Combining the best of both? Can it be done?
rachel
Hi,
I'll admit straight off that I don't home school. I am a UK working
mum of a 20 month old girl. I have several friends who do homeschool
and I admire the commitment it takes.
I plan to send Naomi to school at the normal age but want to help her
to see learning as fun and continue learning through all her
activities. I see the point that if you HAVE to do something you might
stop WANTING to.
At present Naomi is with a very good local childminder 3 days a week.
I am home with her the other days and find being a mum to an active,
inquisitive child, harder than a day at work!
I am interested in your opinions and suggestions for what I can do now
with her as a pre-school child; and how to keep her interest in home
based learning once she is also attending school (almost 3 years off).
Thanks
Rachel
I'll admit straight off that I don't home school. I am a UK working
mum of a 20 month old girl. I have several friends who do homeschool
and I admire the commitment it takes.
I plan to send Naomi to school at the normal age but want to help her
to see learning as fun and continue learning through all her
activities. I see the point that if you HAVE to do something you might
stop WANTING to.
At present Naomi is with a very good local childminder 3 days a week.
I am home with her the other days and find being a mum to an active,
inquisitive child, harder than a day at work!
I am interested in your opinions and suggestions for what I can do now
with her as a pre-school child; and how to keep her interest in home
based learning once she is also attending school (almost 3 years off).
Thanks
Rachel
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 20, 2008, at 7:20 PM, rachel wrote:
asked how they could incorporate that poison into their lives and
what can they do about minimizing the poison that will happen?
While poison is a strong word for school, I don't think there's a
child who has been to school without at least some damage. Having to
go to school, buying into the concept that what is presented there is
more important than the way you'd prefer to spend your time, that
mommy has more important things to do each day than spend time with
you which is why the child needs sent off.
That last sounds *really* harsh, but no matter how much a parent
wants the child to believe the child's needs are important, when
we're putting the child's needs behind something else (work,
shopping, cooking) our actions are saying the total opposite. So the
child can't help but internalize the message that they aren't as
important as work.
Are there ways to minimize the effects of school? I think my
daughter's friends parents have done a great job of staying connected
with their schooled daughter and encouraging her interests. (The mom
would have been a great unschooler.) They spend a lot of hours doing
things together as a family, supporting her. But I *still* see the
damage school has done to her. She thinks she's fat. She acts as if
her parents are jerks when she's around her friends. She stresses
over school work. School eats up huge hours of her day, not just in
the classroom but homework and for what? Kids either have to buy into
the idea that all that work is important or otherwise they're wasting
a huge chunk of their life. Some kids *don't* buy into it and see the
bogusness of school and they're miserable.
Being trapped in any situation is just not healthy for happiness. You
either have to buy the lie or be miserable with the truth.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am interested in your opinions and suggestions for what I can do nowIf you believed something was poisonous, would you help someone who
> with her as a pre-school child; and how to keep her interest in home
> based learning once she is also attending school (almost 3 years off).
asked how they could incorporate that poison into their lives and
what can they do about minimizing the poison that will happen?
While poison is a strong word for school, I don't think there's a
child who has been to school without at least some damage. Having to
go to school, buying into the concept that what is presented there is
more important than the way you'd prefer to spend your time, that
mommy has more important things to do each day than spend time with
you which is why the child needs sent off.
That last sounds *really* harsh, but no matter how much a parent
wants the child to believe the child's needs are important, when
we're putting the child's needs behind something else (work,
shopping, cooking) our actions are saying the total opposite. So the
child can't help but internalize the message that they aren't as
important as work.
Are there ways to minimize the effects of school? I think my
daughter's friends parents have done a great job of staying connected
with their schooled daughter and encouraging her interests. (The mom
would have been a great unschooler.) They spend a lot of hours doing
things together as a family, supporting her. But I *still* see the
damage school has done to her. She thinks she's fat. She acts as if
her parents are jerks when she's around her friends. She stresses
over school work. School eats up huge hours of her day, not just in
the classroom but homework and for what? Kids either have to buy into
the idea that all that work is important or otherwise they're wasting
a huge chunk of their life. Some kids *don't* buy into it and see the
bogusness of school and they're miserable.
Being trapped in any situation is just not healthy for happiness. You
either have to buy the lie or be miserable with the truth.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> I am interested in your opinions and suggestions for what I can
do now
Joyce said some very important things.
As to "combining the best of both" you can't have any unschooling if
your child is in school.
You CAN have an interesting life, now and then and when your children
are grown and gone, if you keep yourself interested and curious and
joyful. If you banish cynicism and resentments and live with
acceptance and happiness that will help in any case.
"Also attending school" takes you outside of the realm of
unschooling, though, and we can only really help if you want to
unschool.
Here's something that might be of some help at some point, but let it
live in the shadow of what Joyce wrote.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do now
> with her as a pre-school child; and how to keep her interest in homeoff).-=-
> based learning once she is also attending school (almost 3 years
Joyce said some very important things.
As to "combining the best of both" you can't have any unschooling if
your child is in school.
You CAN have an interesting life, now and then and when your children
are grown and gone, if you keep yourself interested and curious and
joyful. If you banish cynicism and resentments and live with
acceptance and happiness that will help in any case.
"Also attending school" takes you outside of the realm of
unschooling, though, and we can only really help if you want to
unschool.
