collateral punishment
Sandra Dodd
I have this from e-mail and agreed to post it to the list for the
writer:
writer:
On Mar 21, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> We're former friends because her deprivations were affecting Holly,
> who was
> hanging around with her daughter. They'd have a plan to go do
> something, and it would be cancelled RIGHT at the last minute because
> Sierra hadn't cleaned a toilet or something. It pissed me off.
>
I'd like to hear more about this subject as our family has had
similar experiences. The other parent punishes their child by
canceling an activity or play date with my child effectively
punishing him right along with her son - often at the very last minute.
I'm assuming that when you ended the friendship, Holly was on board
with not maintaining her friendship with the daughter. But how do
you handle it when your child really wants to maintain the friendship
with the other child? I've talked to my son a lot about it and tried
to prepare him for the possibility that the agreed upon plans might
not happen, but that just feels like a yucky way to be in a
friendship, always on pins and needles. Although my son is prepared,
there's still an anxiety in him that his friend is going to make a
wrong move and "bamm" the play date is over or a future event is
cancelled. I've talked with the mother, but she just thinks she has
to do what's right for her family regardless of the collateral
damage. Personally, I would be fine with ending the whole friendship
as you did, but with respect for my son, I'm wanting to see some
other options.
Thanks for any thoughts on how you or others have handled these type
of situations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Holly was pretty cranky too, and asked me to talk to the mom (about
that and other things). One day when Holly was cancelled out on
about the toilet (the prime example), I said "If Holly comes over and
cleans the toilet, then can they go?"
The answer was something like "No, I don't want Holly to clean the
toilet, I want Sierra to do what I tell her to do."
So it wasn't about the toilet being clean. It was about a mom who
liked to put a reward out on a string and then yank it back.
And that day, the mom told the daughter while she was asleep to clean
the toilet or she couldn't go. Eight hours passed. The mom works on
the computer and is on IM all day. The daughter has a phone, e-mail,
myspace. The mom could've asked or reminded her. The daughter had
fallen back to sleep and forgotten about the request, if she ever
really heard it.
But Holly was deprived of something she wanted to do. I said that
wasn't fair to Holly, and the other mom said that's what she gets for
having a friend who doesn't listen to her mom. So it was clarified
for me that Holly DID deserve to be punished, for not picking better
friends.
There was another family when Holly was four, five, six--across the
street--who did the same thing a lot. If the daughter did something
they didn't like while Holly was over, they'd say "Holly has to go
home now." They punished her by removing Holly, as though Holly were
an inanimate object.
Sandra
Joanna Murphy
I'm sorry to say that we've had the same thing happen. In our case the friend is an
extremely go with the flow kind of person, and my son is very not. When it happens, it is
usually at the last minute. His parents, for some reason, think it's a little unreasonable for
my son to be so upset. It has been difficult, and the only solution we've found is to limit
playdates and to have an attitude that if we see him it will happen, and if we don't then it
won't. It's not easy, but my son really likes his friend, so he's willing to take the chances.
This is a good example for the people that think we need to toughen our kids up and
prepare them for the real world. Disappointment happens without us going out of our
way to devise it.
Joanna
extremely go with the flow kind of person, and my son is very not. When it happens, it is
usually at the last minute. His parents, for some reason, think it's a little unreasonable for
my son to be so upset. It has been difficult, and the only solution we've found is to limit
playdates and to have an attitude that if we see him it will happen, and if we don't then it
won't. It's not easy, but my son really likes his friend, so he's willing to take the chances.
This is a good example for the people that think we need to toughen our kids up and
prepare them for the real world. Disappointment happens without us going out of our
way to devise it.
Joanna
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I have this from e-mail and agreed to post it to the list for the
> writer:
>
> On Mar 21, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > We're former friends because her deprivations were affecting Holly,
> > who was
> > hanging around with her daughter. They'd have a plan to go do
> > something, and it would be cancelled RIGHT at the last minute because
> > Sierra hadn't cleaned a toilet or something. It pissed me off.
> >
>
> I'd like to hear more about this subject as our family has had
> similar experiences. The other parent punishes their child by
> canceling an activity or play date with my child effectively
> punishing him right along with her son - often at the very last minute.
>
> I'm assuming that when you ended the friendship, Holly was on board
> with not maintaining her friendship with the daughter. But how do
> you handle it when your child really wants to maintain the friendship
> with the other child? I've talked to my son a lot about it and tried
> to prepare him for the possibility that the agreed upon plans might
> not happen, but that just feels like a yucky way to be in a
> friendship, always on pins and needles. Although my son is prepared,
> there's still an anxiety in him that his friend is going to make a
> wrong move and "bamm" the play date is over or a future event is
> cancelled. I've talked with the mother, but she just thinks she has
> to do what's right for her family regardless of the collateral
> damage. Personally, I would be fine with ending the whole friendship
> as you did, but with respect for my son, I'm wanting to see some
> other options.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts on how you or others have handled these type
> of situations.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> -----
>
> Holly was pretty cranky too, and asked me to talk to the mom (about
> that and other things). One day when Holly was cancelled out on
> about the toilet (the prime example), I said "If Holly comes over and
> cleans the toilet, then can they go?"
>
> The answer was something like "No, I don't want Holly to clean the
> toilet, I want Sierra to do what I tell her to do."
>
> So it wasn't about the toilet being clean. It was about a mom who
> liked to put a reward out on a string and then yank it back.
>
> And that day, the mom told the daughter while she was asleep to clean
> the toilet or she couldn't go. Eight hours passed. The mom works on
> the computer and is on IM all day. The daughter has a phone, e-mail,
> myspace. The mom could've asked or reminded her. The daughter had
> fallen back to sleep and forgotten about the request, if she ever
> really heard it.
>
> But Holly was deprived of something she wanted to do. I said that
> wasn't fair to Holly, and the other mom said that's what she gets for
> having a friend who doesn't listen to her mom. So it was clarified
> for me that Holly DID deserve to be punished, for not picking better
> friends.
