Alfie Kohn
Kim Musolff
I just watched Alfie Kohn's video based on his book, "Unconditional
Parenting." He's got me hooked. I'm going to check out the actual book
from the library tomorrow, and stop using punishments/rewards/praise ASAP!
My question is this: For those of you (most of you, I assume) who do not
punish/reward/praise, how do you draw the line between practicing this
"parenting with" style (as Kohn calls it) and being a permissive parent,
letting them do whatever they want? Any suggestions/advice on how to
implement this in real life?
Do you really NEVER have to punish/reward/praise? Or is it more about a
change in how you look at each situation?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Parenting." He's got me hooked. I'm going to check out the actual book
from the library tomorrow, and stop using punishments/rewards/praise ASAP!
My question is this: For those of you (most of you, I assume) who do not
punish/reward/praise, how do you draw the line between practicing this
"parenting with" style (as Kohn calls it) and being a permissive parent,
letting them do whatever they want? Any suggestions/advice on how to
implement this in real life?
Do you really NEVER have to punish/reward/praise? Or is it more about a
change in how you look at each situation?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 9, 2008, at 5:05 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:
Sometimes you may need to think beyond the immediate request to
figure out what they're really asking for so that you can find a safe
substitute or a better time.
Specific examples of when you feel you need to punish will help
people make it clearer. But, for example, a child running in a
crowded store doesn't need to run right there, but he is telling you
he's full of energy and needs a break to get that energy expended in
a better location. If it happens often, then the whole situation
needs better planning and perhaps rethought. (But that's really to
vague to be helpful which is why real examples are better. It's often
*why* something is happening that's important, not what.)
Celebrating along with them when they've accomplished something they
were trying to achieve for their own sakes is great :-) Rewarding
them and praising them for doing what you want feels like training a
dog. Rewards should come from a sense of accomplishment, not from
some external source.
It's about trusting that they want to be good people and in the mean
time helping them get what they want in ways that are physically and
socially safe to them and others.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> how do you draw the line between practicing thisYou *help* them do what they want.
> "parenting with" style (as Kohn calls it) and being a permissive
> parent,
> letting them do whatever they want?
Sometimes you may need to think beyond the immediate request to
figure out what they're really asking for so that you can find a safe
substitute or a better time.
Specific examples of when you feel you need to punish will help
people make it clearer. But, for example, a child running in a
crowded store doesn't need to run right there, but he is telling you
he's full of energy and needs a break to get that energy expended in
a better location. If it happens often, then the whole situation
needs better planning and perhaps rethought. (But that's really to
vague to be helpful which is why real examples are better. It's often
*why* something is happening that's important, not what.)
Celebrating along with them when they've accomplished something they
were trying to achieve for their own sakes is great :-) Rewarding
them and praising them for doing what you want feels like training a
dog. Rewards should come from a sense of accomplishment, not from
some external source.
It's about trusting that they want to be good people and in the mean
time helping them get what they want in ways that are physically and
socially safe to them and others.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff" <kmoose75@...> wrote:
have a talk with them and explain what you didn't like and why, and in the process maybe
find out why they thought it was a good idea, and how could they express that idea in a
way that would work?
When you move out of the "behavioral" mindset, the need to punish evaporates. Trust is
the key ingredient--you trust that your child wants to have positive interactions in the
world--just like you do. You trust that they are capable of creating those interactions.
Sometimes they will need help from parents, who are in a great position to be a trusted
ally if a child believes you are really on their side.
Punishment doesn't teach--contrary to popular parenting advice. Think about times that
you were punished as a child. Did you want connection, communication and
understanding, or did you want isolation? Which situation is more conducive to learning,
assuming that learning is the real objective?
We NEVER punish/reward/praise. But what we do is celebrate, talk, hug & cuddle. Some
of us take our own "time outs" (completely self-determined when one of us needs to
regroup). It can sound like things are always smooth and "perfect," but they arent. The
kids still argue sometimes, and have misunderstandings--although less as they get older.
My dd (9) is quicker to fly off the handle than the rest of us--more passionate and volatile
all around--and is learning all the time how to deal with herself. She's the one who will
take herself out of the picture now. She likes to be alone when she's really upset, and then
she'll usually come back refreshed and ready to interact again.
But things aren't "controlled" by me--although I mediate when someone asks me to or if
things are emotionally spiraling beyond what the kids can handle. The focus is always on
learning--not on punishing anyone--profound learning can't happen when there's
punishment.
And as for the "letting them do whatever they want" piece, that's the biggest
misconception in unschooling. Unschooling is about deeply partnering with your child. If
an activity they are engaged in is infringing on someone else's rights or property, it's your
job as partner to help them get out of that situation, and into one that does work--with
kindness, understanding, support and true desire to help them get what they really want.
That can help cause expansion and understanding--whereas punishment causes
contraction.
Joanna
>Would you "punish" your friend for doing something that you didn't like, or would you
> My question is this: For those of you (most of you, I assume) who do not
> punish/reward/praise, how do you draw the line between practicing this
> "parenting with" style (as Kohn calls it) and being a permissive parent,
> letting them do whatever they want? Any suggestions/advice on how to
> implement this in real life?
>
> Do you really NEVER have to punish/reward/praise? Or is it more about a
> change in how you look at each situation?
>
have a talk with them and explain what you didn't like and why, and in the process maybe
find out why they thought it was a good idea, and how could they express that idea in a
way that would work?
When you move out of the "behavioral" mindset, the need to punish evaporates. Trust is
the key ingredient--you trust that your child wants to have positive interactions in the
world--just like you do. You trust that they are capable of creating those interactions.
Sometimes they will need help from parents, who are in a great position to be a trusted
ally if a child believes you are really on their side.
Punishment doesn't teach--contrary to popular parenting advice. Think about times that
you were punished as a child. Did you want connection, communication and
understanding, or did you want isolation? Which situation is more conducive to learning,
assuming that learning is the real objective?
We NEVER punish/reward/praise. But what we do is celebrate, talk, hug & cuddle. Some
of us take our own "time outs" (completely self-determined when one of us needs to
regroup). It can sound like things are always smooth and "perfect," but they arent. The
kids still argue sometimes, and have misunderstandings--although less as they get older.
My dd (9) is quicker to fly off the handle than the rest of us--more passionate and volatile
all around--and is learning all the time how to deal with herself. She's the one who will
take herself out of the picture now. She likes to be alone when she's really upset, and then
she'll usually come back refreshed and ready to interact again.
But things aren't "controlled" by me--although I mediate when someone asks me to or if
things are emotionally spiraling beyond what the kids can handle. The focus is always on
learning--not on punishing anyone--profound learning can't happen when there's
punishment.
And as for the "letting them do whatever they want" piece, that's the biggest
misconception in unschooling. Unschooling is about deeply partnering with your child. If
an activity they are engaged in is infringing on someone else's rights or property, it's your
job as partner to help them get out of that situation, and into one that does work--with
kindness, understanding, support and true desire to help them get what they really want.
That can help cause expansion and understanding--whereas punishment causes
contraction.
Joanna
Kim Musolff
*** Specific examples of when you feel you need to punish will help
people make it clearer. ***
Okay, here is an example from this morning. N (6) and Z (4) were fighting
this morning. It ended up in a screaming match and N punched Z. When she
tried to rebuttle (verbally), he plugged his ears and sang, "La, la, la..."
Normally I'd separate them into different rooms (we don't really call it a
"Time Out" around here). Then I'd talk with each of them to figure out how
to handle it better next time. According to the "parenting with" theory,
separating them is considered "punishment." So today, I came into the room,
asking, "What happened?" N stormed off into his room (which I allowed him
to), in order to cool off. This wasn't mandated by me, he just did it on
his own. Z and I talked about what happened. N got mad that we were
talking without him and came back into the room and attempted to talk with
us. But really, he ended up yelling at both of us and when I asked him
things like, "How do you think Z felt when you plugged your ears and ignored
her?" he just rolled his eyes, gave a half smirk, and said (very
sarcastically) "I don't know." Since he wasn't willing to talk, I told him
we'd talk later when everyone had calmed down. He got even madder at that,
and stormed off.
So I didn't punish. But I don't really feel good about how that situation
ended either. Do I just let it go? Are situations like this over when
everyone is calmed down and back into their thing? In the meantime, do we
talk about respect/ignoring each other/etc. at a later time, without
pointing out any one specific instance. But how do you do that? What would
you say without sounding like you're "giving a lesson?" Even in my personal
life, I'm not good at starting conversations like this. How on earth am I
going to do it with my children????
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
people make it clearer. ***
Okay, here is an example from this morning. N (6) and Z (4) were fighting
this morning. It ended up in a screaming match and N punched Z. When she
tried to rebuttle (verbally), he plugged his ears and sang, "La, la, la..."
Normally I'd separate them into different rooms (we don't really call it a
"Time Out" around here). Then I'd talk with each of them to figure out how
to handle it better next time. According to the "parenting with" theory,
separating them is considered "punishment." So today, I came into the room,
asking, "What happened?" N stormed off into his room (which I allowed him
to), in order to cool off. This wasn't mandated by me, he just did it on
his own. Z and I talked about what happened. N got mad that we were
talking without him and came back into the room and attempted to talk with
us. But really, he ended up yelling at both of us and when I asked him
things like, "How do you think Z felt when you plugged your ears and ignored
her?" he just rolled his eyes, gave a half smirk, and said (very
sarcastically) "I don't know." Since he wasn't willing to talk, I told him
we'd talk later when everyone had calmed down. He got even madder at that,
and stormed off.
