Inflexibility
Lisa Meuser
This is a bit long. Going to start w/ two examples of the inflexible
pattern Kathrynn has going on, and then talk about it a bit. Would
appreciate feedback and suggestions. J
Kathrynn (5) is playing w/ kids, they are going to play a knight and
dragon kinda game. She is dressed as a knight. One of her friends is
dressed as a dragon, but doesn’t want to put the wings on. K is upset
bc her friend does not want to be a flying dragon, and thinks she HAS
to be a flying dragon for the game. We try to problem solve,
empathyze, but in the end K is very mad and angry, upset and yelling,
bc the other child will not put the wings on to make her a flying
dragon. K tells me to make the other child put on the wings, or take
the costume off the other girl so that I can be a flying dragon. I
offer to be a flying dragon w/ just the wings. K continues to sob and
yell at me to take the costome from the girl, or force her to wear
the wings. Luckily, the other kids decide to eat some lunch, then the
other girl decides to take off the costume, possibly bc she is tired
of hearing K in the other room sob about it and say “mean” things.
Later, they are playing knights again. Another boy also wants to be a
knight. We differentiate and make them two different kinds of
knights. K insists that she is the only Knight. No one else is ok
with her idea. She will not yield, and is sobbing and being “mean”.
I suggest we go outside and look for signs of Spring. This wokrs.
Issue remains.
Later, they are on my friends bed. Half are playing mud fight (pillow
fight) and K wants to lay on the bed w/o kids jumping on it. I
suggest that K can move to another bed. She refuses. She tells
everyone they have to get off the bed. Other kids are not ok with
that. I remind her that we’ve talked about if she needs some alone
time, she can find a space to her self, but asking everyone else to
leave a space so that she can have alone time may not work. Somehow
that situation gets resolved.
By the end of the day, it is more and more apparent that the kids are
getting tired of kathrynn’s grumpy responses. They don’t understand
it, and they are starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.
I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.
In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.
I know the pattern for her- she sets up a vision of what she wants.
She has always been this way.She sees a game (or something) happening
in one way. And then she expects and demands that it go that way.
When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
extent. And it can spiral from there. She ebbs and flows in how she
manages this pattern. Sometimes she is able to be more flexible and
fluid. But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
pain and frustration and anger.
Any suggestions?
pattern Kathrynn has going on, and then talk about it a bit. Would
appreciate feedback and suggestions. J
Kathrynn (5) is playing w/ kids, they are going to play a knight and
dragon kinda game. She is dressed as a knight. One of her friends is
dressed as a dragon, but doesn’t want to put the wings on. K is upset
bc her friend does not want to be a flying dragon, and thinks she HAS
to be a flying dragon for the game. We try to problem solve,
empathyze, but in the end K is very mad and angry, upset and yelling,
bc the other child will not put the wings on to make her a flying
dragon. K tells me to make the other child put on the wings, or take
the costume off the other girl so that I can be a flying dragon. I
offer to be a flying dragon w/ just the wings. K continues to sob and
yell at me to take the costome from the girl, or force her to wear
the wings. Luckily, the other kids decide to eat some lunch, then the
other girl decides to take off the costume, possibly bc she is tired
of hearing K in the other room sob about it and say “mean” things.
Later, they are playing knights again. Another boy also wants to be a
knight. We differentiate and make them two different kinds of
knights. K insists that she is the only Knight. No one else is ok
with her idea. She will not yield, and is sobbing and being “mean”.
I suggest we go outside and look for signs of Spring. This wokrs.
Issue remains.
Later, they are on my friends bed. Half are playing mud fight (pillow
fight) and K wants to lay on the bed w/o kids jumping on it. I
suggest that K can move to another bed. She refuses. She tells
everyone they have to get off the bed. Other kids are not ok with
that. I remind her that we’ve talked about if she needs some alone
time, she can find a space to her self, but asking everyone else to
leave a space so that she can have alone time may not work. Somehow
that situation gets resolved.
By the end of the day, it is more and more apparent that the kids are
getting tired of kathrynn’s grumpy responses. They don’t understand
it, and they are starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.
I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.
In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.
I know the pattern for her- she sets up a vision of what she wants.
She has always been this way.She sees a game (or something) happening
in one way. And then she expects and demands that it go that way.
When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
extent. And it can spiral from there. She ebbs and flows in how she
manages this pattern. Sometimes she is able to be more flexible and
fluid. But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
pain and frustration and anger.
Any suggestions?
Sandra Dodd
-=-In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.-=-
Can you find a few-years-older kid to play with her at your house,
maybe? In a park or other public places? You might find a kid who'd
like some time away from her own home, or you might pay a few dollars
an hour as a "mother's helper" (not babysitter; you'd be there too,
nearby). You could tell the older kid what the problem is, and they
could "just play," but the older child could maybe reason with her
about sharing. If she hears it from another young person, it might
sink in more and make a different kind of sense.
I've gotten friends of mine to talk to my kids from time to time over
they years when my own message was being misunderstood or
disregarded. Even now with them big sometimes I've asked another
slightly older friend of theirs to see if they could address or check
out some issue, or make peace between my kids about something or
other. It's subtle but really effective, and the friends I ask like
the challenge and the responsibility.
I'm trying to think of examples. Holly was crowding Marty,
socially, and when they were going to go to a restaurant and then to
hang around with a group of 8 or 10, I asked one of them who knew
everyone well to try to help Marty have space without Holly in it.
It involved seating considerations and distraction or subtle removal
of Holly, when they were in a house with different rooms, and I don't
think Holly even knew.
It happens with adults sometimes. When there's a party or social-
something, if some of us know that one person is irritated with or
tired of another one, to avoid frustration or sharpness, we'll try to
arrange to have them in separate places, both happy, at least one of
them unaware of the machinations. And if they end up looking like
they're about to be alone in a room or elbowed up at the food table,
someone who's on the jolly-and-prevention team (I just made that up,
I've never written about this before) will scoot up and be like a
safety officer, making sure they each have what they need without
having to either converse with or ignore each other.
Done well, that never, ever shows.
It can be done with kids too.
-=-When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
extent. -=-
"Disempowered" from controlling others? That's probably good and
healthy.
-=-But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
pain and frustration and anger.-=-
Then get her out of there sooner.
I couldn't tell just what kind of social thing lasted all day but it
seems too long for her (and probably seemed WAY too long to the other
kids if they were having to move to avoid or defend.
Once Holly was in a tacky, controlling, negative mood and it was
Marty's birthday. I told her she was not going to mess up Marty's
party, and she needed to figure out a way to get cheerful and nice,
or stay in her room, or we'd have to remove her from the house. If
she wanted to be at Marty's party she had to help us make it special
for Marty.
I would've called an adult or teen friend to extricate her from the
property if she's kept on as she was. I'm Marty's mom too, and
birthdays are not to be ruined at our house.
-=-I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.-=-
Have you practiced breathing and calming with her? If you've ever
done any meditation, think the breathing benefits of that, but it can
be done anywhere.
It might help her to use my "make the better choice" idea that's
written up here and there and you could listen to it here:
http://sandradodd.com/peacefullyparenting (at the bottom). If she
acts without thinking first, she's just barreling wrecklessly along.
If she thinks and decides what to do, she'll be better right away.
And then when you talk to her you could ask "Was the the best think
you thought to say?" (or do) and you could ask her what other thing
she considered before she made that decision.
