organicsis

Z (8) has always been a fairly regular sleeper, averaging 11 hours a night for several years. Since we've been unschooling (over a year) he usually goes to bed when I go to bed (around 10) and wakes up around 9a.

Lately though he's been testing his own limits, staying up as late as possible (after 4am) and sleeping in. At first I was cool with this, even happy that he was trying to listen to his body and learn his bodies limits now rather than later. Except that hasn't been happening. When he stays up late, he doesn't sleep in long enough to make up the difference. I've tried keeping the shades drawn, the house quiet etc but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I've also tried suggesting he do something more relaxing when he first wakes up but that doesn't usually happen.

When he doesn't get enough sleep it's as if the world is falling down around him. It aggravates his (depression/pessimism/whatever it is mentioned in the other post), he becomes more sensitive to the way things feel (like clothing or tags), he's cranky and snappy with me or DH or the dogs, he's prone to break down in tears over something (like if he can't get something to work the exact way he wants it to). It's just a mess.

So I've tried several things....at first I tried waiting it out, expecting him to see how the lack of sleep was making him feel. Then I tried discussing what I see, how sleep deprivation affects the body, the common signs and signals of needing more sleep. I've even tried not hiding my frustration in hopes of showing him how it affects the rest of the household. No luck. He insists he's not tired, that he's getting enough sleep, etc. The other thing is when he has gone several days like this, he gets louder. Then he's bothering DH who goes to bed at 8p and gets up at 3:30am. (However, the noise level is only occasionally an issue; usually the issue is his mood/demeanor the next day.)

Once we were able to have an open talk about it and he mentioned that he thought 10p was a good time for him to go to bed and said if we both went to bed and read, then he'd be happy with that. But when it came time to do so, the answer was "I don't want to; I want to watch/play this." in which case I'm stuck. Thursday night he picked a bedtime (to be able to wake early enough to do charity work he wanted to do with his Gramma Friday morning) and I needed to remind him of it repeatedly. Last night he also needed to go to bed early to be able to wake in time to do something with his other Grandma today. However last night he used these as examples of how I'm "treating him like a child" by making him go to bed before he wants to.

Because he gets hyper or sensitive with lack of sleep instead of tired, he says "I don't feel tired." With him not interpreting his bodies signals well, I'm wondering how much more reasoning I can do with him. I do not like taking control of this issue but it's so badly affecting the harmony in the house, that I'm ready to draw the line. DH and I are frustrated with dealing with a crabby child and getting our head bitten off all day.

Any words of wisdom on how to work this out and bring our household back in harmony? If I should step back, how should I deal with his affected mood? And if I should draw the line, how exactly do I do that in a peaceful way that doesn't make me look like a controlling parent? Is there another option I'm not seeing?

Thanks all for advice in this very sticky situation.

Tara
Our Unschooling Blog:
http://heartschooling.blogspot.com
Worried about the environment?
http://SustainableSundays.blogspot.com
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Sandra Dodd

-=-Once we were able to have an open talk about it and he mentioned
that he thought 10p was a good time for him to go to bed and said if
we both went to bed and read, then he'd be happy with that. But when
it came time to do so, the answer was "I don't want to; I want to
watch/play this." in which case I'm stuck. -=-

A monster has been created, and not by me, about things I used to say
about my kids going to sleep when they wanted to.

You shouldn't feel stuck. Here's how I would handle it.
First priority, your husband's peaceful sleep. No one gets to
disturb that (infants, maybe). Moms for short periods when all the
kids are asleep, occasionally. <g>

Second, health and peace in the house. Sleep is a big part of health
and peace and people in the family need to get, must get, enough
sleep. "Enough" varies, but "not enough" tends to show.

-=-Thursday night he picked a bedtime (to be able to wake early
enough to do charity work he wanted to do with his Gramma Friday
morning) and I needed to remind him of it repeatedly. -=-

I would've helped set his bed up, made sure others in the family were
prepared to take their noise elsewhere, and helped him be ready for
bed earlier than the stated time, help him set his alarm, tell him
quietly that it's only seven or eight hours until then, and set him
up to read or listen to music or whatever helps.

-=-However last night he used these as examples of how I'm "treating
him like a child" by making him go to bed before he wants to.-=-

And how is he treating you and his dad? Like a noisy burglar
sometimes and like an invading grump sometimes? Like a deal-
breaking nuisance?

If he's too young to be quiet when others are asleep and too young to
arrange to get enough sleep, then he's too young to make decisions
about when to sleep.