Here's something that might be of some help at some point, but let it
live in the shadow of what Joyce wrote.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel
I would like to thank Sandra for the helpful comment / resources.
I think for me it will be important to hold myself back from pushing
her to succeed in school. I see that it can become extremely
unhelpful. It is also far to common for parents to DO the homework, so
that the kids get better marks.
Personally, I found "spoon fed", teacher based learning an easier
option than the experience led "Continuing Professional Development"
which I am expected to document throughout my career as a pharmacist.
I have made the choice to return to work now, as my professional
qualification requires me to keep up to date.
I am very satisfied with the childcare arrangements I have presently;
however proper school does appear to be when you lose control of how a
child speaks and thinks - in many cases.
I also realise that I have taken the topic outside the scope of this
group since I
am not committed to unschooling. I will wait a week or so to receive
directly relevant replies and then I think I will unsubscribe myself,
a little wiser.
Thanks for bearing with me.
Rachel
I think for me it will be important to hold myself back from pushing
her to succeed in school. I see that it can become extremely
unhelpful. It is also far to common for parents to DO the homework, so
that the kids get better marks.
Personally, I found "spoon fed", teacher based learning an easier
option than the experience led "Continuing Professional Development"
which I am expected to document throughout my career as a pharmacist.
I have made the choice to return to work now, as my professional
qualification requires me to keep up to date.
I am very satisfied with the childcare arrangements I have presently;
however proper school does appear to be when you lose control of how a
child speaks and thinks - in many cases.
I also realise that I have taken the topic outside the scope of this
group since I
am not committed to unschooling. I will wait a week or so to receive
directly relevant replies and then I think I will unsubscribe myself,
a little wiser.
Thanks for bearing with me.
Rachel
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Here's something that might be of some help at some point, but let it
> live in the shadow of what Joyce wrote.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
Alfie Kohn wrote an article for Ed-Week that addresses this idea. From the
article:
"Like other people, educators often hold theories about how the world works,
or how one ought to act, that are never named, never checked for accuracy,
never even consciously recognized. One of the most popular of these theories is a
very appealing blend of pragmatism and relativism that might be called "the
more, the merrier." People subscribing to this view tend to dismiss arguments
that a given educational practice is bad news and ought to be replaced by
another. "Why not do both?" they ask. "No reason to throw anything out of your
toolbox. Use everything that works."
But what if something that works to accomplish one goal ends up impeding
another? And what if two very different strategies are inversely related, such
that they work at cross purposes? As it happens, converging evidence from
different educational arenas tends to support exactly these concerns. Particularly
when practices that might be called, for lack of better labels, progressive and
traditional are used at the same time, the latter often has the effect of
undermining the former."
Full article is at http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
Deborah in IL
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
article:
"Like other people, educators often hold theories about how the world works,
or how one ought to act, that are never named, never checked for accuracy,
never even consciously recognized. One of the most popular of these theories is a
very appealing blend of pragmatism and relativism that might be called "the
more, the merrier." People subscribing to this view tend to dismiss arguments
that a given educational practice is bad news and ought to be replaced by
another. "Why not do both?" they ask. "No reason to throw anything out of your
toolbox. Use everything that works."
But what if something that works to accomplish one goal ends up impeding
another? And what if two very different strategies are inversely related, such
that they work at cross purposes? As it happens, converging evidence from
different educational arenas tends to support exactly these concerns. Particularly
when practices that might be called, for lack of better labels, progressive and
traditional are used at the same time, the latter often has the effect of
undermining the former."
Full article is at http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
Deborah in IL
**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sunday Cote
> -=-> I am interested in your opinions and suggestions for what I canI love what Joyce shared so beautifully and I agree completely. One
> do now
>> with her as a pre-school child; and how to keep her interest in home
>> based learning once she is also attending school (almost 3 years
> off).-=-
>
book that could be useful for a family who is trying to combine
unschooling principles with school (for whatever reasons) is Guerrilla
Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or Without
School by Grace Llewellyn and Amy Silver. Of course, if you read
Grace's other books, "Teenage Liberation Handbook" and "Real Lives"
you might be more inspired to do anything it takes to keep your kids
out of school! <g> Even though my children were very young when I
read Teenage Liberation Handbook, it was so inspiring and gave me a
new vision of life with my children and how it can unfold quite
differently than the commonly held myths of the "teenage years."
Happy reading,
Sunday
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<<< however proper school does appear to be when you lose control of how
a
Having control over how our children speak or think, especially think, is
probably not an great Unschooling goal. Expanding their options, offering
them more than the narrow interpretation of "right thinking" that school
culture might give, helping them explore how many people speak and think -
that seems more in line with Unschooling.
I think I know what Rachel means - that school and the people there can
become the biggest influence and source of information.
However I certainly don't see myself as able to control always unschooled
Jayn's (at 8 at least) speech or thoughts at all, even while I occasionally
coach her to speak in more pleasant ways or suggest she forgo some verbal
expressions in some situations.
But control her thinking? Limit her thinking to mirror mine? Impossible -
and not an impossible dream either - more like a nightmare. I don't want to
control her thinking. I don't think I ever had that control.
As an aside trying to control her behavior is never a happy moment either.
We'll be here if you change your mind, Rachel. So will Sandra's pages,
Joyce's pages, numerous books and blogs. I recommend www.naturalchild.org
since your child is still young.