If she gets angry about you expecting her to think before she talks
or acts, you could tell her you'd rather not take her to such social
situations if she thinks it's okay to do whatever she wants all the
time without even thinking about what's kind and good.
Sandra
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.-=-
Can you find a few-years-older kid to play with her at your house,
maybe? In a park or other public places? You might find a kid who'd
like some time away from her own home, or you might pay a few dollars
an hour as a "mother's helper" (not babysitter; you'd be there too,
nearby). You could tell the older kid what the problem is, and they
could "just play," but the older child could maybe reason with her
about sharing. If she hears it from another young person, it might
sink in more and make a different kind of sense.
I've gotten friends of mine to talk to my kids from time to time over
they years when my own message was being misunderstood or
disregarded. Even now with them big sometimes I've asked another
slightly older friend of theirs to see if they could address or check
out some issue, or make peace between my kids about something or
other. It's subtle but really effective, and the friends I ask like
the challenge and the responsibility.
I'm trying to think of examples. Holly was crowding Marty,
socially, and when they were going to go to a restaurant and then to
hang around with a group of 8 or 10, I asked one of them who knew
everyone well to try to help Marty have space without Holly in it.
It involved seating considerations and distraction or subtle removal
of Holly, when they were in a house with different rooms, and I don't
think Holly even knew.
It happens with adults sometimes. When there's a party or social-
something, if some of us know that one person is irritated with or
tired of another one, to avoid frustration or sharpness, we'll try to
arrange to have them in separate places, both happy, at least one of
them unaware of the machinations. And if they end up looking like
they're about to be alone in a room or elbowed up at the food table,
someone who's on the jolly-and-prevention team (I just made that up,
I've never written about this before) will scoot up and be like a
safety officer, making sure they each have what they need without
having to either converse with or ignore each other.
Done well, that never, ever shows.
It can be done with kids too.
-=-When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
extent. -=-
"Disempowered" from controlling others? That's probably good and
healthy.
-=-But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
pain and frustration and anger.-=-
Then get her out of there sooner.
I couldn't tell just what kind of social thing lasted all day but it
seems too long for her (and probably seemed WAY too long to the other
kids if they were having to move to avoid or defend.
Once Holly was in a tacky, controlling, negative mood and it was
Marty's birthday. I told her she was not going to mess up Marty's
party, and she needed to figure out a way to get cheerful and nice,
or stay in her room, or we'd have to remove her from the house. If
she wanted to be at Marty's party she had to help us make it special
for Marty.
I would've called an adult or teen friend to extricate her from the
property if she's kept on as she was. I'm Marty's mom too, and
birthdays are not to be ruined at our house.
-=-I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.-=-
Have you practiced breathing and calming with her? If you've ever
done any meditation, think the breathing benefits of that, but it can
be done anywhere.
It might help her to use my "make the better choice" idea that's
written up here and there and you could listen to it here:
http://sandradodd.com/peacefullyparenting (at the bottom). If she
acts without thinking first, she's just barreling wrecklessly along.
If she thinks and decides what to do, she'll be better right away.
And then when you talk to her you could ask "Was the the best think
you thought to say?" (or do) and you could ask her what other thing
she considered before she made that decision.
If she gets angry about you expecting her to think before she talks
or acts, you could tell her you'd rather not take her to such social
situations if she thinks it's okay to do whatever she wants all the
time without even thinking about what's kind and good.
Sandra
Danielle Damman-Troutt
> It might help her to use my "make the better choice" idea that'sI'm pretty sure the link is supposed to be
> written up here and there and you could listen to it here:
> http://sandradodd.com/peacefullyparenting (at the bottom).
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
I was just getting ready to post an eerily similar post regarding my just
turned 6 year old son. Thanks for the link and I look forward to watching
and possibly engaging in this thread.
Peace,
~danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm pretty sure the link is supposed to be
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully -=-
THANK YOU!
Yes, I was confused because I had to change the name of that page
upon threat of lawsuit. Exciting, huh?
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully -=-
THANK YOU!
Yes, I was confused because I had to change the name of that page
upon threat of lawsuit. Exciting, huh?
Sandra
Amanda Horein
Lisa,
I have no suggestions. Just empathy. I have been through situations that
mirror yours on a regular basis with my youngest who is 4 and has always
demanded her way. Especially with her OLDER sister. Just today we had an
issue where Marti (7) was trying to get out of her bedroom and Lilly
wouldn't let her out. When Marti would try, Lilly would hit her.
In honesty, I didn't intervene in time and take complete responsibility for
what happened. What I did do was remove Lil from the scene. She went
downstairs. I followed, but I didn't talk to her about it, or pay her much
attention until she was calm (Daddy had yelled at her and she was crying.
Probably partially because she was mad at daddy for yelling and partially
because she was sorry for hitting her sister). Then, when she was calm it
was "It's time to go and get dressed because we have to take daddy to work
soon." I figure, she already knows that it isn't okay to hit her sister. She
didn't know how else to get her way in the moment.
--
Amanda
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
Swap books. It's fun and free.
http://choose2bgr8.paperbackswap.com
"�or whatever other innocent sounding name where the child has been sent to
be stripped of his individuality and turned into an obedient, soul dead
conformist of the American consumer culture"
---George Carlin
Complaints & Grievances
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have no suggestions. Just empathy. I have been through situations that
mirror yours on a regular basis with my youngest who is 4 and has always
demanded her way. Especially with her OLDER sister. Just today we had an
issue where Marti (7) was trying to get out of her bedroom and Lilly
wouldn't let her out. When Marti would try, Lilly would hit her.
In honesty, I didn't intervene in time and take complete responsibility for
what happened. What I did do was remove Lil from the scene. She went
downstairs. I followed, but I didn't talk to her about it, or pay her much
attention until she was calm (Daddy had yelled at her and she was crying.
Probably partially because she was mad at daddy for yelling and partially
because she was sorry for hitting her sister). Then, when she was calm it
was "It's time to go and get dressed because we have to take daddy to work
soon." I figure, she already knows that it isn't okay to hit her sister. She
didn't know how else to get her way in the moment.
--
Amanda
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
Swap books. It's fun and free.
http://choose2bgr8.paperbackswap.com
"�or whatever other innocent sounding name where the child has been sent to
be stripped of his individuality and turned into an obedient, soul dead
conformist of the American consumer culture"
---George Carlin
Complaints & Grievances
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
Hi Amanda--
These times can be so volatile in the moment, but when things quiet down enough to talk,
I've found that helping them to make amends can go a long way. You didn't say if there
was any resolution between your two girls--just the distraction part, so I'm writing about
what that would look like in my house.
These times can be so volatile in the moment, but when things quiet down enough to talk,
I've found that helping them to make amends can go a long way. You didn't say if there
was any resolution between your two girls--just the distraction part, so I'm writing about
what that would look like in my house.
--- In [email protected], "Amanda Horein" <horein@...> wrote:
>
"and partially because she was sorry for hitting her sister"
I worked out the apology thing a long time ago, because there is some conventional
(wisdom) that says not to "make" kids apologize. That confused me, because what should
happen when someone has "wronged" another? I think that wisdom is around to avoid the
ugliness of a forced apology, but it has taken over and confused parents about what a
heartfelt acceptance of responsibility and a healing acceptance of apology can look like.