I'm guessing maybe you had rules before you were unschooling, and
he's seeing what it feels like to not-follow the rules. I think he's
probably living in a reactionary mode.

You said lately this, and you've tried that, but how long are you
talking--weeks? months?

-=-It aggravates his (depression/pessimism/whatever it is mentioned
in the other post), he becomes more sensitive to the way things feel
(like clothing or tags), he's cranky and snappy with me or DH or the
dogs, he's prone to break down in tears over something (like if he
can't get something to work the exact way he wants it to). -=-

Not depression/pessimism. Affecting his mood. Affecting his emotions.

Pressure and shame won't help. Let us know more and maybe we can
help you with some ways to disengage in some ways that might help.
But in the meantime, if it were me, I would say that the staying up
late is wholly contingent on his being quiet and kind and sweet and
peaceful, day and night. And if he's staying up past the time he's
really sleepy, then he's not keeping his deal either. On the other
hand, if he's been told when to go to bed for all the years up to
now, he might not know what sleepy's really like. If it's only been
days or weeks, that might be the deal.

Sandra

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon Foust

I've struggled with depression over the last 20 years and not sleeping enough ALWAYS adds to it. Another sign of clinical depression is insomnia -- could this be what he is struggling with? When this happens to me I feel like I can neither go to sleep or wake up -- it's a weird, very debilitating, state to be in - and it's a vicious cycle because nothing is enjoyable because you don't have the energy to enjoy or do it, and that affects the mind and outlook and anxiety levels. I would say right now his body chemistry is way out of wack and listening to his body right now would be counter productive. I agree with Sandra in getting him out of the house, change of scenery, distractions, etc. When I get to this state also it's when I KNOW that I need to make some serious diet changes, get some vitamins, or if all else fails, go to the doc for help. Here's something I've looked into before but never tried for our daughter as she somehow got better with age, but she was
never so low that she said she wished she were dead -- that is serious. Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.enaturalremedies.com/mindsoothejr-teen-childhood-depression-anxiety.htm

It's a natural remedy. Other things that add to depression/anxiety are sugar and caffeine. Hoping for the best, Shannon

organicsis <organicsis@...> wrote:
Z (8) has always been a fairly regular sleeper, averaging 11 hours a night for several years. Since we've been unschooling (over a year) he usually goes to bed when I go to bed (around 10) and wakes up around 9a.

Lately though he's been testing his own limits, staying up as late as possible (after 4am) and sleeping in. At first I was cool with this, even happy that he was trying to listen to his body and learn his bodies limits now rather than later. Except that hasn't been happening. When he stays up late, he doesn't sleep in long enough to make up the difference. I've tried keeping the shades drawn, the house quiet etc but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I've also tried suggesting he do something more relaxing when he first wakes up but that doesn't usually happen.

When he doesn't get enough sleep it's as if the world is falling down around him. It aggravates his (depression/pessimism/whatever it is mentioned in the other post), he becomes more sensitive to the way things feel (like clothing or tags), he's cranky and snappy with me or DH or the dogs, he's prone to break down in tears over something (like if he can't get something to work the exact way he wants it to). It's just a mess.

So I've tried several things....at first I tried waiting it out, expecting him to see how the lack of sleep was making him feel. Then I tried discussing what I see, how sleep deprivation affects the body, the common signs and signals of needing more sleep. I've even tried not hiding my frustration in hopes of showing him how it affects the rest of the household. No luck. He insists he's not tired, that he's getting enough sleep, etc. The other thing is when he has gone several days like this, he gets louder. Then he's bothering DH who goes to bed at 8p and gets up at 3:30am. (However, the noise level is only occasionally an issue; usually the issue is his mood/demeanor the next day.)

Once we were able to have an open talk about it and he mentioned that he thought 10p was a good time for him to go to bed and said if we both went to bed and read, then he'd be happy with that. But when it came time to do so, the answer was "I don't want to; I want to watch/play this." in which case I'm stuck. Thursday night he picked a bedtime (to be able to wake early enough to do charity work he wanted to do with his Gramma Friday morning) and I needed to remind him of it repeatedly. Last night he also needed to go to bed early to be able to wake in time to do something with his other Grandma today. However last night he used these as examples of how I'm "treating him like a child" by making him go to bed before he wants to.

Because he gets hyper or sensitive with lack of sleep instead of tired, he says "I don't feel tired." With him not interpreting his bodies signals well, I'm wondering how much more reasoning I can do with him. I do not like taking control of this issue but it's so badly affecting the harmony in the house, that I'm ready to draw the line. DH and I are frustrated with dealing with a crabby child and getting our head bitten off all day.