So I didn't punish. But I don't really feel good about how that situation
ended either. Do I just let it go? Are situations like this over when
everyone is calmed down and back into their thing? In the meantime, do we
talk about respect/ignoring each other/etc. at a later time, without
pointing out any one specific instance. But how do you do that? What would
you say without sounding like you're "giving a lesson?" Even in my personal
life, I'm not good at starting conversations like this. How on earth am I
going to do it with my children????
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 9, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:
disharmony and the bad feelings that come with conflict are already
there - you don't have to impose punishment to make them feel worse,
as if making them feel worse will provide motivation to do better next
time. It won't. They'll do the best they can.
possible to get a specific point across. For example, with young kids,
it can help them to be very comfortable with a vocabulary to describe
their feelings. So, rather than see the conflict as something you need
to totally work through, just see it as a chance to use some
descriptive words, with the idea being that over time they'll use the
words instead of getting physical with each other.
So - you purposely use words like mad, angry, frustrated, tired of it,
shocked, scared, jealous, left out, lonely, and so on.
experience. Let them have the chance for the experience without
talking too much about it - assume they'll learn from the experience.
develop empathy - say, "I wonder how I would feel if that happened to
me. How about you?"
You dont' have to have big conversations, just help them as soon as
possible. If there is a LOT of conflict, then be more present and
intervene (happily with distraction or new fun ideas) sooner.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I think that's great. They're already feeling awful - THEY don't want
> So I didn't punish.
disharmony and the bad feelings that come with conflict are already
there - you don't have to impose punishment to make them feel worse,
as if making them feel worse will provide motivation to do better next
time. It won't. They'll do the best they can.
> But I don't really feel good about how that situationThey're very young - maybe focus a little on using as few words as
> ended either.
possible to get a specific point across. For example, with young kids,
it can help them to be very comfortable with a vocabulary to describe
their feelings. So, rather than see the conflict as something you need
to totally work through, just see it as a chance to use some
descriptive words, with the idea being that over time they'll use the
words instead of getting physical with each other.
So - you purposely use words like mad, angry, frustrated, tired of it,
shocked, scared, jealous, left out, lonely, and so on.
> Do I just let it go? Are situations like this over whenYes - mostly, yes.
> everyone is calmed down and back into their thing?
> In the meantime, do weMaybe just a little, but not much. They ARE learning - through
> talk about respect/ignoring each other/etc. at a later time, without
> pointing out any one specific instance.
experience. Let them have the chance for the experience without
talking too much about it - assume they'll learn from the experience.
> But how do you do that?Maybe notice things you see on tv or in movies about kids. Help them
develop empathy - say, "I wonder how I would feel if that happened to
me. How about you?"
> What wouldMostly just distract and make things better - they'll learn over time.
> you say without sounding like you're "giving a lesson?" Even in my
> personal
> life, I'm not good at starting conversations like this. How on earth
> am I
> going to do it with my children????
You dont' have to have big conversations, just help them as soon as
possible. If there is a LOT of conflict, then be more present and
intervene (happily with distraction or new fun ideas) sooner.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff" <kmoose75@...> wrote:
usually feeling a loss of power. She is aware that her brother is stronger and intellectually
quicker, so she will do annoying things like that to try to even the score. When she
discovered how much he detested being licked--well, that was fun! He naturally uses
his age-based "superiority." He does it without thinking, and then seems genuinely
confused when she does something like that. I'm just wondering if that could be going on
between your kids.
take skillful juggling, and I don't think you're alone in feeling frustrated about that. If only
we could temporarily clone! I do find it to be more effective to talk with them separately
at first. I find they need to "tell their story," which is often completely "unfair" and without
any acceptance of personal responsibility at first. So naturally the other will argue to
correct it, etc., but that isn't helpful for helping one at a time process their anger enough
to start hearing the other side.
Z and I talked about what happened. N got mad that we were
power.
Since he wasn't willing to talk, I told him
he may have wanted to re-establish connection and couldn't do it in the context of the
confict. Perhaps an invitation to get you when he was ready to talk, or to check in with
him and see if he just wanted a cuddle, etc. Sometimes just holding my daughter, when
she's ready, helps her to shift herself back into a more connected place. Your son had lost
connection with himself, and with the rest of the family. The more you can keep the door
open to him to come back into connection, the quicker he will make the transition.
Punishing, at this point, just drives a bigger wedge into the place of connection, gets the
ego involved, and makes everything harder than it needs to be.
He needs to know that hitting is not o.k., but it needs to come in the context of love and
connection with you--not judgement and isolation--then he'll only learn the lesson of
judgement and isolation.
preferably with some physical contact. That may come 2 minutes after the conflict, or it
may be an hour--whenever it is right. Even if it's days later, he'll remember what
happened. In the meanwhile, you can be connecting with your daughter and getting more
understanding about what happened, so that you can help her with her part. I find sibling
stuff to rarely be about 1 victim and 1 perpetrator. There's usually a dynamic that
escalates--so can you catch it before it gets to the hitting stage in the future?
If you can get out of the mindset that you have to "teach a lesson" you'll be better off.
Think more in terms of helping your child process what happened so that they can gain
understanding and insight into why hit. You can then brainstorm some other solutions
with your child so that that awareness might carry forward into the next situation. Your
child may even teach you a lesson--a lesson in sibling dynamics. I didn't understand the
power dynamics of what was going on (duh!) until my dd said it. I don't even remember
how it came up, but it was through me really trying to understand why it kept happening
and asking her lots of short questions.
what happened between you and your sister yesterday?" "Were you angry?" "Were you
feeling like she wasn't listening to you?" "Do you feel sometimes like she has more power
than you?" "Do you hit her to get her to listen?" See what he has to say, and I'll bet you'll
get enough info to know where to go from there.
Joanna
>This sounds familiar! When this dynamic happens between my kids, the younger one is
> *** Specific examples of when you feel you need to punish will help
> people make it clearer. ***
>
>
> Okay, here is an example from this morning. N (6) and Z (4) were fighting
> this morning. It ended up in a screaming match and N punched Z. When she
> tried to rebuttle (verbally), he plugged his ears and sang, "La, la, la..."
usually feeling a loss of power. She is aware that her brother is stronger and intellectually
quicker, so she will do annoying things like that to try to even the score. When she
discovered how much he detested being licked--well, that was fun! He naturally uses
his age-based "superiority." He does it without thinking, and then seems genuinely
confused when she does something like that. I'm just wondering if that could be going on
between your kids.
>It can be challenging when both kids need your attention at the same time--that does
> Normally I'd separate them into different rooms (we don't really call it a
> "Time Out" around here). Then I'd talk with each of them to figure out how
> to handle it better next time. According to the "parenting with" theory,
> separating them is considered "punishment."
take skillful juggling, and I don't think you're alone in feeling frustrated about that. If only
we could temporarily clone! I do find it to be more effective to talk with them separately
at first. I find they need to "tell their story," which is often completely "unfair" and without
any acceptance of personal responsibility at first. So naturally the other will argue to
correct it, etc., but that isn't helpful for helping one at a time process their anger enough
to start hearing the other side.
>So today, I came into the room, asking, "What happened?" N stormed off into his roomMy daughter appreciates a little time alone after a conflict.
>(which I allowed him to), in order to cool off. This wasn't mandated by me, he just did it
>on his own."
Z and I talked about what happened. N got mad that we were
> talking without him and came back into the room and attempted to talk withIt sounds like he was still in the midst of the conflict, and was maybe still feeling a lack of
> us. But really, he ended up yelling at both of us and when I asked him
> things like, "How do you think Z felt when you plugged your ears and ignored
> her?" he just rolled his eyes, gave a half smirk, and said (very
> sarcastically) "I don't know."
power.
Since he wasn't willing to talk, I told him
> we'd talk later when everyone had calmed down. He got even madder at that,That seems o.k. to me--he may still have needed cool-down time, but it also seems like
> and stormed off.
he may have wanted to re-establish connection and couldn't do it in the context of the
confict. Perhaps an invitation to get you when he was ready to talk, or to check in with
him and see if he just wanted a cuddle, etc. Sometimes just holding my daughter, when
she's ready, helps her to shift herself back into a more connected place. Your son had lost
connection with himself, and with the rest of the family. The more you can keep the door
open to him to come back into connection, the quicker he will make the transition.
Punishing, at this point, just drives a bigger wedge into the place of connection, gets the
ego involved, and makes everything harder than it needs to be.
He needs to know that hitting is not o.k., but it needs to come in the context of love and
connection with you--not judgement and isolation--then he'll only learn the lesson of
judgement and isolation.
>When he's calmed down and in a more receptive mood you can talk with him about that--
> So I didn't punish. But I don't really feel good about how that situation
> ended either. Do I just let it go? Are situations like this over when
> everyone is calmed down and back into their thing?
preferably with some physical contact. That may come 2 minutes after the conflict, or it
may be an hour--whenever it is right. Even if it's days later, he'll remember what
happened. In the meanwhile, you can be connecting with your daughter and getting more
understanding about what happened, so that you can help her with her part. I find sibling
stuff to rarely be about 1 victim and 1 perpetrator. There's usually a dynamic that
escalates--so can you catch it before it gets to the hitting stage in the future?
