Jennifer

Our oldest child is almost seven and is unschooling.

My husband goes through various degrees of fear ...
there are certain things about unschooling that have
always appealed to him, but right now he's going
through one of his "doubt periods."

Today I printed and read a few articles from Sandra's
reading page to him. He liked them, but had some
questions. I told him I would write down some of his
comments and present them to you guys, and he seemed
to like that idea.

Here are some of his comments:

*****************************************************

"Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
something], and then you appreciate it."

****************************************************
"I know from my own experience that there are certain
things people are never going to be *very* good at,
like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

And sometimes they make take you through some
seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
but you trust them, because you know they can take you
somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
get on his own."

******************************************************
"Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"

******************************************************
"Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
It seems like what would maximize learning potential
would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
all structured learning to the wind?"


Thanks so much
Jenny

Visit me and my family at my blog!

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/



____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Sandra Dodd

-=-Today I printed and read a few articles from Sandra's
reading page to him. He liked them, but had some
questions. I told him I would write down some of his
comments and present them to you guys, and he seemed
to like that idea.-=-

We just played a trivia game that involved people reading lists of
clues. It's called "Dumb Ass" and is a new game. Three people at
the table were college grads. One is a graduate of the local public
school and is 23. Holly is 16 and learned to read on her own. She
really cares about spelling and etymology. She was discussing during
the game whether Berlin and Burlesque might be related, and said even
though they probably weren't, it would help her remember the name of
Berlin. That's fine. Marty is 19 and learned to read on his own and
is a classic lefty/mathish/dyslexic kind of guy, though we haven't
talked about that with him. (He knows he's left handed. <bwg>)

The least confident reader was the high school grad who is seven
years older than Holly. He was also pretty abysmal on the geography
questions.

-=-"I know from my own experience that there are certain

things people are never going to be *very* good at,
like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
wiser and knows how to lead you through it. -=-

Or even with it. They can ask for a guide when they want one.

http://sandradodd.com/multipleintelligences

That might be good for him to think about.

-=-And sometimes they make take you through some

seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
but you trust them, because you know they can take you
somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
get on his own."-=-

Sometimes they make you do arpeggios instead of playing real music
and you lose all interest. Sometimes teachers make the subject so
distasteful or boring that the person has a lifelong aversion.
(Okay, way more than "sometimes.")

-=-"Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"-=-

It's not about children "guiding themselves."

http://sandradodd.com/being

http://sandradodd.com/nest

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

-=-"Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,

but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
It seems like what would maximize learning potential
would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
all structured learning to the wind?"-=-

http://sandradodd.com/stages

Along with your husband's analogies, please suggest this:

Swim lessons often start with proof that a person can float.

If a parent doesn't believe in natural learning and clings to the
teaching, he won't believe he can float. If a parent doesn't believe
it, the child won't believe it either. Luckily for those families,
though, the government offers free schools i every neighborhood.



Parents don't have forever to figure this out. Halfway down this
page is something really important:

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit

http://sandradodd.com/ifonly



Sandra














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 21, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> It's called "Dumb Ass" and is a new game.

Always ready with the Google (and a trivia fiend -- Cash Cab is
playing on the TV right now)...
...should that be "Smart Ass"?

Nancy

Kim King

I know that I'm in a significant minority in the
unschooling movement in that I would say that there is
definitely a place for focused and guided learning. I
like a term I heard on another forum: "worldschooing".
I for one am not convinced that my child can, on his
own, find his bliss in such a vast world of
possiblities. What if there's 'something out there'
that he never stumbles upon on his own. I, and many
people wiser than me, have encountered so much more
than he might be able to.

So I've decided to show him as much as I can of those
possibilities. ie 'This is baroque music. Would you
like to learn to play?'; 'Mama goes to karate. Would
you like to try?'; 'Jacob studied fossils with this
book. Wanna have a look together?' That leads to
trying lessons or studying. If he enjoys, we'll
continue, with the help of me or other teachers as
needed. If he doesn't, we stop. It's his thing, not
mine. 'Mama speaks a lot of languages. Do you want to
learn another language?'; 'Wanna go to Cambodia?'
'Hana's family is Sikh. Do you want to know more about
it?' Same idea for traditionally academic 'subjects':
higher math, geography, quantum physics. Same idea for
trades: carpentry, garbage man (he's been fascinated
lately!), doctor (that's what I do).

My idea of uncshooling is perhaps a bit more narrow
than the 'radical'. My son is free to follow his
bliss, to find what moves him and to become as expert
as he chooses (though if I'm honest, I'd really rather
he not go into medicine). I just choose to guide him
to many of the possibilities out there. I feel that I
would be doing him a disservice otherwise.

Expose. Expose. Expose. That's 'worldschooling', IMHO.
Kim

--- Jennifer <beanmommy2@...> wrote:

<snip>
> "Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems
> great,
> but are these people saying that there's NEVER a
> place
> for focused, structured, incremental learning as
> well?
> It seems like what would maximize learning potential
> would be to have the two together. Why would you
> throw
> all structured learning to the wind?"
>
>
> Thanks so much
> Jenny
>
> Visit me and my family at my blog!
>
> http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> mailto:[email protected]
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

> It's called "Dumb Ass" and is a new game.

Always ready with the Google (and a trivia fiend -- Cash Cab is
playing on the TV right now)...
...should that be "Smart Ass"?-=-



Yes. <g>

And there are spaces on the board called Dumb Ass, Smart Ass, and
Hard Ass (the bonus questions). On "Dumb Ass" you aren't allowed to
guess for one card.

I got it for Christmas from my friend Jon who always gives me a
game, and I always give him a movie or a book.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I for one am not convinced that my child can, on his
own, find his bliss in such a vast world of
possiblities. -=-

"Find his bliss" is not a phrase we've been using on this list, so
please try to keep the arguments on the right lists.

Did you mean to suggest that limiting the possibilities will make it
easier for a child to discover interests?

A person doesn't need "a bliss." He needs to live a life of learning
and choices and opportunities. Do you think people on this list have
been recommending against providing information and opportunities?
According to the member list, you joined February 16th.