Any words of wisdom on how to work this out and bring our household back in harmony? If I should step back, how should I deal with his affected mood? And if I should draw the line, how exactly do I do that in a peaceful way that doesn't make me look like a controlling parent? Is there another option I'm not seeing?

Thanks all for advice in this very sticky situation.

Tara
Our Unschooling Blog:
http://heartschooling.blogspot.com
Worried about the environment?
http://SustainableSundays.blogspot.com
Worried about the economy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0EZeNulOz9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnijgIbm1qc

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Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
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Shannon Foust

This is good stuff. Another thought is when I am in an overwhelmed state (that has lasted days, weeks, or months) I also pick 10p as a bedtime for myself because I know that after that I get REALLY overwhelmed. Often at 10 I don't FEEL like going to bed, but I know that it is best for me during these times. It may just be something he has to do (for himself), for the long-term affect. Maybe you can encourage him to help him understand that need that his body has (1/2 of us that live here have that need - to go to bed early or suffer with anxiety and feelings of being overwhelmed, the other 1/2 can stay up all night long and be kind and sweet and not suffer for it -- everyone is made different). Sandra had a lot of good points too. Kids often don't listen to their bodies or don't know what they are listening for -- you can help him see things like "when you cry easily, it means you're tired" or "when you don't enjoy being around people it means you need to go to bed a
little earlier" -- not as a punishment obviously, but just as that's what his body may need. It may be a fun time to learn more about brain chemicals and function with him if he wants. Shannon

Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote: -=-Once we were able to have an open talk about it and he mentioned
that he thought 10p was a good time for him to go to bed and said if
we both went to bed and read, then he'd be happy with that. But when
it came time to do so, the answer was "I don't want to; I want to
watch/play this." in which case I'm stuck. -=-

A monster has been created, and not by me, about things I used to say
about my kids going to sleep when they wanted to.

You shouldn't feel stuck. Here's how I would handle it.
First priority, your husband's peaceful sleep. No one gets to
disturb that (infants, maybe). Moms for short periods when all the
kids are asleep, occasionally. <g>

Second, health and peace in the house. Sleep is a big part of health
and peace and people in the family need to get, must get, enough
sleep. "Enough" varies, but "not enough" tends to show.

-=-Thursday night he picked a bedtime (to be able to wake early
enough to do charity work he wanted to do with his Gramma Friday
morning) and I needed to remind him of it repeatedly. -=-

I would've helped set his bed up, made sure others in the family were
prepared to take their noise elsewhere, and helped him be ready for
bed earlier than the stated time, help him set his alarm, tell him
quietly that it's only seven or eight hours until then, and set him
up to read or listen to music or whatever helps.

-=-However last night he used these as examples of how I'm "treating
him like a child" by making him go to bed before he wants to.-=-

And how is he treating you and his dad? Like a noisy burglar
sometimes and like an invading grump sometimes? Like a deal-
breaking nuisance?

If he's too young to be quiet when others are asleep and too young to
arrange to get enough sleep, then he's too young to make decisions
about when to sleep.

I'm guessing maybe you had rules before you were unschooling, and
he's seeing what it feels like to not-follow the rules. I think he's
probably living in a reactionary mode.

You said lately this, and you've tried that, but how long are you
talking--weeks? months?

-=-It aggravates his (depression/pessimism/whatever it is mentioned
in the other post), he becomes more sensitive to the way things feel
(like clothing or tags), he's cranky and snappy with me or DH or the
dogs, he's prone to break down in tears over something (like if he
can't get something to work the exact way he wants it to). -=-

Not depression/pessimism. Affecting his mood. Affecting his emotions.

Pressure and shame won't help. Let us know more and maybe we can
help you with some ways to disengage in some ways that might help.
But in the meantime, if it were me, I would say that the staying up
late is wholly contingent on his being quiet and kind and sweet and
peaceful, day and night. And if he's staying up past the time he's
really sleepy, then he's not keeping his deal either. On the other
hand, if he's been told when to go to bed for all the years up to
now, he might not know what sleepy's really like. If it's only been
days or weeks, that might be the deal.