>
> There was another family when Holly was four, five, six--across the
> street--who did the same thing a lot. If the daughter did something
> they didn't like while Holly was over, they'd say "Holly has to go
> home now." They punished her by removing Holly, as though Holly were
> an inanimate object.
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-It has been difficult, and the only solution we've found is to limit
playdates and to have an attitude that if we see him it will happen,
and if we don't then it
won't. -=-
Even as an increasingly elderly adults, I really don't like it when
someone says they'll come over at some certain time and then they
don't. I was talking to Marty about it. At the age of 19, he's
already figured out an excellent way to deal with it. If someone
who's not so reliable says he'll be over, Marty says "That would be
cool," and so he has a positive response without the thought of a
binding agreement.
With Holly, we got to figuring that things might be cancelled, so the
discussions would be "If Sierra can really go, then..." and a couple
of times she had someone else invited so if Sierra couldn't go Holly
still had a plan.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
playdates and to have an attitude that if we see him it will happen,
and if we don't then it
won't. -=-
Even as an increasingly elderly adults, I really don't like it when
someone says they'll come over at some certain time and then they
don't. I was talking to Marty about it. At the age of 19, he's
already figured out an excellent way to deal with it. If someone
who's not so reliable says he'll be over, Marty says "That would be
cool," and so he has a positive response without the thought of a
binding agreement.
With Holly, we got to figuring that things might be cancelled, so the
discussions would be "If Sierra can really go, then..." and a couple
of times she had someone else invited so if Sierra couldn't go Holly
still had a plan.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
halfshadow1
The same thing is happening with my son's friend. He usually comes
over every friday to play and i call the mom to pick him
up...sometimes as late as 8:30 pm. He can't come over now. His mother
has been trying to get him to clean his room. I suggested to her that
i would probably just close his door but she said she can't even get
through it.ugh! So now both her son and my son are punished! I mean
come on...his friend is 8yo,either clean it yourself mom or shut the
door! My son said something really nice:mommy,how about if you and I
go and clean Stevens room? That's real sweet of him. The mom said she
has been trying to get him to clean his room for 3 months but now she
has a GOOD bribe! OH joy! way to go!--- In
[email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
over every friday to play and i call the mom to pick him
up...sometimes as late as 8:30 pm. He can't come over now. His mother
has been trying to get him to clean his room. I suggested to her that
i would probably just close his door but she said she can't even get
through it.ugh! So now both her son and my son are punished! I mean
come on...his friend is 8yo,either clean it yourself mom or shut the
door! My son said something really nice:mommy,how about if you and I
go and clean Stevens room? That's real sweet of him. The mom said she
has been trying to get him to clean his room for 3 months but now she
has a GOOD bribe! OH joy! way to go!--- In
[email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I have this from e-mail and agreed to post it to the list for the
> writer:
>
> On Mar 21, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > We're former friends because her deprivations were affecting Holly,
> > who was
> > hanging around with her daughter. They'd have a plan to go do
> > something, and it would be cancelled RIGHT at the last minute because
> > Sierra hadn't cleaned a toilet or something. It pissed me off.
> >
>
> I'd like to hear more about this subject as our family has had
> similar experiences. The other parent punishes their child by
> canceling an activity or play date with my child effectively
> punishing him right along with her son - often at the very last minute.
>
> I'm assuming that when you ended the friendship, Holly was on board
> with not maintaining her friendship with the daughter. But how do
> you handle it when your child really wants to maintain the friendship
> with the other child? I've talked to my son a lot about it and tried
> to prepare him for the possibility that the agreed upon plans might
> not happen, but that just feels like a yucky way to be in a
> friendship, always on pins and needles. Although my son is prepared,
> there's still an anxiety in him that his friend is going to make a
> wrong move and "bamm" the play date is over or a future event is
> cancelled. I've talked with the mother, but she just thinks she has
> to do what's right for her family regardless of the collateral
> damage. Personally, I would be fine with ending the whole friendship
> as you did, but with respect for my son, I'm wanting to see some
> other options.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts on how you or others have handled these type
> of situations.
>
> -----
>
> Holly was pretty cranky too, and asked me to talk to the mom (about
> that and other things). One day when Holly was cancelled out on
> about the toilet (the prime example), I said "If Holly comes over and
> cleans the toilet, then can they go?"
>
> The answer was something like "No, I don't want Holly to clean the
> toilet, I want Sierra to do what I tell her to do."
>
> So it wasn't about the toilet being clean. It was about a mom who
> liked to put a reward out on a string and then yank it back.
>
> And that day, the mom told the daughter while she was asleep to clean
> the toilet or she couldn't go. Eight hours passed. The mom works on
> the computer and is on IM all day. The daughter has a phone, e-mail,
> myspace. The mom could've asked or reminded her. The daughter had
> fallen back to sleep and forgotten about the request, if she ever
> really heard it.
>
> But Holly was deprived of something she wanted to do. I said that
> wasn't fair to Holly, and the other mom said that's what she gets for
> having a friend who doesn't listen to her mom. So it was clarified
> for me that Holly DID deserve to be punished, for not picking better
> friends.
>
> There was another family when Holly was four, five, six--across the
> street--who did the same thing a lot. If the daughter did something
> they didn't like while Holly was over, they'd say "Holly has to go
> home now." They punished her by removing Holly, as though Holly were
> an inanimate object.
>
> Sandra
>
Shannon Foust
I'm sure this topic has been on here a thousand times, but since I'm new here, I was wondering what some of you do about kids and cleaning house? I'm pretty laid back about it, then when the house starts to look thrashed I become "Sarge Mom" and belt out orders. I hate when that happens. Their rooms I don't really worry about - I just shut the door. I'm just looking for creative ideas for the rest of the house. Thanks!
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< My son said something really nice:mommy,how about if you and I
problem with it might be the mom then saying to Steven, "See how good (sorry
don't know halfshadow's ds' name) xxx is being. Why can't you be more like
him?" Blah blah blah.