There are 6 and a half years of messages at the archives. Lots of
the best parts are more easily accessed here:

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

-=-My son is free to follow his bliss, to find what moves him and to
become as expert as he chooses-=-

What if he doesn't want to become an expert in any one thing?\

-=-Expose. Expose. Expose. That's 'worldschooling', IMHO.-=-

Well, it's unschooling as it's been discussed by many of those on
this list for much longer than those 6 and a half years.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meadow Linden

Hi Kim,
I don't really understand what the difference is between what you do and what other unschoolers do. In our family (as well as the other unschooling families we personally know), we also love to introduce new topics and offer classes/experiences to each other. My husband and I (and the kids) are insatiably curious about almost everything and that usually spills all over each other and often leads to people learning insatiably and, like your son, stopping when interest wanes. I'm confused by your saying that your idea of unschooling is more narrow than the 'radical.' I too believe that there is a place for focused and guided learning if that is what the person is into. My daughter loves to go to her art camp where there is structured, guided learning happening...is her embracing this somehow not "radical" unschooling, in your opinion? When she took a basket weaving class, it was very focused and guided and she loved it...how is this not unschooling? Okay, just
curious about the distinctions you were making...enjoying the dialogue, as usual.
Peace,
Meadow

Kim King <kkingmd@...> wrote:
I know that I'm in a significant minority in the
unschooling movement in that I would say that there is
definitely a place for focused and guided learning. I
like a term I heard on another forum: "worldschooing".
I for one am not convinced that my child can, on his
own, find his bliss in such a vast world of
possiblities. What if there's 'something out there'
that he never stumbles upon on his own. I, and many
people wiser than me, have encountered so much more
than he might be able to.

So I've decided to show him as much as I can of those
possibilities. ie 'This is baroque music. Would you
like to learn to play?'; 'Mama goes to karate. Would
you like to try?'; 'Jacob studied fossils with this
book. Wanna have a look together?' That leads to
trying lessons or studying. If he enjoys, we'll
continue, with the help of me or other teachers as
needed. If he doesn't, we stop. It's his thing, not
mine. 'Mama speaks a lot of languages. Do you want to
learn another language?'; 'Wanna go to Cambodia?'
'Hana's family is Sikh. Do you want to know more about
it?' Same idea for traditionally academic 'subjects':
higher math, geography, quantum physics. Same idea for
trades: carpentry, garbage man (he's been fascinated
lately!), doctor (that's what I do).

My idea of uncshooling is perhaps a bit more narrow
than the 'radical'. My son is free to follow his
bliss, to find what moves him and to become as expert
as he chooses (though if I'm honest, I'd really rather
he not go into medicine). I just choose to guide him
to many of the possibilities out there. I feel that I
would be doing him a disservice otherwise.

Expose. Expose. Expose. That's 'worldschooling', IMHO.
Kim

--- Jennifer <beanmommy2@...> wrote:

<snip>
> "Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems
> great,
> but are these people saying that there's NEVER a
> place
> for focused, structured, incremental learning as
> well?
> It seems like what would maximize learning potential
> would be to have the two together. Why would you
> throw
> all structured learning to the wind?"
>
>
> Thanks so much
> Jenny
>
> Visit me and my family at my blog!
>
> http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> mailto:[email protected]
>
>
>






---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kim king

Okay, I've obviously stepped on someone's toes. For that I apologize.

I did in fact join recently, and have also read the archives. you'll notice that I haven't been participating while doing so. I've been online since using the well in orange-on-black in high school, so I try to tread lightly put here. I did not realize that as a new member, I needed to be vetted in order to join in. Again I apologize.

I had no intention to disagree with you, Sandra, in anyway; and have in fact been in agreement with your recent posts. My post was in response to some of the concerns of a poster's husband. The last of those concerns sounded familiar to me, and I thought I'd post my response to it. Perhaps it'd be a point of view he (or someone else) might be interested in hearing.

I intended in no way to suggest that my son would be limited to choosing a path that I or anyone else happened to point out to him. Quite the opposite in fact; whether he chooses one of these areas, or any other as a life path is up to him entirely. My only investment is in hoping to expose him to as much as possible so that he has a myriad of paths from which to choose. I no more want him to be an expert in anything than I want him not to be. I do know however that there are certain paths that he *could* choose which would necessitate something typically considered formal guidance/training/teaching.

Finally, it sounds like "bliss" is a loaded word. I certainly didn't mean anything behind its surface intent. Rest assured that I won't use it again. I'll just live it, irie, and let others do their thing.

Again please accept my apologies to you for having offended you.

Kim

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=-I for one am not convinced that my child can, on his
own, find his bliss in such a vast world of
possiblities. -=-

"Find his bliss" is not a phrase we've been using on this list, so
please try to keep the arguments on the right lists.

Did you mean to suggest that limiting the possibilities will make it
easier for a child to discover interests?

A person doesn't need "a bliss." He needs to live a life of learning
and choices and opportunities. Do you think people on this list have
been recommending against providing information and opportunities?
According to the member list, you joined February 16th.

There are 6 and a half years of messages at the archives. Lots of
the best parts are more easily accessed here:

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

-=-My son is free to follow his bliss, to find what moves him and to
become as expert as he chooses-=-

What if he doesn't want to become an expert in any one thing?\

-=-Expose. Expose. Expose. That's 'worldschooling', IMHO.-=-

Well, it's unschooling as it's been discussed by many of those on
this list for much longer than those 6 and a half years.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

Sandra Dodd

-=-I did not realize that as a new member, I needed to be vetted in
order to join in. -=-

You can join in, but you seemed to be characterizing other
unschoolers on the list as being somehow in opposition to you, and it
didn't seem productive.

-=-I did in fact join recently, and have also read the archives.
you'll notice that I haven't been participating while doing so.-=-

I didn't notice you joined. 1500 members, 36000 old posts... It's
not personal. It's not about you, or me. It's about helping others
on the list understand unschooling in ways that make it easier and
more peaceful for them to do it.

-=-Quite the opposite in fact; whether he chooses one of these areas,
or any other as a life path is up to him entirely. -=-

I don't expect any of my children to choose a life path. I've helped
them have rich lives of learning every day and I foresee no reason
that will ever end for them. I see them draw their schooled friends
into their busy, happy lives. Kids who aren't used to being playful
and casual and funny loosen up around my kids.

-=-I do know however that there are certain paths that he *could*
choose which would necessitate something typically considered formal
guidance/training/teaching.-=-

Sure. No one has ever said anything else.
"Preparing" a young child for the possibility of choosing formal
training ten years out isn't an unschooling help, though; it's a
hindrance.

-=-Finally, it sounds like "bliss" is a loaded word. I certainly
didn't mean anything behind its surface intent. Rest assured that I
won't use it again.-=-

Use it all you want. I don't need rest or assurances. You should
be prepared for people to defend unschooling.
The discussion is all about ideas, and shouldn't be about people.
Try to step back and talk about issues and ideas, not individuals.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

> So I've decided to show him as much as I can of those
> possibilities. ie 'This is baroque music. Would you
> like to learn to play?'; 'Mama goes to karate. Would
> you like to try?'; 'Jacob studied fossils with this
> book. Wanna have a look together?' That leads to
> trying lessons or studying. If he enjoys, we'll
> continue, with the help of me or other teachers as
> needed. >>>>

The Unschooling aspect of this comes in what happens if the child says "no"
to the first question - before "trying the lesson". Is he *free* to say no
before the lesson?