Sandra

Sandra

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Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841






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Tara

>
> I would've helped set his bed up, made sure others in the family
were prepared to take their noise elsewhere, and helped him be ready
for bed earlier than the stated time, help him set his alarm, tell
him quietly that it's only seven or eight hours until then, and set
him up to read or listen to music or whatever helps.
>

I did help as much as possible. But the problem came when it was time
to actually go to bed. The reason I'm feeling stuck is I don't know
exactly how to handle it; what to say/do that minimizes the
negativity from him. I mean, I know how to be controlling (like I
used to be) and I know how to be supportive of his choices (like I am
now) but how to I find that middle ground in my words and actions.
I'm lacking in practicality.


> -=-However last night he used these as examples of how
I'm "treating
> him like a child" by making him go to bed before he wants to.-=-
>
> And how is he treating you and his dad? Like a noisy burglar
> sometimes and like an invading grump sometimes? Like a deal-
> breaking nuisance?
>

Um, yeah pretty much.


> If he's too young to be quiet when others are asleep and too young
to
> arrange to get enough sleep, then he's too young to make decisions
> about when to sleep.
>
> I'm guessing maybe you had rules before you were unschooling, and
> he's seeing what it feels like to not-follow the rules. I think
he's
> probably living in a reactionary mode.
>
> You said lately this, and you've tried that, but how long are you
> talking--weeks? months?
>


Reactionary mode fits perfectly. He knows very much he's unschooling
and somehow decided that means he makes all his own choices. We did
have rules before on bedtimes because his school started at 8am.
Occasionally we would allow him to stay up late for parties or during
the summer time but not much during the year as it would mess up his
sleep schedule for school. So he's tested his personal limits before.
But before he was usually the kind of kid that would ask to go to bed
or fall asleep during the fireworks on the 4th of July.

We stopped the mandatory bedtimes almost a year ago. He had some fun
staying up but has always been such a good sleeper and would choose
to go to bed on his own. This current situation has been off and on
for a couple of months (since sometime in January). It's "on"
whenever I don't intervene. But when I do intervene, it causes so
much stress between the two of us, so I think maybe I'm not handling
it very well.

I'm not sure what the deal is. He did say something the other day
along the lines of "Unschooled kids don't have a bedtime." So maybe
he feels like he needs to stay up and push himself past what he
normally would...to be cool maybe? To differentiate between himself
and others who go to bed earlier or go to school? I'm not sure on
this one. But it would make sense as to why he doesn't seem to see
his exhaustion. Maybe he's refusing to see it?

My biggest problem is when I do intervene, he gets really upset.
That's when he says I'm treating him like a child, or he'll say I'm
not 'giving him any respect' or allowing him to make his own choices.
It's not as if I'm going Clock-Nazi on him and demanding he be in bed
at 8pm on the dot. I think at least, I'm handling it nicely,
explaining what I see and explaining how its affecting others and
that that is why I'm intervening. But he normally interjects with "I
won't stay up as late, I'll be in a better mood tomorrow" etc and
then when I stick to a bedtime, he says I don't trust him. And then
I'm feeling stuck, unsure of how to explain it to him as not being
about trust but being about facts. And if I don't explain it to him
he gets very upset. He likes to know exactly what is happening, and
why so not explaining things to him is interpretted like 'cuz I said
so' and doesn't carry very far over here. But explaining it just gets
more arguments!



> -=-It aggravates his (depression/pessimism/whatever it is
mentioned
> in the other post), he becomes more sensitive to the way things
feel
> (like clothing or tags), he's cranky and snappy with me or DH or
the
> dogs, he's prone to break down in tears over something (like if he
> can't get something to work the exact way he wants it to). -=-
>
> Not depression/pessimism. Affecting his mood. Affecting his
emotions.

Oh I just meant that as in he deals with depression/pessimistic
emotions often already and it's worse when he's tired.

You mentioned deal breakers and that is another frustrating thing we
deal with quite often; his agreeing to something in advance but
wanting to back out last minute even if it leaves a friend or family
member hanging. I've always just insisted he keep his promises but
the constant fight is really getting to me.


~ Tara

Sandra Dodd

-=-He knows very much he's unschooling
and somehow decided that means he makes all his own choices. -=-



He didn't "somehow decide" that on his own.

So if you're going kind of cold turkey, it's going to take a while
for things to balance out. It would've been better and smoother to
just gradually extend his range by saying "okay, another half hour"
and that for a while, until you built up to more and more leeway.

-=-So he's tested his personal limits before. But before he was
usually the kind of kid that would ask to go to bed or fall asleep
during the fireworks on the 4th of July. -=-

He was younger, too.

