beanmommy2

My oldest child is going to be seven in two weeks.

She reads a little bit; for example, she could read a simple sentence
or two with little or no help.

I read to her and her younger sister a lot, and we all enjoy it. For
example, we've read all the Junie B Jones books and last night we
read the first four chapters in Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing.

She sometimes dictates stories to me, and sometimes even illustrates
them, but she doesn't like to do the actual writing herself.

She sometimes writes her "own stuff" ... for example, I'll find a
letter that one of her dolls wrote to another. They may be about 3
sentences long. I can read most of it, but it is mostly phonetic
spelling (ie, "wr" for "were"), no real punctuation, all caps, that
kind of thing.

So my question is ... Should I be DOING more to help her in this
area? I'm concerned that, because I don't want to "teach" or "do
school," I'm instead doing nothing, which may not be good either.

Should I just get out of the way and let things unfold more on their
own, and not do anything else unless she asks?

Should I ... encourage something? Initiate something? Suggest
something? Play certain games with her? Give information and point
out certain things?

I guess what I'm asking is, How much do I get involved, how do I KNOW
how much to get involved, and what kinds of
activities/games/conversations whatever might be helpful at this
point?

Thanks
Jenny

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 18, 2008, at 10:09 AM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> Should I just get out of the way and let things unfold more on their
> own, and not do anything else unless she asks?

Yes, she's fine.

Ask yourself, "Does *she* need to read and write to be better at
being her right now self?"

The only reason to push is if there were some deadline for learning.
But that's a myth. Kids naturally learn to read between 6 and 12. And
some even outside that range.

The best you can do is create a home where her encounters with
reading and writing are positive so she doesn't have anything
standing in her way of reaching out to those as something useful for
her.

You can't make her read or write. But you can make her not want to.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-You can't make her read or write. But you can make her not want
to.-=-

Joyce's quote has been added here:
http://sandradodd.com/reading
and those with questions about reading should poke around there
before thinking any more about how to help a child read.

There's a collection on writing, too:
http://sandradodd.com/writing

Sandra

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Jenny C

> My oldest child is going to be seven in two weeks.
>

> She reads a little bit; for example, she could read a simple
sentence
> or two with little or no help.
>


but she doesn't like to do the actual writing herself.
>


> She sometimes writes her "own stuff" ... for example, I'll find a
> letter that one of her dolls wrote to another. They may be about 3
> sentences long. I can read most of it, but it is mostly phonetic
> spelling (ie, "wr" for "were"), no real punctuation, all caps, that
> kind of thing.
>
> So my question is ... Should I be DOING more to help her in this
> area?

Seven is really young for writing. Just for the clarification,
reading and writing, while lumped together in school, are not
remotely the same thing. Writing and spelling are not remotely the
same thing. Writing could be the physical act of writing or it is
the act of putting ideas in the form of words. Spelling is one
subset of those things, same with punctuation, grammar, etc.

When my oldest, now 13, was 7, she had absolutely no interest in
reading or writing on her own. I read to her a lot. She drew
pictures a lot. She played imagination games a lot. It wasn't that
she couldn't do those things, she didn't have an interest enough to
do those things, other things were much more important at the time.
I watched her develop her mind in other ways.

I wouldn't DO anything to help her with writing. Sure, play with
her, write grocery lists together, write her notes and leave them on
the bathroom mirror, get a huge chalk board and play restaurant and
put the menu up. Those things are all writing and contributing to
writing while doing things more important to a 7yo.

> Should I just get out of the way and let things unfold more on
their
> own, and not do anything else unless she asks?

It's not one or the other. Yes, let things unfold, don't hinder the
process, focus on what she actually enjoys doing. Do things for and
with her, even things she doesn't ask for.

>
> Should I ... encourage something? Initiate something? Suggest
> something? Play certain games with her? Give information and point
> out certain things?
>
> I guess what I'm asking is, How much do I get involved, how do I
KNOW
> how much to get involved, and what kinds of
> activities/games/conversations whatever might be helpful at this
> point?
>
> Thanks
> Jenny
>


First, you need to get school "think" out of your life for
unschooling to really work well. Be involved in real and meaningful
ways to your daughter, not just in readin writin and rithmetic.
Those are schoolish goals, and somehow have become your goals in your
thinking.

Unschooling really works best when the goal is to create happy and
stimulating environments that learning takes place. Lest there be
confusion, that learning that is taking place doesn't have to be what
looks like school.

My daughter went from not writing ANYthing until about 11 or 12, to
writing stories, poems, journals, and lots of them. She types more
than she writes, yet her handwriting is decent enough to read. Her
grammar is good, her spelling is awesome, and she uses punctuation
and caps in appropriate places. All this was learned without any
formal lessons. In order for it to happen "I" had to get rid of the
notion that it was more important than all the other cool stuff that
she was doing and learning.

Focus your energy on what your children are into right now, what they
like right now and expand their worlds in those things. If they like
games, play more games, if they like adventure walks, do more of
those. If they like playing dress up, give them more outfits to
explore. Young childhood is such a fleeting moment in life, why make
it boring and dull by inflicting children with adult held notions of
what is big and important for them to do and know. Give them what
they really want.

Sandra Dodd

Jenny wrote:
"Unschooling really works best when the goal is to create happy and
stimulating environments that learning takes place. Lest there be
confusion, that learning that is taking place doesn't have to be what
looks like school."

And it probably won't look like school, but after a few years it will
look like something much better than the other teens have and know.

