Marx
Julie Stauffer
Hi all,
I have been studying Karl Marx for awhile now and yesterday was reading "Marxism vs. Christianity". The book talked at length about how Marx viewed an unfettered man as a whole man. About how back before industrialization when people saw more personal purpose to their work, when the work was their own rather than to be bought and sold, they were more intact. He talks about how when a person's labor went from being a regular part of his life (like farming or artisan) to something outside of himself that he sold to the highest bidder, the person became alienated from himself. He wrote "As individuals express their lives, so are they." Meaning that when a person's labor (the expressions of their lives) is out there to be judged by others, accepted or rejected, hired or fired, the person loses his humanity.
I was thinking about that in response to schooling. When we take a child's labor (learning) and turn it into something to be judged (test scores, worksheets), something outside of the child himself, do we cause alienation for that child? Is that why deschooling can seem such a painful process at times ....as the child reintegrates his being? Could that be why unschooling children seem so much more alive and joyful.....they are whole?
Just wondering what anyone else might think about it.
Julie
"Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them against you"--Harry Browne
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"-- John F. Kennedy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been studying Karl Marx for awhile now and yesterday was reading "Marxism vs. Christianity". The book talked at length about how Marx viewed an unfettered man as a whole man. About how back before industrialization when people saw more personal purpose to their work, when the work was their own rather than to be bought and sold, they were more intact. He talks about how when a person's labor went from being a regular part of his life (like farming or artisan) to something outside of himself that he sold to the highest bidder, the person became alienated from himself. He wrote "As individuals express their lives, so are they." Meaning that when a person's labor (the expressions of their lives) is out there to be judged by others, accepted or rejected, hired or fired, the person loses his humanity.
I was thinking about that in response to schooling. When we take a child's labor (learning) and turn it into something to be judged (test scores, worksheets), something outside of the child himself, do we cause alienation for that child? Is that why deschooling can seem such a painful process at times ....as the child reintegrates his being? Could that be why unschooling children seem so much more alive and joyful.....they are whole?
Just wondering what anyone else might think about it.
Julie
"Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them against you"--Harry Browne
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"-- John F. Kennedy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Julie's quotes:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
This is on the bottom of one of the posters on my [Greenpower}list. I really
like it alot.
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Stauffer <jnjstau@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:09 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Marx
an unfettered man as a whole man. About how back before industrialization
when people saw more personal purpose to their work, when the work was their
own rather than to be bought and sold, they were more intact. He talks
about how when a person's labor went from being a regular part of his life
(like farming or artisan) to something outside of himself that he sold to
the highest bidder, the person became alienated from himself. He wrote "As
individuals express their lives, so are they." Meaning that when a person's
labor (the expressions of their lives) is out there to be judged by others,
accepted or rejected, hired or fired, the person loses his humanity.
worksheets), something outside of the child himself, do we cause alienation
for that child? Is that why deschooling can seem such a painful process at
times ....as the child reintegrates his being? Could that be why
unschooling children seem so much more alive and joyful.....they are whole?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
This is on the bottom of one of the posters on my [Greenpower}list. I really
like it alot.
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Stauffer <jnjstau@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:09 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Marx
>Hi all,"Marxism vs. Christianity". The book talked at length about how Marx viewed
>
>I have been studying Karl Marx for awhile now and yesterday was reading
an unfettered man as a whole man. About how back before industrialization
when people saw more personal purpose to their work, when the work was their
own rather than to be bought and sold, they were more intact. He talks
about how when a person's labor went from being a regular part of his life
(like farming or artisan) to something outside of himself that he sold to
the highest bidder, the person became alienated from himself. He wrote "As
individuals express their lives, so are they." Meaning that when a person's
labor (the expressions of their lives) is out there to be judged by others,
accepted or rejected, hired or fired, the person loses his humanity.
>labor (learning) and turn it into something to be judged (test scores,
>I was thinking about that in response to schooling. When we take a child's
worksheets), something outside of the child himself, do we cause alienation
for that child? Is that why deschooling can seem such a painful process at
times ....as the child reintegrates his being? Could that be why
unschooling children seem so much more alive and joyful.....they are whole?
>against you"--Harry Browne
>Just wondering what anyone else might think about it.
>Julie
>
>"Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them
>safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Benjamin Franklin
>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>inevitable"-- John F. Kennedy
>"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
zenmomma *
>>I was thinking about that in response to schooling. When we take aCould it also be why radical unschooling parents are perceived as
>>child's labor (learning) and turn it into something to be judged (test
>>scores, worksheets), something outside of the child himself, do we cause
>>alienation for that child? Is that why deschooling can seem such a
>>painful process at times ....as the child reintegrates his being? Could
>>that be why unschooling children seem so much more alive and
>>joyful.....they are whole?>>
threatening by mainstream schoolers and homeschoolers. Unschooling equated
with Marxist thought?
~Mary
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In a message dated 1/29/02 2:40:38 PM, zenmomma@... writes:
<< Could it also be why radical unschooling parents are perceived as
threatening by mainstream schoolers and homeschoolers. Unschooling equated
with Marxist thought? >>
I've joked often about unschoolers "cheating," and while it's a humorous
statement, there's a chilling reality and truth underneath.
Our school-found culture prized independent thought. Those schools which try
to teach groups, or universities in which three people work together on a
project or paper are considered wrong, lazy, trouble-making. We do NOT
prize cooperation. It's wimpy. "Cooperative games" are for the disabled, in
most people's minds. For the mentally unstable. For those who can't handle
a REAL competitive situation.
One of the most horrible things any college student can do is to cheat.