-=-This current situation has been off and on for a couple of months
(since sometime in January). It's "on" whenever I don't intervene.
But when I do intervene, it causes so much stress between the two of
us, so I think maybe I'm not handling it very well.-=-

It's sounds adversarial. It sounds like you had an adversarial
relationship before, and it's continuing.

-=-But it would make sense as to why he doesn't seem to see his
exhaustion. Maybe he's refusing to see it?-=-

"Refusing to see it" is antagonistic. It implies dishonesty.

-=-. And then I'm feeling stuck, unsure of how to explain it to him
as not being about trust but being about facts. -=-

A WHOLE lot of "fact" isn't fact. Go easy on that.

-=-He likes to know exactly what is happening, and

why so not explaining things to him is interpretted like 'cuz I said
so' and doesn't carry very far over here. But explaining it just gets
more arguments!-=-

You're describing inconsistencies, though. He doesn't know what's
happening, except that it's going to change. If you're going back
and forth, he's probably staying up as much as possible for precisely
that reason. He doesn't trust you to be consistent.

-=-I've always just insisted he keep his promises but the constant
fight is really getting to me.-=-

He's too young to make a contract.

There are several problems with the statement "I've always just
insisted he keep his promises."

"Always" is a problem. It's rules instead of principles.

"Just" is a problem. "Just" as opposed to what? "Simply" you mean?
Without thought or consideration of factors?

"Insisted" is a nicer word for "demanded" and "forced him to" sometimes.

And "his promises..." If a mom says "Take out the garbage, okay?"
and the kid says "okay," that's not "a promise."

I was away from the house for a few hours and then slept a long nap,
so I hope there are brilliant answers already on the list.

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara

> He didn't "somehow decide" that on his own.
>
> So if you're going kind of cold turkey, it's going to take a while
> for things to balance out. It would've been better and smoother
to
> just gradually extend his range by saying "okay, another half
hour"
> and that for a while, until you built up to more and more leeway.
>

Yay. I wish I had read that a year ago. But what I mean by "somehow"
is that I never explicitly said "you make all your own choices". At
least I don't remember doing that! Crap, I hope I didn't.


>
> It's sounds adversarial. It sounds like you had an adversarial
> relationship before, and it's continuing.

Yeah I know it sounds adversarial. It feels that way too. Like I
said, I'm lacking in the practical application department. That's why
I'm here! :]


>
> You're describing inconsistencies, though. He doesn't know what's
> happening, except that it's going to change. If you're going back
> and forth, he's probably staying up as much as possible for
precisely
> that reason. He doesn't trust you to be consistent.
>

Good point. But do I consistently put him to bed against his will?
I'm inconsistent cuz I have no idea how to handle this and am trying
different things.


> -=-I've always just insisted he keep his promises but the constant
> fight is really getting to me.-=-
>
> He's too young to make a contract.
>
> There are several problems with the statement "I've always just
> insisted he keep his promises."
>
> "Always" is a problem. It's rules instead of principles.
>
> "Just" is a problem. "Just" as opposed to what? "Simply" you
mean?
> Without thought or consideration of factors?
>
> "Insisted" is a nicer word for "demanded" and "forced him to"
sometimes.

Yeah I see what you mean. But when he told someone he would do
something, I don't feel right letting him renig 5 minutes before he's
suppose to do it. So what is a better way to handle this?


>
> And "his promises..." If a mom says "Take out the garbage, okay?"
> and the kid says "okay," that's not "a promise."
>

No, that's not the kind of thing I mean at all. Usually it's his
saying he wants to go somewhere or do something with someone but then
backs out. He's done it with me, my friends, grandparents. Usually
by "insisting" it means I'm saying "It's too late to change your mind
now since we're about to walk out the door and you can't stay home
alone/grandma is already on her way over to pick you up and will be
here in a few minutes". These have happened numerous times, even when
he's given opportunities prior to change his mind (I remind him of
commitments a day before or a certain amount of time before and ask
if it's "still on").

So I now this isn't being handled well. But how do I handle it better?

~ Tara

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 22, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Tara wrote:

> Good point. But do I consistently put him to bed against his will?
> I'm inconsistent cuz I have no idea how to handle this and am trying
> different things.

What if your husband was staying up late, not getting enough sleep,
getting emotionally depleted? How would you handle that?

What if you were traveling with a friend and she did that - stayed up
too late every night, got up early, and started to be super cranky due
to sleep deprivation?

It can help to think about what you could possible do in situations
like the above.

It will help you if you learn to talk with him - realistically and not
with YOU lecturing/explaining things to him, but in a true
conversation, I think.