Robyn L. Coburn
a
> child speaks and thinks - in many cases. >>>>>Pulling an idea out of this post for general notice:
Having control over how our children speak or think, especially think, is
probably not an great Unschooling goal. Expanding their options, offering
them more than the narrow interpretation of "right thinking" that school
culture might give, helping them explore how many people speak and think -
that seems more in line with Unschooling.
I think I know what Rachel means - that school and the people there can
become the biggest influence and source of information.
However I certainly don't see myself as able to control always unschooled
Jayn's (at 8 at least) speech or thoughts at all, even while I occasionally
coach her to speak in more pleasant ways or suggest she forgo some verbal
expressions in some situations.
But control her thinking? Limit her thinking to mirror mine? Impossible -
and not an impossible dream either - more like a nightmare. I don't want to
control her thinking. I don't think I ever had that control.
As an aside trying to control her behavior is never a happy moment either.
We'll be here if you change your mind, Rachel. So will Sandra's pages,
Joyce's pages, numerous books and blogs. I recommend www.naturalchild.org
since your child is still young.
Robyn L. Coburn
Cameron Parham
I would very much encourage reading the first chapter of the book mentioned below, Teenage Liberation Handbook. This will explain my concern whether what you hope for is possible (and I am generally a very optimistic person). I can't comment on Australian schools, but you perhaps should read John Taylor Gatto's book about the REAL (historically documented) purpose of modern American schools. I have to wonder if Australian schools would be that different inpurpose but I can't actually say. Since you have asked such an excellent question I hope you'll fnd the answers you seek. Cameron Parham...from Montana, USA
----- Original Message ----
From: Sunday Cote <sundaycote@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:19:40 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Combining the best of both? Can it be done?
book that could be useful for a family who is trying to combine
unschooling principles with school (for whatever reasons) is Guerrilla
Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or Without
School by Grace Llewellyn and Amy Silver. Of course, if you read
Grace's other books, "Teenage Liberation Handbook" and "Real Lives"
you might be more inspired to do anything it takes to keep your kids
out of school! <g> Even though my children were very young when I
read Teenage Liberation Handbook, it was so inspiring and gave me a
new vision of life with my children and how it can unfold quite
differently than the commonly held myths of the "teenage years."
Happy reading,
Sunday
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Sunday Cote <sundaycote@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:19:40 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Combining the best of both? Can it be done?
> -=-> I am interested in your opinions and suggestions for what I canI love what Joyce shared so beautifully and I agree completely. One
> do now
>> with her as a pre-school child; and how to keep her interest in home
>> based learning once she is also attending school (almost 3 years
> off).-=-
>
book that could be useful for a family who is trying to combine
unschooling principles with school (for whatever reasons) is Guerrilla
Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or Without
School by Grace Llewellyn and Amy Silver. Of course, if you read
Grace's other books, "Teenage Liberation Handbook" and "Real Lives"
you might be more inspired to do anything it takes to keep your kids
out of school! <g> Even though my children were very young when I
read Teenage Liberation Handbook, it was so inspiring and gave me a
new vision of life with my children and how it can unfold quite
differently than the commonly held myths of the "teenage years."
Happy reading,
Sunday
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rachel
OK - the subject has changed slightly I suppose. It has become almost
"why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we are
having a meaningful discussion.
I believe that adult (degree level) education, in Britain, is now
turning increasingly in the direction of what they call, "problem
based learning." It seems to me that it would be easier for a person
used to the unschooling methods, than for me, with my extremely
curriculum based education.
I was pushed to work at school and I don't know what I would have
acheived if left to my own devices. I can understand the argument that
it is because of my schooling that I fear missing opportunities and
don't always trust myself to find the "right" answer. The fact remains
that I want Naomi to be employable; and would prefer her to have an
income well above the minimum wage level. I don't have confidence that
I could enable her to get the required professional qualifications
with no school involvement.
The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and can't
therefore take on this responsibility full time. (Thank you for all
remaining polite. I know to some of you I must appear selfish.)
I wondered how many of you had been unschooled yourselves? I read a
comment about how the daughter of one member felt cheated and planned
to send her child to preschool etc.
It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
backgrounds: e.g. I was given the education my parents felt they had
been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was 14.
He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
it the hard way.
"why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we are
having a meaningful discussion.
I believe that adult (degree level) education, in Britain, is now
turning increasingly in the direction of what they call, "problem
based learning." It seems to me that it would be easier for a person
used to the unschooling methods, than for me, with my extremely
curriculum based education.
I was pushed to work at school and I don't know what I would have
acheived if left to my own devices. I can understand the argument that
it is because of my schooling that I fear missing opportunities and
don't always trust myself to find the "right" answer. The fact remains
that I want Naomi to be employable; and would prefer her to have an
income well above the minimum wage level. I don't have confidence that
I could enable her to get the required professional qualifications
with no school involvement.
The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and can't
therefore take on this responsibility full time. (Thank you for all
remaining polite. I know to some of you I must appear selfish.)
I wondered how many of you had been unschooled yourselves? I read a
comment about how the daughter of one member felt cheated and planned
to send her child to preschool etc.
It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
backgrounds: e.g. I was given the education my parents felt they had
been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was 14.
He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
it the hard way.