Here's what it looks like for us: I will talk with the hurt child first and make sure they are
o.k.--even better when there's another parent there do comfort the hurt one. Then I
focus on the one who did the hurting, empathize, let them tell their story, and then as
things cool down and they feel understood I will begin to interject the voice of the other
side. At some point here the "offender" will begin to feel sorry that the situation got out of
control, and I will ask if they are ready to apologize--and at this point it is sincere and
totally coming from them. I just facilitate the communication. If they are too embarrassed
to speak, which is happening lately with my daughter, then we both go and I do the
speaking. And the connection that happens frequently makes the relationship better than
before.
I'm sorry if this is obvious to many of you--but it wasn't to me when my children were
littler and I had some friends that felt strongly that their kids "shouldn't" apologize, which
is what is has become in some circles. I was very confused because I could feel the
unfinished business hanging in the air, between both children, and often the problem
would then come up over and over because it hadn't been really resolved.
Joanna
Renee
<<I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.
In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.>>
I'm new here and still learning, but I wanted to respond to this as I have been reading a lot about 5 yr. development and I have a daughter who seems quite similiar to yours.
I have found success in increasing the amount of time I spend playing with her at home. I play the parts she wants me to and generally do as she wants when we are playing. It seems to me that if she gets a lot of opportunities to "be in charge" at home, she is a little more flexible at the park or other environments where she is playing with other kids. I have also tried to play with her and her brother when they are playing these types of games and I sort of work through the problems with them while we are playing (sometimes talking about what's happening (they both want a specific magic wand, brother does not want to be the knight, etc.) in my mean dragon voice, or singing it to them if we are playing dancing princesses, etc.). She tends to be more responsive if she thinks I'm playing rather than reprimanding her. (got this idea from Sandra's writings about helping kids/siblings with conflict and helping them to "save face")
I've also been trying to explain to her what the other kids are feeling (sometimes in the moment-- sometimes after) without blaming her. (I can't think of a good example) but, I try and get her thinking about what is going on with the other person and sometimes it's enough distraction from her own emotions about the situation, and she can more easily move on or help find a solution. I don't say, "look what you did" or "look how you made her feel" I just talk to her about what is going on and how I think everyone is feeling.
I agree with Sandra, that this seems like a long day for everyone. If you shorten the time she has to be with the other kids her success will increase and she will start to feel better about herself and these social situations.
I hope that helps.
Renee
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.
In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.>>
I'm new here and still learning, but I wanted to respond to this as I have been reading a lot about 5 yr. development and I have a daughter who seems quite similiar to yours.
I have found success in increasing the amount of time I spend playing with her at home. I play the parts she wants me to and generally do as she wants when we are playing. It seems to me that if she gets a lot of opportunities to "be in charge" at home, she is a little more flexible at the park or other environments where she is playing with other kids. I have also tried to play with her and her brother when they are playing these types of games and I sort of work through the problems with them while we are playing (sometimes talking about what's happening (they both want a specific magic wand, brother does not want to be the knight, etc.) in my mean dragon voice, or singing it to them if we are playing dancing princesses, etc.). She tends to be more responsive if she thinks I'm playing rather than reprimanding her. (got this idea from Sandra's writings about helping kids/siblings with conflict and helping them to "save face")
I've also been trying to explain to her what the other kids are feeling (sometimes in the moment-- sometimes after) without blaming her. (I can't think of a good example) but, I try and get her thinking about what is going on with the other person and sometimes it's enough distraction from her own emotions about the situation, and she can more easily move on or help find a solution. I don't say, "look what you did" or "look how you made her feel" I just talk to her about what is going on and how I think everyone is feeling.
I agree with Sandra, that this seems like a long day for everyone. If you shorten the time she has to be with the other kids her success will increase and she will start to feel better about herself and these social situations.
I hope that helps.
Renee
Jenny C
> By the end of the day, it is more and more apparent that the kidsare
> getting tired of kathrynn's grumpy responses. They don'tunderstand
> it, and they are starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.If the friends are guests at your house, I wouldn't let your daughter
>
do that. Perhaps invite everyone to play another game that your
daughter is welcome to join in too.
> In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social andworking
> loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time
> with the flow of being w/ her friends.I'm not sure that I would keep her home, but I think I would take her
>
on the condition that she plays nicely, and be specific. If she
stops playing nicely, leave and do something else fun with her. Take
her out of the environment that seems to set her up for failure.
Don't let it get to the point where kids stop inviting her, because
that would be even worse.
> I know the pattern for her- she sets up a vision of what shewants.
> She has always been this way.She sees a game (or something)happening
> in one way. And then she expects and demands that it go that way.she
> When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
> extent. And it can spiral from there. She ebbs and flows in how
> manages this pattern. Sometimes she is able to be more flexibleand
> fluid. But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I seemy
> friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feelingMy oldest daughter was a visionary player like that, but she was
> pain and frustration and anger.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
flexible. All the kids wanted to play her games and play her ideas.
Somehow there needs to be talking points within the game. Perhaps
that is where you can help. Help set up the game. If your daughter
doesn't like the outcome, let her do something else and let the
others play.
When my daughter was really young she knew a kid that played really
inflexible like that. I always made other plans when that kids was
involved because I didn't want my daughter to have to deal with this
child. I didn't like to see her ideas crushed over and over. Other
kids that played with this kid didn't like it either, but went along
with it anyway. I felt that it wasn't worth it and we could find
better kids to hang out with, ones that valued the way my daughter
played.
Jenny C
>down enough to talk,
> These times can be so volatile in the moment, but when things quiet
> I've found that helping them to make amends can go a long way. Youdidn't say if there
> was any resolution between your two girls--just the distractionpart, so I'm writing about
> what that would look like in my house.You know, I used to think that my girls needed to make amends too.
>
What I've found though, is that any kind of help on my part was
futile. My younger daughter won't make amends. She will eventually
get herself in a better space and frame of mind and maybe make a
better choice next time, or cry about it later because she feels
guilty, but she won't make amends.
My older daughter will make amends when she's done something she
feels bad about. It's a personality difference.
I think people come to terms with mistakes in their own ways.
Jenny C
>I was going to write about that too, I couldn't think of the right way
> -=-When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
> extent. -=-
>
> "Disempowered" from controlling others? That's probably good and
> healthy.
>
to put it. My thinking was along the lines that it's not a healthy way
to see conflicts as one person being or feeling disempowered. It is a
conflict, not a power struggle.
My thought was that seeing a child wanting her way as a power struggle
would cause more harm than good at finding a solution to the problem,
which is really more about conflict resolution and navigating with
other people. Those are really hard things for some kids, and some
adults too.
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have also tried to play with her and her brother when they are
playing these types of games and I sort of work through the problems
with them while we are playing (sometimes talking about what's
happening (they both want a specific magic wand, brother does not
want to be the knight, etc.) in my mean dragon voice, or singing it
to them if we are playing dancing princesses, etc.). She tends to be
more responsive if she thinks I'm playing rather than reprimanding
her.-=-
As I was reading this, I was getting more and more excited, thinking
THIS IS WONDERFUL!
And then I read this:
-=-(got this idea from Sandra's writings about helping kids/siblings
with conflict and helping them to "save face")-=-
Well thanks. You're welcome. But no, what you have is wonderful and
big and good advice for dealing with something from within the game.