You'd start with, "So you're staying up really late. How is that going
for you?" You're on the same team - you're NOT adversaries, don't act
like it. Ask HIM how he's feeling - but not with an ulterior motive on
your part. No lecturing, just talking together. After you listen a
while, you might add, "Well, from my point of view, seems like you
need a little more sleep."

Conversation - he talks, you listen and offer to help him to whatever
extent he wants help.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "Tara" <organicsis@...> wrote:

>Usually it's his
saying he wants to go somewhere or do something with someone but then
backs out. He's done it with me, my friends, grandparents. Usually
by "insisting" it means I'm saying "It's too late to change your mind
now since we're about to walk out the door and you can't stay home
alone/grandma is already on her way over to pick you up and will be
here in a few minutes". These have happened numerous times, even when
he's given opportunities prior to change his mind (I remind him of
commitments a day before or a certain amount of time before and ask
if it's "still on").>

It seems to me like it might be more useful to stop planning things that take a prior
commitment for awhile. He might need a little more spontaneity. You can have the plan,
or a choice of plans even, and then see if he wants to do it but be open to a "no." Maybe
he really does want to see himself as the kid that is doing all those things, but when it
comes right down to it he can't, doesn't want to or just really doesn't want to stop what
he's doing. He could be agreeing to please you. ?

Think of yourself as creating a partnership with your son. See your son as whole and
healthy and desirous of being in a state of rest and vibrancy but maybe just not knowing
at this moment how to get there on his own. If he's not able to make certain decisions for
himself yet (like reading his tired signals), then you can be the part of the team that can
make that decision and explain it to the other half--it's not him or you--it's both of you
working together to make a healthy and happy child. This is the moment when his bed is
made, the lights are low, the music is on (or whatever he has identified as aids to his
sleep). Your certainty about what he's needing at that moment (sleep), combined with the
quality of the connection and trust you have with him will determine what will happen
next.

(Often my son, the nightowl, will ask me earlier in the day for help going to bed that night
because when he's tired he has a hard time separating from his activities but knows he
needs sleep.)

Perhaps you've had a conversation earlier that day that you can refer back to. Like this: "I
know that you will be able to get the right amount of rest you need in the future, but right
now I see you ignoring your tiredness. How can I help you get the sleep you need?" Ask
him for suggestions. Help him see what his tiredness looks like--he may not really know.

When I stopped seeing my daughter as adversarial it changed the world for us. There are
some areas in which she still has a hard time reading her body signals, although I see
shifts happening rapidly as she progresses further into being a 9yo. We have developed a
sweet and trusting balance where the focus is on well being and learning and finding
balance. It is not me drowning out her inner voice with rules, but helping her to read her
own body signals. It's like a drawing out of what's developing in her. Sometimes she is
very cranky with me, but I don't take it personally--she is expressing frustration with her
limitations, but it's o.k. We don't always sound like a happy harmonious partnership on
the outside, but it actually feels really peaceful on the inside because there is much more
clarity and love in the relationship. Our connection has grown deeper now that we aren't
on the continuum of me in charge or her in charge--we are working together. (And it
often does sound very harmonious too :-))

Joanna

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> He's too young to make a contract.

Would you mind to clarify this for me?

In a post on March 4 you said, "When Kirby was two and woke up and
wasn't at all sleepy and I was too
sleepy to stay up with him because I was pregnant, I would put him in
the high chair in front of a six-hour video of Disney movies or
Warner Brothers cartoons. I'd give him food, drink, a little pillow,
a baby blanket, and go back to bed. In the morning he would be
asleep on the tray with the pillow. That happened many times. But
he wasn't running around the house making noise. We made a deal and
he kept it, knowing the alternative was being in the bed. "

How is that different from the original poster and her 8 year-old son?

Ria

Sandra Dodd

This is the kind of writing that changes lives:

-=-When I stopped seeing my daughter as adversarial it changed the
world for us. There are
some areas in which she still has a hard time reading her body
signals, although I see
shifts happening rapidly as she progresses further into being a 9yo.
We have developed a
sweet and trusting balance where the focus is on well being and
learning and finding
balance. It is not me drowning out her inner voice with rules, but
helping her to read her
own body signals. It's like a drawing out of what's developing in
her. Sometimes she is
very cranky with me, but I don't take it personally--she is
expressing frustration with her
limitations, but it's o.k. We don't always sound like a happy
harmonious partnership on
the outside, but it actually feels really peaceful on the inside
because there is much more
clarity and love in the relationship. Our connection has grown deeper
now that we aren't
on the continuum of me in charge or her in charge--we are working
together. (And it
often does sound very harmonious too :-))