>In the meantime, do we talk about respect/ignoring each other/etc. at a later time,I am very specific, so that thoughts can be tied directly to actions. And the less judgemental you can be the more potential there is for you to be present with your child.
>without pointing out any one specific instance.
If you can get out of the mindset that you have to "teach a lesson" you'll be better off.
Think more in terms of helping your child process what happened so that they can gain
understanding and insight into why hit. You can then brainstorm some other solutions
with your child so that that awareness might carry forward into the next situation. Your
child may even teach you a lesson--a lesson in sibling dynamics. I didn't understand the
power dynamics of what was going on (duh!) until my dd said it. I don't even remember
how it came up, but it was through me really trying to understand why it kept happening
and asking her lots of short questions.
>But how do you do that? What would you say without sounding like you're "giving aYou can start by asking questions. Here are some samples: "What do you think about
>lesson?"
what happened between you and your sister yesterday?" "Were you angry?" "Were you
feeling like she wasn't listening to you?" "Do you feel sometimes like she has more power
than you?" "Do you hit her to get her to listen?" See what he has to say, and I'll bet you'll
get enough info to know where to go from there.
>Even in my personal life, I'm not good at starting conversations like this. How on earthPRACTICE! lol
>am I going to do it with my children????
>
> Kim
Joanna
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
talking. The talking should be suited to the child. If he's not very verbal, then less talking,
fewer questions, etc. It may be that physical contact is the most important thing, if he likes
that.
I have one that is very verbal and one that isn't. The one that isn't has always appreciated me
asking a few questions that she can say yes or no to rather than having to expand on her
emotions herself.
I'll ask her, "Do you want help with an idea for next time?" If she's interested, I will make a
straightforward suggestion or two about how to handle it in the future: i.e. When you get
frustrated you could ask me for help.
Joanna
>After reading Pam's response, I thought my post may have had too much emphasis on
talking. The talking should be suited to the child. If he's not very verbal, then less talking,
fewer questions, etc. It may be that physical contact is the most important thing, if he likes
that.
I have one that is very verbal and one that isn't. The one that isn't has always appreciated me
asking a few questions that she can say yes or no to rather than having to expand on her
emotions herself.
I'll ask her, "Do you want help with an idea for next time?" If she's interested, I will make a
straightforward suggestion or two about how to handle it in the future: i.e. When you get
frustrated you could ask me for help.
Joanna
Kim Musolff
***with the idea being that over time they'll use the
words instead of getting physical with each other***
This idea is so freeing! If its something that's supposed to take time to
learn, then I don't feel the need to get immediate results! Wow! It's
amazing what you can do when you change your perspective a little!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
words instead of getting physical with each other***
This idea is so freeing! If its something that's supposed to take time to
learn, then I don't feel the need to get immediate results! Wow! It's
amazing what you can do when you change your perspective a little!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
*** He naturally uses
his age-based "superiority." He does it without thinking, and then seems
genuinely
confused when she does something like that. I'm just wondering if that could
be going on
between your kids.
Now that I think about it, he seems to get annoyed when she does anything
better than him, because he is the older one. I think this whole thing
started because they had a race and SHE won!
***so can you catch it before it gets to the hitting stage in the future?***
Yes! I've been trying this lately, and it seems to be helping (except for
days like today). I've been trying to help them verbalize their feelings
when I can see the frustration level rising. N has this thing about pushing
Z to her limits. She could be screaming for him to "STOP!" overpowering
her, and he acts like he hardly notices. So with him, I've been trying to
point out that the tone of her voice has changed and she sounds like she
doesn't like the game they're playing anymore. And with her, I've been
trying to help her find words other than just "Stop." (like "Stop sitting
on me," or "Stop taking my book," etc.)
Thanks!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
his age-based "superiority." He does it without thinking, and then seems
genuinely
confused when she does something like that. I'm just wondering if that could
be going on
between your kids.
Now that I think about it, he seems to get annoyed when she does anything
better than him, because he is the older one. I think this whole thing
started because they had a race and SHE won!
***so can you catch it before it gets to the hitting stage in the future?***
Yes! I've been trying this lately, and it seems to be helping (except for
days like today). I've been trying to help them verbalize their feelings
when I can see the frustration level rising. N has this thing about pushing
Z to her limits. She could be screaming for him to "STOP!" overpowering
her, and he acts like he hardly notices. So with him, I've been trying to
point out that the tone of her voice has changed and she sounds like she
doesn't like the game they're playing anymore. And with her, I've been
trying to help her find words other than just "Stop." (like "Stop sitting
on me," or "Stop taking my book," etc.)
Thanks!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily Troper
>Do you really NEVER have to punish/reward/praise? Or is it moreabout a
>change in how you look at each situation?Hi Kim,
I am behind on emails, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything others
have said, but I felt compelled to answer your post. I liked the
Alfie Kohn Unconditional Parenting DVD, really a terrific "gateway"
for those who are currently parenting on the authoritarian end of the
spectrum (or for those who swing between permissive and
authoritarian), but I feel Alfie is lacking in the practical "what do
you do when.." stuff.
People are often amazed when they learn that I have NEVER punished
any of my four children (including my 16 year old son, who was often
described as "challenging" and "spirited" when he was younger). I
have relied on connection instead. It's interesting that you ask do
we never "have to" punish/reward/praise - because people tend to
assume that parents "have to" make children do certain things. I am
not "permissive", in that I am authentic and direct with my kids and
I have personal limits - which are few (and negotiable), and I
certainly don't expect my kids to remember my limits and follow them,
because I know that humans often have unmet needs or just impulses
that over-rule "doing the right thing" even when it is what they want
to do (and I always assume positive intent) and I "set" my limits in
a respectful way that honors all of our feelings and deepens our
connection. To me, "misbehavior" is all about unmet needs, so if a
child gets punished for having a need (that they are expressing in a
"mistaken" way), the message of love and understanding doesn�t get
through, and the underlying needs are never addressed. Manipulation
with threats of punishment (or promises of a reward) breaks the
parent-child connection, and continues the cycle of pain - unmet
needs � misbehavior � threats, etc. Identifying and acknowledging
feelings and offering understanding really goes a long way when
things are hard - children have desires that sometimes just cannot be
met (there are so many natural limits that occur in the world, i.e.
it's raining out and they were hoping for sun) but a parent can be
understanding and loving even when the child doesn't get exactly what
they want. Other things that help are having outlets for expressing
anger, play-listening and playful parenting, quiet/silent empathy,
unconditional forgiveness, reconnection through special time - and
preventing the need for limits - assess for hunger, sleep
deprivation, need for connection, attention, down time/alone time, etc.
So, the answer is YES, it can be done, and it's a beautiful thing.
Smiles,
Emily
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 9, 2008, at 5:09 PM, Kim Musolff wrote:
But have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? It's a very easy read
(similar in format to their "How To Talks So Kids Will Listen and
Listen So Kids Will Talk")
Sandra Dodd also has several really good pages on sibling relationships:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So I didn't punish. But I don't really feel good about how thatI only have one so didn't get much practice in sibling fights ;-)
> situation
> ended either. Do I just let it go?
But have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? It's a very easy read
(similar in format to their "How To Talks So Kids Will Listen and
Listen So Kids Will Talk")
Sandra Dodd also has several really good pages on sibling relationships:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Normally I'd separate them into different rooms (we don't really
call it a
"Time Out" around here). Then I'd talk with each of them to figure
out how
to handle it better next time. According to the "parenting with" theory,
separating them is considered "punishment."-=-
If there's a filter between you and your children, you're treating
them like someone else's children, or theoretical children, aren't you?
I've only glanced through Alfie Kohn stuff. He never nursed a baby.
He's not an unschooler. He's writing for mass markets, statistical
"out there" people he doesn't know.
Joyce gave you some links I would've given. This is on a different
one and I think it's important:
********
I have said to all my kids, but mostly Kirby on that case by case
basis, that I'm sorry if I have ever hurt them with words and made a
bad memory they will have always, and I'm sorry for some things I
said to my sister when we were little, that I could never ever take
back. I would say that thinking something mean without saying it is
better than saying it, if he could help it.
One of my main principles has been that it's my job to protect the
peace of each of my children in his or her own home insofar as I can,
and I'm not just here to protect them from outsiders, axe-murderers
and boogie-men of whatever real or imagined sort, but from each other
as well.
It makes me crazy when I hear a mom say "They need to learn to work
these things out for themselves." It's such cop-out, and such
disregard for both the underdog kid AND the bullying kid, who is
learning clearly that he can get away with what he can get away with,
and his mother isn't going to interfere because she doesn't know or
care how to make peace.
But then what about families where the mom really doesn't know how to
make peace? Maybe then it's good to have rules and time-outs so the
peace kind of keeps itself a little more. But I think if she can gain
more peacemaking tools, it's better for everyone.
********
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fightingcomments.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
call it a
"Time Out" around here). Then I'd talk with each of them to figure
out how
to handle it better next time. According to the "parenting with" theory,
separating them is considered "punishment."-=-
If there's a filter between you and your children, you're treating
them like someone else's children, or theoretical children, aren't you?