I was that kid, "why can't you be more like Robyn". It made me and my
friends roll our eyes. I was like,"sorry mate, I can't help it" and they
were all, "mothers, what can you do". At no time did any of them take a
single word of it to heart, I'm certain.
There's something here about the value of not wasting our conversational
opportunities with our kids on bogus, futile, unexamined nonsense I guess.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> go and clean Stevens room? That's real sweet of him. >>>Did you offer to go do this? It sounds like a great idea. Although the
problem with it might be the mom then saying to Steven, "See how good (sorry
don't know halfshadow's ds' name) xxx is being. Why can't you be more like
him?" Blah blah blah.
I was that kid, "why can't you be more like Robyn". It made me and my
friends roll our eyes. I was like,"sorry mate, I can't help it" and they
were all, "mothers, what can you do". At no time did any of them take a
single word of it to heart, I'm certain.
There's something here about the value of not wasting our conversational
opportunities with our kids on bogus, futile, unexamined nonsense I guess.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
halfshadow1
I don't know what this means...could you explain it?There's something
here about the value of not wasting our conversational
opportunities with our kids on bogus, futile, unexamined nonsense I guess.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:
here about the value of not wasting our conversational
opportunities with our kids on bogus, futile, unexamined nonsense I guess.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:
>good (sorry
> <<<< My son said something really nice:mommy,how about if you and I
> > go and clean Stevens room? That's real sweet of him. >>>
>
> Did you offer to go do this? It sounds like a great idea. Although the
> problem with it might be the mom then saying to Steven, "See how
> don't know halfshadow's ds' name) xxx is being. Why can't you bemore like
> him?" Blah blah blah.they
>
> I was that kid, "why can't you be more like Robyn". It made me and my
> friends roll our eyes. I was like,"sorry mate, I can't help it" and
> were all, "mothers, what can you do". At no time did any of them take aconversational
> single word of it to heart, I'm certain.
>
> There's something here about the value of not wasting our
> opportunities with our kids on bogus, futile, unexamined nonsense Iguess.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< I don't know what this means...could you explain it?There's something
to me from my childhood, like "Why can't you be more like...." and other
things, are wasted breath and wasted trust. Too much of that kind of speech
from parents causes kids to tune them out and stop listening, just as my
friends did with their parents. The kids are collectively rolling their eyes
and shrugging their shoulders and thinking that the noise that comes out of
their parents' mouths can be largely ignored, a small nuisance they have to
put up with. That is what I meant by futile.
It's not a genuine question; my friends' moms weren't expecting their kids
to answer. "Well gosh, I guess I can't be more like Robyn because I'm me not
her, and I have my own strengths and weaknesses that are all mine not hers,
but she's still my friend despite all this unpleasant comparing going on."
It was just a round about way of being critical and unacceptant and living
in a schooly mindset (I was head of my class every year and diligent, so I
was a school success story). My friends' parents had good intentions, I dare
say. They probably wanted to inspire their daughters - but it didn't have
the intended effect.
My intention as a mindful parent is to try and speak with conciousness of
the content of my words, and also to be straightforward when what I am doing
is in the broader realm of correcting Jayn's behavior (which is not a good
way to put it, but I'm a bit tired right this moment), or alerting her to
another better choice. If I want Jayn to take what I say to heart, the onus
is on me to say things worth listening to.
This includes owning my own feelings. For example, looking back now I
suspect that this "Why can't you...." collection of phrases that came from
my and my friends' parents was an expression of their frustration. Perhaps
they had expectations that were blinding them. Perhaps (almost undoubtedly
given that we were at an expensive, private girls' school) they had a lot of
schooly expectations and ambitions for their kids to make it worth the
expense.
So if I am having feelings I *try*, and this is an ongoing journey, to name
them in plain, direct language, whether that be out loud or in my own head.
It's not just about us speaking to them. It's also about them speaking to
us, wanting to continue to have the same wonderful conversations full of
discovery and enthusiasm that we had when they were tiny when they are
grown. If one way to keep the communication real is to avoid saying the same
dopey things my mom and my friends' moms said, then that is one thing I can
do.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> here about the value of not wasting our conversationalWhat I was thinking was that these kind of remarks, that are really familiar
> opportunities with our kids on bogus, futile, unexamined nonsense I guess.
> >>>
to me from my childhood, like "Why can't you be more like...." and other
things, are wasted breath and wasted trust. Too much of that kind of speech
from parents causes kids to tune them out and stop listening, just as my
friends did with their parents. The kids are collectively rolling their eyes
and shrugging their shoulders and thinking that the noise that comes out of
their parents' mouths can be largely ignored, a small nuisance they have to
put up with. That is what I meant by futile.
It's not a genuine question; my friends' moms weren't expecting their kids
to answer. "Well gosh, I guess I can't be more like Robyn because I'm me not
her, and I have my own strengths and weaknesses that are all mine not hers,
but she's still my friend despite all this unpleasant comparing going on."
It was just a round about way of being critical and unacceptant and living
in a schooly mindset (I was head of my class every year and diligent, so I
was a school success story). My friends' parents had good intentions, I dare
say. They probably wanted to inspire their daughters - but it didn't have
the intended effect.
My intention as a mindful parent is to try and speak with conciousness of
the content of my words, and also to be straightforward when what I am doing
is in the broader realm of correcting Jayn's behavior (which is not a good
way to put it, but I'm a bit tired right this moment), or alerting her to
another better choice. If I want Jayn to take what I say to heart, the onus
is on me to say things worth listening to.
This includes owning my own feelings. For example, looking back now I
suspect that this "Why can't you...." collection of phrases that came from
my and my friends' parents was an expression of their frustration. Perhaps
they had expectations that were blinding them. Perhaps (almost undoubtedly
given that we were at an expensive, private girls' school) they had a lot of
schooly expectations and ambitions for their kids to make it worth the
expense.
So if I am having feelings I *try*, and this is an ongoing journey, to name
them in plain, direct language, whether that be out loud or in my own head.