I guess we do something like that here, but what's in that top
paragraph is clearer and better.
Just yesterday Keith (my husband) said something about how I learn
things in the yard like what happens if you leave the water on for
three days. I said "I have NEVER left the water on for three days,"
and as I was saying it, knowing it was true, I also knew that I
didn't want to just be argumentative, and that he has MANY times
turned water off that I'd left on for hours, so I added smoothly,
"...thanks to you." And so we both smiled and what could have been a
comment and a defense and an insult and another insult turned into a
"we're partners; thank you" kind of moment. So I guess that was a
little like commenting from within the game.
Sandra
playing these types of games and I sort of work through the problems
with them while we are playing (sometimes talking about what's
happening (they both want a specific magic wand, brother does not
want to be the knight, etc.) in my mean dragon voice, or singing it
to them if we are playing dancing princesses, etc.). She tends to be
more responsive if she thinks I'm playing rather than reprimanding
her.-=-
As I was reading this, I was getting more and more excited, thinking
THIS IS WONDERFUL!
And then I read this:
-=-(got this idea from Sandra's writings about helping kids/siblings
with conflict and helping them to "save face")-=-
Well thanks. You're welcome. But no, what you have is wonderful and
big and good advice for dealing with something from within the game.
I guess we do something like that here, but what's in that top
paragraph is clearer and better.
Just yesterday Keith (my husband) said something about how I learn
things in the yard like what happens if you leave the water on for
three days. I said "I have NEVER left the water on for three days,"
and as I was saying it, knowing it was true, I also knew that I
didn't want to just be argumentative, and that he has MANY times
turned water off that I'd left on for hours, so I added smoothly,
"...thanks to you." And so we both smiled and what could have been a
comment and a defense and an insult and another insult turned into a
"we're partners; thank you" kind of moment. So I guess that was a
little like commenting from within the game.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-You know, I used to think that my girls needed to make amends too.
What I've found though, is that any kind of help on my part was
futile. -=-
I don't ask my kids to say sorry, but I didn't think it was futile to
help them understand what had happened so they could avoid similar
situations in the future.
I wrote that up and someone saved it and it's here:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
-=-I think people come to terms with mistakes in their own ways. -=-
True, but they can't all get themselves out of rough situations on
their own, and shouldn't have to. Whether Kirby says sorry or not,
it's not okay for him to bully Marty or Holly. I'm more concerned
with keeping peace (and preventing longterm harm/resentment) than
about whether there's any apology.
And the only apologies worth anything are the honest and heartfelt
expressions of regret and sorrow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I've found though, is that any kind of help on my part was
futile. -=-
I don't ask my kids to say sorry, but I didn't think it was futile to
help them understand what had happened so they could avoid similar
situations in the future.
I wrote that up and someone saved it and it's here:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
-=-I think people come to terms with mistakes in their own ways. -=-
True, but they can't all get themselves out of rough situations on
their own, and shouldn't have to. Whether Kirby says sorry or not,
it's not okay for him to bully Marty or Holly. I'm more concerned
with keeping peace (and preventing longterm harm/resentment) than
about whether there's any apology.
And the only apologies worth anything are the honest and heartfelt
expressions of regret and sorrow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
"My younger daughter won't make amends."
And you don't find that your older daughter or any of your younger daughter's friends
hold on to the bad feelings longer, or that the patterns play out again? That's what I have
found to be almost universal to our experience (which of course doesn't mean universal
experience).
" I think people come to terms with mistakes in their own ways."
I don't think anyone could argue with that. But that's only 1/2 of the equation. I have
found, depending on the situation and personalities involved, that the relationships suffer,
and that that ends up hurting my children because their friend is mad at them.
Sometimes it is more difficult than others, and it takes more empathy toward them when
they are feeling more stuck in the emotion, to help them to create a shift, but the rewards
are always worth it.
"or cry about it later because she feels guilty"
Those are the feelings that need a place to go.
"You know, I used to think that my girls needed to make amends too"
When we are in the mode of working through a problem, it isn't my goal to make amends-
-my primary goal is to help my kids get emotionally unstuck. This part can look like many
different things--silently sitting beside them, holding them, leaving them alone until they
feel ready, talking them down. The amends part comes in much later, and is a natural
extension of their healing and wanting to rejoin their society. The guilt is transformed into
understanding and reconnection, and their hearts open back up.
My daughter was just involved in a situation in which she became embarrassed about her
new feelings for a boy with her friends. She brought the subject up, but then became
certain that a friend had told her secret to another friend and got really angry. It was
immediately apparent to all concerned that that hadn't happened, but she got locked into
her tangle of emotions and froze up. She didn't know what to do, so she continued to say
she was mad and wouldn't talk to the friend. It was an ongoing drama at the park all that
day. She wouldn't talk to me or anyone else--was just miserable and angry. The friend
then started to get angry back and things began to get ugly. We all ended up at a mutual
friend's house as we had already planned a sleepover (visiting another city), so the drama
was continuing with feelings mounting. When I was finally able to converse with my dd, I
guessed how she was feeling. Yep, she was hugely embarrassed at the drama she'd
caused and didn't know how to get out of it. One simple conversation later, with me
explaining to her friend, her standing there, and all was resolved and the four girls
involved all got along beautifully the rest of the night.
A few days later we ended up in a similar situation with her friend being the one who got
stuck and didn't know how to get out of it. She tried just playing with my daughter again,
but it didn't work. Things were too awkward. Until my daughter had some understanding
of what had happened, and the friend got to say her part, things just didn't feel right.
"It's a personality difference"
Is it a personality difference or just practice?
Joanna
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
understanding of their part and the other persons, and genuine sorrow for what part they
may have contributed to the situation.
In fact, I had to be the recipient of one of those recently. Yuck! My daughter and I
attended a school show of the Nutcracker. The row of young boys behind us so clearly
didn't want to be there, but the had to be taught culture, so the class was there. They
found something to do which was so much more fun than the show--kicking my
daughter's seat. She asked me to talk to them, which I did very respectfully. Then the
game changed to kicking both of our seats. The chaperones were useless and it ruined
the second half for us.
Afterward the chaperone marched the ringleader up to us and had him apologize. It was
so uncomfortable for all of us, and I thought she should have been apologizing to him to
boot, for inflicting that torture upon him that set him up to misbehave.
Joanna
>Just for clarity's sake, that is what I'm talking about too--resolution coming from a deeper
>
>
> And the only apologies worth anything are the honest and heartfelt
> expressions of regret and sorrow.
>
> Sandra
>
>
understanding of their part and the other persons, and genuine sorrow for what part they
may have contributed to the situation.
In fact, I had to be the recipient of one of those recently. Yuck! My daughter and I
attended a school show of the Nutcracker. The row of young boys behind us so clearly
didn't want to be there, but the had to be taught culture, so the class was there. They
found something to do which was so much more fun than the show--kicking my
daughter's seat. She asked me to talk to them, which I did very respectfully. Then the
game changed to kicking both of our seats. The chaperones were useless and it ruined
the second half for us.
Afterward the chaperone marched the ringleader up to us and had him apologize. It was
so uncomfortable for all of us, and I thought she should have been apologizing to him to
boot, for inflicting that torture upon him that set him up to misbehave.
Joanna
Pamela Sorooshian
I don't think the other people usually want "amends" (like what?
