Terms for parenting and unschooling
carnationsgalore
In one of my previous posts, I was looking for a word to describe my
parenting style and said noncoercive parenting. Sandra asked that I
not use that term and I've seen her say that about other terms as
well. I didn't realize that term was something specific so I googled
it and now see what she means.
On this list, I understand that the ideas of unschooling are discussed
but I'm curious if unschooling is a parenting style or not. Can
unschooling be discussed without including elements of parenting?
My parenting style has always been way different from anyone else I've
met until I met another true unschooling family. I said true
unschooling because I don't count the families I met at homeschooling
park days who considered themselves unschoolers because they allowed
their kids to follow interests only in afternoons or one day per
week. There were lots of those families.
Beth M.
parenting style and said noncoercive parenting. Sandra asked that I
not use that term and I've seen her say that about other terms as
well. I didn't realize that term was something specific so I googled
it and now see what she means.
On this list, I understand that the ideas of unschooling are discussed
but I'm curious if unschooling is a parenting style or not. Can
unschooling be discussed without including elements of parenting?
My parenting style has always been way different from anyone else I've
met until I met another true unschooling family. I said true
unschooling because I don't count the families I met at homeschooling
park days who considered themselves unschoolers because they allowed
their kids to follow interests only in afternoons or one day per
week. There were lots of those families.
Beth M.
Sandra Dodd
-=-On this list, I understand that the ideas of unschooling are
discussed
but I'm curious if unschooling is a parenting style or not. Can
unschooling be discussed without including elements of parenting? -=-
Not on this list, it can't. There are other unschoolers other
places (I don't hang out there and I don't read their stuff) who
claim that unschooling is ONLY academics and other aspects of life
don't need to change. That's not what has worked for the people I've
respected online and whose families I have met and been impressed by.
Years ago there communications problems because people would say
"unschooling" about all manner of more lightly-structured
homeschooling. The arguments lessened when one group decided to call
theirs "eclectic homeschooling" (because they felt they were using
some unschooling and some structure, which some unschoolers
considered "not unschooling"). Because I was coming from such an
attachment parenting background (the way we were living before we
thought about homeschooling at all), and because much of what I had
discovered about how children can learn and be peaceful came from our
food freedoms and not having "a bedtime," I called what I was doing
"radical unschooling." The term had been used before, some, meaning
totally unschooling, even math and reading.
These discussions were around 1985, I think? (Others will remember
numbers and dates better than I do.)
Through lots of daily untangling of what people thought unschooling
was, the full-on academic unschooling got "unschooling," the partial-
kind-of-unschooling got "eclectic" and the also-includes-parenting
got "radical unschooling."
That's my best recollection.
A few years later there were a couple of people who were heavily
involved in NCP, "non-coercive parenting," which came out of some [I
don't know the terminology for it] kind of libertarians from the
U.K. Their ideas had to do with arranging for kids to do whatever
kids wanted to do and to never coerce. They considered persuasion to
be coercion, it seemed. Were they good parents? Were their kids
doing well? None of our business; they wouldn't even say how old
their kids were. It was top secret confidential information. The
philosophy should suffice; no proof was needed.
Having come from La Leche League, where moms nurse babies in front of
other moms and you know the real names of those moms and babies, and
you trusted the information because you saw the proof all around
you, and you saw the evidence of the failures, the only way I wanted
to share my stories was openly that way. I was candid and
forthcoming about what had worked and had not worked.
When NCP people showed up and criticized the fact that we were naming
our children in public, I was not at all inclined to feel ashamed. I
was also not inclined to help them spread a message they were
spreading on a wholly theoretical level. Although a few people did
go to their sites and pick up ideas they liked and used, to overlay
that on the unschooling discussions that were already going on wasn't
helpful. They weren't going to mesh.
I dug a magnet up in my yard the other day. It was stuck to the
shovel. It was two inches long, and thick--half of an old ring
magnet, and had probably been there thirty years. It had lots of
little pieces of iron stuck to it--the iron that's just in the dirt
here, where water has run, and our house was build where water used
to run.
After many years of the idea and the criticism of unschooling being
out in the discussions of the world, it has lots of little pieces of
other things stuck to it. When critics describe unschooling they
pour on the "child-led learning" (which might have come from "child-
led weaning, now that I'm thinking of influences and cling-ons) and
"non-coercive" and other phrases that are particular to something,
but which have baggage in the form of negative history and
unsupportable underpinnings.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
discussed
but I'm curious if unschooling is a parenting style or not. Can
unschooling be discussed without including elements of parenting? -=-
Not on this list, it can't. There are other unschoolers other
places (I don't hang out there and I don't read their stuff) who
claim that unschooling is ONLY academics and other aspects of life
don't need to change. That's not what has worked for the people I've
respected online and whose families I have met and been impressed by.
Years ago there communications problems because people would say
"unschooling" about all manner of more lightly-structured
homeschooling. The arguments lessened when one group decided to call
theirs "eclectic homeschooling" (because they felt they were using
some unschooling and some structure, which some unschoolers
considered "not unschooling"). Because I was coming from such an
attachment parenting background (the way we were living before we
thought about homeschooling at all), and because much of what I had
discovered about how children can learn and be peaceful came from our
food freedoms and not having "a bedtime," I called what I was doing
"radical unschooling." The term had been used before, some, meaning
totally unschooling, even math and reading.
These discussions were around 1985, I think? (Others will remember
numbers and dates better than I do.)
Through lots of daily untangling of what people thought unschooling
was, the full-on academic unschooling got "unschooling," the partial-
kind-of-unschooling got "eclectic" and the also-includes-parenting
got "radical unschooling."
That's my best recollection.
A few years later there were a couple of people who were heavily
involved in NCP, "non-coercive parenting," which came out of some [I
don't know the terminology for it] kind of libertarians from the
U.K. Their ideas had to do with arranging for kids to do whatever
kids wanted to do and to never coerce. They considered persuasion to
be coercion, it seemed. Were they good parents? Were their kids
doing well? None of our business; they wouldn't even say how old
their kids were. It was top secret confidential information. The
philosophy should suffice; no proof was needed.
Having come from La Leche League, where moms nurse babies in front of
other moms and you know the real names of those moms and babies, and
you trusted the information because you saw the proof all around
you, and you saw the evidence of the failures, the only way I wanted
to share my stories was openly that way. I was candid and
forthcoming about what had worked and had not worked.
When NCP people showed up and criticized the fact that we were naming
our children in public, I was not at all inclined to feel ashamed. I
was also not inclined to help them spread a message they were
spreading on a wholly theoretical level. Although a few people did
go to their sites and pick up ideas they liked and used, to overlay
that on the unschooling discussions that were already going on wasn't
helpful. They weren't going to mesh.
I dug a magnet up in my yard the other day. It was stuck to the
shovel. It was two inches long, and thick--half of an old ring
magnet, and had probably been there thirty years. It had lots of
little pieces of iron stuck to it--the iron that's just in the dirt
here, where water has run, and our house was build where water used
to run.