I've only glanced through Alfie Kohn stuff. He never nursed a baby.
He's not an unschooler. He's writing for mass markets, statistical
"out there" people he doesn't know.
Joyce gave you some links I would've given. This is on a different
one and I think it's important:
********
I have said to all my kids, but mostly Kirby on that case by case
basis, that I'm sorry if I have ever hurt them with words and made a
bad memory they will have always, and I'm sorry for some things I
said to my sister when we were little, that I could never ever take
back. I would say that thinking something mean without saying it is
better than saying it, if he could help it.
One of my main principles has been that it's my job to protect the
peace of each of my children in his or her own home insofar as I can,
and I'm not just here to protect them from outsiders, axe-murderers
and boogie-men of whatever real or imagined sort, but from each other
as well.
It makes me crazy when I hear a mom say "They need to learn to work
these things out for themselves." It's such cop-out, and such
disregard for both the underdog kid AND the bullying kid, who is
learning clearly that he can get away with what he can get away with,
and his mother isn't going to interfere because she doesn't know or
care how to make peace.
But then what about families where the mom really doesn't know how to
make peace? Maybe then it's good to have rules and time-outs so the
peace kind of keeps itself a little more. But I think if she can gain
more peacemaking tools, it's better for everyone.
********
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fightingcomments.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily Troper
--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff" <kmoose75@...>
wrote:
punching happens) and sometimes set a wordless physical limit (i.e.
catching the hand in the air before it strikes, getting between them,
etc.), or help with problem solving - but if I don't get there in
time, I first apologize to the child who was the hitter - I might say
"I'm sorry I didn't get here in time" because I know he didn't WANT
to hit - if a child is hitting, there was a BIG unmet need/
frustration going on and he needed my help to control his impulses,
and I wasn't there to give it. In our house the kids yell out
"problem!" if they need help with a conflict, and I drop everything
and go help out. Sometimes they are so upset that they forget to
yell "problem!" but it's been good for us to have a code word, and
for them to trust that we will come right away and help when they
need it. A 6 year old's brain isn't really controlling his impulses
(they have impulse control about 20% of the time at age 8) so I think
that saying "how do you think that made X feel when you did that"
feels shaming to the child, who has feelings of his own (that
compelled him to hit) that are not being addressed. When I am able
to give empathy to the one who "lost it" first, they are more able to
listen to others' feelings after. So I might say "wow, looks like
you were SO frustrated with X that you hit her" in as non-judgmental
tone as possible, and then he says "yeah, she took my..." or "she
kicked me" or "I'm SO MAD!" and so I hear all of his feelings and
THEN say "please call me next time" or "it's not OK with me for you
to hit your sister - how can I help you next time?". The "victim"
gets your hugs and hears you telling her brother it's not OK to hit
her, and often that's all she needs, though she may want to tell you
her side of the story as well.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
>fighting
> Okay, here is an example from this morning. N (6) and Z (4) were
> this morning. It ended up in a screaming match and N punched Z.When she
> tried to rebuttle (verbally), he plugged his ears and sang, "La,la, la..."
>I try to get to them when it's still just fighting (before the
punching happens) and sometimes set a wordless physical limit (i.e.
catching the hand in the air before it strikes, getting between them,
etc.), or help with problem solving - but if I don't get there in
time, I first apologize to the child who was the hitter - I might say
"I'm sorry I didn't get here in time" because I know he didn't WANT
to hit - if a child is hitting, there was a BIG unmet need/
frustration going on and he needed my help to control his impulses,
and I wasn't there to give it. In our house the kids yell out
"problem!" if they need help with a conflict, and I drop everything
and go help out. Sometimes they are so upset that they forget to
yell "problem!" but it's been good for us to have a code word, and
for them to trust that we will come right away and help when they
need it. A 6 year old's brain isn't really controlling his impulses
(they have impulse control about 20% of the time at age 8) so I think
that saying "how do you think that made X feel when you did that"
feels shaming to the child, who has feelings of his own (that
compelled him to hit) that are not being addressed. When I am able
to give empathy to the one who "lost it" first, they are more able to
listen to others' feelings after. So I might say "wow, looks like
you were SO frustrated with X that you hit her" in as non-judgmental
tone as possible, and then he says "yeah, she took my..." or "she
kicked me" or "I'm SO MAD!" and so I hear all of his feelings and
THEN say "please call me next time" or "it's not OK with me for you
to hit your sister - how can I help you next time?". The "victim"
gets your hugs and hears you telling her brother it's not OK to hit
her, and often that's all she needs, though she may want to tell you
her side of the story as well.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When I am able
to give empathy to the one who "lost it" first, they are more able to
listen to others' feelings after. So I might say "wow, looks like
you were SO frustrated with X that you hit her"-=-
Maybe it depends how old the child is, and undoubtedly I'm picturing
a different scenario than you are, but in way of analogy, would you
consider doing this in the parking lot at the bowling alley, with
strangers?
"Wow, it looks like you were so frustrated with that cowboy that you
hit him."
Under any circumstances of physical violence, "Wow" seems too
dismissive to me.
If Keith were to ever hit me, I might set claws into any bystander
who said "Wow..." ANYthing.
And if I had just hit someone, I wouldn't be happy at all if someone
else said "Wow, it looks like you were so mad you hit him."
DUH!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to give empathy to the one who "lost it" first, they are more able to
listen to others' feelings after. So I might say "wow, looks like
you were SO frustrated with X that you hit her"-=-
Maybe it depends how old the child is, and undoubtedly I'm picturing
a different scenario than you are, but in way of analogy, would you
consider doing this in the parking lot at the bowling alley, with
strangers?
"Wow, it looks like you were so frustrated with that cowboy that you
hit him."
Under any circumstances of physical violence, "Wow" seems too
dismissive to me.
If Keith were to ever hit me, I might set claws into any bystander
who said "Wow..." ANYthing.
And if I had just hit someone, I wouldn't be happy at all if someone
else said "Wow, it looks like you were so mad you hit him."
DUH!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
***"Wow, it looks like you were so frustrated with that cowboy that you
hit him."
Under any circumstances of physical violence, "Wow" seems too
dismissive to me.
If Keith were to ever hit me, I might set claws into any bystander
who said "Wow..." ANYthing.
And if I had just hit someone, I wouldn't be happy at all if someone
else said "Wow, it looks like you were so mad you hit him."***
This makes a lot of sense. I've always been one to verbalize feelings for
my young children, especially if they are angry. Are you saying that we
shouldn't do this, or just that we shouldn't do this in such a contrived
way?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hit him."
Under any circumstances of physical violence, "Wow" seems too
dismissive to me.
If Keith were to ever hit me, I might set claws into any bystander
who said "Wow..." ANYthing.
And if I had just hit someone, I wouldn't be happy at all if someone
else said "Wow, it looks like you were so mad you hit him."***
This makes a lot of sense. I've always been one to verbalize feelings for
my young children, especially if they are angry. Are you saying that we
shouldn't do this, or just that we shouldn't do this in such a contrived
way?
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This makes a lot of sense. I've always been one to verbalize
feelings for
my young children, especially if they are angry. Are you saying that we
shouldn't do this, or just that we shouldn't do this in such a contrived
way?-=-
The latter. Anything done in a contrived way with a child is putting
something between you and the child.
Anything condescending make the child smaller than he might need to be.
I don't mean don't use babytalk with an infant, but some parents
don't know when to quit, and are still babytalking a four year old.
When I can't decide how to act, I use the "treat them like a guest"
measure.
All other things being equal, speaking to the aggressor first might
make some kind of sense, but all things are NOT equal when one person
has been attacked. You might find out the kid who was attacked
physically had been attacking in other non-physical ways, and you
might want to advise him not to do that, but to talk to both kids
together instead of separately reminds me too much of kids being sent
to the principal's office. Yuck. Like a little court, with a
judge. Or worse, like a forced apology. That's a way to encourage
living on the glossy surface and to teach dishonesty, in my opinion.
When two kids are involved they probably both need a chance to
express themselves, to be comforted and to be coached about possible
similar future incidents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feelings for
my young children, especially if they are angry. Are you saying that we
shouldn't do this, or just that we shouldn't do this in such a contrived
way?-=-
The latter. Anything done in a contrived way with a child is putting
something between you and the child.
Anything condescending make the child smaller than he might need to be.
I don't mean don't use babytalk with an infant, but some parents
don't know when to quit, and are still babytalking a four year old.
When I can't decide how to act, I use the "treat them like a guest"
measure.
All other things being equal, speaking to the aggressor first might
make some kind of sense, but all things are NOT equal when one person
has been attacked. You might find out the kid who was attacked
physically had been attacking in other non-physical ways, and you
might want to advise him not to do that, but to talk to both kids
together instead of separately reminds me too much of kids being sent
to the principal's office. Yuck. Like a little court, with a
judge. Or worse, like a forced apology. That's a way to encourage
living on the glossy surface and to teach dishonesty, in my opinion.
When two kids are involved they probably both need a chance to
express themselves, to be comforted and to be coached about possible
similar future incidents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily Troper
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
to you. :)
Yes, I can see how it might seem condescending, but really my tone is
warm and sympathetic and curious, and saying "wow" is kind of just
how I talk. I KNOW that my kids would immediately call me on it if I
WERE being condescending or sounding scripted in any way. I have
come across parents being really mean to their kids at the park, and
I just kind of reflect back to them "wow, looks like you're having a
hard day" in a mellow non-judgmental way BEFORE I try to advocate for
better treatment of the children, just so they know that I am on
their side, I'm there to help, not criticize.