It sounds like these questions turn everything into a lesson or teachable
moment. Sometimes I feel twinges of envy for those moms like Kim whose
children apparently accept their suggestions pleasantly. Jayn (8) would
absolutely reject this kind of conversation! For her it is crucial that
things can be enjoyed in the moment without any pressure to become a study
proposal. She will usually surprise me by coming back to a topic weeks or
months later with some remarks. (Jayn rarely asks questions outright - she
makes statements and then checks if she right.)

A nonchalant "This is baroque music" is probably about as far as I would go.
Her answer to volunteered information, ie that she has not expressed
interest in, is usually, "I don't care." I have learnt that I am far better
off asking her if she interested in hearing more about whatever the issue at
hand is first than getting locked into my need to share my knowledge. (Sigh,
and I like to think I'm soooo darn clever.)

I rarely suggest any type of class to Jayn, because it would take her
initiative away from her. I have offered her lessons in a couple of
situations that are outside of my experience or would benefit from a group
dynamic - including as examples: ballet, martial arts, soccer, gymnastics.
She has tried some, refused others, and said "Not yet" for some. What is
better for Jayn is to see a martial arts class (just to continue one
example) on tv, or through the window if we are passing a studio, or to hear
about what her friends are doing and begin her slow process towards deciding
to try it.

With books, I tend to just leave them out. I don't ever talk about someone
"studying" a topic if I see one of her friends reading something, or that I
am reading myself.

Jayn has an immensely strong drive to be the instigator and controller of
her own life. She will not be pushed from behind and she will not be pulled
along from in front. She will refuse to move *even in the direction she
wants to go*, unless she is being allowed to set the pace. She will push
herself when she is ready much more than any instructor. This is her
personality.

The fastest way that I could remove her interest in music, karate, fossils,
languages, Cambodia, religions, math, geography, quantum physics, carpenty,
medicine or waste management would be to guide her into some lessons that I
thought were the right way for her to learn about these (or any) topics. She
rejects any imposition of structure in her learning - which incidentally
does not mean that she refuses to conform to the protocols of any class
situation she has chosen. If she finds the protocols too onerous, she leaves
the class with my blessing.

In passing I will mention that the most of her personal solidification of
information comes in the form of making fantasy plays or art work about the
topic - eg: watched a couple of shows about mummies - made doll into mummy -
wanted to play Cleopatra - continues to look at shows/books about Egypt
intermittently. No lessons, no need to interfere with this process, no need
to assess the extent of her knowledge about mummies. No arrival at the end
of "the course" either.

Ooh, ooh. Here's another example, which is very current and ongoing. Got a
doll dressed in a kimono (a couple of years ago) - Studio Ghibli movies -
recent rediscovery of said doll - interest in other Japanese dolls (modern
clothing) and collectible dolls of "Memoirs of a Geisha" online - I
remembered I have the movie on dvd - discussions about kimonos, separation
of sisters, dance, geisha as artist, feminism, lack of choices, art
direction, costuming - wants to play geisha (dancing and tea parties!) -
continues to draw versions of ladies in kimonos and makeup. Other potential
topics lurking in that movie - WWII, sumo wrestling, slavery, tea
ceremonies, calligraphy - but I'm not going to push them. She'll come back
to them, or not as suit her. Again no lessons, no interference, no
assessment, no conclusion.

Oh my gosh - I just remembered her Barbie book about an investigation in a
Japanese tea house about an antique teapot! Time to get the book out again,
while the interest is still fresh.

Aside from any kind of information pushing being utterly rejected, I have
found that my broad strewing is rarely as helpful to Jayn as more focussed
strewing connected to interests that she already has demonstrated. For
example, her greatest love is dolls of all kinds. So if I find a book,
place, magazine connected to dolls even tenuously, that is the time when I
will say, "Look at this" and be totally ready to back off if she say "I
don't want to."

When we recently visited the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising
exhibit of 2007 movie costumes, Jayn was far more overtly interested in the
costumes from movies she had seen, and also noticed a costume that had a
reproduction of an antique doll as part of the display. However a few days
later she surprised me with a conversation about some costumes from a
completely different movie. I will say that mostly she was more interested
in meeting up with her friend at the outing, than the location of the
outing.

I have found that the resources available to us in a developed nation are so
wide ranging and broad, that I would never want to restrict Jayn's
explorations to what I know about. More fascinating information comes in to
our house and to her notice via the tv and internet every day than we could
ever cover through any kind of guided tours!

Where I see my greater experience as being valuable to Jayn is not in the
area of suggesting topics for investigation, but that I have a greater
ability to research and gather resources/people on her behalf when she
expresses her interest in something. I can be a vector of knowledge for her,
rather than the definer of what might be valuable.

Personally I have Wikipedia set as one of my home pages, and daily read the
main featured article and most of the "Did you know..." and "On this day"
intros, following some to their pages if they sound interesting. And
sometimes there is an image that strikes me as something Jayn would like to
see, and I invite her to do so.

I imagine that if I were accompanying the invitation to glance and my
computer with a whole lot of pressure (what she would feel as pressure) to
take it further, she would very quickly cease coming over to look.

Truly I don't need to guide Jayn academically. I just try to keep up.

Oh - husband's concerns - there are a couple of lists for dads. They are
generally quiet but he can certainly ask those same questions and get some
dad pov's on them. There are plenty of absolutely committed (to Unschooling
I mean) dads - my dh is one of them and he's on these lists.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/



Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 21, 2008, at 8:14 PM, kim king wrote:

> I've been online since using the well in orange-on-black in high
> school, so I try to tread lightly put here.


Say what?

Nancy

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 21, 2008, at 11:12 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

> > I've been online since using the well in orange-on-black in high
> > school, so I try to tread lightly put here.
>
> Say what?

She's talking about orange-on-black monochrome computer screen
displays - popular in the 80's.

"The Well" started in northern California - it was one of the first
online networking tools, started in the mid-80's, and used to be
called the Whole Earth "Lectronic Link - it is a discussion community.
I think it is run by salon.com these days. You have to pay to join.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

I have a really hard time with the wax on, wax off scene in the movie. It isn't about learning the skill as much as it is about demonstrating blind obedience. If Noriyuki Morita's character had informed Ralph Macchio's character the point of waxing his cars what would have been lost? Only the blind obedience and the demonstration that he would jump through hoops to prove his desire to learn karate. Surely it is better to make an informed choice and not to begin to feel bitter.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

==============
And
sometimes
they
make
take
you
through
some
seemingly
meaningless
things,
like
playing
arpeggios,
but
you
trust
them,
because
you
know
they
can
take
you
somewhere
you
want
to
get
to,
and
then
later
you
can
look
back
and
see
how
it
did
make
sense
...
like
'Wax
on,
wax
off'
from
the
Karate
Kid.
It
may
not
have
made
sense
to
him,
but
he
did
it
because
he
knew
the
teacher
could
help
him
get
somewhere
that
he
couldn't
get
on
his
own."