After many years of the idea and the criticism of unschooling being
out in the discussions of the world, it has lots of little pieces of
other things stuck to it. When critics describe unschooling they
pour on the "child-led learning" (which might have come from "child-
led weaning, now that I'm thinking of influences and cling-ons) and
"non-coercive" and other phrases that are particular to something,
but which have baggage in the form of negative history and
unsupportable underpinnings.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> Through lots of daily untangling of what people thoughtThat's really interesting. I have heard those terms within the past
> unschooling was, the full-on academic unschooling
> got "unschooling," the partial-kind-of-unschooling got
> "eclectic" and the also-includes-parenting got "radical
> unschooling."
6 years which is all the time we've been homeschooling. With these
divisions, we'd be considered radical unschoolers. I wasn't really
sure.
When my first child was old enough for school, neither my ex (her
father) nor I wanted her in traditional school. Her father
was/still is a public school teacher. We put her in a Montessori
school and then into a Quaker school which was still similar to the
Montessori style. I hated when he put her in public school for 3rd
grade. He had just married another teacher with 2 kids in the p.s.
system so Claire had to be treated like the others. Then when my
son (from 2nd marriage) was old enough for school, I was so unhappy
and wanted to keep him home. At that time, neither my DH nor I had
even heard of homeschooling (this was in 2001). Halfway through
Kindergarten, I met a homeschooling family at a hardware store and
it changed our lives!
When we first started homeschooling, it still felt weird because we
were recreating school at home. It didn't feel natural. Then when
I learned about unschooling, I knew right away that it was our
style. But I've yo-yo'd between what feels natural and following
the traditional path. It's been quite a journey so far.
Beth M.
m&kpaquette
I�ve been to that site & have issues with it too.
Attachment Parenting, Instinctual Parenting, Natural Parenting?
It might be better to describe how you do parent vs trying to find one term
that fits.
I still don�t know exactly what people are looking for when they ask me what
I �do� as a parent because I have great kids that enjoy life, enjoy being
helpful, have a mind of their own�etc.
What do I do? � I am with them!� I unconsciously model what it is to be
helpful, thoughtful, empathic, to enjoy learning new things.
One of my daughters was in a curling bonspiel and curled very well & her
team won. Other parents said to her, �Awesome, way to go, you won, etc.� She
looked at them and said, �It doesn�t matter that I won, I played my best and
had fun and that is all that matters.� Then she went over to the organizer
(we know her well) and she gave her a big hug and said, �Jane, thanks for
all the hard work you put into the bonspiel, I really appreciate it.� One of
the parents said to me, �How much did you have to pay her to say that!� I
told them I had absolutely nothing to do with it, that she had said that all
on her own. Then the questions are, �What did you do to have a kid like
that?!� Another parent was concerned that because my kids don�t play to win
that they wouldn�t do well in �competition�. How silly. Two of my kids were
in the older age group & won the South-Eastern Ontario Championships, then
two of my kids in the younger age group won in their age group as well. The
first time the same club had kids win in both age groups. First time 4 of
the winners were from the same family. When they were asked to be in the
next year, they said, �No thanks, it was fun but we have other stuff we want
to do instead!�
I just do what I do!!
Kerri, mom to:
Amanda & her partner PC, Emma(16), Maddison(13),
Jonah(11), Saige & Claire(7, identical twin girls, TTTS), foster dd
(7), foster ds(6), my little boy Teagan(4) & GRANDMA to Declan born Jan
29, 2008. PLUS: 2 horses, 1 blind pony, 2 dogs, 3 cats, 1 bunny
rabbit, 2 guinea pigs, 2 rats( one is naked!), 1 dwarf hamster & 1
teddy bear hamster
In one of my previous posts, I was looking for a word to describe my
parenting style and said noncoercive parenting. Sandra asked that I
not use that term and I've seen her say that about other terms as
well. I didn't realize that term was something specific so I googled
it and now see what she means.
On this list, I understand that the ideas of unschooling are discussed
but I'm curious if unschooling is a parenting style or not. Can
unschooling be discussed without including elements of parenting?
My parenting style has always been way different from anyone else I've
met until I met another true unschooling family. I said true
unschooling because I don't count the families I met at homeschooling
park days who considered themselves unschoolers because they allowed
their kids to follow interests only in afternoons or one day per
week. There were lots of those families.
Beth
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12:33 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Attachment Parenting, Instinctual Parenting, Natural Parenting?
It might be better to describe how you do parent vs trying to find one term
that fits.
I still don�t know exactly what people are looking for when they ask me what
I �do� as a parent because I have great kids that enjoy life, enjoy being
helpful, have a mind of their own�etc.
What do I do? � I am with them!� I unconsciously model what it is to be
helpful, thoughtful, empathic, to enjoy learning new things.
One of my daughters was in a curling bonspiel and curled very well & her
team won. Other parents said to her, �Awesome, way to go, you won, etc.� She
looked at them and said, �It doesn�t matter that I won, I played my best and
had fun and that is all that matters.� Then she went over to the organizer
(we know her well) and she gave her a big hug and said, �Jane, thanks for
all the hard work you put into the bonspiel, I really appreciate it.� One of
the parents said to me, �How much did you have to pay her to say that!� I
told them I had absolutely nothing to do with it, that she had said that all
on her own. Then the questions are, �What did you do to have a kid like
that?!� Another parent was concerned that because my kids don�t play to win
that they wouldn�t do well in �competition�. How silly. Two of my kids were
in the older age group & won the South-Eastern Ontario Championships, then
two of my kids in the younger age group won in their age group as well. The
first time the same club had kids win in both age groups. First time 4 of
the winners were from the same family. When they were asked to be in the
next year, they said, �No thanks, it was fun but we have other stuff we want
to do instead!�
I just do what I do!!
Kerri, mom to:
Amanda & her partner PC, Emma(16), Maddison(13),
Jonah(11), Saige & Claire(7, identical twin girls, TTTS), foster dd
(7), foster ds(6), my little boy Teagan(4) & GRANDMA to Declan born Jan
29, 2008. PLUS: 2 horses, 1 blind pony, 2 dogs, 3 cats, 1 bunny
rabbit, 2 guinea pigs, 2 rats( one is naked!), 1 dwarf hamster & 1
teddy bear hamster
In one of my previous posts, I was looking for a word to describe my
parenting style and said noncoercive parenting. Sandra asked that I
not use that term and I've seen her say that about other terms as
well. I didn't realize that term was something specific so I googled
it and now see what she means.
On this list, I understand that the ideas of unschooling are discussed
but I'm curious if unschooling is a parenting style or not. Can
unschooling be discussed without including elements of parenting?
My parenting style has always been way different from anyone else I've
met until I met another true unschooling family. I said true
unschooling because I don't count the families I met at homeschooling
park days who considered themselves unschoolers because they allowed
their kids to follow interests only in afternoons or one day per
week. There were lots of those families.