-=-Joanna-=-

==================================

I've put that on the page about change

http://sandradodd.com/change

and the first line on the random quotes generator at

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

Beautiful, Joanna. Thank you.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

<<I also pick 10p as a bedtime for myself because I know that after that I
get REALLY overwhelmed. >>



Same here. I generally feel myself melting down by 8:30pm. I do attempt to
go to bed by 10pm, but usually Khalid (5), and Khidar (almost 3) want to
stay up and play, and want water, and something to eat. Then Khidar may
need a pullup changed...I end up getting in bed around midnight, to get up
at 6am. On a good night I'm in bed and sleep by 11:30pm





be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys



"We have the need to be accepted and to be loved by others, but we cannot
accept and love ourselves. The more self-love we have, the less we will
experience self-abuse. Self-abuse comes from self-rejection, and
self-rejection comes from having an image of what it means to be perfect and
never measuring up to that ideal. Our image of perfection is the reason we
reject ourselves the way we are, and why we don't accept others the way they
are."

~ Don Miguel Ruiz





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Maisha and others who work during the day ---

Do you get a lunch break at work? I used to go to my car and put in
earplugs and put the seat back as far as I could and take a 40 minute
nap. Even when I didn't sleep, it made a HUGE difference in the rest
of my day/evening. But, after a while, I'd trained myself to go to
sleep very quickly.

I would just eat a quick sandwich or something else I brought from
home, for my lunch. I needed the sleep more than the time for eating.

This is a perfectly healthy way to live - get up early, take a nap in
the middle of the day, stay up later at night. I've read all kinds of
studies about napping (I have RLS - a neurological sleep disorder that
often keeps me from getting to sleep) and, recently, there have been
more and more that show that night sleep isn't negatively impacted by
short afternoon naps. People who take short afternoon naps sleep
better at night, even when they get fewer hours of sleep at night,
they feel more refreshed throughout the day and evening.

Those who don't "nap" often think they can't. But if you just do it,
just totally relax and rest for half-hour to 40 minutes, after a while
your body starts to let consciousness go more and more quickly and you
find you can fall asleep in a few minutes and wake up feeling good.


-pam


On Mar 24, 2008, at 4:29 AM, Maisha Khalfani wrote:

> On a good night I'm in bed and sleep by 11:30pm



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> I'm not sure what the deal is. He did say something the other day
> along the lines of "Unschooled kids don't have a bedtime."



All kids have bedtimes, it happens naturally when they feel tired and
fall asleep, or when a parent tells them to.


> My biggest problem is when I do intervene, he gets really upset.
> That's when he says I'm treating him like a child, or he'll say I'm
> not 'giving him any respect' or allowing him to make his own choices.


Would it work for you to inform him that his decision impact you and dad
in a disrespectful way? Respect really does work both ways. Perhaps he
hasn't a clue what real respect looks and feels like. That may take
time but you can point it out when he is acting disrespectfully towards
another person.


> You mentioned deal breakers and that is another frustrating thing we
> deal with quite often; his agreeing to something in advance but
> wanting to back out last minute even if it leaves a friend or family
> member hanging. I've always just insisted he keep his promises but
> the constant fight is really getting to me.
>


I would stop making plans that involve early morning time frames. Set
tentative dates with others, letting them know in advance that you might
need to back out last minute and ask when the last chance time would be
for their convenience. Stick to it. If a deal gets broken with a
particular friend, don't make any more plans with that person. If your
son starts seeing that he's not doing anything with anyone, you can tell
him why. You can let him know that plans can resume when you see that
he can keep a date without backing out last minute and hurting someone's
feelings.

When it becomes important enough for him, he will keep his promises. I
can almost gaurantee it, barring the occasional last minute cancelation
for other reasons, such as "I don't feel good".

Jenny C

Usually
> by "insisting" it means I'm saying "It's too late to change your mind
> now since we're about to walk out the door and you can't stay home
> alone/grandma is already on her way over to pick you up and will be
> here in a few minutes".