It's not just about us speaking to them. It's also about them speaking to
us, wanting to continue to have the same wonderful conversations full of
discovery and enthusiasm that we had when they were tiny when they are
grown. If one way to keep the communication real is to avoid saying the same
dopey things my mom and my friends' moms said, then that is one thing I can
do.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
carnationsgalore
> I'm pretty laid back about it, then when the house starts to lookWhat do you mean by thrashed? Kids toys everywhere? General cleaning
> thrashed I become "Sarge Mom" and belt out orders.
not kept up? It sounds like you clean only in crisis mode, when it's
reached a critical point. Perhaps you can try cleaning more regularly
so it doesn't get to that point. My kids have always loved doing
housework such as vacuuming, dusting, wiping banisters, mopping
floors, and cleaning windows. I've always let them have fun doing it
and don't criticize their efforts in any way. Over the years their
skills have improved and housework isn't a dreaded thing like I see in
some other families.
Beth M.
Emily Troper
Hi Shannon,
In our family what we do is just clean up, and our kids sometimes
join in (because we know that kids naturally want to contribute to
the family and do meaningful work) and sometimes they don't join in,
and then we parents just clean. We try to model joyousness when
cleaning (avoid talking about cleaning as a "chore" that you can't
wait to get done with, etc.) and honestly let go of any attachment to
them helping us. That's what's worked well for us over the years...
Best,
Emily
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)
http://myspace.com/memssj
cleaning house? I'm >pretty laid back about it, then when the house
starts to look thrashed I become "Sarge Mom" and belt out orders. I
hate when that happens. Their rooms I >don't really worry about - I
just shut the door. I'm just looking for creative ideas for the rest
of the house. Thanks!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In our family what we do is just clean up, and our kids sometimes
join in (because we know that kids naturally want to contribute to
the family and do meaningful work) and sometimes they don't join in,
and then we parents just clean. We try to model joyousness when
cleaning (avoid talking about cleaning as a "chore" that you can't
wait to get done with, etc.) and honestly let go of any attachment to
them helping us. That's what's worked well for us over the years...
Best,
Emily
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)
http://myspace.com/memssj
>I'm sure this topic has been on here a thousand times, but sinceI'm new here, I was wondering what some of you do about kids and
cleaning house? I'm >pretty laid back about it, then when the house
starts to look thrashed I become "Sarge Mom" and belt out orders. I
hate when that happens. Their rooms I >don't really worry about - I
just shut the door. I'm just looking for creative ideas for the rest
of the house. Thanks!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon Foust
Thanks Emily - that sounds great too, especially the part about modeling joy in doing it, and letting go of expectations that they either must help, or that they should want to help. This will help me a lot. Shannon
Emily Troper <emtroper@...> wrote: Hi Shannon,
In our family what we do is just clean up, and our kids sometimes
join in (because we know that kids naturally want to contribute to
the family and do meaningful work) and sometimes they don't join in,
and then we parents just clean. We try to model joyousness when
cleaning (avoid talking about cleaning as a "chore" that you can't
wait to get done with, etc.) and honestly let go of any attachment to
them helping us. That's what's worked well for us over the years...
Best,
Emily
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)
http://myspace.com/memssj
cleaning house? I'm >pretty laid back about it, then when the house
starts to look thrashed I become "Sarge Mom" and belt out orders. I
hate when that happens. Their rooms I >don't really worry about - I
just shut the door. I'm just looking for creative ideas for the rest
of the house. Thanks!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily Troper <emtroper@...> wrote: Hi Shannon,
In our family what we do is just clean up, and our kids sometimes
join in (because we know that kids naturally want to contribute to
the family and do meaningful work) and sometimes they don't join in,
and then we parents just clean. We try to model joyousness when
cleaning (avoid talking about cleaning as a "chore" that you can't
wait to get done with, etc.) and honestly let go of any attachment to
them helping us. That's what's worked well for us over the years...
Best,
Emily
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)
http://myspace.com/memssj
>I'm sure this topic has been on here a thousand times, but sinceI'm new here, I was wondering what some of you do about kids and
cleaning house? I'm >pretty laid back about it, then when the house
starts to look thrashed I become "Sarge Mom" and belt out orders. I
hate when that happens. Their rooms I >don't really worry about - I
just shut the door. I'm just looking for creative ideas for the rest
of the house. Thanks!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
But how do
hers that is like this. It goes beyond that though, the father is,
in my opinion, extremely emotionally abusive and controlling.
Chamille has been viewed as a threat to his control over his
daughter, and in his twisted thinking, has to be removed.
He has done a fabulous job of this in many many subtle and not so
subtle ways. Currently Chamille can only see this friend at her
house on the father's conditions, which involve him being in the same
room as them at all times, probably to monitor conversation.
The father has done an amazing job of completely brainwashing and
eliminating resistance to his ultimate control over his children.
They do NOT defy him. He punishes severly and dangles carrots. The
kids aren't allowed out of the house, ever, except when he needs
something from the store, a couple blocks away, and sends them to
pick it up. He moved to a tiny apartment across the street from the
schools they go to, to ensure that they never go any where except
school and home. He has a job that makes sure that he is there when
they are. He keeps tabs on all phone calls.
They used to live across the street, and he used to let his kids play
outside with Chamille, this is how they really got to know each other
and become really good friends. Somewhere along the way, he decided
that Chamille was a really bad influence on his daughter and started
eliminating availability to the point where it is pretty much non-
existent.
It's really yucky and hurtful. I'm really uncomfortable with
Chamille going over to their house, yet I've allowed Chamille to
decide for herself what she is willing to put up with and be her
crying shoulder for all the pain.
So, last night after experiencing yet another let down from this
relationship, she realized, that the dad was never going to let her
have a relationship with her friend. There was never going to be a
time that he was going to allow his daughter to come over or DO
anything. The current excuse was just that, the current excuse and
the next time, there will be another one, and another, and another.