Beth
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1329 - Release Date: 14/03/2008
12:33 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
I think of it as Relationship Parenting - sort of an outgrowth of
attachment parenting. That's how I think of the "parenting" aspect of
radical unschooling.
-pam
attachment parenting. That's how I think of the "parenting" aspect of
radical unschooling.
-pam
On Mar 15, 2008, at 9:42 AM, m&kpaquette wrote:
>
> Attachment Parenting, Instinctual Parenting, Natural Parenting?
Sandra Dodd
-=The idea of treating others as they would like to be treated seems
like a
little higher-level concept.-=-
I think it's just a tiny tweak.
I treat Kirby as I would like to be treated if I were Kirby. If
I'm going to buy music for him, I buy music he would like instead of
music I would like.
Once parents have been really attending to their children's interests
and needs for a while, I think that becomes second nature.
So when someone says "I have something *better* than "the Golden
Rule," it doesn't seem better to me. It just seems that the person
just lately really understood the Golden Rule.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like a
little higher-level concept.-=-
I think it's just a tiny tweak.
I treat Kirby as I would like to be treated if I were Kirby. If
I'm going to buy music for him, I buy music he would like instead of
music I would like.
Once parents have been really attending to their children's interests
and needs for a while, I think that becomes second nature.
So when someone says "I have something *better* than "the Golden
Rule," it doesn't seem better to me. It just seems that the person
just lately really understood the Golden Rule.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>Years ago there communications problems because people would sayI was going to respond to another subject line, but this made me think of it
>>"unschooling" about all manner of more lightly-structured
>>homeschooling.<<
too...the "Golden Rule" and "Platinum Rule" discussion earlier. While
platinum can be seen as a cold, hard metal (it is warm in warm temperatures
though ;oP ), and gold as softer and more pliable, the principles stated for
each are what resonated very strongly with me. Many years ago, the Golden
Rule shifted my thinking from more selfish and self-centered thinking to a
broader view of people and life. When I began parenting, making the switch
from parenting how I'd like to be parented, to parenting my kids the way
they individually needed me to parent them, was really important to all of
our well-being. Especially having children who were so different from me in
so many ways...I HAD to stretch to respond in ways that weren't natural for
me.
That said, the Golden Rule is expected in our home...respect people,
animals, things, etc., which transfers to not hurting others, etc.
The idea of treating others as they would like to be treated seems like a
little higher-level concept. I think my kids each have a different level of
understanding of it...it has come about through having discussions about
human behavior and why people do the things they do. It has surely helped me
in life and probably has/will them too.
>>A few years later there were a couple of people who were heavilyThis was a light bulb! I had a get-together of unschoolers at my house a
>>involved in NCP, "non-coercive parenting," which came out of some [I
>>don't know the terminology for it] kind of libertarians from the
>>U.K. Their ideas had to do with arranging for kids to do whatever
>>kids wanted to do and to never coerce.<<
couple years ago. Most of us had never met each other in person, though some
had. A bunch of kids were in the pool with a couple of parents. I joined
them. I was playing with a couple of the kids and noticed that one boy was
in the big blow-up ball where four people can get in. He wouldn't let in a
girl who was trying to get in. I saw his mom right there so I hung back,
assuming she would help in some way. She watched with a smile and never said
a word, as the girl, who was shy, started quietly crying. The boy said
things like, "You're not coming in! I don't like you!" while the mom
continued to watch and not say a word.
I went over and said happily, "What's going on?" The girl quietly said she's
been waiting a long time to get in and he won't let her in. I told the boy
that I noticed that my new friend here was looking upset and what was going
on with him and he said, "I don't want her in here," and turned away. I
moved so that I was in front of him again and said, "How come?" He
immediately acted like I was a huge inconvenience. He didn't want to talk to
me. I said, "Are you wanting to be in there alone?" He nodded, I think
seeing that this was an easy way out. Then I said, "I understand you want to
be in there alone, it's really fun! I had this big ball in the pool for
everyone to share, so how much longer would you like to have in there before
we give someone else a turn?" He didn't answer and turned away. I said,
"Well, I know Suzie's really wants a turn, so how does 5 more minutes
sound?" (he was 10 years old). He got out without a word. Had no interest in
working anything out. He clearly didn't want my presence there, didn't give
a hoot about the upset girl...just knew what he wanted and that was all that
mattered. I pleasantly said to the girl, "Looks like he's done! Do you want
me to come in with you?" And she said yes.
I really had no intention of taking sides or setting up animosity...I'm
really good at helping work things out so everyone's happy! I was so puzzled
by the mother's lack of interaction and the child's lack of connection to
anyone. I later learned the parents were libertarian. I didn't know anything
about libertarianism...still don't know much...not really an interest of
mine, though now I'll be googling...and I certainly wouldn't box all
libertarians into one place, but your mention of this history suddenly
brought clarity to that whole situation. Or potential clarity anyway :o)
I don't think that mom was servicing her son very well in that moment.
Jacki
Gold Standard
-=The idea of treating others as they would like to be treated seems
like a
little higher-level concept.-=-
Jacki
like a
little higher-level concept.-=-
>>I think it's just a tiny tweak.Well said!
>>I treat Kirby as I would like to be treated if I were Kirby.<<
Jacki
Ren Allen
~~A few years later there were a couple of people who were heavily
involved in NCP, "non-coercive parenting," which came out of some [I
don't know the terminology for it] kind of libertarians from the
U.K. Their ideas had to do with arranging for kids to do whatever
kids wanted to do and to never coerce.~~
Are you sure that isn't the TCS people? It sounds like the Taking
Children Seriously terminology you're describing. They call it
non-coercive parenting and all, but I've not found any movement that
labels itself NCP.
I consider myself a non-coercive parent and I just blogged about that
topic. But it's not a movement, it's an idea. Coercion is about using
force and manipulation in my book...persuasion and personal boundaries
aren't necessarily coercive.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
involved in NCP, "non-coercive parenting," which came out of some [I
don't know the terminology for it] kind of libertarians from the
U.K. Their ideas had to do with arranging for kids to do whatever
kids wanted to do and to never coerce.~~
Are you sure that isn't the TCS people? It sounds like the Taking
Children Seriously terminology you're describing. They call it
non-coercive parenting and all, but I've not found any movement that
labels itself NCP.
I consider myself a non-coercive parent and I just blogged about that
topic. But it's not a movement, it's an idea. Coercion is about using
force and manipulation in my book...persuasion and personal boundaries
aren't necessarily coercive.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~
So when someone says "I have something *better* than "the Golden
Rule," it doesn't seem better to me. It just seems that the person
just lately really understood the Golden Rule.~~
I agree.
Because when you consider the underlying philosophy of treating people
how you want to be treated, it's about kindess and respect and
esoteric things that are translated into doing what that person
needs/wants.
If I'm going to treat my children with kindness, that will look
different for each of them. They are unique and therefore it varies
quite a bit. It's still about treating them the way *I* want to be
treated....
kindly
respectfully
generously
graciously
etc....