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

beanmommy2

--- In [email protected], Jennifer <beanmommy2@...>
wrote:

> My husband goes through various degrees of fear ...
> there are certain things about unschooling that have
> always appealed to him, but right now he's going
> through one of his "doubt periods."



Oh, when I woke up this morning I remembered one more thing he said
that I wanted to add:

"I'm afraid [our six year old daughter] isn't being challenged
enough. And the longer that goes on, the harder it's going to be for
her to ever be challenged, or to want to challenge herself. I'm
afraid she's going to eventually start feeling stupid, or like
she "can't" do things, especially if she sees what other kids her age
are working on."


Thanks again. Sandra, I will be sure to print those links and we will
read them together.

Jenny

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 21, 2008, at 9:16 PM, Jennifer wrote:

> *****************************************************
>
> "Sometimes you need somebody to kinda help push you
> through a sticky spot [in learning and/or achieving
> something], and then you appreciate it."
>
> ****************************************************

People who've experienced a positive outcome from being pushed in
some activity they enjoy are certain this is true.

People who've experienced a negative outcome usually don't make
generalization about pushing being universally good or bad. They just
decide they don't like the pusher, don't like what they were being
pushed to do, and don't like being pushed.

So the larger truth in the above statement is that people remember
the positive results and forget the negative results. A not very
scientific process!

In the long run, it's better not to learn to depend on an outside
source to push you past rough spots. It's far more useful for a
lifetime to learn how to push yourself. Kids get that by having
opportunities to discover that by pushing past rough spots, there are
-- usually! -- rewards and a sense of accomplishment beyond the rough
patches. And a really useful skill is being able to assess along the
way and determine when an activity is draining more than it's
returning (or likely to return.) Sometimes we'll guess wrong. But
that's okay. We learn from our mistakes. And when we have the freedom
to drop things and pick them up again, we know we can go back and
pick something up when we feel we're ready for it.

That said, people can *choose* to find someone who will push them,
knowing full well that they're choosing to be pushed and can choose
to drop the pushing any time. (Athletic coaches come to mind.) While
choosing to have someone push you may look the same from the outside
as someone pushing someone else, it has a totally different feel
inside the person. And since all learning happens inside, what's
happening inside the person is more important than what it looks like
from outside.

> "I know from my own experience that there are certain
> things people are never going to be *very* good at,
> like playing an instrument well, or learning how to be
> a good computer programmer, without somebody who is
> wiser and knows how to lead you through it.

This is true. But what we don't know is what *else* they would have
done if they had the freedom. We *can't* know. And because we can't
know, it's scary. If we're in a place we like, it's scary to think we
wouldn't have gotten there except by being pushed.

It's good to take fears out and examine them! Often they encourage us
to do things to avoid worst case scenarios to make us feel comfortable.

There isn't a way around that fear other than face it. To also see
the benefits of unschooling until that becomes way more important
than the unfounded fears.

And unschoolers *do* introduce their kids to a variety of activities.
When the kids show an interest in something, we help them find ways
to explore it. If they want, that can be a mentor who knows an
instrument well or knows programming if that's where they're headed.

Unschooled kids *do* let us know what interests them even when it's
outside of the things we're showing them. They may not jump directly
to programming but they will be asking questions about how people
get things to do things. And it grows from there as we find ways to
answer their questions, and find others to answer their questions
when the need more than we can provide.

> and knows how to lead you through it.

That's one of the sticking points to getting unschooling. When we
only know the success of being led through something, when we see all
that we needed to know in order to get where we ended up, it seems
impossible for that to have happened any other way.

The biggest cure to that is seeing kids who have learned loads about
something just by playing, wanting to learn it, and doing it. Kids
learn HTML, Java and Javascript all by wanting to do stuff with it
without a programmed process leading them from one thing to another.
They just plunge in and learn what they need in the moment. (It's
exactly how I learned HTML.) While the process is chaotic and pretty
much untestable since kids are zigzagging from one bit to another,
reaching for what they need to know in the moment without any
apparent plan to get "everything", the process is exactly the way
they learn to speak English. And that works *way* better than sitting
in a classroom to supposedly learn Spanish!

Unschooling is a lot like the process my daughter is going through
learning guitar. She told her instructor what kind of music she liked
and they both work together on suggesting what she could learn.
Sometimes she picks the songs. Sometimes he does. She likes the blues
but he had a lot more knowledge and helped her a lot on what he
suggested she learned. Sometimes she sees someone doing something and
tells him she'd like to learn it. Sometimes she figures it out on her
own. While he suggests and helps because he has a bigger picture of
music, she's in the driver's seat and can decide which way to
ultimately go.

That sounds scary when we're used to programmed learning! What if she
misses something? Ah, the truth is that programmed learners miss
loads. They just don't know it! The programmed course leads them to
believe it's everything they need. People buy into that. But when you
walk into work that first day, you realize how much you don't know!
And a much more useful skill is knowing that you don't know
everything but having the confidence you can learn it when you need
it -- rather than assuming you need someone to teach it to you :-)

(That's not a perfect analogy since you need to know something to get
the job! But with unschooling, kids are learning all along, getting
what they need to know. It's just a different process. They get to
the job *better* prepared because they've had the freedom to do real
life versions of the job rather than cramming in esoteric information
that might suit the type of job they might want one day.)

The beauty of learning by doing is that we naturally encounter what
we need to know. We come across problems and learn -- as a side
effect -- what we need to get past it. We encounter everything we
need in real life contexts.

Just as it was with learning English. Kids don't set out to learn
English. They set out to get from life what they want. English is a
tool that that use. They don't even consciously try to improve their
tool use. They just get better at it by using it as a side effect of
wanting something else.

That's how unschooling works.

> ******************************************************
> And sometimes they make take you through some
> seemingly meaningless things, like playing arpeggios,
> but you trust them, because you know they can take you
> somewhere you want to get to, and then later you can
> look back and see how it did make sense ... like 'Wax
> on, wax off' from the Karate Kid. It may not have made
> sense to him, but he did it because he knew the
> teacher could help him get somewhere that he couldn't
> get on his own."
>
> ******************************************************

Again, people remember the times that worked for them.

There are far more numerous times when it doesn't work, when it turns
someone off to something they would have enjoyed.

What turned me off to organ was learning songs that I didn't care to
learn because there was supposedly a progression one had to go
through. The teachers went through it and it got them where they are
so the progression must work. Well, actually what it did was filter
out the people that process didn't work for!