We went to the video store to get some movies and sat in the car for
a long time talking about it. Chamille said that he won. My
response was, are you kidding me? He hasn't won anything, he's lost
everything. Even if it were a contest, the clear winner would be
her, since she has a family that cares, and she is free to walk away
and find other friends. The losers are him and his kids. If his
children survive to adulthood, since suicide could be likely, they
will not have a relationship with their father and they will leave
for good. These are clear "at risk" kids. Several scenarios could
play out, but none of them any good for anyone.
Yesterday, she told her friend that she wasn't going to go over to
her house because her father is mean and she is uncomfortable around
him because of his meanness. She will probably never see this friend
again.
I could've ended this friendship a long time ago by not allowing
Chamille to go over to their house, but I didn't because Chamille
really does very much care for this person. She has endured a lot of
pain and suffering from it, she discovered for herself what her
boundary was with this person. That is a valuable life skill to
have, to know where that boundary is with people, how much you are
willing to put up with to experience the "good" parts, and to KNOW
that you have options and choices.
> you handle it when your child really wants to maintain thefriendship
> with the other child?Last night Chamille and I talked about a particular friendship of
hers that is like this. It goes beyond that though, the father is,
in my opinion, extremely emotionally abusive and controlling.
Chamille has been viewed as a threat to his control over his
daughter, and in his twisted thinking, has to be removed.
He has done a fabulous job of this in many many subtle and not so
subtle ways. Currently Chamille can only see this friend at her
house on the father's conditions, which involve him being in the same
room as them at all times, probably to monitor conversation.
The father has done an amazing job of completely brainwashing and
eliminating resistance to his ultimate control over his children.
They do NOT defy him. He punishes severly and dangles carrots. The
kids aren't allowed out of the house, ever, except when he needs
something from the store, a couple blocks away, and sends them to
pick it up. He moved to a tiny apartment across the street from the
schools they go to, to ensure that they never go any where except
school and home. He has a job that makes sure that he is there when
they are. He keeps tabs on all phone calls.
They used to live across the street, and he used to let his kids play
outside with Chamille, this is how they really got to know each other
and become really good friends. Somewhere along the way, he decided
that Chamille was a really bad influence on his daughter and started
eliminating availability to the point where it is pretty much non-
existent.
It's really yucky and hurtful. I'm really uncomfortable with
Chamille going over to their house, yet I've allowed Chamille to
decide for herself what she is willing to put up with and be her
crying shoulder for all the pain.
So, last night after experiencing yet another let down from this
relationship, she realized, that the dad was never going to let her
have a relationship with her friend. There was never going to be a
time that he was going to allow his daughter to come over or DO
anything. The current excuse was just that, the current excuse and
the next time, there will be another one, and another, and another.
We went to the video store to get some movies and sat in the car for
a long time talking about it. Chamille said that he won. My
response was, are you kidding me? He hasn't won anything, he's lost
everything. Even if it were a contest, the clear winner would be
her, since she has a family that cares, and she is free to walk away
and find other friends. The losers are him and his kids. If his
children survive to adulthood, since suicide could be likely, they
will not have a relationship with their father and they will leave
for good. These are clear "at risk" kids. Several scenarios could
play out, but none of them any good for anyone.
Yesterday, she told her friend that she wasn't going to go over to
her house because her father is mean and she is uncomfortable around
him because of his meanness. She will probably never see this friend
again.
I could've ended this friendship a long time ago by not allowing
Chamille to go over to their house, but I didn't because Chamille
really does very much care for this person. She has endured a lot of
pain and suffering from it, she discovered for herself what her
boundary was with this person. That is a valuable life skill to
have, to know where that boundary is with people, how much you are
willing to put up with to experience the "good" parts, and to KNOW
that you have options and choices.
Ren Allen
~~
In our family what we do is just clean up, and our kids sometimes
join in (because we know that kids naturally want to contribute to
the family and do meaningful work) and sometimes they don't join in,
and then we parents just clean~~
There is a conversation going on at UB on this very topic (after a Dad
posted about removing computer privileges in order to make his dd
clean up her toys....you can imagine the amount of posts flying now).
I think it's interesting when lists have a serendipitous moment of
same conversation.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
In our family what we do is just clean up, and our kids sometimes
join in (because we know that kids naturally want to contribute to
the family and do meaningful work) and sometimes they don't join in,
and then we parents just clean~~
There is a conversation going on at UB on this very topic (after a Dad
posted about removing computer privileges in order to make his dd
clean up her toys....you can imagine the amount of posts flying now).
I think it's interesting when lists have a serendipitous moment of
same conversation.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-There is a conversation going on at UB -=-
Speak English, please.
The UnschoolingBasics group. <g>
-=-I think it's interesting when lists have a serendipitous moment of
same conversation.:)-=-
Yes. Sometimes I think maybe a lurker builds up a charge of
something on one list and lets it out on another, which is fine for
everyone! <g>
All around me I see parents destroying their relationships with their
children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I could
help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping. Not
always in the same direction, but some.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Speak English, please.
The UnschoolingBasics group. <g>
-=-I think it's interesting when lists have a serendipitous moment of
same conversation.:)-=-
Yes. Sometimes I think maybe a lurker builds up a charge of
something on one list and lets it out on another, which is fine for
everyone! <g>
All around me I see parents destroying their relationships with their
children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I could
help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping. Not
always in the same direction, but some.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
The UnschoolingBasics group - Thanks I was wondering what UB group was - I'm the curious type.
All around me I see parents destroying their relationships with their
children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I could
help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping. Not
always in the same direction, but some.
- you do help and it spreads in ways you may never know. : )
For instance how I interact with my young niece and nephews models to my sister how it could be better / different / etc. and I see her doing "better" even though she does not homeschool or unschool.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
All around me I see parents destroying their relationships with their
children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I could
help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping. Not
always in the same direction, but some.