And I was replying to the OP who was asking about 6 and 4 year olds,
who have such BIG feelings, and I tend to meet them where they are, I
might actually yell "you're SO MAD!!" to acknowledge the power with
which they feel mad, but once my kids get older, they seem to have
the same reaction you did (i.e DUH!) - when my son was 11 he said to
me "yeah, thanks mom, but I don't need you to tell me how I feel
right now", and he was right, but of course by then he had his own
language of feelings and needs and fully trusted that I understood
him and wasn't judging his behavior, just trying to help.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Wow, Sandra, it seems like this part of my post really felt annoying
> Maybe it depends how old the child is, and undoubtedly I'm picturing
> a different scenario than you are, but in way of analogy, would you
> consider doing this in the parking lot at the bowling alley, with
> strangers?
>
> "Wow, it looks like you were so frustrated with that cowboy that you
> hit him."
>
> Under any circumstances of physical violence, "Wow" seems too
> dismissive to me.
>
> If Keith were to ever hit me, I might set claws into any bystander
> who said "Wow..." ANYthing.
>
> And if I had just hit someone, I wouldn't be happy at all if someone
> else said "Wow, it looks like you were so mad you hit him."
>
> DUH!
>
to you. :)
Yes, I can see how it might seem condescending, but really my tone is
warm and sympathetic and curious, and saying "wow" is kind of just
how I talk. I KNOW that my kids would immediately call me on it if I
WERE being condescending or sounding scripted in any way. I have
come across parents being really mean to their kids at the park, and
I just kind of reflect back to them "wow, looks like you're having a
hard day" in a mellow non-judgmental way BEFORE I try to advocate for
better treatment of the children, just so they know that I am on
their side, I'm there to help, not criticize.
And I was replying to the OP who was asking about 6 and 4 year olds,
who have such BIG feelings, and I tend to meet them where they are, I
might actually yell "you're SO MAD!!" to acknowledge the power with
which they feel mad, but once my kids get older, they seem to have
the same reaction you did (i.e DUH!) - when my son was 11 he said to
me "yeah, thanks mom, but I don't need you to tell me how I feel
right now", and he was right, but of course by then he had his own
language of feelings and needs and fully trusted that I understood
him and wasn't judging his behavior, just trying to help.
Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
I'm way back in the posts, and apologize if I'm writing things that no
longer pertain...
whatever they want would mean that they would want to do things we wouldn't
want them to. Also, that being a permissive parent is something we wouldn't
want to be.
I think I would be categorized as a permissive parent. Which is good :o)
If we are talking about young children who may choose things that don't fit
in the situation they are in, like screaming in a restaurant, or running
through people in a store, the idea is not to say "No", but instead to
re-direct...take them outside where they can scream or run...not with
reprimand or a feeling of being punished, but going out with them with
pleasantness and joy. It's a matter of being "with" them in what they are
doing, and, being the more experienced person, finding a way to let them do
it in the moment.
made to go to their rooms, timed out, etc. When things have come up in the
past...arguments, disrespectful behavior, etc...we discussed, just I like I
would do with my husband, though the language may be different. If there was
heat in the moment, I worked to stay calm and loving, seeking to understand
all sides of whatever the situation was. Sometimes kids would have to
separate so no one would be hurt. It wasn't long before kids understood that
they would be heard, and they usually allowed my attention to go to another
child. Sometimes saying that everyone will get a turn to talk helped if
things started to escalate. In fact, when kids learn that their parent(s)
will seek to understand them, and will genuinely listen to them, situations
diffuse more quickly, until they come to a place of more easily working
things out themselves.
A couple of my kids sometimes swear a lot in their conversations with each
other or with friends at home. Usually it doesn't bother me at all. But
sometimes it does. I'll say something like, "I'm feeling a little sensitive
about the swearing right now" and they gladly stop. Nothing unharmonious and
no hard feelings on any side. Last night my son Max asked me to turn down
the volume on the TV. And I did, happily. We listen to and respect each
other.
Of praise: my son and his band recently won a huge jazz competition in
California. He didn't get to the level of musicianship that he has through
any praise by us. He didn't look to see what made other people happy in this
endeavor. This is a passion. It has been self-driven, and fortunately, we
knew enough to stay out of the way and support the passion, (mostly in
supplying equipment and rides to lessons and just appreciating his work). I
sometimes wonder if he would have gone as far as he has if we were
rah-rah-reeing on the sidelines.
This idea applies to playdough-making, getting dressed and
teeth-brushing...how would you feel if someone you lived with interrupted
every little thing you did with "Good job!". It's pretty condescending
actually.
we are their foundations.
Jacki
longer pertain...
>>For those of you (most of you, I assume) who do notI think there is an underlying assumption here that letting children do
>>punish/reward/praise, how do you draw the line between practicing this
>>"parenting with" style (as Kohn calls it) and being a permissive parent,
>>letting them do whatever they want?<<
whatever they want would mean that they would want to do things we wouldn't
want them to. Also, that being a permissive parent is something we wouldn't
want to be.
I think I would be categorized as a permissive parent. Which is good :o)
If we are talking about young children who may choose things that don't fit
in the situation they are in, like screaming in a restaurant, or running
through people in a store, the idea is not to say "No", but instead to
re-direct...take them outside where they can scream or run...not with
reprimand or a feeling of being punished, but going out with them with
pleasantness and joy. It's a matter of being "with" them in what they are
doing, and, being the more experienced person, finding a way to let them do
it in the moment.
>>Do you really NEVER have to punish/reward/praise?<<My kids are ages 14, 15, 18 and 19. They have never been grounded, spanked,
made to go to their rooms, timed out, etc. When things have come up in the
past...arguments, disrespectful behavior, etc...we discussed, just I like I
would do with my husband, though the language may be different. If there was
heat in the moment, I worked to stay calm and loving, seeking to understand
all sides of whatever the situation was. Sometimes kids would have to
separate so no one would be hurt. It wasn't long before kids understood that
they would be heard, and they usually allowed my attention to go to another
child. Sometimes saying that everyone will get a turn to talk helped if
things started to escalate. In fact, when kids learn that their parent(s)
will seek to understand them, and will genuinely listen to them, situations
diffuse more quickly, until they come to a place of more easily working
things out themselves.
A couple of my kids sometimes swear a lot in their conversations with each
other or with friends at home. Usually it doesn't bother me at all. But
sometimes it does. I'll say something like, "I'm feeling a little sensitive
about the swearing right now" and they gladly stop. Nothing unharmonious and
no hard feelings on any side. Last night my son Max asked me to turn down
the volume on the TV. And I did, happily. We listen to and respect each
other.
Of praise: my son and his band recently won a huge jazz competition in
California. He didn't get to the level of musicianship that he has through
any praise by us. He didn't look to see what made other people happy in this
endeavor. This is a passion. It has been self-driven, and fortunately, we
knew enough to stay out of the way and support the passion, (mostly in
supplying equipment and rides to lessons and just appreciating his work). I
sometimes wonder if he would have gone as far as he has if we were
rah-rah-reeing on the sidelines.
This idea applies to playdough-making, getting dressed and
teeth-brushing...how would you feel if someone you lived with interrupted
every little thing you did with "Good job!". It's pretty condescending
actually.
>>Or is it more about aI think so, and how you approach each situation. We're not their sculptors,
>>change in how you look at each situation?<<
we are their foundations.
Jacki
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 14, 2008, at 6:57 AM, Gold Standard wrote:
parents providing the scaffolding of their child's life - it provides
safety, a place to "be", it is adjustable, it lets them get to places
they couldn't otherwise. But it isn't the POINT. It is support "as
needed." It doesn't decide what is to be done, it allows the child to
do what he/she wants to do.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> We're not their sculptors, we are their foundations.WELL said. I used to say we are their scaffolding. I like the image of
parents providing the scaffolding of their child's life - it provides
safety, a place to "be", it is adjustable, it lets them get to places
they couldn't otherwise. But it isn't the POINT. It is support "as
needed." It doesn't decide what is to be done, it allows the child to
do what he/she wants to do.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If we are talking about young children who may choose things that
don't fit
in the situation they are in, like screaming in a restaurant, or running
through people in a store, the idea is not to say "No", but instead to
re-direct...take them outside where they can scream or run...not with
reprimand or a feeling of being punished, but going out with them with
pleasantness and joy. It's a matter of being "with" them in what they
are
doing, and, being the more experienced person, finding a way to let
them do
it in the moment.-=-
This is too permissive for my tastes. Saying yes as much as you can
does not (in my view) extend to saying "Yes, scream in public," but
to pointing out that there are some things that are not done in some
places. Take them out, yes, but don't say "Yes, screaming is great,
let's do it in the parking lot." But "No, screaming where people are
sitting quietly isn't cool; can you stop?" (Not in those words, in
real words appropriate to the situation and the people.) If stopping
isn't an option, then take them somewhere else and get it stopped
sweetly and gently, but even parking lots aren't great places for
screaming kids.
