mama2392835

Hi all,

I've been home schooling(borderline relaxed/unschooling)my kids- 16,
14, & 11 (I have a 3yo and 1 yo also) for 6 yrs. We have always been
relaxed in our philosophy of "true education" and have been drifting
more and more towards unschooling (mostly by default-----hence my 2
toddlers!)I've read tons of great books on unschooling and I just
love how it all comes together.

I think I must be in "panic mode" though..... my daughter's in the
middle of doing her "Key to Algebra" book 4 (almost done----there are
6 to go)and although she is capable of doing the
algebra(getting almost all, if not all of the answers correct---when
she gets it), she
keeps telling me she doesn't care about it and doesn't see why she
needs to do it. As I said, she can do it, but doesn't seem to retain
it well either . I guess I'm wondering if she's right and I should
just let her quit the algebra. Maybe I'm just paranoid about it
because I HAD to do it in high school and I feel like she should do
it too, just in case she needs it---I know----stupid!. We are going
to put together a homebrewed (sorta traditional--
--how it's presented, at least) transcript at the end. So far she's
accrued about 1-1/4 credits worth of math----pre-algebra and algebra
combined (in 2 years).

Her interests are:photography, cooking, irish
dancing,cats,and piano. I doubt highly she's going to a 4 yr
university---
-probably either a trade school, apprenticeship, or possibly
community college at some point.She probably won't be taking SAT's or
ACT tests either (it would MAJORLY stress her out anyway-----
-she's a very high-strung,emotional,sensitive kid who also has
Asperger's Syndrome....and she's 16....that's hard enough ).
So.....tell me why I'm torturing her
with this math?? (We live in Idaho too, which is completely hands-off
when it comes to homeschoolers)

Someone knock some sense into me...please!

Thanks!

God bless,
Danielle

donnakeeble

> I think I must be in "panic mode" though..... my daughter's in the
> middle of doing her "Key to Algebra" book 4 (almost done----there are
> 6 to go)and although she is capable of doing the
> algebra(getting almost all, if not all of the answers correct---when
> she gets it), she
> keeps telling me she doesn't care about it and doesn't see why she
> needs to do it. As I said, she can do it, but doesn't seem to retain
> it well either . I guess I'm wondering if she's right and I should
> just let her quit the algebra.

Hi Danielle,

Please let her quit the algebra if that is what she wants! If she is
getting the right answers and not "retaining", then she will be able
to jump through this hoop later in life when/if she chooses a
degree/apprenticeship/training program where this is required.

Her interests are:photography, cooking, irish
> dancing,cats,and piano. I doubt highly she's going to a 4 yr
> university---
> -probably either a trade school, apprenticeship, or possibly
> community college at some point.

I teach remedial math at Purdue in Hammond,IN and am a grad student in
math education (go figure...). There are plenty of kids who have been
through the traditional 13 years of public school and still cannot do
basic math. I figure in a cynical kind of way that I certainly cannot
do any worse with unschooling and in a more practical way, that my
children will certainly do better through acquiring mathematical
concepts through living. A concrete example: by knitting, you will
learn the types of patterns and logical thinking skills that are
associated with algebra. Does that mean I will make all my children
learn knitting? Nope. But it is sure a part of why I like knitting as
a math geek - I love to sort out the patterns and create something. I
LOVE math, my husband is a physicist by degree and software developer
by trade - it is hard to let go of what WE thought our children NEEDED
to learn.

>She probably won't be taking SAT's or
> ACT tests either

Have you seen: http://www.fairtest.org/university/optional ? It lists
alternatives to admission for the SAT/ACT. Just wanted to show there
are other options even if she chooses to go the 4 year college route
some day.



> So.....tell me why I'm torturing her
> with this math??

Because YOU think she needs it. There are plenty of mathematical
concepts in everything you listed as her interests. If you let go of
the textbook math, she will have more time to pursue the real life
versions of it.

Take care,
Donna

[email protected]

HI all -

It was written: "I guess I'm wondering if she's right and I should just let her quit the algebra. "

To me, it's not a matter of 'letting her quit Algebra'... it's a matter of stopping the pressure, harrassment, etc. However your 'not letting her quit' is showing up.... To me, you don't get to decide how things go for her... but you do get to decide how you're going to treat her...

So, why are you 'torturing' her? It's my guess that you're afraid.... and it could be that you're afraid for her future or afraid of criticism or afraid of failing her or afraid of losing praise... OR, as has been true in my case, afraid of something totally unrelated and am thus exercising control in an area that is much simpler than facing the other difficulty....