It seems a lower level concept to assume that "do unto others" means
anything less than the BIG parts of "do"...which have to do with
spirit and attitude, not specific actions.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
So when someone says "I have something *better* than "the Golden
Rule," it doesn't seem better to me. It just seems that the person
just lately really understood the Golden Rule.~~
I agree.
Because when you consider the underlying philosophy of treating people
how you want to be treated, it's about kindess and respect and
esoteric things that are translated into doing what that person
needs/wants.
If I'm going to treat my children with kindness, that will look
different for each of them. They are unique and therefore it varies
quite a bit. It's still about treating them the way *I* want to be
treated....
kindly
respectfully
generously
graciously
etc....
It seems a lower level concept to assume that "do unto others" means
anything less than the BIG parts of "do"...which have to do with
spirit and attitude, not specific actions.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Are you sure that isn't the TCS people? It sounds like the Taking
Children Seriously terminology you're describing. They call it
non-coercive parenting and all, but I've not found any movement that
labels itself NCP.-=-
You're right, Ren. When I was writing that I knew they had another
organizational name, and then I spaced looking it up. thanks for the
clarification.
I don't consider myself "coercive," but I don't want to argue with
people about whether persuading one of my kids (or my husband, or a
friend) to QUICKLY do something I will explain in full later is
coercive. <g> They've come to trust me and I hardly ever play that
card, but once a year or so I do.
The other principles by which we live have caused a very non-coercive
home, but that's not the focus of our lives. It's a by-product.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Children Seriously terminology you're describing. They call it
non-coercive parenting and all, but I've not found any movement that
labels itself NCP.-=-
You're right, Ren. When I was writing that I knew they had another
organizational name, and then I spaced looking it up. thanks for the
clarification.
I don't consider myself "coercive," but I don't want to argue with
people about whether persuading one of my kids (or my husband, or a
friend) to QUICKLY do something I will explain in full later is
coercive. <g> They've come to trust me and I hardly ever play that
card, but once a year or so I do.
The other principles by which we live have caused a very non-coercive
home, but that's not the focus of our lives. It's a by-product.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It seems a lower level concept to assume that "do unto others" means
anything less than the BIG parts of "do"...which have to do with
spirit and attitude, not specific actions.-=-
Yes, I think so. It's like there's a rudimentary, Sunday-school
version (tag it with the minimum recitation or understanding or Bible
quote to "prove" you "know it"--very school-grading style), and then
there's the REAL "know" it, proven by demonstrating it effortlessly
in real-life situations.
Someone can read about unschooling every day for a week and be able
to name names of prominent authors and speakers, and quote some
quotes, and write a summary, and in school that might be worth
"credit," and might be called "knowing," but unless that same person
can *DO IT*--can begin to enrich their family's life and stop
worrying and trust and facilitate natural learning, then they don't
"know unschooling."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anything less than the BIG parts of "do"...which have to do with
spirit and attitude, not specific actions.-=-
Yes, I think so. It's like there's a rudimentary, Sunday-school
version (tag it with the minimum recitation or understanding or Bible
quote to "prove" you "know it"--very school-grading style), and then
there's the REAL "know" it, proven by demonstrating it effortlessly
in real-life situations.
Someone can read about unschooling every day for a week and be able
to name names of prominent authors and speakers, and quote some
quotes, and write a summary, and in school that might be worth
"credit," and might be called "knowing," but unless that same person
can *DO IT*--can begin to enrich their family's life and stop
worrying and trust and facilitate natural learning, then they don't
"know unschooling."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Mar 15, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
Connection? I remember hearing the TCS stuff later.
Nancy
> Are you sure that isn't the TCS people? It sounds like the TakingDidn't NCP folks populate the debate forum on AOL's Homeschool
> Children Seriously terminology you're describing. They call it
> non-coercive parenting and all, but I've not found any movement that
> labels itself NCP.
Connection? I remember hearing the TCS stuff later.
Nancy
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
lol
Ria
> Someone can read about unschooling every day for a week and be ableAnd to that, I'll say, "AMEN!"
> to name names of prominent authors and speakers, and quote some
> quotes, and write a summary, and in school that might be worth
> "credit," and might be called "knowing," but unless that same person
> can *DO IT*--can begin to enrich their family's life and stop
> worrying and trust and facilitate natural learning, then they don't
> "know unschooling."
lol
Ria
Pamela Sorooshian
For the Taking Children Seriously people, coercion is defined as "the
psychological state of enacting one idea or impulse while a
conflicting impulse is still active in one's mind."
An example of coercion would be me asking my daughter to turn down her
music and her doing it to be courteous and kind to me, while still
wishing she was listening to it loudly.
To me, that is simply my daughter being her gracious, generous self -
not demanding her own way at all times. But to the TCS people, I
coerced her because I was the cause of putting her into the position
of doing one thing while still holding a different desire in her head.
For years, there was a lot of NCP talk on the old AOL message boards,
particularly. Sarah Lawrence, now Sarah Fitz-Claridge, changed the
name to Taking Children Seriously and started the discussion list. I
was on it for years and participated some, but it is very
philosophical and esoteric in nature, not based on personal
experience, and, to me, not a "natural" way of sharing our
experiences, thoughts, feelings, to help each other be better parents.
NCP and TCS were used pretty much interchangeably for a long time -
but, officially, Taking Children Seriously is the name of the specific
body of thought promoted primarily by Sarah Fitz-Claridge and David
Deustch. Interestingly, they met up through Growing Without Schooling
- Sarah kept nagging the editor, Susannah Sheffer, because they didn't
screen the submissions enough to filter out anything that talked about
coercing children. Susanna introduced Sarah to David Deutsch who had
developed a formal philosophy of noncoercive parenting.
I got a lot from reading their stuff. Gave me food for thought. I
didn't adopt their extreme version - didn't find it reasonable and I
found it very guilt-inducing when I couldn't make it work in real
time. Those days, it was referred to, typically, as NCP. I don't think
the name was changed to Taking Children Seriously until the mid to
late 1990's. I found the proponents to be extremely frustrating to
talk to - they were rigid in their thinking, expressed themselves in
their own made-up vocabulary which often involved making up their own
definitions for common terms. And, bottom line, they refused, on
principle, to talk about their own personal experiences at all -
without that, I found them, quite honestly, too boring. I don't think
many of us learn well through abstract philosophical discussions - we
learn best by sharing stories of our real lives.
-pam
psychological state of enacting one idea or impulse while a
conflicting impulse is still active in one's mind."
An example of coercion would be me asking my daughter to turn down her
music and her doing it to be courteous and kind to me, while still
wishing she was listening to it loudly.
To me, that is simply my daughter being her gracious, generous self -
not demanding her own way at all times. But to the TCS people, I
coerced her because I was the cause of putting her into the position
of doing one thing while still holding a different desire in her head.
For years, there was a lot of NCP talk on the old AOL message boards,
particularly. Sarah Lawrence, now Sarah Fitz-Claridge, changed the
name to Taking Children Seriously and started the discussion list. I
was on it for years and participated some, but it is very
philosophical and esoteric in nature, not based on personal
experience, and, to me, not a "natural" way of sharing our
experiences, thoughts, feelings, to help each other be better parents.