Sandra Dodd
-=-OK - the subject has changed slightly I suppose. It has become almost
"why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we are
having a meaningful discussion.-=-
The subject always changes here because it's more a think tank than
a help desk, and very often the question the mom asks isn't the
question she needs to be asking.
On the other hand, the subject never changes here, because it's
always unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we are
having a meaningful discussion.-=-
The subject always changes here because it's more a think tank than
a help desk, and very often the question the mom asks isn't the
question she needs to be asking.
On the other hand, the subject never changes here, because it's
always unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was pushed to work at school and I don't know what I would have
acheived if left to my own devices-=-
Of course you don't. How could you? None of us can. Have you
considered how your life might have been different if none of the
experiences and memories and shaming voices and bullying and school
"failures" (no matter how small--paper turned in late, careless error
in calculation) weren't with you?
-=The fact remains that I want Naomi to be employable; and would
prefer her to have an income well above the minimum wage level.-=-
It seems you're suggesting (and I said "seems" to be polite) that
you're addressing a list of a thousand people who don't care whether
their children are every employable and are aiming to doom them to
minimum wage.
Think of all the people around you who went to school. Are any of
them working for minimum wage? Do you think all the miminum wage
people were homeschooled?
-=-The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and
can't therefore take on this responsibility full time.-=-
Interesting time and place to use the word "academic."
Are decisions about our children and our parenting "academic"? Did
college tell you how to be a parent?
-=-It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
backgrounds:...-=-
"It occurred" suggests you haven't been living with that constant
awareness for your entire life. The might be part of why you're
having a hard time thinking clearly about your daughter's life. She
has already been influenced by her own background. Not "very much,"
but ENTIRELY. She will be influenced by what happens to her while
you're reading this, and after you stand up from the computer. There
are no do-overs with raising a child. That child grows up and is
influenced all the way through.
-=-I was given the education my parents felt they had
been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was 14.
He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
it the hard way.-=-
So your parents lived vicariously through you, to some extent maybe?
That can't help but happen to some extent, but it's good to know when
it's happening and feel ourselves being aware of when we're accepting
our children's growth and when we're trying to build new-improved
Mini-Me's.
You've been given good suggestions about enriching your daughter's
life while she's in school, and that's the best you can get from this
list. If you don't want to think about why you're making the choices
you're making, run away! This list WILL make you think, and you can
only escape by escaping.
Once I was asked (with hostility) "Are you willing to risk your
child's future on your 'theories'?"
I said "Yes, aren't you?"
If your theory is that school equals much money and therefor
happiness, you're going to take that risk, that school won't hurt a
bit and will guarantee "success."
Someone said once, when I was talking about the purpose of groups
such as these, "You can't make me think."
I'm sure she's been thinking of that ever since. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
acheived if left to my own devices-=-
Of course you don't. How could you? None of us can. Have you
considered how your life might have been different if none of the
experiences and memories and shaming voices and bullying and school
"failures" (no matter how small--paper turned in late, careless error
in calculation) weren't with you?
-=The fact remains that I want Naomi to be employable; and would
prefer her to have an income well above the minimum wage level.-=-
It seems you're suggesting (and I said "seems" to be polite) that
you're addressing a list of a thousand people who don't care whether
their children are every employable and are aiming to doom them to
minimum wage.
Think of all the people around you who went to school. Are any of
them working for minimum wage? Do you think all the miminum wage
people were homeschooled?
-=-The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and
can't therefore take on this responsibility full time.-=-
Interesting time and place to use the word "academic."
Are decisions about our children and our parenting "academic"? Did
college tell you how to be a parent?
-=-It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
backgrounds:...-=-
"It occurred" suggests you haven't been living with that constant
awareness for your entire life. The might be part of why you're
having a hard time thinking clearly about your daughter's life. She
has already been influenced by her own background. Not "very much,"
but ENTIRELY. She will be influenced by what happens to her while
you're reading this, and after you stand up from the computer. There
are no do-overs with raising a child. That child grows up and is
influenced all the way through.
-=-I was given the education my parents felt they had
been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was 14.
He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
it the hard way.-=-
So your parents lived vicariously through you, to some extent maybe?
That can't help but happen to some extent, but it's good to know when
it's happening and feel ourselves being aware of when we're accepting
our children's growth and when we're trying to build new-improved
Mini-Me's.
You've been given good suggestions about enriching your daughter's
life while she's in school, and that's the best you can get from this
list. If you don't want to think about why you're making the choices
you're making, run away! This list WILL make you think, and you can
only escape by escaping.
Once I was asked (with hostility) "Are you willing to risk your
child's future on your 'theories'?"
I said "Yes, aren't you?"
If your theory is that school equals much money and therefor
happiness, you're going to take that risk, that school won't hurt a
bit and will guarantee "success."
Someone said once, when I was talking about the purpose of groups
such as these, "You can't make me think."
I'm sure she's been thinking of that ever since. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
juillet727
Hi there--
I want to encourage you to keep listening in to the conversations here
and other groups (maybe Unschooling Basics and Always Unschooled, for
example) and just keep listening. Since your daughter's so young, it's
a great time to learn about it. There are always interesting topics to
listen in on.
Also, I wouldn't say that unschooling is a way for anyone to "keep
their child interested in learning" though. Every single kid is
already interested in life and learning and all that. Unschooling
helps me to respect and love my child for who he is and not define his
experience to him (or to me). i.e. "this is learning and valuable, but
this over here--this is a waste of time" If I'm not assigning a value
or morality on some activity, he keeps moving forward in his own life
with me and his dad supporting him. It's an awesome life.