All just guesses and projections... : )

And, the solution? Breathe... chill... do something fun together... and put the books away for a while.... when she's interested/motivate, she can finish those books in a week....or never touch them again.... it's not a big deal....

Good luck!
Jane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mama2392835

Thank you all so much....especially for being pretty "gentle" with me
in your responses.

Yes....I think a lot of the reasons why I suggest she do algebra
(among other things----although I really don't pressure her, I am
pretty low key) is just fear. Math is a huge one for me too. I spent
2 years doing algebra in high school and finally passed with a "B".
Do I remember most of it?? NO WAY!!! So, I had my dh show her how to
do some of it. I think some of the fear, too, is that she doesn't
seem to pursue a lot of "intellectual" kinds of things.....please
don't misunderstand me.....my daughter is very smart, but she just
doesn't pursue things such as history, science, etc (totally
uninterested in most of it). She's content just cooking different
things for our family (which is wonderful), reading magazines & teen
christian fiction,shoppping for clothes, and practicing her irish
dancing. That being said though....she begins comparing herself to
her friends who are homeschooled very traditionally, who are studying
for PSAT's, doing high level math, etc, etc and she starts stressing
out because she's constantly comparing herself to everyone else (and
saying she feels stupid). She has a huge self-confidence problem as
well. I try hard to tell her that she's very smart and that there are
different kinds of smart. Everyone has their own unique and God-given
abilities.

She decided to go ahead and finish her book 4 of her algebra (they
are only about 30-40 pgs long)because she doesn't like to leave
things unfinished. I'll ask her if she wants to take a break after
that and perhaps reevalute in the fall (maybe do some consumer math
or something like that,if she's interested). Maybe I'll sit down with
her and talk to her about what she can see herself doing later on in
her life.

This is the 1st time I will have "graduated" any child of mine and so
I guess I'm a bit nervous, especially if my relatives ask what
college she'll be going to and what not.

Anyway, thank you for your advice....feel free to jump in and add any
more....I could use it.

Take care,
Danielle







--- In [email protected], janesutcliffe@... wrote:
>
> HI all -
>
> It was written: "I guess I'm wondering if she's right and I should
just let her quit the algebra. "
>
> To me, it's not a matter of 'letting her quit Algebra'... it's a
matter of stopping the pressure, harrassment, etc. However your 'not
letting her quit' is showing up.... To me, you don't get to decide
how things go for her... but you do get to decide how you're going to
treat her...
>
> So, why are you 'torturing' her? It's my guess that you're
afraid.... and it could be that you're afraid for her future or
afraid of criticism or afraid of failing her or afraid of losing
praise... OR, as has been true in my case, afraid of something
totally unrelated and am thus exercising control in an area that is
much simpler than facing the other difficulty....
>
> All just guesses and projections... : )
>
> And, the solution? Breathe... chill... do something fun
together... and put the books away for a while.... when she's
interested/motivate, she can finish those books in a week....or never
touch them again.... it's not a big deal....
>
> Good luck!
> Jane
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 2, 2008, at 1:53 PM, mama2392835 wrote:

> I think some of the fear, too, is that she doesn't
> seem to pursue a lot of "intellectual" kinds of things

It will help you ease your fears to see this more clearly. It's not
intellectual things she isn't pursuing. It's things that resemble
school that she isn't pursuing.

Your homework assignment ;-) is to see the intellectual, the
creative, the life skills in what your daughter *is* pursuing.
Creative people people created the things she's interested in.
> she just
> doesn't pursue things such as history, science, etc (totally
> uninterested in most of it)
>

Why should she? That's an honest question. How would it enhance her
right now life? How would a more *academic* pursuit of those enhance
even her future life? I've blissfully forgotten most of what they
tried to cram into me about history in school. I'm fairly confident
that 99% of what I remember of history comes from living life, just
absorbing it from movies and books and jokes and cartoons.

We can't make them learn history (or math or science or literature
or ...) but by forcing it on them we can make them avoid it in real
life.
> That being said though....she begins comparing herself to
> her friends who are homeschooled very traditionally, who are studying
> for PSAT's, doing high level math, etc, etc and she starts stressing
> out because she's constantly comparing herself to everyone else (and
> saying she feels stupid).
>

Part of that might be her age (I forget what age you said she was)
but suspect it might be because *you* don't trust the unschooling
process.