The less schoolishness is put on young kids, the better learners they
will become, and the more impressive teens and adults they will be.



http://sandradodd.com/nest



Sandra

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Jenny C

> looks like school."
>
> And it probably won't look like school, but after a few years it
will
> look like something much better than the other teens have and know.
>
> The less schoolishness is put on young kids, the better learners
they
> will become, and the more impressive teens and adults they will be.
>
>

The older my oldest gets, the more and more convinced that what we've
done is working. I have a teen that likes me, values knowledge, and
treats others kindly.

I'm completely convinced that letting kids play is/was the key to
unschooling working. Both my girls are growing up in the same house,
but much differently. We "did" a lot more when my oldest was young.
We went to museums, took classes, did field trips, joined scouts,
etc. Since my older daughter needs very specific kinds of things
now, my younger daughter often tags along. The younger one isn't
doing age related stuff nearly as much as my older daughter, yet I
see her growing and expanding and becoming an awesome person.

So, I've decided it's not so much the "what" that we do, but the
attitude in which we do it. The whole wide world is open, just play
and enjoy it.

Joanna Murphy

Jenny--

I think you've gotten some awesome responses, so I'm just going to say that my son
started reading independently at about 8 12/, and my daughter has just started, although
she and I read together--I read a chapter, then she takes over--at her request at 9. She
kept saying that she wanted to learn to read, and I kept looking for ways to support her in
doing that, but it was clear that she really wasn't ready until now--she just didn't want to
be embarrassed in front of the neighbor kids.

Now that I've been through two reading on their own it baffles me that teachers still think
that they "teach" reading. Don't they have eyes!!?? The same process of the lightbulb
going off must happen for every kid that becomes an independent reader (vs. the kids that
just shut down). They must know how little they really have to do with it--or do they
really think that without all the "pre-reading drills and skills" kids wouldn't ever get there
on their own?

My son did go to a bit of school, but my daughter didn't, so her process of growing was
almost, for me, like waiting for that rich batch of brownies to come out of the oven and
cool down enough to eat! I was so excited to watch it play out for her--and it happened
just like all the other unschooling mamas said it would!! Which has helped me to really
"know"--deep down rather than in my head--where the right path goes and how to
follow it. It's like that feeling when you are driving and getting that feeling like you are
sure intellectually that you're on the right road, but there haven't been any signs in a while
so that doubt creeps in and then you see the sign or landmark and breathe a big sigh and
settle back feeling secure that you're headed the right way.

And that's not even to say that I had any doubt, but reaffirmation can be a great feeling!
And I find myself wondering if the TCS people that really try to follow it to the letter get to
have that feeling. Do they see their kids interacting in the world in ways that give them
the confidence that they are on the right path? From the example of the boy in the
swimming toy that seemed entirely uninterested in interacting with an adult who was
trying to help resolve the situation I have to wonder. (I realize that we don't actually know
that that mom was practicing TCS, but following the practice through seems like it could
easily result in such a situation.)

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-So, I've decided it's not so much the "what" that we do, but the
attitude in which we do it. The whole wide world is open, just play
and enjoy it.-=-

Jenny, this is beautiful. You're writin' up a beautiful storm today.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> Jenny, this is beautiful. You're writin' up a beautiful storm today.
>
> Sandra
>

Thanks Sandra, I've had a lot of huge life changing things happen over
the last couple of months, and somehow things seems different and I
seem to suddenly "get" it, even though I've "got" it before.

A new enlightening of things that I've grown to understand, and re-
understand in new and different ways.

And today is kinda gloomy outside and no body yet wants to get dressed
and do anything, so I'm coming and going back and forth from computer
to dishes, to making someone food, to folding clothes....

Sandra Dodd

-=-Thanks Sandra, I've had a lot of huge life changing things happen
over
the last couple of months, and somehow things seems different and I
seem to suddenly "get" it, even though I've "got" it before.

A new enlightening of things that I've grown to understand, and re-
understand in new and different ways.-=-



Perhaps it's like one of those layers of onion situations.

When people say "I read [whicehver] webpage last year, but..." and I
say "Read it again," I think they might think I'm accusing them of
not having read it, but it's that after using the ideas a while, the
description makes lots more sense.

Whatever it is we're learning--crochet patterns, musical notation,
using crutches, building a fire, making cookies-- hearing
instructions (or reading them) makes VERY little sense at first.
Later it makes more sense. But after trying it and figuring out some
things for ourselves, and then going back and looking at the
directions, they come to life, in color, and they make 3-D sense.



Sandra

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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> I read to her and her younger sister a lot, and we all enjoy it.>>>

Snip

<<<< She sometimes dictates stories to me, >>>>>

Snip

<<<< I'm instead doing nothing>>>>

No your not. There are two somethings. I bet there are more.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Melissa Wiley

>
> Jenny wrote:
>


> Thanks Sandra, I've had a lot of huge life changing things happen over
> the last couple of months, and somehow things seems different and I
> seem to suddenly "get" it, even though I've "got" it before.
>
> A new enlightening of things that I've grown to understand, and re-
> understand in new and different ways.
>

I know exactly what you mean. There's getting (intellectual understanding)
and GETTING (putting ideas into practice). Sandra, your onion metaphor is
apt. I am
getting to deeper layers of understanding all the time. It's a very sweet
and savory
onion and it makes life taste delicious.

Lissa in San Diego, mom of 5
melissawiley.com/blog


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