way we slept
for anything.

Ryan

--- In [email protected], ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
<s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> Dr. James McKenna at Northwestern University has a great website
for his sleep labs: http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/. Dr. Helen Ball
at the University Durham as a sleep-lab as well and a website:
http://www.dur.ac.uk/sleep.lab/projects/. Dr. Carol Wortham at Emory
University has a great paper on sleep at http://tinyurl.com/6yyvdc.
It talks about the contexts in which humans sleep. I didn't read the
whole thing, but there was a lovely, relevant passage:
> Components of Human Sleep Ecology
> Sleep behavior and architecture clearly have strong biological
determinants.
> Yet consider Henri Rousseau’s famous picture, Sleeping Gypsy, in
> which a rigidly prostrate, colorfully clad dusky figure, clutching
a stick,
> lies asleep on bare earth amid a barren landscape beneath a blank
full
> moon, under the alert gaze of an adjacent lion. The impact of the
painting
> relies largely on what is missing, namely the usual social and
material
> contexts of sleep, and the sense of danger aroused when these
contexts
> are absent.A solitary, unprotected, and unequipped sleeper is an
aberration;
> for humans, sleep is embedded in behaviorally, socially, and
culturally
> constituted environments enabling safe sleep. Safety concerns not
> only macropredators such as lions or human enemies, but also
buffering
> elements, protection from micropredators such as mosquitoes, and
general
> reduction of external disturbance and predation risk. Safety also
inheres
> in membership in a well-functioning social group that frames and
> populates the context for sleep. Shelter for and accoutrements of
sleep
> define its physical microenvironment. Moreover, the diurnal
patterning
> of sleep is influenced by a set of structural and cultural features
operating
> variably across the life course, including labor demands, schedules
> of social and ritual activity, status and role differentiation, and
beliefs
> about the nature and functions of sleep.
>
> I liked the line "A solitary, unprotected, and unequipped sleeper
is an aberration; for humans, sleep is embedded in behaviourally,
socially, and culturally constituted environments enabling safe
sleep.
>
> I found that article hard to read. And the term self-soothe
disturbs at a level I can't even begin to not vent about it. David,
my husband, has a paper on co-sleeping and stress in children. The
abstract is here: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-
bin/abstract/114800801/ABSTRACT. If you want I can get him to send
you a copy, he says it has a decent introduction to the research on
co-sleeping.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: DaBreeze21 <susanmay15@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, 9 April, 2008 7:32:55 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: relatives, changes, and why we can
unschool
>
> Yesterday my SIL (husband's sister) sent an article to my husband
and
> their father. Here is the link:
>
> http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1728755,00.html
>
> Since my daughter is only 21 months this is definitely one of the
most
> relevant examples that I could add to this discussion. This article
is
> about a study and how children should not sleep with their parents -
-
> that they should learn to sleep on their own. Well, my SIL knows
that
> our daughter sleeps with us (and still nurses). So I'm not sure if
she
> thinks that sending this article will make us want to change how we
do
> things or what. I'm sure that if we brought it up to her she would
> tell us she was trying to help us because the article says that
doing
> these things (sleeping with your child) can cause health problems
> later on. Whether it is true that she wants to help us, and/or how
> much she wants proof that their ways of doing things with their son
> (our nephew)are better, only she can know. What I do know is that
> since my daughter has been born we have been working on finding the
> path that is right for our family. Part of that for me is to stop
> worrying about what other people think - including family. I find
that
> I often feel I'm doing better about this (especially when we don't
see
> them!) but that I take steps backwards when I do have contact with
> people that I perceive as questioning me (even if they aren't
openly).
>
> Anyways, I also wondered what is my best way of doing more research
> about studies like this one? It makes me sad to think that more
people
> who might consider and enjoy sleeping with their children will be
> discouraged by another "expert" opinion. Even after reading the
> article I could start to think of some ways that the study might not
> be credible. But I thought I would throw it out to some of you who
> might have more insight and experience dissecting studies.
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>