NCP and TCS were used pretty much interchangeably for a long time -
but, officially, Taking Children Seriously is the name of the specific
body of thought promoted primarily by Sarah Fitz-Claridge and David
Deustch. Interestingly, they met up through Growing Without Schooling
- Sarah kept nagging the editor, Susannah Sheffer, because they didn't
screen the submissions enough to filter out anything that talked about
coercing children. Susanna introduced Sarah to David Deutsch who had
developed a formal philosophy of noncoercive parenting.
I got a lot from reading their stuff. Gave me food for thought. I
didn't adopt their extreme version - didn't find it reasonable and I
found it very guilt-inducing when I couldn't make it work in real
time. Those days, it was referred to, typically, as NCP. I don't think
the name was changed to Taking Children Seriously until the mid to
late 1990's. I found the proponents to be extremely frustrating to
talk to - they were rigid in their thinking, expressed themselves in
their own made-up vocabulary which often involved making up their own
definitions for common terms. And, bottom line, they refused, on
principle, to talk about their own personal experiences at all -
without that, I found them, quite honestly, too boring. I don't think
many of us learn well through abstract philosophical discussions - we
learn best by sharing stories of our real lives.
-pam
On Mar 15, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
> I consider myself a non-coercive parent and I just blogged about that
> topic. But it's not a movement, it's an idea. Coercion is about using
> force and manipulation in my book...persuasion and personal boundaries
> aren't necessarily coercive.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***Sarah kept nagging the editor, Susannah Sheffer,***
Oh, man, was she trying to coerce her?<g>
I take my kid seriously. It'd be hard not to. He's a deep thinker, more intellectual than his parents. When your kid's intelligence and maturity surpasses your own by the time he's talking, you pretty much have to take that seriously. <g>
I try not to coerce him and if I have been guilty of it (and I can't think when or if I was) he's been kind enough not to point it out or shame me about it.<g>
I've thought of coerce and manipulate as the same thing. My mom was a great manipulator. She used guilt to get us to do what she wanted us to do. I've tried hard not to do that. So, I didn't say stuff like my mom would have said, "It'd be nice for you to rub your grandmothers feet. You don't know how hard it is to be old but you'll find out someday....And cut her toenails too, you know she can't do it. ( I once asked my brother to hit my hand with a big rock so I wouldn't be asked to trim yellow skyscraper old lady toenails.) (gag.)
But I have also assumed Dylan wanted to do good and helpful things so I never hesitated to ask him to grab a bag of groceries and carry it into the house. We have the kind of relationship though, where I just wouldn't have asked if his hands were already full and he would have said if he couldn't do it for some reason and we'd both be ok with that.
I read some of the TCS stuff seven or eight years ago and found it mostly disgusting. I think it's much more disrespectful of kids to assume they can't be talked to and treated like real people who are going to live on planet Earth with other real people their whole lives.
The non coercive parenting stuff I've read recently seems more reasonable to me but some of it still bugs me. The stuff about assuming no one person's needs are greater than any other person's need bugs me. My mom, who's had two hip replacements and who's losing some of her mobility for other reasons has a greater need to sit in the higher, firmer chair than anyone else. So we hop out of that chair when she wants to sit. Someone who's sick has a greater need to flop on the sofa than someone who's not sick so when the sicko comes into the room we move to a different spot. That's ordinary courtesy and assuming kids don't want to or can't be courteous doesn't seem very respectful of kids.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh, man, was she trying to coerce her?<g>
I take my kid seriously. It'd be hard not to. He's a deep thinker, more intellectual than his parents. When your kid's intelligence and maturity surpasses your own by the time he's talking, you pretty much have to take that seriously. <g>
I try not to coerce him and if I have been guilty of it (and I can't think when or if I was) he's been kind enough not to point it out or shame me about it.<g>
I've thought of coerce and manipulate as the same thing. My mom was a great manipulator. She used guilt to get us to do what she wanted us to do. I've tried hard not to do that. So, I didn't say stuff like my mom would have said, "It'd be nice for you to rub your grandmothers feet. You don't know how hard it is to be old but you'll find out someday....And cut her toenails too, you know she can't do it. ( I once asked my brother to hit my hand with a big rock so I wouldn't be asked to trim yellow skyscraper old lady toenails.) (gag.)
But I have also assumed Dylan wanted to do good and helpful things so I never hesitated to ask him to grab a bag of groceries and carry it into the house. We have the kind of relationship though, where I just wouldn't have asked if his hands were already full and he would have said if he couldn't do it for some reason and we'd both be ok with that.
I read some of the TCS stuff seven or eight years ago and found it mostly disgusting. I think it's much more disrespectful of kids to assume they can't be talked to and treated like real people who are going to live on planet Earth with other real people their whole lives.
The non coercive parenting stuff I've read recently seems more reasonable to me but some of it still bugs me. The stuff about assuming no one person's needs are greater than any other person's need bugs me. My mom, who's had two hip replacements and who's losing some of her mobility for other reasons has a greater need to sit in the higher, firmer chair than anyone else. So we hop out of that chair when she wants to sit. Someone who's sick has a greater need to flop on the sofa than someone who's not sick so when the sicko comes into the room we move to a different spot. That's ordinary courtesy and assuming kids don't want to or can't be courteous doesn't seem very respectful of kids.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think
many of us learn well through abstract philosophical discussions - we
learn best by sharing stories of our real lives.-=-
I agree.
And is a baby being coercive by crying? At which point do they start
to expect their children to be non-coercive? Or is it just for
parent-to-child behavior?
It baffled me because it seemed cold and illogical, and they didn't
seem able or willing to clarify or defend it, just to define it as
right (which made everything else in the world wrong).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
many of us learn well through abstract philosophical discussions - we
learn best by sharing stories of our real lives.-=-
I agree.
And is a baby being coercive by crying? At which point do they start
to expect their children to be non-coercive? Or is it just for
parent-to-child behavior?
It baffled me because it seemed cold and illogical, and they didn't
seem able or willing to clarify or defend it, just to define it as
right (which made everything else in the world wrong).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tara
I later learned the parents were libertarian. I didn't know anything
that people should have the liberty to choose for themselves without
excessive mandates put on them. Politically the saying is "As much
liberty as possible with as little government as necessary."
In the situation you described, I would say that was *not* a
Libertarian issue at all. That was a parenting issue! (A very hands-off
parenting issue.)
I have never heard of libertarianism as anything other than a political
party or social ideal, and especially not a parenting style. But as a
Lib, I always thought that unschooling seemed to be a perfect fit (for
me/us). But I don't think being an involved parent would conflict with
my childs liberty or right to choose. LOL I find it sad if a Lib parent
uses Libertarianism to become uninvolved in their childs life.