My daughter is learning to play the guitar by playing the rock songs
she wants to play. She's motivated to work past the tough spots
because she wants the song. As opposed to the standard method of
cramming in all the stuff kids will one day need to play what they
want. Most kids never get past the cramming part. My daughter gets to
jump right to what she wants and learns what she needs as a side
effect because she wants to.

I agree with Schuyler about the Karate Kid. Actually I like the scene
because I like the feeling of knowing something someone else doesn't
and making them do things to get them to understand not only what I
know but that I'm superior.

It's a power trip.

And that's a good thing to recognize so we can avoid doing it to our
kids because the other end of the power trip is *not* fun. The
learner may learn something, but in the process they learn that
having power rocks and not having power sucks. It can motivate
someone to learn (have power) but it can also motivate people to lord
their power over others because they were deprived of power
themselves. (They become sensei who foist the wax on wax off power
trip onto their students because it was done to them.)

> ******************************************************
> "Can a child really be wise enough to guide himself?"
>
> ******************************************************

If you're imagining unschooling as parents stepping back and children
learning everything on their own through their own discoveries, then no.

If you're imagining children having *the freedom* to explore
according to their interests, then yes.

It's our job as parents to run the parts of the world we think might
interest them into their lives. And to help them reach what they're
trying to reach. And to get out of their way when they're engaged.

Part of unschooling is being on the look out for things a child might
like. Just as you might do for your wife. If you're in a bookstore
and see a book you're pretty sure she'd like, you might buy it for
her or at least tell her. Let her know it exists. We do that for our
kids. But more actively since they can't be as much out in the world
as adults can, won't be scanning lists of classes and events for
something that sounds interesting. We use our superior knowledge of
the world to filter out the stuff that probably won't interest them
so they can see the stuff of potential interests.

It's *really* hard to see how it works when the only model someone is
familiar with is schooled kids who are being made to learn. Schooled
kids tend to avoid stuff that has the patina of school because they
negatively associate those things with school. Unschooled kids don't
have that. Shakespeare and Spongebob are all equal: something to like
or not like today.


> ******************************************************
> "Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems great,
> but are these people saying that there's NEVER a place
> for focused, structured, incremental learning as well?
> It seems like what would maximize learning potential
> would be to have the two together. Why would you throw
> all structured learning to the wind?"
> ******************************************************

The advantage we have is that we know kids (our own and ourselves
too!) who have experienced forced learning and natural learning. We
can see the difference. Those who have only experienced forced
learning can only imagine what the effect of natural learning is by
extrapolating from forced learning.

Doesn't work. What seems likely to happen isn't what actually happens.

As for focused, structured, incremental ... I think you're equating
it with forced learning. The two can be separated! My daughter has
been taking college math classes since she was 13. She likes them. To
her they're fun. Statistics, problem solving, algebra, pre-calculus.
Two her father taught, all of them she and her Dad did the homework
together in the evening. What encouraged her to keep taking classes
was that his goal wasn't for her to learn but to have fun. As a side
effect, she did learn. (Or at least did well on the tests which isn't
necessarily the same thing!)

What my husband does with our daughter is what, I think, people
imagine the ideal of structured learning is. Two people working
together, having fun in discovering things through a structured
course. But it isn't the structured course that comes from. You can't
sit a child down with a course and expect that magic to happen. It
comes from someone loving the material, being enthusiastic and not
caring if the child does the material or not. The goal is to have
fun. If it's not fun, it gets dropped for something that is fun.

Unschooling is about choice.

Another thing about focused, structured, incremental learning is that
the results are a lot easier to see. Structured education is more
satisfying from someone *monitoring* the learning process. (It's also
easier for educators to prove to parents, states and the school board
that learning is taking place.) We *assume* that since we can see the
learning and the progress that it must be superior to learning
organically.

Can you prove that? How would you prove it? With a test that is
designed to test whether structured teaching has in fact resulted in
learning?

Can schools prove that their focused, structured, incremental process
works? They have some kids that come out having done well on tests,
but they also have kids who don't. They assume the process is
responsible for the successes but without a control group how can
they prove that claim? They can say the failures are the fault of the
kids or family life, but, again, without a control group, how can
they prove that claim?

The real proof is in what unschooled kids do as adults I think. We're
the control group. Our kids are learning and moving on in life
without forced learning so it *can't* be the forced learning that is
causing kids to learn in school. Fortunately we're paving the way
with our own kids so you don't have to just trust that this is all
some rosy glass type of deal. :-)

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 22, 2008, at 8:27 AM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> "I'm afraid [our six year old daughter] isn't being challenged
> enough. And the longer that goes on, the harder it's going to be for
> her to ever be challenged, or to want to challenge herself. I'm
> afraid she's going to eventually start feeling stupid, or like
> she "can't" do things, especially if she sees what other kids her age
> are working on."

That's expressed as though a proven fact. Can he prove that's true?

One of the biggest roadblocks to figuring out unschooling is that we
only know schooled kids. People *assume* that schooled kids are just
kids, but school changes them. People truly only know how kids are
who've been through the process of forced learning. People can't know
what the behavior of natural kids are because people haven't met
them. (Well, unschooler have! And we know they do behave differently
than kids who are forced to learn. We know they react to life
differently. We know they make different choices.)

*If* someone sets school up as the yard stick to measure oneself by,
then unschooled kids will feel inadequate.

If someone lives life as though school doesn't exist, then kids are
whole and happy.

It's scary not to have a yard stick but it's a fear that needs to be
examined. Unschoolers know that the yardstick hold kids back because
we can see it. Parents of schooled kids don't know that.

My daughter hasn't been pushed into challenges and yet has always
sought out the challenges that interested her (and avoided the ones
that don't interest her). She isn't one to always be seeking a
challenge. That's just not her personality, but she *does* challenge
herself. Lack of coercion has not hindered that. And I think has
helped her seek out her own challenges because she knows she's free
to drop them anytime she wants. *Knowing* you can give up helps
hugely when you're pushing yourself through because you know you're
choosing to do it.

I think if you limit your vision to challeges of school you'll miss
where she does push herself. If she was in school maybe she's sitting
back choosing the freedom to not be pushed. But she will push herself
when she finds things that are worth *to her* pushing. *That's* what
you need to see. Look at when she's choosing to push herself (when
she's ready) not when she's failing to meet your expectations of when
she should push herself.

My daughter has pushed herself in drawing. She's pushed herself in
running. She's done the National Novel Writing Challenge 4 times
(write a 50,000 word novel in 30 days.) She's pushed herself past
frustrating levels in video games.

Unless you can see where kids are challenging *themselves* on what's
important to them, it's going to be a lot harder to see when they're
working hard to accomplish something.

Try:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

Lots of typical questions responded to. It's written by an engineer
so men often find it more appealing and understandable.