I know I wrote something a little differently a minute ago, but it
occured to me that you don't have to tell him in advance. Have grandma
show up as a surprise. Then if he wants to go and get dressed and get
ready and go do something he can, or he can hang out with grandma at his
house for a while, or a little bit of both. Let grandma know in advance
what you intend to do, but don't tell him. That way he doesn't have to
decide in advance, it could be a cool in the moment decision.

wisdomalways5

perhaps starting the routine before 10pm would help- say at nine you
start eating and drinking and potty and teeth and books and maybe
they could be more ready to sleep-

I know if I tell my girls who are 5 and 3 that they can finish their
movie while I lay in bed that very shortly they feel lonely and come
to join me-

Julie


--- In [email protected], "Maisha Khalfani"
<maitai373@...> wrote:
>
> <<I also pick 10p as a bedtime for myself because I know that
after that I
> get REALLY overwhelmed. >>
>
>
>
> Same here. I generally feel myself melting down by 8:30pm. I do
attempt to
> go to bed by 10pm, but usually Khalid (5), and Khidar (almost 3)
want to
> stay up and play, and want water, and something to eat. Then
Khidar may
> need a pullup changed...I end up getting in bed around midnight,
to get up
> at 6am. On a good night I'm in bed and sleep by 11:30pm
>
>
>
>
>
> be at peace,
>
> Maisha
>
> <http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family
Adventures
>
> <http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys
>
>
>
> "We have the need to be accepted and to be loved by others, but we
cannot
> accept and love ourselves. The more self-love we have, the less we
will
> experience self-abuse. Self-abuse comes from self-rejection, and
> self-rejection comes from having an image of what it means to be
perfect and
> never measuring up to that ideal. Our image of perfection is the
reason we
> reject ourselves the way we are, and why we don't accept others
the way they
> are."
>
> ~ Don Miguel Ruiz
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~I know I wrote something a little differently a minute ago, but it
> occured to me that you don't have to tell him in advance. Have
grandma show up as a surprise. Then if he wants to go and get dressed
and get ready and go do something he can, or he can hang out with
grandma at his house for a while, or a little bit of both. Let
grandma know in advance what you intend to do, but don't tell him.
That way he doesn't have to decide in advance, it could be a cool in
the moment decision.~~

Maybe this would be ok with some children, but mine would not be cool
with this scenario especially if *I* knew ahead of time and kept that
information from them. Maybe I'm missing some piece of information
from this thread but I'm not sure how keeping information from a child
would help. I know that too far ahead can be difficult for some kids,
but to totally keep it from them?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joanna Murphy

I think it would depend a lot on the temperment of the individual child. I have one that
would not like this, but one who loves spontaneity, and if knowing in advance causes
stress, then I might ask that child if, hypothetically, she would like a surprise like that in
the future. She could have a whole conversation about the possibility, so it's only keeping
information in the same sense that they don't know what their Xmas presents are until
Xmas.

Joanna

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>

> Maybe this would be ok with some children, but mine would not be cool
> with this scenario especially if *I* knew ahead of time and kept that
> information from them. Maybe I'm missing some piece of information
> from this thread but I'm not sure how keeping information from a child
> would help. I know that too far ahead can be difficult for some kids,
> but to totally keep it from them?
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Jenny C

>
> Maybe this would be ok with some children, but mine would not be cool
> with this scenario especially if *I* knew ahead of time and kept that
> information from them. Maybe I'm missing some piece of information
> from this thread but I'm not sure how keeping information from a child
> would help. I know that too far ahead can be difficult for some kids,
> but to totally keep it from them?
>


I think it really depends on the individual. Some kids really like
surprises and can change directions really fast to be spontaneous. I'm
thinking that if my child really was struggling with keeping commitments
but also really liked hanging with grandma, then a surprise might be
cool. Some kids can handle all the information about the where when how
why, of a social engagement, but some kids like to NOT think about that
and just do.

My youngest daughter would do well with surprises, especially if they
were surprises that involved grandma without big ideas surrounding the
visit.

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:


but some kids like to NOT think about that
and just do.>
>

This just reminded me of a huge problem I got into with my son when he was about 3. It was
my first foray into respectful parenting, and I was faithfully trying to apply all the rules. <g>
The rules said to involve him in decision making, so I did. I drove him absolutely crazy!!! I
was applying a rule, whether it fit or not. My son did not, and still DOES NOT want to make
many decisions. The important ones, absolutely, but everything else is left, gratefully, to me.
He really mostly wants life to flow around him and carry him along. He doesn't care what he
wears as long as it's clothes, he doesn't care what he eats, as long as he didn't have to make
it, etc. Gee, come to think of it, kinda' like Dad!

My daughter--exact opposite. I can't really ask her enough questions, and any presumption
on my part can land me in a heap of trouble.

Joanna