- you do help and it spreads in ways you may never know. : )
For instance how I interact with my young niece and nephews models to my sister how it could be better / different / etc. and I see her doing "better" even though she does not homeschool or unschool.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
and wonderful our lives have become. Just walking through a store
the other day, my heart felt like it would burst with joy. All we
were doing was holding hands and talking! Anyway, I owe it to this
list, to you. I am so proud of the family we have become.
It does, however, make it more difficult to be out and around other
parents. I just want to scream "It doesn't have to be like that!"
It has led to some interesting conversations with Emma (dd,5) about
families, though.
Amy
>their
> All around me I see parents destroying their relationships with
> children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I couldNot
> help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping.
> always in the same direction, but some.Oh yes, you do help. I've been thinking a lot lately about how fun
>
> Sandra
>
and wonderful our lives have become. Just walking through a store
the other day, my heart felt like it would burst with joy. All we
were doing was holding hands and talking! Anyway, I owe it to this
list, to you. I am so proud of the family we have become.
It does, however, make it more difficult to be out and around other
parents. I just want to scream "It doesn't have to be like that!"
It has led to some interesting conversations with Emma (dd,5) about
families, though.
Amy
Shannon Foust
"All around me I see parents destroying their relationships with their
children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I could
help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping. Not
always in the same direction, but some."
I come from a long line of estranged relationships, particularly mother/daughter -- my grandma and great-grandma didn't speak for 20 years so my mom didn't grow up with a grandma; my mom and grandma are recently estranged as are my mom and uncle; I am constantly struggling with feelings of inadequacy with my mom and just a general sense that she is not proud of me and is let down that I didn't do what she wanted me to do. I have 4 daughters and I was sure I was doing it differently -- I have homeschooled, and thought I had been more purposeful about my relationship with them. Granted, I struggle with controlling issues because it's so ingrained in me, but I have seriously worked hard at trying not to.
Well, sadly, just the other day my 16 year old daughter said to me that she thought I was always mad at her, didn't like her, and was generally disappointed in her and/or mad at her. We had been butting heads, but I didn't know her feelings were so deep. Ouch. I spent most of the day praying / contemplating / searching within. I was led back to the unschooling mindset / parenting philosophy which is why I joined a couple of days ago. I refuse to have a repeat of past generations with my daughters. I am excited about learning as much as I can here, even though it will be hard at times as old mindsets and mainstream habits die. I can already sense a change just in the last 4 days since I've signed up and "listened" to what is being said here. Thank you Sandra and everyone else for helping.
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children (and sometimes with others) and I think "I wish I could
help," and then I remember this list and I remember I'm helping. Not
always in the same direction, but some."
I come from a long line of estranged relationships, particularly mother/daughter -- my grandma and great-grandma didn't speak for 20 years so my mom didn't grow up with a grandma; my mom and grandma are recently estranged as are my mom and uncle; I am constantly struggling with feelings of inadequacy with my mom and just a general sense that she is not proud of me and is let down that I didn't do what she wanted me to do. I have 4 daughters and I was sure I was doing it differently -- I have homeschooled, and thought I had been more purposeful about my relationship with them. Granted, I struggle with controlling issues because it's so ingrained in me, but I have seriously worked hard at trying not to.
Well, sadly, just the other day my 16 year old daughter said to me that she thought I was always mad at her, didn't like her, and was generally disappointed in her and/or mad at her. We had been butting heads, but I didn't know her feelings were so deep. Ouch. I spent most of the day praying / contemplating / searching within. I was led back to the unschooling mindset / parenting philosophy which is why I joined a couple of days ago. I refuse to have a repeat of past generations with my daughters. I am excited about learning as much as I can here, even though it will be hard at times as old mindsets and mainstream habits die. I can already sense a change just in the last 4 days since I've signed up and "listened" to what is being said here. Thank you Sandra and everyone else for helping.
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have 4 daughters and I was sure I was doing it differently -- I
have homeschooled, and thought I had been more purposeful about my
relationship with them. Granted, I struggle with controlling issues
because it's so ingrained in me, but I have seriously worked hard at
trying not to. -=-
Homeschooling with a curriculum at home is, in my opinion, worse than
school. With school, the kids can escape at 3:00 or so and go to a
safe, loving environment (or at least a different threatening
environment). With school at home, where can those kids go to get
away? When?
Unschooling is homeschooling as far as the very general thing we're
doing (not sending our kids to school), but the similarity ends
pretty quickly. I didn't send my kids to school so I could do
something broader, wider, bigger than school. Some people kept their
kids home so they could do something narrower and smaller than school.
So as to resentment and expectations, unschoolers expect their kids
to be happy and curious and comfortable and other easy, pleasant
things. With homeSCHOOLing, kids are expected to do things, on
schedule, quickly, better, sooner, cheerfully, obediently, and it
makes them little and wrong and the parents don't like to admit it.
Those who were controlled and waited years to be big, to have their
turn to control, can't let go of that easily. Those who were made
to feel small have a hard time feeling big (and sometimes controlling
someone else is as near as they ever come).
Maybe some of that is applicable, and maybe none of it is, but just
in case there's anything useful, there it is.
Here are some affirmations I collected years ago and I can't credit
an author. It's not me! They helped me, when I was first a mom:
http://sandradodd.com/affirmations
If a few of them resonate with you, maybe write them somewhere or
carry one around with you to think about it for a few days, and then
carry another one around or something. Reading through the list
won't help much, but if one jumps out at you, dwell on the idea from
time to time for a while.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have homeschooled, and thought I had been more purposeful about my
relationship with them. Granted, I struggle with controlling issues
because it's so ingrained in me, but I have seriously worked hard at
trying not to. -=-
Homeschooling with a curriculum at home is, in my opinion, worse than
school. With school, the kids can escape at 3:00 or so and go to a
safe, loving environment (or at least a different threatening
environment). With school at home, where can those kids go to get
away? When?
Unschooling is homeschooling as far as the very general thing we're
doing (not sending our kids to school), but the similarity ends
pretty quickly. I didn't send my kids to school so I could do
something broader, wider, bigger than school. Some people kept their
kids home so they could do something narrower and smaller than school.