Saying "I'm sorry?") - what they want is the person to not do it again.
--pam
Saying "I'm sorry?") - what they want is the person to not do it again.
--pam
On Mar 20, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Joanna Murphy wrote:
> "My younger daughter won't make amends."
>
> And you don't find that your older daughter or any of your younger
> daughter's friends
> hold on to the bad feelings longer, or that the patterns play out
> again? That's what I have
> found to be almost universal to our experience (which of course
> doesn't mean universal
> experience).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Just for clarity's sake, that is what I'm talking about too--resolution coming from a deeper
> understanding of their part and the other persons, and genuinesorrow for what part they
> may have contributed to the situation.Ok, thanks for the clarity. That is what we do here too. I find
>
that my younger daughter takes a lot longer to deal with these things
than any person I've ever met in my life. Sometimes, days will go
by, and all of a sudden it will come up in deep remorse on her part
for something that she'd done days before that often everyone had
already forgotten.
It didn't happen immediately, or hours later or anytime remotely soon
after. There is no amount of coaxing or talking or trying to delve
deeper into it, that will make it better or happen sooner.
I figure it's a learning curve sort of thing that will get better
with age and time and understanding. It's not that we don't talk
about it or that I don't help the injured party feel better, it's
that I don't force any amending or apology that isn't going to happen
any time soon or happen with real feelings of in the moment sorrow.
I have suggested that she apologize when she does feel that remorse,
since it does help it feel better to get it out. Sometimes she does
and sometimes she doesn't.
Jenny C
> I don't think the other people usually want "amends" (like what?again.
> Saying "I'm sorry?") - what they want is the person to not do it
>That is what we focus on at our house, since making amends can be
> --pam
>
hard. Sometimes, it just better to not go there again, for several
reasons, one being not having to feel deep remorse for it later.
Sometimes it's better to let it go and not dwell on something that a
child has done wrong, and focus on how to avoid it in the future.
Sometimes, for some kids, that means a closure of some sorts, like
apologizing, and for some kids, it means walking away and doing
something different, putting that yucky stuff behind them.
Pam Tellew
<<I worked out the apology thing a long time ago, because there is
some conventional
(wisdom) that says not to "make" kids apologize. That confused me,
because what should
happen when someone has "wronged" another? I think that wisdom is
around to avoid the
ugliness of a forced apology, but it has taken over and confused
parents about what a
heartfelt acceptance of responsibility and a healing acceptance of
apology can look like.>>>
<<<and I will ask if they are ready to apologize>>>
Maybe this would sound different in person, but I hear an expectation
of an apology here and, to me, that's not enough choice.
I've always let my kids know that it can be a big help to apologize
and offered to help them do it if it's something they want to
do. But I've never made them do it. I think that at this point,
they see it as a convention that can help break the ice following a
conflict or mistake, but a convention that can be used insincerely too.
I like your point about "a healing acceptance of apology,"
though. That's not something that I thought of talking about, the
graciousness of forgiveness.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
some conventional
(wisdom) that says not to "make" kids apologize. That confused me,
because what should
happen when someone has "wronged" another? I think that wisdom is
around to avoid the
ugliness of a forced apology, but it has taken over and confused
parents about what a
heartfelt acceptance of responsibility and a healing acceptance of
apology can look like.>>>
<<<and I will ask if they are ready to apologize>>>
Maybe this would sound different in person, but I hear an expectation
of an apology here and, to me, that's not enough choice.
I've always let my kids know that it can be a big help to apologize
and offered to help them do it if it's something they want to
do. But I've never made them do it. I think that at this point,
they see it as a convention that can help break the ice following a
conflict or mistake, but a convention that can be used insincerely too.
I like your point about "a healing acceptance of apology,"
though. That's not something that I thought of talking about, the
graciousness of forgiveness.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
Pam--
When you have "wronged" someone in your life--hubby, child, etc.--do you feel any
responsibility to apologize, or do you see it as optional? That is the question that I've
asked myself. And why should it be any different because my children are young. In
practice, this doesn't mean that I have an expectation that they will run around
apologizing for everything that is a perceived wrong, or even an expectation in any
particular moment, but I have an overall expectation that my kids will grow into the kind
of people that can learn from their mistakes, own up to them when appropriate and
graciously forgive others, when appropriate. (I really liked your phrase "graciously
forgiving.") I know plenty of adults who can't do this.
Like so many other words in our language, the word apology has a lot of baggage
attatched to it. Everyone has that image of the forced apology--ugly. That is not at all
what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a place where feelings have been worked
through and my child is in a place of desiring reconciliation. An apology can facilitate a
reconciliation. There's no forcing--when given, it comes from their heart. And if my child
has done something wrong to someone, they always want reconciliation. So what I'm really
talking about is my children going from being tied-up-in-knots back to a place where
their emotional energy is flowing again, and wanting to take that flow back into the
relationship. It's always a choice to remain blocked--but I'm helping my kids find ways to
unblock. The result in my husband's family of the inability to unblock is that my MIL
hasn't spoken to her brother in 45 years, over something pretty minor. I don't want to see
that pattern continued.
Every time something happens and my kids reach that place, make an apology and find
acceptance of themselves and from the other person (even better) they realize that their
mistakes are o.k. and fixable and have more trust in themselves.
Joanna
.--- In [email protected], Pam Tellew <pamtellew@...> wrote:
When you have "wronged" someone in your life--hubby, child, etc.--do you feel any
responsibility to apologize, or do you see it as optional? That is the question that I've
asked myself. And why should it be any different because my children are young. In
practice, this doesn't mean that I have an expectation that they will run around
apologizing for everything that is a perceived wrong, or even an expectation in any
particular moment, but I have an overall expectation that my kids will grow into the kind
of people that can learn from their mistakes, own up to them when appropriate and
graciously forgive others, when appropriate. (I really liked your phrase "graciously
forgiving.") I know plenty of adults who can't do this.
Like so many other words in our language, the word apology has a lot of baggage
attatched to it. Everyone has that image of the forced apology--ugly. That is not at all
what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a place where feelings have been worked
through and my child is in a place of desiring reconciliation. An apology can facilitate a
reconciliation. There's no forcing--when given, it comes from their heart. And if my child
has done something wrong to someone, they always want reconciliation. So what I'm really
talking about is my children going from being tied-up-in-knots back to a place where
their emotional energy is flowing again, and wanting to take that flow back into the
relationship. It's always a choice to remain blocked--but I'm helping my kids find ways to
unblock. The result in my husband's family of the inability to unblock is that my MIL
hasn't spoken to her brother in 45 years, over something pretty minor. I don't want to see
that pattern continued.
Every time something happens and my kids reach that place, make an apology and find
acceptance of themselves and from the other person (even better) they realize that their
mistakes are o.k. and fixable and have more trust in themselves.
Joanna
.--- In [email protected], Pam Tellew <pamtellew@...> wrote:
>
>
> <<I worked out the apology thing a long time ago, because there is
> some conventional
> (wisdom) that says not to "make" kids apologize. That confused me,
> because what should
> happen when someone has "wronged" another? I think that wisdom is
> around to avoid the
> ugliness of a forced apology, but it has taken over and confused
> parents about what a
> heartfelt acceptance of responsibility and a healing acceptance of
> apology can look like.>>>
> <<<and I will ask if they are ready to apologize>>>
>
> Maybe this would sound different in person, but I hear an expectation
> of an apology here and, to me, that's not enough choice.