I work at a local grocery store and we have regular customers who come
in and I sort of get to know them in the many 2 minute conversations
we have during the week. This one guy comes in, he's bummed out one
day and I ask him about it. He says, "Oh, it's my niece. She's 22 and
just not interested in anything. Doesn't work, lays around the house
all day. Dropped out of school (college). Sheesh. I don't know what to
do for her." So I ask, "Well, what's she interested in?" And he says
cringing, "She wants to go to beauty school." And I look at him like,
"Duh! Help her do that, dude.", but I smile and say, "That's great!
She could go to cosmetology school! There's all sorts of things she
could do with that." He scoffs, "That's not a real job!"
*sigh* An example of what not to do, perhaps. Adults take that
attitude all the time with kids of all ages. That will destroy the
love of learning in anyone for sure.
~~Juillet
I want to encourage you to keep listening in to the conversations here
and other groups (maybe Unschooling Basics and Always Unschooled, for
example) and just keep listening. Since your daughter's so young, it's
a great time to learn about it. There are always interesting topics to
listen in on.
Also, I wouldn't say that unschooling is a way for anyone to "keep
their child interested in learning" though. Every single kid is
already interested in life and learning and all that. Unschooling
helps me to respect and love my child for who he is and not define his
experience to him (or to me). i.e. "this is learning and valuable, but
this over here--this is a waste of time" If I'm not assigning a value
or morality on some activity, he keeps moving forward in his own life
with me and his dad supporting him. It's an awesome life.
I work at a local grocery store and we have regular customers who come
in and I sort of get to know them in the many 2 minute conversations
we have during the week. This one guy comes in, he's bummed out one
day and I ask him about it. He says, "Oh, it's my niece. She's 22 and
just not interested in anything. Doesn't work, lays around the house
all day. Dropped out of school (college). Sheesh. I don't know what to
do for her." So I ask, "Well, what's she interested in?" And he says
cringing, "She wants to go to beauty school." And I look at him like,
"Duh! Help her do that, dude.", but I smile and say, "That's great!
She could go to cosmetology school! There's all sorts of things she
could do with that." He scoffs, "That's not a real job!"
*sigh* An example of what not to do, perhaps. Adults take that
attitude all the time with kids of all ages. That will destroy the
love of learning in anyone for sure.
~~Juillet
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
My husband works at the University of East Anglia where they use Problem Based Learning within the med-school (don't know about the other departments). PBL seems to be the new vogue teaching technique. Don't know if it works better, but it works much the same. He has to make sure that the students achieve the right points, it the right learning notes if you will. It is a curriculum, it is just under a different guise. Anyhow, I don't know if unschooling makes one more or less prepared for PBL or not. What unschooling does is help someone be better able to feel that learning happens whatever, and maybe, just maybe, formal education might be a good way to go to learn more about what you are interested in.
As a side note University education in the U.S. is nothing, really only a little bit, like University education in the UK. David says it is like some combined honours programs, but not really. As an American formally educated within the U.S. and only looking over the shoulder of my husband as he works within the U.K. higher education system, I prefer the U.S. system by a long way.
There will always be missed opportunities. We left Albuquerque for the UK just before the newest unschooling group there really got going. If we'd stayed, man, well, we didn't... Just because you missed an opportunity doesn't mean that you aren't going to have other opportunities come along, or that you aren't going to be capable of making new opportunities for yourself. I think that is where unschooling really shines, it lets an individual, a child, know themselves better than they would know themselves if they were told what to do and when to do it and how to think. I think that if you know yourself and your abilities and ways to negotiate through your limititations, you will make enough opportunities for yourself that the missed ones won't effect you so much.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: rachel <rachel.prosser@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January, 2008 11:27:28 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Combining the best of both? Can it be done?
OK - the subject has changed slightly I suppose. It has become almost
"why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we are
having a meaningful discussion.
I believe that adult (degree level) education, in Britain, is now
turning increasingly in the direction of what they call, "problem
based learning." It seems to me that it would be easier for a person
used to the unschooling methods, than for me, with my extremely
curriculum based education.
I was pushed to work at school and I don't know what I would have
acheived if left to my own devices. I can understand the argument that
it is because of my schooling that I fear missing opportunities and
don't always trust myself to find the "right" answer. The fact remains
that I want Naomi to be employable; and would prefer her to have an
income well above the minimum wage level. I don't have confidence that
I could enable her to get the required professional qualifications
with no school involvement.
The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and can't
therefore take on this responsibility full time. (Thank you for all
remaining polite. I know to some of you I must appear selfish.)
I wondered how many of you had been unschooled yourselves? I read a
comment about how the daughter of one member felt cheated and planned
to send her child to preschool etc.
It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
backgrounds: e.g. I was given the education my parents felt they had
been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was 14.
He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
it the hard way.
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As a side note University education in the U.S. is nothing, really only a little bit, like University education in the UK. David says it is like some combined honours programs, but not really. As an American formally educated within the U.S. and only looking over the shoulder of my husband as he works within the U.K. higher education system, I prefer the U.S. system by a long way.