So as to resentment and expectations, unschoolers expect their kids
to be happy and curious and comfortable and other easy, pleasant
things. With homeSCHOOLing, kids are expected to do things, on
schedule, quickly, better, sooner, cheerfully, obediently, and it
makes them little and wrong and the parents don't like to admit it.
Those who were controlled and waited years to be big, to have their
turn to control, can't let go of that easily. Those who were made
to feel small have a hard time feeling big (and sometimes controlling
someone else is as near as they ever come).
Maybe some of that is applicable, and maybe none of it is, but just
in case there's anything useful, there it is.
Here are some affirmations I collected years ago and I can't credit
an author. It's not me! They helped me, when I was first a mom:
http://sandradodd.com/affirmations
If a few of them resonate with you, maybe write them somewhere or
carry one around with you to think about it for a few days, and then
carry another one around or something. Reading through the list
won't help much, but if one jumps out at you, dwell on the idea from
time to time for a while.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
Please please read "The Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship
Approach." That, along with this list, will TRULY make a huge
difference. The relationship between mothers and their older-teen and
young-adult daughters can be so sweet. I'm not really surprised at how
it has worked out for us, but I'm still sometimes almost giddy with
gratitude.
-pam
Approach." That, along with this list, will TRULY make a huge
difference. The relationship between mothers and their older-teen and
young-adult daughters can be so sweet. I'm not really surprised at how
it has worked out for us, but I'm still sometimes almost giddy with
gratitude.
-pam
On Mar 23, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Shannon Foust wrote:
> . I am excited about learning as much as I can here, even though it
> will be hard at times as old mindsets and mainstream habits die. I
> can already sense a change just in the last 4 days since I've signed
> up and "listened" to what is being said here. Thank you Sandra and
> everyone else for helping.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The relationship between mothers and their older-teen and
young-adult daughters can be so sweet. I'm not really surprised at how
it has worked out for us, but I'm still sometimes almost giddy with
gratitude.-=-
I feel the same way. Only my third is a girl, and I was afraid I was
just lucky with the boys being communicative and trusting, but it's
even moreso with Holly, who's sixteen. Sometimes I think I must be
imagining it, and then something happens to remind me I'm not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
young-adult daughters can be so sweet. I'm not really surprised at how
it has worked out for us, but I'm still sometimes almost giddy with
gratitude.-=-
I feel the same way. Only my third is a girl, and I was afraid I was
just lucky with the boys being communicative and trusting, but it's
even moreso with Holly, who's sixteen. Sometimes I think I must be
imagining it, and then something happens to remind me I'm not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Well, sadly, just the other day my 16 year old daughter said to methat she thought I was always mad at her, >didn't like her, and was
generally disappointed in her and/or mad at her. We had been butting
heads, but I >didn't know her feelings were so deep.
When you are in a moment like that, a really good thing to do, is
completely humble yourself and ask her what you can do specifically to
make it better. If you are causing her to feel disappointment and
anger, it is worth knowing how she perceives it. Sometimes it is
something that she will see that you have not.
Remove yourself from head butting. Don't argue, find a way to agree,
even if it means to agree to disagree and drop it. Walk away from the
argument, breath, and remember that it isn't about you, even if it feels
that way. Don't internalize a behavior that your daughter is doing that
is causing you to feel argumentative. Like water off a duck. That
feeling can just roll off of you.
Find all the things your daughter does "right", make a list of them.
Focus on them and notice them, even verbally, when appropriate. Notice
the things that she thinks she does "right" and do the same. It could
be as simple as "ooh, I like the way you did your eye shadow today".
Find something like that everyday and take note of it.
Jenny C
The relationship between mothers and their older-teen and
about going to the mall a lot with my older daughter. My M-I-L said
something about how Chamille needed to go to the mall with friends, and
how it's nice for me that I can go, but maybe not so great for Chamille.
Her implication was that Chamille needed something different than me,
and that I was being overbearing as a mother. I agreed that Chamille
would love to go with other kids, but that the ones she wants to go with
are never available and I am.
The fact is, Chamille would like to go with other kids, but she's also
happy to go with me. She actually likes me and likes to spend time with
me and vice versa. It's sweet and wonderful. Even at almost 14 she
still holds my hand or links arms with me. I never ever in a million
years would've done that with my mother at that age, and the only way I
would've gone to the mall with her was if she were buying me things.
> young-adult daughters can be so sweet. I'm not really surprised at howMe too Pam, me too. Yesterday, we saw extended family. I was talking
> it has worked out for us, but I'm still sometimes almost giddy with
> gratitude.
>
> -pam
>
about going to the mall a lot with my older daughter. My M-I-L said
something about how Chamille needed to go to the mall with friends, and
how it's nice for me that I can go, but maybe not so great for Chamille.
Her implication was that Chamille needed something different than me,
and that I was being overbearing as a mother. I agreed that Chamille
would love to go with other kids, but that the ones she wants to go with
are never available and I am.
The fact is, Chamille would like to go with other kids, but she's also
happy to go with me. She actually likes me and likes to spend time with
me and vice versa. It's sweet and wonderful. Even at almost 14 she
still holds my hand or links arms with me. I never ever in a million
years would've done that with my mother at that age, and the only way I
would've gone to the mall with her was if she were buying me things.
purple_flygirl
--Thank you Sandra/-
In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I have 4 daughters and I was sure I was doing it differently -- I
> have homeschooled, and thought I had been more purposeful about my
> relationship with them. Granted, I struggle with controlling issues
> because it's so ingrained in me, but I have seriously worked hard at
> trying not to. -=-
>
> Homeschooling with a curriculum at home is, in my opinion, worse than
> school. With school, the kids can escape at 3:00 or so and go to a
> safe, loving environment (or at least a different threatening
> environment). With school at home, where can those kids go to get
> away? When?