Joyce

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:

> A nonchalant "This is baroque music" is probably about as far as I
would go.



LOL

I would be so intrigued by the sound and feel of the word I'd be
walking around the house saying it for days. It's not a word I get to
use often. <g>

Ed Wendell

and if it's not "baroque" don't fix it ;)

sorry couldn't resist.

Lisa



> A nonchalant "This is baroque music" is probably about as far as I
would go.

LOL

I would be so intrigued by the sound and feel of the word I'd be
walking around the house saying it for days. It's not a word I get to
use often. <g>

.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 22, 2008, at 5:35 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> In the long run, it's better not to learn to depend on an outside
> source to push you past rough spots. It's far more useful for a
> lifetime to learn how to push yourself. Kids get that by having
> opportunities to discover that by pushing past rough spots, there are
> -- usually! -- rewards and a sense of accomplishment beyond the
> rough
> patches. And a really useful skill is being able to assess along the
> way and determine when an activity is draining more than it's
> returning (or likely to return.) Sometimes we'll guess wrong. But
> that's okay. We learn from our mistakes. And when we have the freedom
> to drop things and pick them up again, we know we can go back and
> pick something up when we feel we're ready for it.


And there it is: the ultimate justification for *video games.*

I think I'll print this for my son, who's playing in yet another Smash
Brothers tournament this weekend :-)))

Nancy

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 21, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
> On Feb 21, 2008, at 11:12 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:
>
>>> I've been online since using the well in orange-on-black in high
>>> school, so I try to tread lightly put here.
>>
>> Say what?
>
> She's talking about orange-on-black monochrome computer screen
> displays - popular in the 80's.
>
> "The Well" started in northern California - it was one of the first
> online networking tools, started in the mid-80's, and used to be
> called the Whole Earth "Lectronic Link - it is a discussion community.
> I think it is run by salon.com these days. You have to pay to join.
>
> -pam


Oh, bless you, Pam! I've only been online since AOL and the
Homeschool Connection, far, far past high school and on a full-color
Mac. So, in failing to grok that sentence, I guess I'm not so much a
dinosaur as a lesser geek?

Nancy

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooled kids *do* let us know what interests them even when it's
outside of the things we're showing them. They may not jump directly
to programming but they will be asking questions about how people
get things to do things. And it grows from there as we find ways to
answer their questions, and find others to answer their questions
when the need more than we can provide.-=-

I can't tell all this in full detail. It would take thousands of
words. But a peek:



Today Marty and I were standing in the kitchen talking about carnival
games, traditional games and how they're designed to cheat people and
how someone can be allowed to win (usually a physical manipulation of
the mechanisms) to encourage others in. Then we talked about the
gambling games on NeoPets. A slot machine game he liked has
disappeared in the past week. We talked about how the programming of
those games isn't random, but winning is way more likely than in real
games (especially when real games can make winning even LESS likely
than random).

The mail came. I had forgotten I had ordered some little tricks and
toys from a site I came across looking for something or other.
Wonder Workshops, Retro Toys and Science Amusements.

http://wonderworks.com

So we played with those things, which were also physically
manipulated trick-things.



That all "just happened," but it happened because we've been building
up to it with our whole lives and our whole style of communicating
and living together in a constant state of open curiosity.

The reason I was thinking of the carnival games is that the other day
Holly and I talked about suicide and how many people I've known who
committed suicide. One was a guy named Nick who was in the SCA and
used to work at a carnival and knew which of the games were
Renaissance-old or older, and how to construct and operate them. I
hadn't thought of Nick for a long time but Holly's boyfriend's ex
girlfriend's husband had killed himself in Arizona. Nick, too, was
from Arizona (I didn't mention that to them, but I'm telling you now.)

Once you start looking for connections and welcoming them, it creates
a kind of flow that builds and grows.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim King

Hi Meadow,

Thanks for the opportunity to explore this a bit more,
and for the fodder to do so.

Sorry about the delay in continuing this conversation.
Pesky work got in the way ;-)

I guess I'd say that the distinction is that my
child's life and education are not *completely*
child-led. It's a matter of degree, perhaps? True we
live without curriculum, grades, timelines, rules for
every aspect of life, etc. But we have rules to
*guide* his behavior (mainly around civility and
respect for others, their time, and their
belongings---ie you put used tools back where they
belong, or you lose the privilege of using them).
Educationally, there are a myriad of things that I
expose him to, without waiting for him to express an
interest. I also have decided to require
full-participation in the activities he chooses to
continue: ie if he wants to take musical instrument
lessons, I make practice requisite, etc. If he wants
to take a course, he has to complete assignments.

I guess I don't personally think that the differences
between radical unschoolers and myself are that great,
certainly not nearly as great as those between the
unschooling community and the 'school-at-home'
community. But there are those who would disagree with
me strongly on that point; and in my original post, I
was trying to concede said differences at the outset.

It was my attempt at humility, and it seems to have
fallen flat (in addition to ruffling the feathers of
the list-owner), lol!

What are your impressions of the differences as I've
stated them?

Kim

--- Meadow Linden <meadowblue4@...> wrote:

> Hi Kim,
> I don't really understand what the difference
> is between what you do and what other unschoolers
> do. In our family (as well as the other unschooling
> families we personally know), we also love to
> introduce new topics and offer classes/experiences
> to each other. My husband and I (and the kids) are
> insatiably curious about almost everything and that
> usually spills all over each other and often leads
> to people learning insatiably and, like your son,
> stopping when interest wanes. I'm confused by your
> saying that your idea of unschooling is more narrow
> than the 'radical.' I too believe that there is a
> place for focused and guided learning if that is
> what the person is into. My daughter loves to go to
> her art camp where there is structured, guided
> learning happening...is her embracing this somehow
> not "radical" unschooling, in your opinion? When
> she took a basket weaving class, it was very focused
> and guided and she loved it...how is this not
> unschooling? Okay, just
> curious about the distinctions you were
> making...enjoying the dialogue, as usual.
> Peace,
> Meadow
>
> Kim King <kkingmd@...> wrote:
> I know that I'm in a significant minority
> in the
> unschooling movement in that I would say that there
> is
> definitely a place for focused and guided learning.
> I
> like a term I heard on another forum:
> "worldschooing".
> I for one am not convinced that my child can, on his
> own, find his bliss in such a vast world of
> possiblities. What if there's 'something out there'
> that he never stumbles upon on his own. I, and many
> people wiser than me, have encountered so much more
> than he might be able to.
>
> So I've decided to show him as much as I can of
> those
> possibilities. ie 'This is baroque music. Would you
> like to learn to play?'; 'Mama goes to karate. Would
> you like to try?'; 'Jacob studied fossils with this
> book. Wanna have a look together?' That leads to
> trying lessons or studying. If he enjoys, we'll
> continue, with the help of me or other teachers as
> needed. If he doesn't, we stop. It's his thing, not
> mine. 'Mama speaks a lot of languages. Do you want
> to
> learn another language?'; 'Wanna go to Cambodia?'
> 'Hana's family is Sikh. Do you want to know more
> about
> it?' Same idea for traditionally academic
> 'subjects':
> higher math, geography, quantum physics. Same idea
> for
> trades: carpentry, garbage man (he's been fascinated
> lately!), doctor (that's what I do).
>
> My idea of uncshooling is perhaps a bit more narrow
> than the 'radical'. My son is free to follow his
> bliss, to find what moves him and to become as
> expert
> as he chooses (though if I'm honest, I'd really
> rather
> he not go into medicine). I just choose to guide him
> to many of the possibilities out there. I feel that
> I
> would be doing him a disservice otherwise.
>
> Expose. Expose. Expose. That's 'worldschooling',
> IMHO.
> Kim
>
> --- Jennifer <beanmommy2@...> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > "Organic, unplanned, unexpected learning seems
> > great,
> > but are these people saying that there's NEVER a
> > place
> > for focused, structured, incremental learning as
> > well?
> > It seems like what would maximize learning
> potential
> > would be to have the two together. Why would you
> > throw
> > all structured learning to the wind?"
> >
> >
> > Thanks so much
> > Jenny
> >
> > Visit me and my family at my blog!
> >
> > http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
__________________________________________________________
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> >
>
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > (Yahoo! ID required)
> >
> > mailto:[email protected]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
> fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> mailto:[email protected]
>
>
>