There will always be missed opportunities. We left Albuquerque for the UK just before the newest unschooling group there really got going. If we'd stayed, man, well, we didn't... Just because you missed an opportunity doesn't mean that you aren't going to have other opportunities come along, or that you aren't going to be capable of making new opportunities for yourself. I think that is where unschooling really shines, it lets an individual, a child, know themselves better than they would know themselves if they were told what to do and when to do it and how to think. I think that if you know yourself and your abilities and ways to negotiate through your limititations, you will make enough opportunities for yourself that the missed ones won't effect you so much.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: rachel <rachel.prosser@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January, 2008 11:27:28 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Combining the best of both? Can it be done?
OK - the subject has changed slightly I suppose. It has become almost
"why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we are
having a meaningful discussion.
I believe that adult (degree level) education, in Britain, is now
turning increasingly in the direction of what they call, "problem
based learning." It seems to me that it would be easier for a person
used to the unschooling methods, than for me, with my extremely
curriculum based education.
I was pushed to work at school and I don't know what I would have
acheived if left to my own devices. I can understand the argument that
it is because of my schooling that I fear missing opportunities and
don't always trust myself to find the "right" answer. The fact remains
that I want Naomi to be employable; and would prefer her to have an
income well above the minimum wage level. I don't have confidence that
I could enable her to get the required professional qualifications
with no school involvement.
The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and can't
therefore take on this responsibility full time. (Thank you for all
remaining polite. I know to some of you I must appear selfish.)
I wondered how many of you had been unschooled yourselves? I read a
comment about how the daughter of one member felt cheated and planned
to send her child to preschool etc.
It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
backgrounds: e.g. I was given the education my parents felt they had
been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was 14.
He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
it the hard way.
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I smile and say, "That's great!
She could go to cosmetology school! There's all sorts of things she
could do with that." He scoffs, "That's not a real job!" -=-
EEEEK!!! Poor guy. He should've thought a half a second before he
took his finger off that chess move.
He was talking to someone working at a grocery store who was being
nice enough to serve as a counsellor and life coach FOR FREE <bwg>...
I have a friend who studied cosmetology and did finger nails in a
salon for years.
Now she has a master's degree in early education and does screening
of kids to match them with special ed teachers or some such.
Buddhism has the concept of "right livelihood," and when a woman
wants her nails done, that might be a more moral and useful job than
persuading parents their kids aren't okay, when they're only three or
four.
Maybe the niece who wants to be a cosmetologist will be a great
counsellor and life coach while she does perms. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She could go to cosmetology school! There's all sorts of things she
could do with that." He scoffs, "That's not a real job!" -=-
EEEEK!!! Poor guy. He should've thought a half a second before he
took his finger off that chess move.
He was talking to someone working at a grocery store who was being
nice enough to serve as a counsellor and life coach FOR FREE <bwg>...
I have a friend who studied cosmetology and did finger nails in a
salon for years.
Now she has a master's degree in early education and does screening
of kids to match them with special ed teachers or some such.
Buddhism has the concept of "right livelihood," and when a woman
wants her nails done, that might be a more moral and useful job than
persuading parents their kids aren't okay, when they're only three or
four.
Maybe the niece who wants to be a cosmetologist will be a great
counsellor and life coach while she does perms. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>I smile and say, "That's great!My oldest son's about to turn 19 and he wants to go to bartending school.
>>She could go to cosmetology school! There's all sorts of things she
>>could do with that." He scoffs, "That's not a real job!"<<
The legal age to serve alcohol here in Arizona is 19. He doesn't drink
himself per se, occasionally has a glass of wine, but is really interested
in mixing...used to be mixing ingredients, then chemical-type things, now
drinks. At Goodwill and used book stores he has accumulated books on mixing
drinks for the last few months. He's meeting with the school owner this
week. I think there may be some overlap with life-coaching here as well ;o)
How could anyone know what is a good job or not a good job for another
person? My high executive brother-in-law has been very happily working as a
handy man in an elderly community for the last two years...best job he's
ever used his master's degree for he says.
Jacki
diana jenner
Buddhism has the concept of "right livelihood," and when a woman
God's ultimate plan for you. If it's surfing porn on the web, you better do
it so you'll get to heaven :D It's not on their myspace page, but other fun
stuff is :) myspace.com/wumpus
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> wants her nails done, that might be a more moral and useful job thanSuperCoolBoyfriend's band had a great song called "Porn on the Web" about
> persuading parents their kids aren't okay, when they're only three or
> four.
>
>
>
>
>
God's ultimate plan for you. If it's surfing porn on the web, you better do
it so you'll get to heaven :D It's not on their myspace page, but other fun
stuff is :) myspace.com/wumpus
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Classic.
What do schools have but theories? Not only that but theories that
change according to which 'expert' is flavour of the month.
Bob
>ROFL
>
> Once I was asked (with hostility) "Are you willing to risk your
> child's future on your 'theories'?"
>
> I said "Yes, aren't you?"
>
>
Classic.
What do schools have but theories? Not only that but theories that
change according to which 'expert' is flavour of the month.
Bob
emmy
What do schools have but theories? Not only that but theories that
change according to which 'expert' is flavour of the month.
Bob
my son and i were just discussing this last night about science. some things alone are based on scientists theories....until the latest and greatest comes along.
emmy
www.foundthings.etsy.com
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
change according to which 'expert' is flavour of the month.