-=-In fact, when kids learn that their parent(s) will seek to
understand them, and will genuinely listen to them, situations
diffuse more quickly, until they come to a place of more easily
working things out themselves.-=-
This has been wholly true at our house, and has broadened to the
point where they trust each other more, and their friends trust them
(my kids) a LOT, to be fair and rational and patient and to listen
and help sort things through. It's probably as much nature as
nurture, but the nurture honed it.
-=-We're not their sculptors, we are their foundations.-=-
Jacki that's beautiful!!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't fit
in the situation they are in, like screaming in a restaurant, or running
through people in a store, the idea is not to say "No", but instead to
re-direct...take them outside where they can scream or run...not with
reprimand or a feeling of being punished, but going out with them with
pleasantness and joy. It's a matter of being "with" them in what they
are
doing, and, being the more experienced person, finding a way to let
them do
it in the moment.-=-
This is too permissive for my tastes. Saying yes as much as you can
does not (in my view) extend to saying "Yes, scream in public," but
to pointing out that there are some things that are not done in some
places. Take them out, yes, but don't say "Yes, screaming is great,
let's do it in the parking lot." But "No, screaming where people are
sitting quietly isn't cool; can you stop?" (Not in those words, in
real words appropriate to the situation and the people.) If stopping
isn't an option, then take them somewhere else and get it stopped
sweetly and gently, but even parking lots aren't great places for
screaming kids.
-=-In fact, when kids learn that their parent(s) will seek to
understand them, and will genuinely listen to them, situations
diffuse more quickly, until they come to a place of more easily
working things out themselves.-=-
This has been wholly true at our house, and has broadened to the
point where they trust each other more, and their friends trust them
(my kids) a LOT, to be fair and rational and patient and to listen
and help sort things through. It's probably as much nature as
nurture, but the nurture honed it.
-=-We're not their sculptors, we are their foundations.-=-
Jacki that's beautiful!!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Musolff
***when kids learn that their parent(s)
will seek to understand them, and will genuinely listen to them, situations
diffuse more quickly, until they come to a place of more easily working
things out themselves.***
I've been noticing this with my son! Since I've been trying the "no
punishment" etc. approach, each situation--where I would normally say, "Go
to your room!"--has been dealt with in a more loving and thoughtful way.
I'm trying really hard to see things from his perspective. Today, N flipped
out because we turned the bathroom faucet off on him. (He was outside and
left it running.) He stormed off outside, screaming that he wanted to
either die (from the mountain lions that live near our house) or kill me!
Normally I'd freak out because he had gotten so violent. But today, I
approached him in a very loving way. I ignored the comments and made him
understand that I loved him, no matter what, and then began to help him see
that we weren't trying to be mean to him. In the middle of our
conversation, just as I was wondering if I was approaching this the right
way or not, he suddenly said, "Oh Mommy, I forgot to tell you! I just saw a
whole herd of deer galloping away a few minutes ago! They went that way."
Then he continued his happy banter and completely forgot that he was mad at
me! Just like that! I was floored! It was like a switch went off in him.
So I am starting to see how my changes are affecting him.
BUT...
Here is a situation that I'm not sure how to approach: N (6) is constantly
hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He runs up,
hits us, and then runs away. We (DH especially) find it really hard to just
do nothing about this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish. Even
though we talk to him about other ways to vent his frustration, we feel like
we're "doing nothing." Logically, I get the fact that it would really do
him no good to be punished. I understand that no matter what the punishment
would be, he wouldn't learn the lesson we are trying to teach ("No
hitting"). I guess what I am having trouble with is the trust issue. I
find it really hard to believe that if we don't do SOMETHING to show him
that it is not okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone, for that matter),
then he won't ever learn that. (You know those disrespectful adults that we
desperately don't want our children to turn out to be?) I suppose it's
about fear.
Another thing: I feel like I've been trying so hard to be loving and
respectful in my new approach to parenting, that I am putting my own
feelings on hold. Now to a degree, that's what I'm supposed to do as the
mature adult. But I don't think hiding my emotions is really healthy for
either of us. Is it possible to be respectful and loving towards your
children and also show them that you are angry and annoyed?
(Sorry for the rant! You just got me thinking again!)
***We're not their sculptors,
we are their foundations.***
My mother use to say that it was her job to "mold" us while we were little.
She lovingly called it "brainwashing!" And I wonder why I can't think for
myself half the time!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will seek to understand them, and will genuinely listen to them, situations
diffuse more quickly, until they come to a place of more easily working
things out themselves.***
I've been noticing this with my son! Since I've been trying the "no
punishment" etc. approach, each situation--where I would normally say, "Go
to your room!"--has been dealt with in a more loving and thoughtful way.
I'm trying really hard to see things from his perspective. Today, N flipped
out because we turned the bathroom faucet off on him. (He was outside and
left it running.) He stormed off outside, screaming that he wanted to
either die (from the mountain lions that live near our house) or kill me!
Normally I'd freak out because he had gotten so violent. But today, I
approached him in a very loving way. I ignored the comments and made him
understand that I loved him, no matter what, and then began to help him see
that we weren't trying to be mean to him. In the middle of our
conversation, just as I was wondering if I was approaching this the right
way or not, he suddenly said, "Oh Mommy, I forgot to tell you! I just saw a
whole herd of deer galloping away a few minutes ago! They went that way."
Then he continued his happy banter and completely forgot that he was mad at
me! Just like that! I was floored! It was like a switch went off in him.
So I am starting to see how my changes are affecting him.
BUT...
Here is a situation that I'm not sure how to approach: N (6) is constantly
hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He runs up,
hits us, and then runs away. We (DH especially) find it really hard to just
do nothing about this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish. Even
though we talk to him about other ways to vent his frustration, we feel like
we're "doing nothing." Logically, I get the fact that it would really do
him no good to be punished. I understand that no matter what the punishment
would be, he wouldn't learn the lesson we are trying to teach ("No
hitting"). I guess what I am having trouble with is the trust issue. I
find it really hard to believe that if we don't do SOMETHING to show him
that it is not okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone, for that matter),
then he won't ever learn that. (You know those disrespectful adults that we
desperately don't want our children to turn out to be?) I suppose it's
about fear.
Another thing: I feel like I've been trying so hard to be loving and
respectful in my new approach to parenting, that I am putting my own
feelings on hold. Now to a degree, that's what I'm supposed to do as the
mature adult. But I don't think hiding my emotions is really healthy for
either of us. Is it possible to be respectful and loving towards your
children and also show them that you are angry and annoyed?
(Sorry for the rant! You just got me thinking again!)
***We're not their sculptors,
we are their foundations.***
My mother use to say that it was her job to "mold" us while we were little.
She lovingly called it "brainwashing!" And I wonder why I can't think for
myself half the time!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:21 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:
Rather than focusing on his reaction to frustration and anger, focus
on finding ways for him to not be angry and frustrated!
That won't eliminate it all, but it's a big step. What he wants when
he's frustrated and angry is to solve whatever problem is causing it!
When he has other tools to solve his problems with you can say "No
hitting" and then focus on more helpful solutions. If he doesn't
have other tools, then it's not his fault!
If you're in the middle of a frustrating problem and you do something
(throw something, swear, whatever) and someone tells you not to throw
things, how do you feel? Doesn't that sound like "I don't care what
your problem is, don't do something I don't like." Wouldn't you feel
*more* frustrated and angry?
But in most cases it's even better to find ways not to be angry and
annoyed. To turn your thinking around so that you're seeing things
from a different perspective. Easily said, of course! And there are
various techniques people have mentioned.
Have you read Scott Noelle's Daily Groove? They're short and to the
point. He often has techniques for seeing things differently. Here's
a recent one. Click on the link and you can subscribe to his daily
emails.
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
:: From REactive to PROactive ::
Reactive parenting is like an airplane on auto-pilot
flying off-course: to set a new course you must first
get control of the plane on its *present* course.
That means, paradoxically, that you can avoid an
unwanted reaction by deciding to do it *deliberately*!
Example: You're about to yell at your child, and
you can't stop yourself. So you decide to yell
*on purpose*, with the full force of your deliberate
intention! BUT...
You alter the outburst in some way that makes it
benign, like singing a really high/loud note instead
of yelling, or changing your words to "Blabbety!
Blabbety! BLAH!" Anything that works *with* your
emotional energy rather than against it.
Once you've shifted from REactive to PROactive, you
can direct your energy *consciously*, in accord with
your ideals.
This technique is not a panacea, but it works
especially well with *mild* reactiveness -- often
turning potential conflict into playful fun!
http://dailygroove.net/reactive-to-proactive
Feel free to forward this message to your friends!
(Please include this paragraph and everything above.)
Copyright (c) 2008 by Scott Noelle
Joyce
> N (6) is constantly*Why* is he frustrated and angry?
> hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He
> runs up,
> hits us, and then runs away.
Rather than focusing on his reaction to frustration and anger, focus
on finding ways for him to not be angry and frustrated!
That won't eliminate it all, but it's a big step. What he wants when
he's frustrated and angry is to solve whatever problem is causing it!
When he has other tools to solve his problems with you can say "No
hitting" and then focus on more helpful solutions. If he doesn't
have other tools, then it's not his fault!