>
> I've always let my kids know that it can be a big help to apologize
> and offered to help them do it if it's something they want to
> do. But I've never made them do it. I think that at this point,
> they see it as a convention that can help break the ice following a
> conflict or mistake, but a convention that can be used insincerely too.
>
> I like your point about "a healing acceptance of apology,"
> though. That's not something that I thought of talking about, the
> graciousness of forgiveness.
>
> Pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
lisa m
thanks for the responses and discussion. trying to process some of
it.... and figure out how to utilize some of your suggestions.
it.... and figure out how to utilize some of your suggestions.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
> extent. -=-
>
> "Disempowered" from controlling others? That's probably good and
> healthy.
>
not disempowered from controlling others, but disempowered, in her own
unique way, bc she vision is not being met and hence she feels
victimized in some way. she is highly, highly sensitive. her intent is
not to control others. her intent is to play out her vision.
somehow i need to show/explain that her vision can and needs to adapt
to others needs some times.
> -=-But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
> friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
> pain and frustration and anger.-=-
>
> Then get her out of there sooner.
>
this can happen immediately after getting together with friends, or
hours into play.
i did forceably remove her from the situation during one of those
episodes i originally wrote about. (i jsut remembered that)
i feel yuchy when i do that. i feel like i am being so forceful and
overstempingly powerful with her during those times (in the way that i
am the larger adult and can forceably move her at my will). perhaps i
need to change my own perspective on that.
>
> -=-I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
> inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
> brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
> used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
> I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
> developmental stage.-=-
>
> Have you practiced breathing and calming with her? If you've ever
> done any meditation, think the breathing benefits of that, but it can
> be done anywhere.
she knows the techniques, but refuses to breath deeply during those
times. i model the behavior for her when i remember. i need to
remember to do it more. she knows of the skills, as we talk about them
when we are calm. but in the moment.... not happening.
>
> It might help her to use my "make the better choice" idea that's
> written up here and there and you could listen to it here:
> http://sandradodd.com/peacefullyparenting (at the bottom). If she
> acts without thinking first, she's just barreling wrecklessly along.
> If she thinks and decides what to do, she'll be better right away.
> And then when you talk to her you could ask "Was the the best think
> you thought to say?" (or do) and you could ask her what other thing
> she considered before she made that decision.
>
> If she gets angry about you expecting her to think before she talks
> or acts, you could tell her you'd rather not take her to such social
> situations if she thinks it's okay to do whatever she wants all the
> time without even thinking about what's kind and good.
i will hopefully be able to dive into this in the next couple days.
i especially like the last sentence. i have *told* her that we will
have to stop going places if she can not be flexible and kind. i tell
her that when we are in the situations. it feels like i am threatening
her when i say that, but i don't know what else to do.
thanks so much for the time you took to write it all out. thanks to
others too.
lisa
Renee
As I was reading this, I was getting more and more excited, thinking
THIS IS WONDERFUL!
And then I read this:
-=-(got this idea from Sandra's writings about helping kids/siblings
with conflict and helping them to "save face")-=-
It would have been more accurate for me to elaborate by saying, after
reading your writing on sibling conflict, I began to explore the idea
and need for the conflicted parties to be able to "save face". Applying
this principle has helped my daughter to be more open and willing to
find solutions and has helped me to be more objective and refrain from
placing blame. And, it has helped our overall relationship too.
Thanks,
Renee
THIS IS WONDERFUL!
And then I read this:
-=-(got this idea from Sandra's writings about helping kids/siblings
with conflict and helping them to "save face")-=-
It would have been more accurate for me to elaborate by saying, after
reading your writing on sibling conflict, I began to explore the idea
and need for the conflicted parties to be able to "save face". Applying
this principle has helped my daughter to be more open and willing to
find solutions and has helped me to be more objective and refrain from
placing blame. And, it has helped our overall relationship too.
Thanks,
Renee
> _,_._,___
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sometimes it's better to let it go and not dwell on something that a
child has done wrong, and focus on how to avoid it in the future. -=-
I think ALL the time avoidance of future occurrence is best.
If sometimes it's better to let it go and not dwell on something,
that seems to also say most of the time it's better NOT to let it go,
and to dwell on it. That doesn't seem right.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
child has done wrong, and focus on how to avoid it in the future. -=-
I think ALL the time avoidance of future occurrence is best.
If sometimes it's better to let it go and not dwell on something,
that seems to also say most of the time it's better NOT to let it go,
and to dwell on it. That doesn't seem right.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Pam--
When you have "wronged" someone in your life--hubby, child, etc.--do
you feel any
responsibility to apologize, or do you see it as optional? That is
the question that I've
asked myself. -=-
With over 1000 people on the list, let's address the group and not
individuals when it's possible.
The question as worded above isn't a good question. It divides the
world oddly.
EVERYthing is optional but death. Taxes? Optional if prison is a
better option.
Buddhists say suffering isn't optional.
"Responsibility" has a target. "Responsible" (answerable to) whom?
"Responsibility to apologize" doesn't sound clear to me. I see
benefits from apologies, on both sides, but there are other
aspects. Catholic doctrine has several levels: Contrition,
confession, and penance. It's not enough to say "sorry" if there's
no contrition.
The act of apologizing, if it's sincere, is a humbling act, and
humility is good for people. There are very few opportunities for
people to feel the emotional sense of humility. Awe and wonder are
close, but not the same.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
If a person is not so sorry that an apology comes welling out
naturally, I think it's too soon for an apology.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When you have "wronged" someone in your life--hubby, child, etc.--do
you feel any
responsibility to apologize, or do you see it as optional? That is
the question that I've
asked myself. -=-
With over 1000 people on the list, let's address the group and not
individuals when it's possible.
The question as worded above isn't a good question. It divides the
world oddly.
EVERYthing is optional but death. Taxes? Optional if prison is a
better option.
Buddhists say suffering isn't optional.
"Responsibility" has a target. "Responsible" (answerable to) whom?
"Responsibility to apologize" doesn't sound clear to me. I see
benefits from apologies, on both sides, but there are other
aspects. Catholic doctrine has several levels: Contrition,
confession, and penance. It's not enough to say "sorry" if there's
no contrition.
The act of apologizing, if it's sincere, is a humbling act, and
humility is good for people. There are very few opportunities for
people to feel the emotional sense of humility. Awe and wonder are
close, but not the same.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
If a person is not so sorry that an apology comes welling out
naturally, I think it's too soon for an apology.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon Foust
Lisa, were you writing about my child? How do you know her?? :) In all seriousness, my child is now 13, but you described her to a T when she was 5. We didn't do everything perfectly and there were times I was COMPLETELY frustrated. Our whole family is SUPER flexible and this poor child was plopped right in the middle! Here are some things I've learned from her:
* she is our barometer - she detects certain atmospheres and stresses that the rest of us miss until it's too late - then we are all stressed out - I've learned to watch her more closely because when she gets inflexible, it's usually a pre-cursor to anxiety so I need to change something (go home if out, slow down our life, etc.)