Bob
my son and i were just discussing this last night about science. some things alone are based on scientists theories....until the latest and greatest comes along.
emmy
www.foundthings.etsy.com
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
Hi, Rachel
I have a 22 year old daughter who was conventionally schooled
(including three years at a private all-girls school in London), who
graduated from high school here in Australia in the top 1% of
students in her state and who is currently prepping for the final
exams next month of both the Law degree and the degree in Forensic
Science that she's been studying concurrently. She already has a BA
that she completed two years ago. Since August, she's been in
training as a Scene of Crime Officer, a career job with a starting
salary that's almost twice the national average income.
I also have a 12 year old son who went to school for two years, hated
it and asked to be taken out. He has now been out of school for more
than five years and in all his time at home with me has mostly
played videogames, watched TV and surfed the internet. We have
conversations every day about a wide range of 'real world' subjects.
What I hear from my son the most is "I know that already". And he
does know it. Without being taught.
If it's up to me, my son will never see the inside of a school
classroom again.
Two reasons.
With the advent of the internet and the Digital Revolution generally,
institutional classroom based education is being rapidly superseded
by more efficient methods of education that are readily available to
anybody and everybody who wants to take advantage of them. Including
children. In this day and age, and especially since 2005 when the
internet blossomed into full on multi-media, if you're connected to
Google and you can't educate yourself, you'd have to want to not be
educated. Schools generally, in the face of this reality, are
becoming less and less about education and more and more about
covering their asses by continually lowering standards in order to
keep their 'academic numbers' looking good and about keeping teachers
in jobs. I feel sorry for the poor sods - i.e. the students who
attend these glorified child minding centres - who are expected to
carry the can. I was reading an article about the supposed 'school of
the future' the other day and there was a picture of children seated
at rows of desks each with an open laptop in front of them. Who are
these people kidding? Not me. When I went to school in the 1950s,
there was no doubt that it was most parents' best option if they
wanted their children to get a 'good education' and if there was crap
that went with that, and there was, you were expected to accommodate
it as best you could - and that was in the days when most children
had at least one parent at home all day, but how many of them would
be willing to attempt something virtually everybody knew a school
teacher could do better? Now those days are gone and they're not
coming back. And outdated and no longer useful beliefs are going with
them. By the time my son has a child of 'school age' (if he does),
the idea of sending him or her to an institution to sit in a
classroom and be taught by somebody with no more capability than he
has (and if many schools' resistence to digital tachnology is
anything to go by, far less capability) will be like, "What are you?
Amish or something?"
Second reason. The view from where I'm standing tells me there's big
money to be made in online education. "Webucation" as management guru
Peter Drucker calls it. The real education revolution is going on
behind the backs of the 'keepers of the school system' as more and
more companies come into the distance and online learning market.
And, since many of these companies are already experienced providers
of educational resources and services to *adults*, they know that
educational efficiency is the name of the game. No fluff and filler
like morning assembly, no waiting for slowcoaches to catch up, no
strangers deciding what you should or shouldn't be interested in, no
obtaining knowledge in little bits at somebody else's whim, no
putting your hand up to get permission to go to the toilet instead of
just going when you need to, no eating by the clock instead of when
you're hungry, all those incidental things you get in a school
classroom that intelligent adults would feel insulted by but which
most teachers think is okay to impose on children. Now you can just
Get Educated without all the crap. And it costs less too. My wife and
I have saved a small fortune since our son's been at home and we
don't have to pay school fees and for uniforms and supplies. The
school my son went to was always after money for something or other,
much of it irrelevant to a 'good education'. As private enterprise
takes over online education and more and more bricks and mortar
educational institutions put more and more of their opportunities
online, as they're starting to do, it's only a matter of time before
obtaining academic qualifications will be something anybody who wants
to have them can do from more or less the comfort of their own home.
My wife completed her MBA in 1996 through the Open University while
maintaining a full-time career job. Imagine how much easier getting a
university degree will be for unschoolers who want to do that when
they have all day free to study. Thanks to the Digital Revolution,
we've entered a Golden Age of self-education unprecedented in human
history. The 'keepers of the school system' are mostly in denial or
don't know how to change old habits, but I, for one, am very, very
pleased that my son has the opportunity to get an education in the
same way that any intelligent *adult* would get an education. On his
terms.
My thoughts at the moment.
Bob
--- In [email protected], "rachel" <rachel.prosser@...>
wrote:
I have a 22 year old daughter who was conventionally schooled
(including three years at a private all-girls school in London), who
graduated from high school here in Australia in the top 1% of
students in her state and who is currently prepping for the final
exams next month of both the Law degree and the degree in Forensic
Science that she's been studying concurrently. She already has a BA
that she completed two years ago. Since August, she's been in
training as a Scene of Crime Officer, a career job with a starting
salary that's almost twice the national average income.
I also have a 12 year old son who went to school for two years, hated
it and asked to be taken out. He has now been out of school for more
than five years and in all his time at home with me has mostly
played videogames, watched TV and surfed the internet. We have
conversations every day about a wide range of 'real world' subjects.
What I hear from my son the most is "I know that already". And he
does know it. Without being taught.
If it's up to me, my son will never see the inside of a school
classroom again.
Two reasons.