Cheat at a military academy, and your future takes a sudden 90-degree turn.
The reason they can't "cheat" is that grading is competitive.
The reason grades are important is it proves you "earned" something--they're
paying you for your cooperation and time sacrificed, and tasks performed, and
hoops jumped.
It's not about learning the material. It's about the combination of
memorization, performance, humility, punctuality/attendance, payment-making
(finances cannot be forgotten in education!) and turning the other cheek.
So high school is to prepare you for that. So mid-school/jr. high prepares
you for *that,* and on down to pre-school.
Meanwhile, off the track entirely, are unschoolers. Their goal isn't "to
earn" or to compete. Their goal is to learn.
Their goal isn't to be the best-outfitted kid on the first day of school, and
to earn the most friends of their age group. It's to wear something
comfortable, collect things around them they enjoy, and have adult friends,
older kid-friends, younger kid-friends, or no friends at all. Just whatever.
"Just whatever" doesn't fit on the American chart, except for the homeless
guys ranting on the street corners, and they're often criminals. They're
trespassing, loitering vagrants.
So here's how we cheat: Unschoolers never once ever have to "do it on their
own." They're never told "YOU SIT THERE UNTIL YOU GET IT RIGHT, MISTER!" or
"Did you have help with that project?" ("Yes" is their best answer!)
Because we turn our backs on the "earning" portion of the program, and
consider knowledge to be freely available to anyone interested in picking it
up, does that make it Marxist? I don't think so. There's an unlimited
supply of knowledge and thought. Everyone can be rich. Nobody can hoarde.
Sandra
<< Could it also be why radical unschooling parents are perceived as
threatening by mainstream schoolers and homeschoolers. Unschooling equated
with Marxist thought? >>
I've joked often about unschoolers "cheating," and while it's a humorous
statement, there's a chilling reality and truth underneath.
Our school-found culture prized independent thought. Those schools which try
to teach groups, or universities in which three people work together on a
project or paper are considered wrong, lazy, trouble-making. We do NOT
prize cooperation. It's wimpy. "Cooperative games" are for the disabled, in
most people's minds. For the mentally unstable. For those who can't handle
a REAL competitive situation.
One of the most horrible things any college student can do is to cheat.
Cheat at a military academy, and your future takes a sudden 90-degree turn.
The reason they can't "cheat" is that grading is competitive.
The reason grades are important is it proves you "earned" something--they're
paying you for your cooperation and time sacrificed, and tasks performed, and
hoops jumped.
It's not about learning the material. It's about the combination of
memorization, performance, humility, punctuality/attendance, payment-making
(finances cannot be forgotten in education!) and turning the other cheek.
So high school is to prepare you for that. So mid-school/jr. high prepares
you for *that,* and on down to pre-school.
Meanwhile, off the track entirely, are unschoolers. Their goal isn't "to
earn" or to compete. Their goal is to learn.
Their goal isn't to be the best-outfitted kid on the first day of school, and
to earn the most friends of their age group. It's to wear something
comfortable, collect things around them they enjoy, and have adult friends,
older kid-friends, younger kid-friends, or no friends at all. Just whatever.
"Just whatever" doesn't fit on the American chart, except for the homeless
guys ranting on the street corners, and they're often criminals. They're
trespassing, loitering vagrants.
So here's how we cheat: Unschoolers never once ever have to "do it on their
own." They're never told "YOU SIT THERE UNTIL YOU GET IT RIGHT, MISTER!" or
"Did you have help with that project?" ("Yes" is their best answer!)
Because we turn our backs on the "earning" portion of the program, and
consider knowledge to be freely available to anyone interested in picking it
up, does that make it Marxist? I don't think so. There's an unlimited
supply of knowledge and thought. Everyone can be rich. Nobody can hoarde.
Sandra
Peggy
Sandra wrote:
really such a big jump for the marxist revolutionaries I went to college
with to now do power brokerage for the Republicans. I think the common
thread is a belief in the rights of the powerful to control. And so the
schools sort and socialize and ingrain that belief into our children
until they bow and scrape and kowtow to the those who wield that power.
Learning one's place is the real lesson.
Unschoolers don't know their place. ;)
Peggy
> The reason they can't "cheat" is that grading is competitive.I've been thinking of this too and trying to work it out. Why it isn't
>
> The reason grades are important is it proves you "earned"
> something--they're
> paying you for your cooperation and time sacrificed, and tasks performed,
> and
> hoops jumped.
>
> It's not about learning the material. It's about the combination of
> memorization, performance, humility, punctuality/attendance, payment-making
> (finances cannot be forgotten in education!) and turning the other cheek.
>
> So high school is to prepare you for that. So mid-school/jr. high prepares
> you for *that,* and on down to pre-school.
>
> Meanwhile, off the track entirely, are unschoolers. Their goal isn't "to
> earn" or to compete. Their goal is to learn.
>
really such a big jump for the marxist revolutionaries I went to college
with to now do power brokerage for the Republicans. I think the common
thread is a belief in the rights of the powerful to control. And so the
schools sort and socialize and ingrain that belief into our children
until they bow and scrape and kowtow to the those who wield that power.
Learning one's place is the real lesson.
Unschoolers don't know their place. ;)
Peggy
Sharon Rudd
> Unschoolers don't know their place. ;)Yes, we do. It's those others who don't RECOGNIZE our
place. We're here, we know where we are. They just
can't find us. We aren't in their reality.
Sharon of the Swamp
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In a message dated 1/29/2002 5:28:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I like that.
kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Because we turn our backs on the "earning" portion of the programEARNING vs. LEARNING.
I like that.
kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]