Kim King

--- Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

<snip>

> "Preparing" a young child for the possibility of
> choosing formal
> training ten years out isn't an unschooling help,
> though; it's a
> hindrance.
How can providing a very basic foundation for what the
world is like in this regard be a hinderance to
unschooling? I'm not trying to be facetious or
argumentative, I'm genuinely asking. If I introduce my
son to what would be expected of him should he choose
to participate in my traditional karate school, or in
classical music lessons or in the Arabic class at the
community college---hiearchy, assignments, practice,
tests---I fee that I can continue to follow our
learning style in the home, without compromise. I also
prepare him for what to expect, and to give him
information in that regard that he might not otherwise
access. If I send him to a 'traditional' class without
foreknowledge, my gut feeling is that I'm setting him
up in some way. Maybe that's just me.

> Try to step back and talk about issues and ideas,
> not individuals.

I think the joy of participating in fora such as these
is to hear about the personal experiences of others.
Jennifer's post, to which I initially responded,
included very personal concerns from her husband which
I greatly appreciated. (Thanks Jennifer!) I responded
personally in kind. In reading the archives, I noted a
vast majority of posts/responses which focused on the
personal.

There is a significant difference between personal
observation and response to it, and personal attack. I
genuinely try to refrain from the latter. I'm
especially aware that without the benefit of face to
face contact, what we write can be taken in a manner
which feels attacking to the reader. I try to keep a
very neutral and also passive voice to my posts, as in
my experience, it makes it easier for readers to take
things at face value. But again, if my original post
was read by anyone as being attacking I owe them an
apology. I'm sorry.

Kim

Kim King

Awesome question, Robyn! I think that you point to the
spot where many feel that radical unschooling and
other approaches diverge. You might have already
noticed that I have a bit of a problem with short,
simple answers, lol. Is he free to say "no"? I guess
I'll say: sometimes.

Before signing up for lessons, classes, yes, he does
have the right to refuse. He simply says, 'not
interested' or something to that effect. He does not
yet have the choice to participate in family
activities at this point. If the family is traveling
abroad, he has to come also. I think that this is a
good opportunity for him, something we do often. Will
it change when he's older? Maybe. However.....(isn't
there always a 'but') once he does choose to try an
activity, I do have certain requirements: that he
participate fully (as required by the given activity),
that he practice, for example, if he chooses to take
lessons, that he do the homework and testing required
by any course that he chooses to take. This isn't
technically free, really. Certainly not in the way
others whom I've read or with whom I've spoken
believe. (*not necessarily in this forum; definitely
not in this thread*)

How do you feel?
Kim

--- "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:


> The Unschooling aspect of this comes in what happens
> if the child says "no"
> to the first question - before "trying the lesson".
> Is he *free* to say no
> before the lesson?

Joyce Fetteroll

Kim, this is meant gently. I'm not sure what your point is. This list
is for people to talk about unschooling and help other understand
unschooling.

The ideas you're bringing here won't help people understand
unschooling. They will though draw list members to pull them out and
examine them under the light of unschooling to help show how they
won't build relationships.

The responses will likely help others, but it's likely to drive you
bonkers since it will seem like we're picking on you.

> I guess I'd say that the distinction is that my
> child's life and education are not *completely*
> child-led.
>

Unschooling isn't child led. Though sometimes it looks and gets
described that way!

We run the parts of the world we think might interest them through
their lives, give them access to new ideas and interests. We help
them explore what interests them.

My husband's interests don't lead my life, but they do inspire me to
notice things that he might be interested in.

> But we have rules to
> *guide* his behavior (mainly around civility and
> respect for others, their time, and their
> belongings---ie you put used tools back where they
> belong, or you lose the privilege of using them).
>

There are more respectful ways to help a child be careful with tools
than punishment.

Punishment is more about doing something out of fear. If you create a
relationship where he fears punishment for something he's done or not
done, it's likely he won't come to you when he has a problem. He'll
go to someone else who won't punish him.

Is that what you want?

> Educationally, there are a myriad of things that I
> expose him to, without waiting for him to express an
> interest.
>
In my daughter's life I've introduced many things I think she might
be interested in. And though she learns by living life, what I
introduce is potential new interests, not something that is labeled
for education.

> I also have decided to require
> full-participation in the activities he chooses to
> continue: ie if he wants to take musical instrument
> lessons, I make practice requisite, etc. If he wants
> to take a course, he has to complete assignments.
>

Dictating how someone explores can make them decide not to explore.
If I knew I was trapped in a class that turned out differently than I
had hoped, I'd be gun-shy about taking more classes.

If the goal is to train kids to stick with what they choose, you've
at least sent the message that that value is important to you.
Whether he learns it or not is iffy. Often when we're trying to teach
one lesson, another gets learned. He can learn that it's better to be
powerful than not powerful so that you can be the one telling people
what to do and how to do it. He can learn that his feelings aren't as
important as your values. He can learn that sticking with something
is more important than his thoughts that he'd be better served by
quitting. Among other things.

I don't make my daughter stick with what she tries. And yet when
she's in a situation where people depend on her, she's dependable.
She's on the cross country team and understands the team depends on her.