If you're in the middle of a frustrating problem and you do something
(throw something, swear, whatever) and someone tells you not to throw
things, how do you feel? Doesn't that sound like "I don't care what
your problem is, don't do something I don't like." Wouldn't you feel
*more* frustrated and angry?
> I feel like I've been trying so hard to be loving andDepends. Specific examples help.
> respectful in my new approach to parenting, that I am putting my own
> feelings on hold. Now to a degree, that's what I'm supposed to do
> as the
> mature adult. But I don't think hiding my emotions is really
> healthy for
> either of us. Is it possible to be respectful and loving towards your
> children and also show them that you are angry and annoyed?
>
But in most cases it's even better to find ways not to be angry and
annoyed. To turn your thinking around so that you're seeing things
from a different perspective. Easily said, of course! And there are
various techniques people have mentioned.
Have you read Scott Noelle's Daily Groove? They're short and to the
point. He often has techniques for seeing things differently. Here's
a recent one. Click on the link and you can subscribe to his daily
emails.
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
:: From REactive to PROactive ::
Reactive parenting is like an airplane on auto-pilot
flying off-course: to set a new course you must first
get control of the plane on its *present* course.
That means, paradoxically, that you can avoid an
unwanted reaction by deciding to do it *deliberately*!
Example: You're about to yell at your child, and
you can't stop yourself. So you decide to yell
*on purpose*, with the full force of your deliberate
intention! BUT...
You alter the outburst in some way that makes it
benign, like singing a really high/loud note instead
of yelling, or changing your words to "Blabbety!
Blabbety! BLAH!" Anything that works *with* your
emotional energy rather than against it.
Once you've shifted from REactive to PROactive, you
can direct your energy *consciously*, in accord with
your ideals.
This technique is not a panacea, but it works
especially well with *mild* reactiveness -- often
turning potential conflict into playful fun!
http://dailygroove.net/reactive-to-proactive
Feel free to forward this message to your friends!
(Please include this paragraph and everything above.)
Copyright (c) 2008 by Scott Noelle
Joyce
Shannon Foust
<<I think so, and how you approach each situation. We're not their sculptors,
we are their foundations.>>
Jackie - I loved everything you had to say! I wish I could also say that my kids were in there teens and that I had never grounded them, spanked them, sent them to their rooms. :( My teens are pretty controlling with eachother and their younger siblings. I cringe because I think "sheesh, I did that...I modeled that behavior and trained them to be that way" Ugh. But, I can go forward today choose something better from here on out. Anyway, I loved what you said about not being their sculptors, but their foundations. That goes SO against the idea that we have to "mold their little minds and hearts"...but it sounds so right! It rings in my spirit.
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we are their foundations.>>
Jackie - I loved everything you had to say! I wish I could also say that my kids were in there teens and that I had never grounded them, spanked them, sent them to their rooms. :( My teens are pretty controlling with eachother and their younger siblings. I cringe because I think "sheesh, I did that...I modeled that behavior and trained them to be that way" Ugh. But, I can go forward today choose something better from here on out. Anyway, I loved what you said about not being their sculptors, but their foundations. That goes SO against the idea that we have to "mold their little minds and hearts"...but it sounds so right! It rings in my spirit.
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Today, N flipped
out because we turned the bathroom faucet off on him. (He was outside
and
left it running.) He stormed off outside,-=-
Something's missing. If he went outside and left the faucet running
and you turned it off, what was there to flip out about? If he was
outside, how did he storm off outside?
Please clarify for us.
-=-...screaming that he wanted to either die (from the mountain lions
that live near our house) or kill me! Normally I'd freak out because
he had gotten so violent.-=-
You've defined that as violent. He didn't even attempt to kill you,
or you'd probably have mentioned it. He left, screaming.
If you define that as expression instead of violence, you'll be a
giant step closer to clarity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out because we turned the bathroom faucet off on him. (He was outside
and
left it running.) He stormed off outside,-=-
Something's missing. If he went outside and left the faucet running
and you turned it off, what was there to flip out about? If he was
outside, how did he storm off outside?
Please clarify for us.
-=-...screaming that he wanted to either die (from the mountain lions
that live near our house) or kill me! Normally I'd freak out because
he had gotten so violent.-=-
You've defined that as violent. He didn't even attempt to kill you,
or you'd probably have mentioned it. He left, screaming.
If you define that as expression instead of violence, you'll be a
giant step closer to clarity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-N (6) is constantly
hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He runs up,
hits us, and then runs away. We (DH especially) find it really hard
to just
do nothing about this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish.
Even
though we talk to him about other ways to vent his frustration, we
feel like
we're "doing nothing." -=-
This will seem picky, and it is, but the words you're using aren't
reflecting clear thought.
If you can look at what you yourself write down, do a pass at
deciding if it's clearly true or to the point, you can figure more of
these things out on your own. Not that people on this list will mind
helping, but rather than having us show you what you're thinking, you
can begin to work on mindfully observing your own thoughts.
So he's not "constantly" hitting you. Constant would be....
constant. Not doing anything else in his life.
You said he does it when he's angry or frustrated. Something made
him angry or frustrated. Can you work back a few steps and see what
you or your husband did to cause so much fear and unhappiness in your
son?
The question I'm going to ask about this is real and important,
though you can answer it internally and not here if you'd rather:
-=-We (DH especially) find it really hard to just do nothing about
this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish. Even though we
talk to him about other ways to vent his frustration, we feel like
we're "doing nothing." -=-
What were you doing when you were "doing something"?
How was that working out for you?
Instead of talking to him about other ways to vent his frustration,
how about removing the frustrations as much as you can? when he
starts to trust you, he'll relax and soften up. He's feeling trapped
and defensive, as any frightened mammal will do. I bet you could
figure out how to get a dog to bite, or a cat to scratch, or a rat or
mouse to freak out. Somehow you've caused your child to freak out
and hit.
-=- I find it really hard to believe that if we don't do SOMETHING to
show him that it is not okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone,
for that matter), then he won't ever learn that. -=-
I think you want him to feign respect, rather than actually becoming
people he can't help but respect.
Real respect has to do with trust and admiration.
-=-(You know those disrespectful adults that we desperately don't
want our children to turn out to be?) -=-
Of course. They were all shamed and ignored and punished and
bullied, weren't they? In my experience, those who grew up with a
chip on their shoulder are bundles of resentment. They're usually
resenting real actions and limits and indifference that can be
recited, if they're still in the mood to talk about it. Some got out
of the mood to talk or think about it years ago.
-=-Another thing: I feel like I've been trying so hard to be loving and
respectful in my new approach to parenting, that I am putting my own
feelings on hold. Now to a degree, that's what I'm supposed to do as the
mature adult. But I don't think hiding my emotions is really healthy for
either of us. Is it possible to be respectful and loving towards your
children and also show them that you are angry and annoyed?-=-
It is possible to say "That frustrates me, but let's figure out what
to do." One very healing thing would be to apologize to him from
time to time. Maybe like "I know we would have hit you for this or
sent you to your room, when you were little, but I wish I hadn't.
Help me figure out a better thing to do."
Things will get better and better as you make choices that lead
toward the place you want to be. Your son is older every day, every
moment.
Please read this, about respect:
http://sandradodd.com/respect
and this, about the advice Kirby and Marty gave me one night when I
was tired and overwhelmed and frustrated and swatted Marty, hard, on
his naked thigh.
http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He runs up,
hits us, and then runs away. We (DH especially) find it really hard
to just
do nothing about this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish.
Even
though we talk to him about other ways to vent his frustration, we
feel like
we're "doing nothing." -=-
This will seem picky, and it is, but the words you're using aren't
reflecting clear thought.
If you can look at what you yourself write down, do a pass at
deciding if it's clearly true or to the point, you can figure more of
these things out on your own. Not that people on this list will mind
helping, but rather than having us show you what you're thinking, you
can begin to work on mindfully observing your own thoughts.
So he's not "constantly" hitting you. Constant would be....
constant. Not doing anything else in his life.
You said he does it when he's angry or frustrated. Something made
him angry or frustrated. Can you work back a few steps and see what
you or your husband did to cause so much fear and unhappiness in your
son?
The question I'm going to ask about this is real and important,
though you can answer it internally and not here if you'd rather:
-=-We (DH especially) find it really hard to just do nothing about
this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish. Even though we
talk to him about other ways to vent his frustration, we feel like
we're "doing nothing." -=-
What were you doing when you were "doing something"?
How was that working out for you?
Instead of talking to him about other ways to vent his frustration,
how about removing the frustrations as much as you can? when he
starts to trust you, he'll relax and soften up. He's feeling trapped
and defensive, as any frightened mammal will do. I bet you could
figure out how to get a dog to bite, or a cat to scratch, or a rat or
mouse to freak out. Somehow you've caused your child to freak out
and hit.
-=- I find it really hard to believe that if we don't do SOMETHING to
show him that it is not okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone,
for that matter), then he won't ever learn that. -=-
I think you want him to feign respect, rather than actually becoming
people he can't help but respect.
Real respect has to do with trust and admiration.
-=-(You know those disrespectful adults that we desperately don't
want our children to turn out to be?) -=-
Of course. They were all shamed and ignored and punished and
bullied, weren't they? In my experience, those who grew up with a
chip on their shoulder are bundles of resentment. They're usually
resenting real actions and limits and indifference that can be
recited, if they're still in the mood to talk about it. Some got out
of the mood to talk or think about it years ago.