~ Tara
> about libertarianism...still don't know much...not really an interestof
> mine, though now I'll be googling...and I certainly wouldn't box allanyway :o)
> libertarians into one place, but your mention of this history suddenly
> brought clarity to that whole situation. Or potential clarity
>Just an FYI: Libertarianism has to do with the social/political stance
> I don't think that mom was servicing her son very well in that moment.
>
> Jacki
>
that people should have the liberty to choose for themselves without
excessive mandates put on them. Politically the saying is "As much
liberty as possible with as little government as necessary."
In the situation you described, I would say that was *not* a
Libertarian issue at all. That was a parenting issue! (A very hands-off
parenting issue.)
I have never heard of libertarianism as anything other than a political
party or social ideal, and especially not a parenting style. But as a
Lib, I always thought that unschooling seemed to be a perfect fit (for
me/us). But I don't think being an involved parent would conflict with
my childs liberty or right to choose. LOL I find it sad if a Lib parent
uses Libertarianism to become uninvolved in their childs life.
~ Tara
Pamela Sorooshian
On Mar 16, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
some ever does anything while still sort of wishing they weren't.
My daughter just asked us for a ride over to her friend's house.
They're going to a musical at the Los Angeles music center.
Arrangements made over the past couple of days. Timing is critical
because of traffic and parking issues. She needs to arrive at her
friend's house just at the right time to meet them.
She said, "I need to get going now." My husband looked at me and I
looked at him. Both of us occupied with something - both kind of
wishing the other would jump up and do it. I said, "Please?" He said,
"Yeah, okay, I'll go." It was just a moment - he did it to be nice to
me. He would have liked to have kept doing what he was doing. So - to
the TCS people he was just coerced. To me, that's part of daily life -
give and take - compromise a little, do things for each other.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I've thought of coerce and manipulate as the same thing.The TCS definition of coerce is broader. Coercion happens every time
some ever does anything while still sort of wishing they weren't.
My daughter just asked us for a ride over to her friend's house.
They're going to a musical at the Los Angeles music center.
Arrangements made over the past couple of days. Timing is critical
because of traffic and parking issues. She needs to arrive at her
friend's house just at the right time to meet them.
She said, "I need to get going now." My husband looked at me and I
looked at him. Both of us occupied with something - both kind of
wishing the other would jump up and do it. I said, "Please?" He said,
"Yeah, okay, I'll go." It was just a moment - he did it to be nice to
me. He would have liked to have kept doing what he was doing. So - to
the TCS people he was just coerced. To me, that's part of daily life -
give and take - compromise a little, do things for each other.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graberamy
<-=The idea of treating others as they would like to be treated seems
like a
little higher-level concept.-=-
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I think it's just a tiny tweak.
I treat Kirby as I would like to be treated if I were Kirby. If
I'm going to buy music for him, I buy music he would like instead of
music I would like.>
I don't know why this concept took me awhile to get...treating others
as they want to be treated, but it did.
I used to always have big birthday celebrations for my hubby, because
that's what I would like someone to do for me. He would always do
something low key for my birthday because that's what he would like
done for himself. After 15 years married we finally switched things
around and do what makes the other person happy. :)
As the kids are getting older (8 & 10), they're definitely broadening
their taste in music, movies, etc. It's nice to be reminded about
this tweak in the golden rule when it comes to remembering their
preferences.
Guitar hero has really changed their taste in music!! I'm personally
enjoying the expansion of their likes and dislikes! I'm sure someday
I'll miss listening to Hannah Montana (bwg)!!
Thanks,
amy g
iowa
like a
little higher-level concept.-=-
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I think it's just a tiny tweak.
I treat Kirby as I would like to be treated if I were Kirby. If
I'm going to buy music for him, I buy music he would like instead of
music I would like.>
I don't know why this concept took me awhile to get...treating others
as they want to be treated, but it did.
I used to always have big birthday celebrations for my hubby, because
that's what I would like someone to do for me. He would always do
something low key for my birthday because that's what he would like
done for himself. After 15 years married we finally switched things
around and do what makes the other person happy. :)
As the kids are getting older (8 & 10), they're definitely broadening
their taste in music, movies, etc. It's nice to be reminded about
this tweak in the golden rule when it comes to remembering their
preferences.
Guitar hero has really changed their taste in music!! I'm personally
enjoying the expansion of their likes and dislikes! I'm sure someday
I'll miss listening to Hannah Montana (bwg)!!
Thanks,
amy g
iowa
Bob Collier
LOL
I was a member of the TCS online group for a while about four years
ago. There was a thread one time about picky eaters. Various parents
were seeking reassurance that it was okay to allow their children to
eat whatever they liked. I posted a reply in which I described the
then exceedingly narrow range of foods my son preferred to eat and
wrote that he was healthy anyway. I got a very stern email from one of
the group administrators telling me I'd "violated" the TCS rule that
we don't talk about our children.
So I wrote back to this woman, told her I thought "violated" was a
most extraordinary choice of word, and that, if she expected me to
talk about raising children in an abstract way without ever mentioning
my own children and their lives, I thought that idea sucked and I
wasn't interested in being a member of the group.
I'm afraid I was rather rude to her, but there you go. You win some,
you lose some. :)
Bob
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I was a member of the TCS online group for a while about four years
ago. There was a thread one time about picky eaters. Various parents
were seeking reassurance that it was okay to allow their children to
eat whatever they liked. I posted a reply in which I described the
then exceedingly narrow range of foods my son preferred to eat and
wrote that he was healthy anyway. I got a very stern email from one of
the group administrators telling me I'd "violated" the TCS rule that
we don't talk about our children.
So I wrote back to this woman, told her I thought "violated" was a
most extraordinary choice of word, and that, if she expected me to
talk about raising children in an abstract way without ever mentioning
my own children and their lives, I thought that idea sucked and I
wasn't interested in being a member of the group.
I'm afraid I was rather rude to her, but there you go. You win some,
you lose some. :)
Bob
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> For the Taking Children Seriously people, coercion is defined as "the
> psychological state of enacting one idea or impulse while a
> conflicting impulse is still active in one's mind."
>
> An example of coercion would be me asking my daughter to turn down her
> music and her doing it to be courteous and kind to me, while still
> wishing she was listening to it loudly.
>
> To me, that is simply my daughter being her gracious, generous self -
> not demanding her own way at all times. But to the TCS people, I
> coerced her because I was the cause of putting her into the position
> of doing one thing while still holding a different desire in her head.
>
> For years, there was a lot of NCP talk on the old AOL message boards,
> particularly. Sarah Lawrence, now Sarah Fitz-Claridge, changed the
> name to Taking Children Seriously and started the discussion list. I
> was on it for years and participated some, but it is very
> philosophical and esoteric in nature, not based on personal
> experience, and, to me, not a "natural" way of sharing our
> experiences, thoughts, feelings, to help each other be better parents.