> She has a huge self-confidence problem as
> well. I try hard to tell her that she's very smart and that there are
> different kinds of smart.
>
Sometimes people are asking for reassurance but if that's not
working, rather than arguing with her -- which tends to make people
hold onto what they believe even tighter -- ask her why. Ask her if
she can think of ways to help her feel better. And *you* find ways to
help her feel better. Cooking classes? Offering cooking classes
herself to younger homeschoolers?

> She decided to go ahead and finish her book 4 of her algebra (they
> are only about 30-40 pgs long)because she doesn't like to leave
> things unfinished.
>

It may be a personality thing but it's reinforced in this society
that finishing is good and quitting is bad.

It's a much more useful life skill to learn to assess when something
is taking more from us than it's giving back.

> (maybe do some consumer math
> or something like that,if she's interested)
>

That will just reinforce that she's inadequate. Drop the idea of a
chunk of information you need to get into her. Did you need to get
English into her or did she pull it into her because it was useful
for her in pursuing what she was interested in as a child?

Joyce

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 2, 2008, at 7:34 AM, donnakeeble wrote:

>
> I teach remedial math at Purdue in Hammond,IN and am a grad student in
> math education (go figure...). There are plenty of kids who have been
> through the traditional 13 years of public school and still cannot do
> basic math. I figure in a cynical kind of way that I certainly cannot
> do any worse with unschooling and in a more practical way, that my
> children will certainly do better through acquiring mathematical
> concepts through living.

I don't think it is cynical - it is realistic. I decided early on that
my goal with math would be to at least "do no harm." I'm happy that my
kid didn't end up with deep-seated math anxiety/phobia, like most
schooled people have.

And they can take the remedial math courses and catch up with anything
they've missed if and when the time comes that they they want to do it
for some reason. That's what my kids did/are doing.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mama2392835

Thank you for your very insightful response!

Ughhhhh.....
it's just so conflicting in my mind though. I guess, with my kids, I
want
them to at least know the basics, ie: math (not necessarily algebra),
grammar, spelling, etc. (tools, as I see them)so they CAN pursue
their interests. Does that make sense? I guess, with some kids, they
might pursue the basics on their own, but my kids always needed a
little "push." (doing a spelling and grammar workbook).

I suppose it's a matter of trust and maybe I'm not there completely
because my kids don't always seem motivated by more "academic"
things (or how I perceive as academic). I've been reading more and
more books on unschooling, so
perhaps I'll relax a bit more (which I thought I already was).

This will be the 1st time I will have "graduated" a child of mine and
so I guess this whole thing just makes me nervous. You look at all
the moms who are having their kids preparing to take SAT's and all
the other standardized tests and such (and I know....deep down they
are a bunch of bolony....for lack of a better word)and maybe it makes
me feel like my kids should be doing the same thing(although I don't
tell my kids this). Maybe I'M the one feeling inadaquate and I'm
subconciously passing it on to my kids.

As I said earlier, I will be putting a transcript together (probably
along with a narrative) for her and just wondering what I'll put on
it, if she doesn't complete more "traditional" classes. I know, not
very unschooly of me, but I just think that a more traditional route
might be easier for school people to understand if she does decide to
pursue college at some point. I have read some of Alison Mckee's
books on how to put together portfolios..... but with 5 kids, I don't
know how easy this would be for me to do.

Anyway, sorry for rambling here. I'm just trying to do what's best
for her and just don't know how to go about it all.

Please set my mind straight, because obviously, I still have a lot to
learn.

Thanks!