When we set up a class as if it were practice for sticking with
something, it isn't the same situation at all. KIds don't learn to
stick with something. They learn that mom will make them. They will
learn that they'll feel guilty if they quit.

My daughter chooses to support her team, she chooses to call her
guitar teacher if she can't make a lesson because she's grow up in an
environment where she's treated with respect. So she treats others
with respect. She doesn't just go through the motions of sticking
with something. She can see when she's important to something and
when she's not. She can see when something is taking more than it's
returning and can decide to quit. That's respect *and* empowerment.

> I guess I don't personally think that the differences
> between radical unschoolers and myself are that great,
>

Perhaps on the surface the difference may not be apparent. But your
way of doing things will get in the way of trusting children and
building relationships that we try to help people with.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 22, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Kim King wrote:

> If I introduce my
> son to what would be expected of him should he choose
> to participate in my traditional karate school, or in
> classical music lessons or in the Arabic class at the
> community college---hiearchy, assignments, practice,
> tests---I fee that I can continue to follow our
> learning style in the home, without compromise. I also
> prepare him for what to expect, and to give him
> information in that regard that he might not otherwise
> access. If I send him to a 'traditional' class without
> foreknowledge, my gut feeling is that I'm setting him
> up in some way. Maybe that's just me.

I think what you're trying to do is continue as you are and
understand how unschoolers differ from what you do.

But if you say something counter to unschooling here, the response
you'll get is how that won't be helpful.

Why would you assume we wouldn't let kids know what a class might be
like?

What you've written above sounds way too formal. I wouldn't introduce
my daughter to what's expected of her. I would tell her what the
class might be like. I would let her try the class. If it wasn't
suiting her needs, she could quit. And she didn't start out with
formal classes. She's taken more relaxed classes so she already knows
a lot of the structure already.

While there might be "expectations" I wouldn't see those as things
she must do so much as things that will be part of the class, if you
can see the distinction. Choosing not to do them will be part of
choosing not to continue the class.

> I think the joy of participating in fora such as these
> is to hear about the personal experiences of others.

For *this* forum, unless experiences help someone unschool, they get
held up for examination.

> I noted a
> vast majority of posts/responses which focused on the
> personal.
>

Personal helps when someone has a problem. It's helpful to know a
child is 6 and is afraid of the dark when someone is asking about
bedtimes. We share what the principles of unschooling and respectful
parenting look like in our lives to help people understand the
principles and the philosophy better.

I think maybe you're looking for something that this list doesn't
focus on.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-> "Preparing" a young child for the possibility of
> choosing formal
> training ten years out isn't an unschooling help,
> though; it's a
> hindrance.
How can providing a very basic foundation for what the
world is like in this regard be a hinderance to
unschooling?-=-



Discussing it is one thing.

Living your life and making decisions about what decisions you will
allow him to make based on your thinking that he might or will or
must be in formal training ten years from now, that's a hindrance to
unschooling.



-=-If I introduce my

son to what would be expected of him should he choose
to participate in my traditional karate school, or in
classical music lessons or in the Arabic class at the
community college---hiearchy, assignments, practice,
tests---I fee that I can continue to follow our
learning style in the home, without compromise. -=-

"Introduce" meaning requiring assignments and practice and tests?

That's not conducive to natural learning. It won't kill it dead to
do something on the side. Kirby studied karate for years, and taught
for a couple of years there at the end. He chose it, every time he
went. He always went by choice.

-=-. I also

prepare him for what to expect, and to give him
information in that regard that he might not otherwise
access. If I send him to a 'traditional' class without
foreknowledge, my gut feeling is that I'm setting him
up in some way. Maybe that's just me.-=-

"Maybe that's just me" is one of those "no offense" kind of phrases,
isn't it?

Do you really think there are people on this list who withhold
information from their kids or send them off to a situation with no
briefing or suggestions?

-=-> Try to step back and talk about issues and ideas, not individuals.

--I think the joy of participating in fora such as these
is to hear about the personal experiences of others.-=-

Of course. We are talking about the real experiences of real
unschooling families.

Don't take that personally, and don't make your criticisms personal.

Once the ideas are out there, the ideas are to be discussed as
ideas. Joyce described this very well once:

=============================

The list is about ideas, not about people.

Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")

Joyce
================================

I've told some DEEPLY personal stories and will continue to do so,
but I'm not telling them to get sympathy or approval or friends.
When I question other people's assertions, it's not because I don't
like the other person or I'm trying to make an enemy. Some people
can't tell the difference between opinions and the depths of their
souls. Try to stay with the ideas as ideas, as tools, as clues, and
useful pieces of a big puzzle about optimizing natural learning in
your kids' lives.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 22, 2008, at 1:21 PM, Kim King wrote:

> Before signing up for lessons, classes, yes, he does
> have the right to refuse. He simply says, 'not
> interested' or something to that effect. He does not
> yet have the choice to participate in family
> activities at this point.


Kim, I love looking at yahoo profiles and the websites folks post; is
the child in your posts the one on your home page, who, though my math
ain't great, would be about 2 and a half years old now?

http://web.mac.com/kkingmd/iWeb/Site/Our%20New%20Addition.html

This cutie?

You'll forgive my indulgent smile, I hope. My cuties are 17 and 20
now; I've been unschooling, and discussing unschooling both online and
in person with Sandra, Pam, Joyce and others on this list for about 14
years.


Nancy in San Diego (loved your vacation pics, btw)

Sandra Dodd

Someone wrote:
> I also have decided to require
> full-participation in the activities he chooses to
> continue: ie if he wants to take musical instrument
> lessons, I make practice requisite, etc. If he wants
> to take a course, he has to complete assignments.


Joyce responded:
Dictating how someone explores can make them decide not to explore.
If I knew I was trapped in a class that turned out differently than I
had hoped, I'd be gun-shy about taking more classes.

===========

I had a friend who tried to unschool. She never really got it, though.

She told me of her son, "I don't care what books Dane reads, but if
he starts a book he has to finish it."

Honestly, it's one of the most destructive and harmful ideas I've
ever heard expressed, in light of choices and joy and learning and
freedom.

If what she wanted was to discourage him from even picking up a book
for fear that the first few pages might be more interesting than the
next few, she was straight on the right path.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-If the family is traveling
abroad, he has to come also. I think that this is a
good opportunity for him, something we do often. Will
it change when he's older? Maybe. However.....(isn't
there always a 'but') once he does choose to try an
activity, I do have certain requirements: that he
participate fully (as required by the given activity),
that he practice, for example, if he chooses to take
lessons, that he do the homework and testing required
by any course that he chooses to take. This isn't
technically free, really. Certainly not in the way
others whom I've read or with whom I've spoken
believe. (*not necessarily in this forum; definitely
not in this thread*)-=-

How old is he?

How old have you been unschooling?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]