-=-Another thing: I feel like I've been trying so hard to be loving and
respectful in my new approach to parenting, that I am putting my own
feelings on hold. Now to a degree, that's what I'm supposed to do as the
mature adult. But I don't think hiding my emotions is really healthy for
either of us. Is it possible to be respectful and loving towards your
children and also show them that you are angry and annoyed?-=-
It is possible to say "That frustrates me, but let's figure out what
to do." One very healing thing would be to apologize to him from
time to time. Maybe like "I know we would have hit you for this or
sent you to your room, when you were little, but I wish I hadn't.
Help me figure out a better thing to do."
Things will get better and better as you make choices that lead
toward the place you want to be. Your son is older every day, every
moment.
Please read this, about respect:
http://sandradodd.com/respect
and this, about the advice Kirby and Marty gave me one night when I
was tired and overwhelmed and frustrated and swatted Marty, hard, on
his naked thigh.
http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
" I find it really hard to believe that if we don't do SOMETHING to show him that it is not
okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone, for that matter), then he won't ever learn that. You know those disrespectful adults that we desperately don't want our children to turn
out to be?) I suppose it's about fear.
We had some horrible scenes growing up with my father "demanding respect." We NEVER
knew what that meant, but when he would say it I would have this disgusted kind of
feeling toward him. I couldn't give him what he wanted, and he knew it. He saw his own
disrespect of us reflected back to him in our eyes, and he hated it.
I see my respectfulness reflected back to me through my kids eyes and it fills my heart.
Sometimes we'll talk about specific behavior that can feel more respectful or disrespectful,
but we speak in terms of appearances. I would never tell my children they owe anyone
respect. People have to earn it--it's not given, it's grown and nurtured.
"You know those disrespectful adults that we desperately don't want our children to turn
out to be?) I suppose it's about fear."
I started to think, oh yeah--and then I realized that no, I don't actually know what you
mean. I suspect that this is about fear, and about a stereotype in your mind. And do you
really think it fair to apply it to a six-year-old? It might be one you want to examine a
little more closely and throw out!
When we let close family and friends know that we were going to work on starting a family
(we'd been married 5 years already, and had lots of people wanting to know!), they were
all very happy and supportive. When I told my father, who lives in a pretty critical world
full of worry and fear, he presented me with his fear for me--it looked like this:
That I would become like those women he sees in Wal-Mart, who are really fat and have a
bunch of kids running around them out of control. And did I mention she's really fat?
Where did this come from? Beats me. But he had this image in his head for me. Wasn't
that lovely? lol Anyway, that image didn't really affect me much because it wasn't based
on anything remotely having to do with me or my life, and in fact by that time I had two
college degrees--and I'm sure the woman in his vision didn't have one. But it sure let me
know that this wasn't a person that I could trust to see me in any meaningful way. Work
to see your son clearly--not through the skewed vision of a stereotype.
Joanna
okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone, for that matter), then he won't ever learn that. You know those disrespectful adults that we desperately don't want our children to turn
out to be?) I suppose it's about fear.
>The way to have respectful kids is to treat them respectfully. Period.
We had some horrible scenes growing up with my father "demanding respect." We NEVER
knew what that meant, but when he would say it I would have this disgusted kind of
feeling toward him. I couldn't give him what he wanted, and he knew it. He saw his own
disrespect of us reflected back to him in our eyes, and he hated it.
I see my respectfulness reflected back to me through my kids eyes and it fills my heart.
Sometimes we'll talk about specific behavior that can feel more respectful or disrespectful,
but we speak in terms of appearances. I would never tell my children they owe anyone
respect. People have to earn it--it's not given, it's grown and nurtured.
"You know those disrespectful adults that we desperately don't want our children to turn
out to be?) I suppose it's about fear."
I started to think, oh yeah--and then I realized that no, I don't actually know what you
mean. I suspect that this is about fear, and about a stereotype in your mind. And do you
really think it fair to apply it to a six-year-old? It might be one you want to examine a
little more closely and throw out!
When we let close family and friends know that we were going to work on starting a family
(we'd been married 5 years already, and had lots of people wanting to know!), they were
all very happy and supportive. When I told my father, who lives in a pretty critical world
full of worry and fear, he presented me with his fear for me--it looked like this:
That I would become like those women he sees in Wal-Mart, who are really fat and have a
bunch of kids running around them out of control. And did I mention she's really fat?
Where did this come from? Beats me. But he had this image in his head for me. Wasn't
that lovely? lol Anyway, that image didn't really affect me much because it wasn't based
on anything remotely having to do with me or my life, and in fact by that time I had two
college degrees--and I'm sure the woman in his vision didn't have one. But it sure let me
know that this wasn't a person that I could trust to see me in any meaningful way. Work
to see your son clearly--not through the skewed vision of a stereotype.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-Work to see your son clearly--not through the skewed vision of a
stereotype. -=-
Wow. That's great!
Negativity is more negative than hope, happiness, joy, humor, trust,
love... Negativity is more negative than anything else!! <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stereotype. -=-
Wow. That's great!
Negativity is more negative than hope, happiness, joy, humor, trust,
love... Negativity is more negative than anything else!! <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>I like that too! Sometimes when I'm really mad at one of my kids for
> -=-Work to see your son clearly--not through the skewed vision of a
> stereotype. -=-
>
>
> Wow. That's great!
>
> Negativity is more negative than hope, happiness, joy, humor, trust,
> love... Negativity is more negative than anything else!! <bwg>
>
whatever reason wether they did something or wether it's just me being a
ninny head, I find the very very best thing for me to do is refocus my
thoughts. It goes something like this... AAAhhh I really hate that she
is behaving that way, ok, but she usually doesn't behave that way, ok,
usually she's really kind and considerate of ..., ok, I like it that she
is like that, that is her true nature, she's kind and considerate, she
must be really in a lot of pain right now to be feeling so yucky as to
lash out and behave in that way, ok, I should go and talk to her with
that beautiful image of her true person in my head and let her know how
much I love her and that if she needs help with anything that I'm there
for her, just say the word.
The shift of seeing my kids as beautiful people with beautiful qualities
helps me focus on that part of their nature and accept that what they
are showing me when they aren't that way isn't really their true nature,
but a temporary reaction to circumstances. The simple thought of seeing
my kids as beautiful rather than tyrannical, allows me to help them with
compassion.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 15, 2008, at 1:21 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:
respectfully, which is not the same as actually having respect.
Earn his respect for your thoughtfulness and kindness and helpfulness,
for the way you behave, yourselves.
I don't mean let him hit you - would YOU respect someone who let him/
herself be hit over and over?
When he runs at you, to hit you, wrap your arms around him. Hold him
just firmly enough so he can't hit you. Squat down to his level and
look right into his eyes and say, "What do you need?"
Do that IMMEDIATELY when you see him coming. Even if he gets a little
bit of a hit in, do it. Hold his arms so he can't hit you again. Say,
"No hitting. What do you need?" It can also help to give him some
words for expressing emotions. Hitting is usually frustration, often
because of not being able to articulate needs.
-pam
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> IYou're not using the word "respect" correctly. You mean "act"
> find it really hard to believe that if we don't do SOMETHING to show
> him
> that it is not okay to disrespect his parents (or anyone, for that
> matter),
> then he won't ever learn that. (You know those disrespectful adults
> that we
> desperately don't want our children to turn out to be?) I suppose it's
> about fear.
respectfully, which is not the same as actually having respect.
Earn his respect for your thoughtfulness and kindness and helpfulness,
for the way you behave, yourselves.
I don't mean let him hit you - would YOU respect someone who let him/
herself be hit over and over?
When he runs at you, to hit you, wrap your arms around him. Hold him
just firmly enough so he can't hit you. Squat down to his level and
look right into his eyes and say, "What do you need?"
Do that IMMEDIATELY when you see him coming. Even if he gets a little
bit of a hit in, do it. Hold his arms so he can't hit you again. Say,
"No hitting. What do you need?" It can also help to give him some
words for expressing emotions. Hitting is usually frustration, often
because of not being able to articulate needs.
-pam
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Shannon Foust
<<Here is a situation that I'm not sure how to approach: N (6) is constantly
hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He runs up,
hits us, and then runs away. We (DH especially) find it really hard to just
do nothing about this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish. >>
Maybe he just needs practice doing it differently. For instance, if he comes up and hits you, you could remind him to "use your words" or ask him, "it seems like you'd like to tell me or daddy something? What would you like to say?" Or maybe you can say, "if you need to hit, go hit your pillow a little then come back and tell us what you want to say". Do you think any of those would work? I think after awhile ... after practicing... he'll be better at using words instead of hitting. It's a thought.
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
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hitting DH and I! He does it when he is angry or frustrated. He runs up,
hits us, and then runs away. We (DH especially) find it really hard to just
do nothing about this. And by "do nothing," of course, I mean punish. >>
Maybe he just needs practice doing it differently. For instance, if he comes up and hits you, you could remind him to "use your words" or ask him, "it seems like you'd like to tell me or daddy something? What would you like to say?" Or maybe you can say, "if you need to hit, go hit your pillow a little then come back and tell us what you want to say". Do you think any of those would work? I think after awhile ... after practicing... he'll be better at using words instead of hitting. It's a thought.
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
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