>
> NCP and TCS were used pretty much interchangeably for a long time -
> but, officially, Taking Children Seriously is the name of the specific
> body of thought promoted primarily by Sarah Fitz-Claridge and David
> Deustch. Interestingly, they met up through Growing Without Schooling
> - Sarah kept nagging the editor, Susannah Sheffer, because they didn't
> screen the submissions enough to filter out anything that talked about
> coercing children. Susanna introduced Sarah to David Deutsch who had
> developed a formal philosophy of noncoercive parenting.
>
> I got a lot from reading their stuff. Gave me food for thought. I
> didn't adopt their extreme version - didn't find it reasonable and I
> found it very guilt-inducing when I couldn't make it work in real
> time. Those days, it was referred to, typically, as NCP. I don't think
> the name was changed to Taking Children Seriously until the mid to
> late 1990's. I found the proponents to be extremely frustrating to
> talk to - they were rigid in their thinking, expressed themselves in
> their own made-up vocabulary which often involved making up their own
> definitions for common terms. And, bottom line, they refused, on
> principle, to talk about their own personal experiences at all -
> without that, I found them, quite honestly, too boring. I don't think
> many of us learn well through abstract philosophical discussions - we
> learn best by sharing stories of our real lives.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> > I consider myself a non-coercive parent and I just blogged about that
> > topic. But it's not a movement, it's an idea. Coercion is about using
> > force and manipulation in my book...persuasion and personal boundaries
> > aren't necessarily coercive.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Tara" <organicsis@...> wrote:
politics, but I've never used the word in any other context.
Bob
>Me neither. I describe myself as "Libertarian" when asked about my
>
> In the situation you described, I would say that was *not* a
> Libertarian issue at all. That was a parenting issue! (A very hands-off
> parenting issue.)
>
> I have never heard of libertarianism as anything other than a political
> party or social ideal, and especially not a parenting style.
politics, but I've never used the word in any other context.
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
TCS definition of coercion, my children have been coercing me every
day for years. :)
Bob
>Well, that's a very valid point, isn't it? It seems to me that, by the
>
> And is a baby being coercive by crying? At which point do they start
> to expect their children to be non-coercive? Or is it just for
> parent-to-child behavior?
>
>
TCS definition of coercion, my children have been coercing me every
day for years. :)
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
maturity surpasses your own by the time he's talking, you pretty much
have to take that seriously. <g>
>more intellectual than his parents. When your kid's intelligence and
>>
> I take my kid seriously. It'd be hard not to. He's a deep thinker,
maturity surpasses your own by the time he's talking, you pretty much
have to take that seriously. <g>
>LOL. You too?
>
Sandra Dodd
I was perusing blogs and found one that has no option to comment and
no address for writing to the author (who's only identified as Lisa).
So... If someone wants to write to me on the side and discuss that
that's fine. <g> It must be someone I've corresponded with because I
had the blog link saved.
This is what I wanted to comment on:
=========================
My family's two-fold solution to the learning and sleep dilemma
involve Radical Unschooling.
We Radically Unschool our children's education.
We Radically Unschool our children's sleeping.
=========================
"To radically unschool" as a verb applied to "education" is
debatable, but I'm SURE one can't unschool a child's sleeping.
Without unschooling would any of us be schooling our children's
sleeping?
I would rather have made a comment there, and I don't want to rat the
author out by linking the blog. Maybe it could be a little amended?
I wouldn't care so much if there wasn't a link to one of my pages. I
LIKE being linked, and I love the topic of sleeping, but with my kids
I think of is as our letting them sleep when they're sleepy and get
up when they wake up. It's about choices and awareness of one's own
needs.
I think "because we're radical unschoolers, we've decided to help our
children learn about their own needs by sleeping when they're sleepy"
makes sense.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
no address for writing to the author (who's only identified as Lisa).
So... If someone wants to write to me on the side and discuss that
that's fine. <g> It must be someone I've corresponded with because I
had the blog link saved.
This is what I wanted to comment on:
=========================
My family's two-fold solution to the learning and sleep dilemma
involve Radical Unschooling.
We Radically Unschool our children's education.
We Radically Unschool our children's sleeping.
=========================
"To radically unschool" as a verb applied to "education" is
debatable, but I'm SURE one can't unschool a child's sleeping.
Without unschooling would any of us be schooling our children's
sleeping?
I would rather have made a comment there, and I don't want to rat the
author out by linking the blog. Maybe it could be a little amended?
I wouldn't care so much if there wasn't a link to one of my pages. I
LIKE being linked, and I love the topic of sleeping, but with my kids
I think of is as our letting them sleep when they're sleepy and get
up when they wake up. It's about choices and awareness of one's own
needs.
I think "because we're radical unschoolers, we've decided to help our
children learn about their own needs by sleeping when they're sleepy"
makes sense.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
communicated that to me and we relate much better! I'd call that an
environmental manipulation, he figgered out how to manipulate his words so
to help me support him better. When I keep crashing into the coffee table
with my shin, I manipulate my environment so that it's no longer a threat to
me (i.e. put it somewhere else!) I don't think manipulation is always a bad
or awful thing. I think it may indeed be necessary for evolution to work!
Isn't the whole point of opposable thumbs so we can better manipulate
things?? ::::vbg:::
I try not to coerce him and if I have been guilty of it (and I can't think
coerced by ill-intentioned adults in the Big World. Growing up with *I
gotta, they're an adult* certainly didn't do me or my siblings any favors
(both of them, especially, were preyed upon by neighborhood pedophiles)
A strong sense of autonomy and a firm belief in "Stop means Stop" are far
better tools :)
recommended parental-help stuff. How to Talk does that to me... my kids
laughed and laughed the first time I pulled out one of those scripted
scenes!! I can't sound like me if I'm using their script!! The same with
NVC, I think I can communicate non-violently without a hand-holding (or
mind-holding, as it felt to me!) script and I can Parent Peacefully without
having to know who *owns* that phrase :D
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I take my kid seriously. It'd be hard not to. He's a deep thinker, moreSometimes, I'm not serious enough for my serious-thinking son. He's
> intellectual than his parents. When your kid's intelligence and maturity
> surpasses your own by the time he's talking, you pretty much have to take
> that seriously. <g>
>
communicated that to me and we relate much better! I'd call that an
environmental manipulation, he figgered out how to manipulate his words so
to help me support him better. When I keep crashing into the coffee table
with my shin, I manipulate my environment so that it's no longer a threat to
me (i.e. put it somewhere else!) I don't think manipulation is always a bad
or awful thing. I think it may indeed be necessary for evolution to work!
Isn't the whole point of opposable thumbs so we can better manipulate
things?? ::::vbg:::
I try not to coerce him and if I have been guilty of it (and I can't think
> when or if I was) he's been kind enough not to point it out or shame meI think kids who are coerced by grownups at home are at *HUGE* risk to be
> about it.<g>
>
coerced by ill-intentioned adults in the Big World. Growing up with *I
gotta, they're an adult* certainly didn't do me or my siblings any favors
(both of them, especially, were preyed upon by neighborhood pedophiles)
A strong sense of autonomy and a firm belief in "Stop means Stop" are far
better tools :)
> disrespectful of kids to assume they can't be talked to and treated likeI've found that bad taste in my mouth after reading lots of highly
> real people who are going to live on planet Earth with other real people
> their whole lives.