>
> Unschooling is homeschooling as far as the very general thing we're
> doing (not sending our kids to school), but the similarity ends
> pretty quickly. I didn't send my kids to school so I could do
> something broader, wider, bigger than school. Some people kept their
> kids home so they could do something narrower and smaller than school.
>
> So as to resentment and expectations, unschoolers expect their kids
> to be happy and curious and comfortable and other easy, pleasant
> things. With homeSCHOOLing, kids are expected to do things, on
> schedule, quickly, better, sooner, cheerfully, obediently, and it
> makes them little and wrong and the parents don't like to admit it.
>
> Those who were controlled and waited years to be big, to have their
> turn to control, can't let go of that easily. Those who were made
> to feel small have a hard time feeling big (and sometimes controlling
> someone else is as near as they ever come).
>
> Maybe some of that is applicable, and maybe none of it is, but just
> in case there's anything useful, there it is.
>
> Here are some affirmations I collected years ago and I can't credit
> an author. It's not me! They helped me, when I was first a mom:
> http://sandradodd.com/affirmations
> If a few of them resonate with you, maybe write them somewhere or
> carry one around with you to think about it for a few days, and then
> carry another one around or something. Reading through the list
> won't help much, but if one jumps out at you, dwell on the idea from
> time to time for a while.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Mamachaos
My mom never forced any kind of chore on us. I do remember helping with dishes, putting stuff away in my room, doing planting in springtime....and I remember it all with a smile on my face.
My youngest brother is now 22, 18 years younger than me, and I never lived in the house while he was alive.
He still lives at home. His best "friends" are my mom and his dad. They sit and have challenging political discussions, and take on VERY big questions and debate them. He takes my 91 year old grandfather to every Princteon U. home basketball game and football game, he translates basketball games that are "away" and on the radio to my granddad, since he is deaf and cannot hear them.
EVERYONE in the family, even I have questioned why this extremely bright kid is still at home....still not hanging out with friends of his own age etc. BUT you know what???? I finally get it. He was home tutored from 8-12th grade. He has never been told to do a chore that I know of, and yet he has always offered his help eagerly and tackels big projects at the house that no one else would want to do. He volunteers at my now deceased grandmother's church to take care of loose ends. He does this because it brings him joy to continue the service my grandmother provided...it has never been asked for nor implied that he should be doing this. What I finally GET is that he was allowed to blossom the way HE chose. He has been "held" by his parents and nourished and watered when needed, when asked BY him. NEVER have they put any "expectation" on him, and he is a VERY bright guy with Ivy- league educated parents, grandparents, uncles, brother etc. I mention this because there certainly is a lot of unspoken "pressure" with the long list of relatives accomplishments. He is the most relaxed and CONTENT person I know, and yet he owns nothing but the clothes on his back and an IPOD!
I don't know why I am relating this whole thing, except that it IS looked upon as strange in our society to like our parents and want to be with them when we are teens and older. WHY? I think this should really be examined. Just like when people looked at me like I had 2 heads when I was still nursing my 3 year olds (they self weaned at 3 1/2), it wasn't like they would nurse into college!! Humans grow up without our help, this is for sure. Just like they walked and talked without teaching, so they wean without forcing, they develop their own identities at their own pace and eventually become "independent" of us. And no adult would think it is healthy for the "independent" adult child to not want to be with their parents.........they would find it dysfunctional in some way probably. But these same people want the teens to not want to have anything to do with their parents? It is these kids that probably (I've done no research on this, I am guessing here) have the most problems, make the bigger mistakes, take the wrong turns. A parent serves as a compass, but you have to have that compass in hand in order to use it, right?
Thank you for this discussion!
Kelley
http://sandandstardust.blogspot.com/
"Childhood is a journey, not a race."
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My youngest brother is now 22, 18 years younger than me, and I never lived in the house while he was alive.
He still lives at home. His best "friends" are my mom and his dad. They sit and have challenging political discussions, and take on VERY big questions and debate them. He takes my 91 year old grandfather to every Princteon U. home basketball game and football game, he translates basketball games that are "away" and on the radio to my granddad, since he is deaf and cannot hear them.
EVERYONE in the family, even I have questioned why this extremely bright kid is still at home....still not hanging out with friends of his own age etc. BUT you know what???? I finally get it. He was home tutored from 8-12th grade. He has never been told to do a chore that I know of, and yet he has always offered his help eagerly and tackels big projects at the house that no one else would want to do. He volunteers at my now deceased grandmother's church to take care of loose ends. He does this because it brings him joy to continue the service my grandmother provided...it has never been asked for nor implied that he should be doing this. What I finally GET is that he was allowed to blossom the way HE chose. He has been "held" by his parents and nourished and watered when needed, when asked BY him. NEVER have they put any "expectation" on him, and he is a VERY bright guy with Ivy- league educated parents, grandparents, uncles, brother etc. I mention this because there certainly is a lot of unspoken "pressure" with the long list of relatives accomplishments. He is the most relaxed and CONTENT person I know, and yet he owns nothing but the clothes on his back and an IPOD!
I don't know why I am relating this whole thing, except that it IS looked upon as strange in our society to like our parents and want to be with them when we are teens and older. WHY? I think this should really be examined. Just like when people looked at me like I had 2 heads when I was still nursing my 3 year olds (they self weaned at 3 1/2), it wasn't like they would nurse into college!! Humans grow up without our help, this is for sure. Just like they walked and talked without teaching, so they wean without forcing, they develop their own identities at their own pace and eventually become "independent" of us. And no adult would think it is healthy for the "independent" adult child to not want to be with their parents.........they would find it dysfunctional in some way probably. But these same people want the teens to not want to have anything to do with their parents? It is these kids that probably (I've done no research on this, I am guessing here) have the most problems, make the bigger mistakes, take the wrong turns. A parent serves as a compass, but you have to have that compass in hand in order to use it, right?
Thank you for this discussion!
Kelley
http://sandandstardust.blogspot.com/
"Childhood is a journey, not a race."
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