* that she might lose some friends through her inflexibility and that is a fact of life - not everyone is going to want to put up with it and invite her over; also that there were (are) some combination of friends that she could not blend with for very long. I learned to make playdates with people who had kids that really liked my daughter and were pretty flexible themselves - so there weren't too many bosses! :)
* her inflexibility is going to help her stand by her beliefs keep her dedicated to what she puts her mind to and fulfill her dreams
* as she gets older, and matures emotionally, she is able to flex a lot more! Now that she's a teen, she cares what others think of her and it has helped her to think outside of herself sometimes - it helps her get along with others. However, there are some of her friends that have similar inflexible, bossy personalities and I limit how much time she spends with those friends just because it's too draining on her and taxing on the friendships. These are great people-skills to learn because even as an adult I realize that there are people that I need to limit my time with, but don't want to completely ditch the relationship....I wish I had learned that at her age (it would've kept me out of a lot of trouble!!).
Don't worry, as she grows so will her emotions and abilities.
Take care,
Lisa Meuser <llmeuser@...> wrote:
This is a bit long. Going to start w/ two examples of the inflexible
pattern Kathrynn has going on, and then talk about it a bit. Would
appreciate feedback and suggestions. J
Kathrynn (5) is playing w/ kids, they are going to play a knight and
dragon kinda game. She is dressed as a knight. One of her friends is
dressed as a dragon, but doesnt want to put the wings on. K is upset
bc her friend does not want to be a flying dragon, and thinks she HAS
to be a flying dragon for the game. We try to problem solve,
empathyze, but in the end K is very mad and angry, upset and yelling,
bc the other child will not put the wings on to make her a flying
dragon. K tells me to make the other child put on the wings, or take
the costume off the other girl so that I can be a flying dragon. I
offer to be a flying dragon w/ just the wings. K continues to sob and
yell at me to take the costome from the girl, or force her to wear
the wings. Luckily, the other kids decide to eat some lunch, then the
other girl decides to take off the costume, possibly bc she is tired
of hearing K in the other room sob about it and say mean things.
Later, they are playing knights again. Another boy also wants to be a
knight. We differentiate and make them two different kinds of
knights. K insists that she is the only Knight. No one else is ok
with her idea. She will not yield, and is sobbing and being mean.
I suggest we go outside and look for signs of Spring. This wokrs.
Issue remains.
Later, they are on my friends bed. Half are playing mud fight (pillow
fight) and K wants to lay on the bed w/o kids jumping on it. I
suggest that K can move to another bed. She refuses. She tells
everyone they have to get off the bed. Other kids are not ok with
that. I remind her that weve talked about if she needs some alone
time, she can find a space to her self, but asking everyone else to
leave a space so that she can have alone time may not work. Somehow
that situation gets resolved.
By the end of the day, it is more and more apparent that the kids are
getting tired of kathrynns grumpy responses. They dont understand
it, and they are starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.
I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.
In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.
I know the pattern for her- she sets up a vision of what she wants.
She has always been this way.She sees a game (or something) happening
in one way. And then she expects and demands that it go that way.
When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
extent. And it can spiral from there. She ebbs and flows in how she
manages this pattern. Sometimes she is able to be more flexible and
fluid. But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
pain and frustration and anger.
Any suggestions?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
* she is our barometer - she detects certain atmospheres and stresses that the rest of us miss until it's too late - then we are all stressed out - I've learned to watch her more closely because when she gets inflexible, it's usually a pre-cursor to anxiety so I need to change something (go home if out, slow down our life, etc.)
* that she might lose some friends through her inflexibility and that is a fact of life - not everyone is going to want to put up with it and invite her over; also that there were (are) some combination of friends that she could not blend with for very long. I learned to make playdates with people who had kids that really liked my daughter and were pretty flexible themselves - so there weren't too many bosses! :)
* her inflexibility is going to help her stand by her beliefs keep her dedicated to what she puts her mind to and fulfill her dreams
* as she gets older, and matures emotionally, she is able to flex a lot more! Now that she's a teen, she cares what others think of her and it has helped her to think outside of herself sometimes - it helps her get along with others. However, there are some of her friends that have similar inflexible, bossy personalities and I limit how much time she spends with those friends just because it's too draining on her and taxing on the friendships. These are great people-skills to learn because even as an adult I realize that there are people that I need to limit my time with, but don't want to completely ditch the relationship....I wish I had learned that at her age (it would've kept me out of a lot of trouble!!).
Don't worry, as she grows so will her emotions and abilities.
Take care,
Lisa Meuser <llmeuser@...> wrote:
This is a bit long. Going to start w/ two examples of the inflexible
pattern Kathrynn has going on, and then talk about it a bit. Would
appreciate feedback and suggestions. J
Kathrynn (5) is playing w/ kids, they are going to play a knight and
dragon kinda game. She is dressed as a knight. One of her friends is
dressed as a dragon, but doesnt want to put the wings on. K is upset
bc her friend does not want to be a flying dragon, and thinks she HAS
to be a flying dragon for the game. We try to problem solve,
empathyze, but in the end K is very mad and angry, upset and yelling,
bc the other child will not put the wings on to make her a flying
dragon. K tells me to make the other child put on the wings, or take
the costume off the other girl so that I can be a flying dragon. I
offer to be a flying dragon w/ just the wings. K continues to sob and
yell at me to take the costome from the girl, or force her to wear
the wings. Luckily, the other kids decide to eat some lunch, then the
other girl decides to take off the costume, possibly bc she is tired
of hearing K in the other room sob about it and say mean things.
Later, they are playing knights again. Another boy also wants to be a
knight. We differentiate and make them two different kinds of
knights. K insists that she is the only Knight. No one else is ok
with her idea. She will not yield, and is sobbing and being mean.
I suggest we go outside and look for signs of Spring. This wokrs.
Issue remains.
Later, they are on my friends bed. Half are playing mud fight (pillow
fight) and K wants to lay on the bed w/o kids jumping on it. I
suggest that K can move to another bed. She refuses. She tells
everyone they have to get off the bed. Other kids are not ok with
that. I remind her that weve talked about if she needs some alone
time, she can find a space to her self, but asking everyone else to
leave a space so that she can have alone time may not work. Somehow
that situation gets resolved.
By the end of the day, it is more and more apparent that the kids are
getting tired of kathrynns grumpy responses. They dont understand
it, and they are starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.
I have talked w/ K about flexibility, A LOT. About how being
inflexible ultimately affects her and her friends. I have
brainstormed alternatives, solutions, empathized, held the space,
used shere patience of waiting. I feel we are stuck in something, and
I am mostly thinking it is bc she is going through a major
developmental stage.
In the mean time, do I keep her home? She is extremely social and
loves to be with her friends. And yet is having a hard time working
with the flow of being w/ her friends.
I know the pattern for her- she sets up a vision of what she wants.
She has always been this way.She sees a game (or something) happening
in one way. And then she expects and demands that it go that way.
When it does not, she ultimately feels disempowered, to a certain
extent. And it can spiral from there. She ebbs and flows in how she
manages this pattern. Sometimes she is able to be more flexible and
fluid. But lately it is just painful for me to be a part of- I see my
friend cringe. I see the other kids cringe. I see kathrynn feeling
pain and frustration and anger.
Any suggestions?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-her intent is
not to control others. her intent is to play out her vision.
somehow i need to show/explain that her vision can and needs to adapt
to others needs some times. -=-
She needs to adapt to others' needs ALL of the time. Unless she can
pay people to do what she says (and still, they could resign their
jobs), she needs to make people want to do what she wants, or accept
that they don't want to do it.