>
recommended parental-help stuff. How to Talk does that to me... my kids
laughed and laughed the first time I pulled out one of those scripted
scenes!! I can't sound like me if I'm using their script!! The same with
NVC, I think I can communicate non-violently without a hand-holding (or
mind-holding, as it felt to me!) script and I can Parent Peacefully without
having to know who *owns* that phrase :D
> --~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
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Deb Lewis
*** don't think manipulation is always a bad or awful thing. ***
I have always thought of manipulation as that way of saying something that leaves the other guy feeling like he's a bad person if he doesn't do what you want. It works because it's shame or guilt inducing.
It's the "I work and I slave and what thanks do I get" kind of thing.
Just asking for something isn't manipulation if the other guy can say yes or no without feeling like a sack of crap.
Moving furniture is pretty easy because we don't have to think how the footstool will feel about being shoved over yonder but people almost never feel good about being pushed around, emotionally speaking.<g>
***I think kids who are coerced by grownups at home are at *HUGE* risk to be
coerced by ill-intentioned adults in the Big World. ***
Yeah, and probably more likely to be taken advantage of by unscrupulous bosses or coworkers or roommates.
***The same with
NVC, I think I can communicate non-violently without a hand-holding (or
mind-holding, as it felt to me!) script...***
I haven't read much of that nvc stuff but what I did read made me want to kill someone.<g> I'm thinking, "If I'm not punctuating my sentences with a machete blow, I'm being pretty darn peaceful." <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have always thought of manipulation as that way of saying something that leaves the other guy feeling like he's a bad person if he doesn't do what you want. It works because it's shame or guilt inducing.
It's the "I work and I slave and what thanks do I get" kind of thing.
Just asking for something isn't manipulation if the other guy can say yes or no without feeling like a sack of crap.
Moving furniture is pretty easy because we don't have to think how the footstool will feel about being shoved over yonder but people almost never feel good about being pushed around, emotionally speaking.<g>
***I think kids who are coerced by grownups at home are at *HUGE* risk to be
coerced by ill-intentioned adults in the Big World. ***
Yeah, and probably more likely to be taken advantage of by unscrupulous bosses or coworkers or roommates.
***The same with
NVC, I think I can communicate non-violently without a hand-holding (or
mind-holding, as it felt to me!) script...***
I haven't read much of that nvc stuff but what I did read made me want to kill someone.<g> I'm thinking, "If I'm not punctuating my sentences with a machete blow, I'm being pretty darn peaceful." <g>
Deb Lewis
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Ren Allen
~~Didn't NCP folks populate the debate forum on AOL's Homeschool
Connection? I remember hearing the TCS stuff later.~~
I believe you might be thinking of the NVC folks (non-violent
communication) because I know of no movement or label called NCP.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Connection? I remember hearing the TCS stuff later.~~
I believe you might be thinking of the NVC folks (non-violent
communication) because I know of no movement or label called NCP.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
The TCS definition of coerce is broader. Coercion happens every time
some ever does anything while still sort of wishing they weren't.
This idea is interesting (and by interesting I mean ridiculous) to me. I just attended a talk
given by Gordon Neufeld, who wrote Hold On To Your Kids, and he pointed out that a huge
leap in development is evidenced by a child being able to experience and hold the
awareness of conflicting emotions, and that all of the "higher" states such as compassion,
courage, etc. are the result of a conflict between caring and something else. (i.e. Courage
= caring + fear.) It resonated for me that to have a state of conflict is such an important
human condition. I'm wondering if TCS might be a misunderstanding of that state, and
that there might be a belief there that people should always be left to resolve those
conflicts alone? But that's just not how the world is. Even if I strove to never enter into
that process, how can I set things up so that their friends don't, or other adults in their
lives don't? I just don't see how it would be possible without pretty serious sheltering.
To move beyond single impulse and into the ability to maintain complex relationships is
fraught with conflict, and reward, and learning. It's all about give and take, and I wouldn't
want to take the beauty of conflict and resolution away from my children--that would be
a serious disservice.
Joanna
Pamela Sorooshian
On Mar 16, 2008, at 6:41 PM, diana jenner wrote:
communicating more clearly, more succinctly, more efficiently, etc. I
never used their scripts - I never really thought they were there for
me to use as written, but to give really concrete examples of the kind
of communication they were recommending.
I really think NVC (Nonviolent Communication) was intended that way,
too - not for people to end up all sounding scripted and alike, but to
inform their own personal communication with the ideas of NVC. But,
the people involved in it don't seem to much value maintaining their
own personal communication styles, they practice talking in the NVC
style. I can always tell when someone is reading Marshal Rosenberg
(NVC) stuff by how they sound.
So - yeah - I do recommend these as ways to stimulate new thinking
about how to talk to our children. I, for example, learned from the
"How to Talk" book to use way fewer words - just one word is often
enough. I learned not to keep telling kids things they already know. I
learned the "give them in fantasy" idea - which has been really great
fun in my family for many years. This is when a kid wants something
that you just can't immediately provide - like when we're driving
through the desert and a kid wants to buy a cold soda - during the
time it takes to get to the next stop, I might say, "I don't just
want normal soda, let's get a GIANT soda! Let's get one as big as
this car." and so on.
-pam
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> I've found that bad taste in my mouth after reading lots of highlyI read "How to Talk" so many times, though, to help me get the idea of
> recommended parental-help stuff. How to Talk does that to me... my
> kids
> laughed and laughed the first time I pulled out one of those scripted
> scenes!! I can't sound like me if I'm using their script!! The same
> with
> NVC, I think I can communicate non-violently without a hand-holding
> (or
> mind-holding, as it felt to me!) script and I can Parent Peacefully
> without
> having to know who *owns* that phrase :D
communicating more clearly, more succinctly, more efficiently, etc. I
never used their scripts - I never really thought they were there for
me to use as written, but to give really concrete examples of the kind
of communication they were recommending.
I really think NVC (Nonviolent Communication) was intended that way,
too - not for people to end up all sounding scripted and alike, but to
inform their own personal communication with the ideas of NVC. But,
the people involved in it don't seem to much value maintaining their
own personal communication styles, they practice talking in the NVC
style. I can always tell when someone is reading Marshal Rosenberg
(NVC) stuff by how they sound.
So - yeah - I do recommend these as ways to stimulate new thinking
about how to talk to our children. I, for example, learned from the
"How to Talk" book to use way fewer words - just one word is often
enough. I learned not to keep telling kids things they already know. I
learned the "give them in fantasy" idea - which has been really great
fun in my family for many years. This is when a kid wants something
that you just can't immediately provide - like when we're driving
through the desert and a kid wants to buy a cold soda - during the
time it takes to get to the next stop, I might say, "I don't just
want normal soda, let's get a GIANT soda! Let's get one as big as
this car." and so on.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]