God bless,
Danielle







--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2008, at 1:53 PM, mama2392835 wrote:
>
> > I think some of the fear, too, is that she doesn't
> > seem to pursue a lot of "intellectual" kinds of things
>
> It will help you ease your fears to see this more clearly. It's
not
> intellectual things she isn't pursuing. It's things that resemble
> school that she isn't pursuing.
>
> Your homework assignment ;-) is to see the intellectual, the
> creative, the life skills in what your daughter *is* pursuing.
> Creative people people created the things she's interested in.
> > she just
> > doesn't pursue things such as history, science, etc (totally
> > uninterested in most of it)
> >
>
> Why should she? That's an honest question. How would it enhance
her
> right now life? How would a more *academic* pursuit of those
enhance
> even her future life? I've blissfully forgotten most of what they
> tried to cram into me about history in school. I'm fairly
confident
> that 99% of what I remember of history comes from living life,
just
> absorbing it from movies and books and jokes and cartoons.
>
> We can't make them learn history (or math or science or literature
> or ...) but by forcing it on them we can make them avoid it in
real
> life.
> > That being said though....she begins comparing herself to
> > her friends who are homeschooled very traditionally, who are
studying
> > for PSAT's, doing high level math, etc, etc and she starts
stressing
> > out because she's constantly comparing herself to everyone else
(and
> > saying she feels stupid).
> >
>
> Part of that might be her age (I forget what age you said she was)
> but suspect it might be because *you* don't trust the unschooling
> process.
>
> > She has a huge self-confidence problem as
> > well. I try hard to tell her that she's very smart and that there
are
> > different kinds of smart.
> >
> Sometimes people are asking for reassurance but if that's not
> working, rather than arguing with her -- which tends to make
people
> hold onto what they believe even tighter -- ask her why. Ask her
if
> she can think of ways to help her feel better. And *you* find ways
to
> help her feel better. Cooking classes? Offering cooking classes
> herself to younger homeschoolers?
>
> > She decided to go ahead and finish her book 4 of her algebra (they
> > are only about 30-40 pgs long)because she doesn't like to leave
> > things unfinished.
> >
>
> It may be a personality thing but it's reinforced in this society
> that finishing is good and quitting is bad.
>
> It's a much more useful life skill to learn to assess when
something
> is taking more from us than it's giving back.
>
> > (maybe do some consumer math
> > or something like that,if she's interested)
> >
>
> That will just reinforce that she's inadequate. Drop the idea of a
> chunk of information you need to get into her. Did you need to get
> English into her or did she pull it into her because it was
useful
> for her in pursuing what she was interested in as a child?
>
> Joyce
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I guess, with my kids, I
want
them to at least know the basics, ie: math (not necessarily algebra),
grammar, spelling, etc. (tools, as I see them)so they CAN pursue
their interests. Does that make sense? -=-

It makes sense that you would state that you guess (with your kids)
you want them (at least)...

Look how qualified that statement was. It just goes on and on. When
one's writing is very tentative and qualified, it probably means her
thought and understanding are even MORE tentative and qualified.



Maybe what you mean to ask is whether you need to give them tools or
whether they can create and discover their own.

Pretend you asked that.

The answer to to the first part is no, you don't need to give them
tools. They can create and discover them on their own.

-=-I've been reading more and more books on unschooling, so perhaps
I'll relax a bit more (which I thought I already was).-=-

http://sandradodd.com/clarity

There's the beginning of an unfinished page. I'm glad you reminded
me of it.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

The two pages above are provided in response to this: "I've been
reading more and more books on unschooling, so perhaps I'll relax a
bit more (which I thought I already was)."

Perhaps you should read fewer books on unschooling and try the things
they recommend.

Unschooling isn't an academic subject that can be learned from
books. There will be a test, but it's a practical test of action and
attitude over a period of time. It's not an easy test; most people
fail, honestly. So if you want a good challenge, see how you can do
at unschooling *really* and not just at reading about it.

If you wanted to dance, how many books about dance would you read
before you started moving around in dancer-like ways?

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

I guess, with some kids, they
might pursue the basics on their own, but my kids always needed a
little "push." (doing a spelling and grammar workbook).

My 12 yo son, who has not "pursued the basics on his own," was watching t.v. with us the
other night, and after seeing some text on the screen paused the show and, out of the blue
said, "Oh, I get it--if a name ends in an "s" then you just add an apostrophe at the end
instead of "apostrophe s." No grammar workbooks or lessons or even a discussion of
possessive anything or other, just life. I can still remember the multiple, boring worksheets I
had to fill out on the very subject!

And the t.v. show we were watching was a reality t.v. show--bottom of the barrel in many
people's books. lol

Joanna

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], "donnakeeble" <donnakeeble@...> wrote:
>She probably won't be taking SAT's or
> ACT tests either

>>Have you seen: http://www.fairtest.org/university/optional ? It lists
alternatives to admission for the SAT/ACT. Just wanted to show there
are other options even if she chooses to go the 4 year college route
some day.<<


I just wanted to pipe up and say that I was accepted to Umass as a 19yrold writing an
essay about myself, my interests and goals...along with a personal interview with a very
nice woman. I never took an ACT or SAT or whatever.

melissa
in italy