You can choose to play her way at length, but you can't expect others
to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
not to control others. her intent is to play out her vision.
somehow i need to show/explain that her vision can and needs to adapt
to others needs some times. -=-
She needs to adapt to others' needs ALL of the time. Unless she can
pay people to do what she says (and still, they could resign their
jobs), she needs to make people want to do what she wants, or accept
that they don't want to do it.
You can choose to play her way at length, but you can't expect others
to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Mar 20, 2008, at 3:28 PM, Joanna Murphy wrote:
that it makes the apologizer feel better.
LOTS of people seem to think everything is made right by an apology.
But an insincere apology is adding insult to injury.
I'm picturing a kid who is frequently overly bossy, demanding,
inflexible, non-empathetic. If she was to "apologize" for her
behavior, but then continue on with that behavior, the apology is
dishonest. I'm not in favor of dishonesty.
If I do something to harm someone, and then I sincerely regret it,
there might be good reason to let them know that I regret it. It might
mean we can continue a friendship or it might mean they won't seek
revenge or some sort of payback.
But, yeah, I am not in favor of apologies if the purpose is to reduce
the remorse felt by the perpetrator. That remorse is a good thing.
Rather than trying to take it away from our kids, better to explore it
with them, to empathize and offer a little sympathy, even. But let
them feel what they feel.
Lots of times I don't apologize, but I do something to make it clear
that I'm sorry we had the problem, whatever it is.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When you have "wronged" someone in your life--hubby, child, etc.--doDepends. There should be a good reason for it - something other than
> you feel any
> responsibility to apologize, or do you see it as optional? That is
> the question that I've
> asked myself.
that it makes the apologizer feel better.
LOTS of people seem to think everything is made right by an apology.
But an insincere apology is adding insult to injury.
I'm picturing a kid who is frequently overly bossy, demanding,
inflexible, non-empathetic. If she was to "apologize" for her
behavior, but then continue on with that behavior, the apology is
dishonest. I'm not in favor of dishonesty.
If I do something to harm someone, and then I sincerely regret it,
there might be good reason to let them know that I regret it. It might
mean we can continue a friendship or it might mean they won't seek
revenge or some sort of payback.
But, yeah, I am not in favor of apologies if the purpose is to reduce
the remorse felt by the perpetrator. That remorse is a good thing.
Rather than trying to take it away from our kids, better to explore it
with them, to empathize and offer a little sympathy, even. But let
them feel what they feel.
Lots of times I don't apologize, but I do something to make it clear
that I'm sorry we had the problem, whatever it is.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If she was to "apologize" for her
behavior, but then continue on with that behavior, the apology is
dishonest. I'm not in favor of dishonesty.-=-
I'm not a Catholic theologian, but I think confession without
contrition is a sin in itself.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
behavior, but then continue on with that behavior, the apology is
dishonest. I'm not in favor of dishonesty.-=-
I'm not a Catholic theologian, but I think confession without
contrition is a sin in itself.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
transform it into understanding that provides the impetus to truly change/prevent a behavior
in the future.
Joanna
> But, yeah, I am not in favor of apologies if the purpose is to reduceExactly! And in feeling into the remorse, with empathy, the perpetrator has a chance to
> the remorse felt by the perpetrator. That remorse is a good thing.
> Rather than trying to take it away from our kids, better to explore it
> with them, to empathize and offer a little sympathy, even. But let
> them feel what they feel.
>
transform it into understanding that provides the impetus to truly change/prevent a behavior
in the future.
Joanna
Shannon Foust
This thread has been very interesting. I am a compulsive apologizer and always have been. My friends will even tell me to stop apologizing for stuff (well, the good friends - there are some that are used to blaming me because I automatically take the blame....maybe they aren't such good friends???) Anyway, I have been working on this and questioning myself as to why I feel the need --- to make ME feel better? To make the other person feel better? To remain liked by the other? Haven't figured it out yet. As you can imagine, since I feel this huge need I have totally put this on my kids and have required apologies, probably even when none were necessary -- I will be thinking more carefully about this. I know they (my kids) have felt put out and/or embarrassed by this at times. I am so glad this topic is being discussed because JUST TONIGHT something came up that I wanted my daughter (16 years old) to apologize to a friend for but I didn't ask her to because I wanted
to get your guys' opinion real quick first. Last weekend we had a 16th birthday party for my daughter and she handled the guest list and all the invites (I usually really control this part because I don't want anyone left out or feeling bad - to the point where people have been invited in the past that have hindered the party atmosphere)...she handed out little flyers and texted and sent Myspace messages to those she thought about and wanted to come. The party was really fun and everyone had a great time. Well, tonight some good friends came over with their daughter and I realized that we completely forgot about inviting her to the party. I was feeling horrible because they all run in a big circle of friends and I'm sure this girl had heard about the party. So I asked my daughter before the friends came over if she remembered to invite this particular girl and she said she didn't remember if she did or not and we both felt bad. My daughter has not apologized to this
girl and I'm not sure if she should or should I encourage my daughter to say something to this girl? The evening felt awkard or it could've just been me perceiving it. Any thoughts???
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to get your guys' opinion real quick first. Last weekend we had a 16th birthday party for my daughter and she handled the guest list and all the invites (I usually really control this part because I don't want anyone left out or feeling bad - to the point where people have been invited in the past that have hindered the party atmosphere)...she handed out little flyers and texted and sent Myspace messages to those she thought about and wanted to come. The party was really fun and everyone had a great time. Well, tonight some good friends came over with their daughter and I realized that we completely forgot about inviting her to the party. I was feeling horrible because they all run in a big circle of friends and I'm sure this girl had heard about the party. So I asked my daughter before the friends came over if she remembered to invite this particular girl and she said she didn't remember if she did or not and we both felt bad. My daughter has not apologized to this
girl and I'm not sure if she should or should I encourage my daughter to say something to this girl? The evening felt awkard or it could've just been me perceiving it. Any thoughts???
Shannon
www.myspace.com/soldout641
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1040601130
www.homeschoolblogger.com/soldout841
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 21, 2008, at 2:00 AM, Shannon Foust wrote:
other side, what it felt like to the people I was apologizing to.
I realized it's very very annoying!
It takes the focus off the person wronged and pulls it to the person
asking for the apology.
It essentially says "I need you to pull yourself out of your misery
and make me feel better."
Imagine you're bumped into and have scattered a bunch of stuff. What
do you want to happen? Do you want the bumper to demand that you make
them feel not bad about what happened? Or would you like them to
*show* that they're sorry with a "Oh, I'm really sorry!" and by
turning their focus to helping you get everything picked back up?
Joyce
> My friends will even tell me to stop apologizing for stuffI used to be an apologizer. Then I started looking at it from the
other side, what it felt like to the people I was apologizing to.
I realized it's very very annoying!
It takes the focus off the person wronged and pulls it to the person
asking for the apology.
It essentially says "I need you to pull yourself out of your misery
and make me feel better."
Imagine you're bumped into and have scattered a bunch of stuff. What
do you want to happen? Do you want the bumper to demand that you make
them feel not bad about what happened? Or would you like them to
*show* that they're sorry with a "Oh, I'm really sorry!" and by
turning their focus to helping you get everything picked back up?
Joyce