With the advent of the internet and the Digital Revolution generally,
institutional classroom based education is being rapidly superseded
by more efficient methods of education that are readily available to
anybody and everybody who wants to take advantage of them. Including
children. In this day and age, and especially since 2005 when the
internet blossomed into full on multi-media, if you're connected to
Google and you can't educate yourself, you'd have to want to not be
educated. Schools generally, in the face of this reality, are
becoming less and less about education and more and more about
covering their asses by continually lowering standards in order to
keep their 'academic numbers' looking good and about keeping teachers
in jobs. I feel sorry for the poor sods - i.e. the students who
attend these glorified child minding centres - who are expected to
carry the can. I was reading an article about the supposed 'school of
the future' the other day and there was a picture of children seated
at rows of desks each with an open laptop in front of them. Who are
these people kidding? Not me. When I went to school in the 1950s,
there was no doubt that it was most parents' best option if they
wanted their children to get a 'good education' and if there was crap
that went with that, and there was, you were expected to accommodate
it as best you could - and that was in the days when most children
had at least one parent at home all day, but how many of them would
be willing to attempt something virtually everybody knew a school
teacher could do better? Now those days are gone and they're not
coming back. And outdated and no longer useful beliefs are going with
them. By the time my son has a child of 'school age' (if he does),
the idea of sending him or her to an institution to sit in a
classroom and be taught by somebody with no more capability than he
has (and if many schools' resistence to digital tachnology is
anything to go by, far less capability) will be like, "What are you?
Amish or something?"
Second reason. The view from where I'm standing tells me there's big
money to be made in online education. "Webucation" as management guru
Peter Drucker calls it. The real education revolution is going on
behind the backs of the 'keepers of the school system' as more and
more companies come into the distance and online learning market.
And, since many of these companies are already experienced providers
of educational resources and services to *adults*, they know that
educational efficiency is the name of the game. No fluff and filler
like morning assembly, no waiting for slowcoaches to catch up, no
strangers deciding what you should or shouldn't be interested in, no
obtaining knowledge in little bits at somebody else's whim, no
putting your hand up to get permission to go to the toilet instead of
just going when you need to, no eating by the clock instead of when
you're hungry, all those incidental things you get in a school
classroom that intelligent adults would feel insulted by but which
most teachers think is okay to impose on children. Now you can just
Get Educated without all the crap. And it costs less too. My wife and
I have saved a small fortune since our son's been at home and we
don't have to pay school fees and for uniforms and supplies. The
school my son went to was always after money for something or other,
much of it irrelevant to a 'good education'. As private enterprise
takes over online education and more and more bricks and mortar
educational institutions put more and more of their opportunities
online, as they're starting to do, it's only a matter of time before
obtaining academic qualifications will be something anybody who wants
to have them can do from more or less the comfort of their own home.
My wife completed her MBA in 1996 through the Open University while
maintaining a full-time career job. Imagine how much easier getting a
university degree will be for unschoolers who want to do that when
they have all day free to study. Thanks to the Digital Revolution,
we've entered a Golden Age of self-education unprecedented in human
history. The 'keepers of the school system' are mostly in denial or
don't know how to change old habits, but I, for one, am very, very
pleased that my son has the opportunity to get an education in the
same way that any intelligent *adult* would get an education. On his
terms.
My thoughts at the moment.
Bob
--- In [email protected], "rachel" <rachel.prosser@...>
wrote:
>almost
> OK - the subject has changed slightly I suppose. It has become
> "why I will send my child to school." Bear with me as I think we arethat
> having a meaningful discussion.
>
> I believe that adult (degree level) education, in Britain, is now
> turning increasingly in the direction of what they call, "problem
> based learning." It seems to me that it would be easier for a person
> used to the unschooling methods, than for me, with my extremely
> curriculum based education.
> I was pushed to work at school and I don't know what I would have
> acheived if left to my own devices. I can understand the argument
> it is because of my schooling that I fear missing opportunities andremains
> don't always trust myself to find the "right" answer. The fact
> that I want Naomi to be employable; and would prefer her to have anthat
> income well above the minimum wage level. I don't have confidence
> I could enable her to get the required professional qualificationscan't
> with no school involvement.
> The point is academic really as I intend to continue working and
> therefore take on this responsibility full time. (Thank you for allplanned
> remaining polite. I know to some of you I must appear selfish.)
> I wondered how many of you had been unschooled yourselves? I read a
> comment about how the daughter of one member felt cheated and
> to send her child to preschool etc.14.
> It occurred to me that we are all influenced very much by our own
> backgrounds: e.g. I was given the education my parents felt they had
> been denied. My dad was born in 1921 so the school leaving age was
> He succeeded in earning a degree later in life but felt he had to do
> it the hard way.
>
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
She went to school because she wanted to go. She started with a whole
bunch of children who'd known each other since babyhood. It was a Big
Shared Adventure. My daughter was at the top of the class from the
beginning and throughout 12 years of schooling and there's no doubt
she enjoyed the rewards that went with that. If ever she'd asked to
be taken out of school, I'm sure my wife and I would have taken the
request seriously, but she never did. She liked school. I believe the
stability and support she had in her home life gave her the
confidence to accommodate the less than satisfactory aspects that
came along with the positive things that were important to her. Out
of school, my daughter did whatever she liked, the same as she had
done before she started school and the same as her brother does all
the time now. She was never asked to do her homework. Not once. She
did it anyway. I'd never seen that before. Every other child I'd ever
known, myself included, had to be cajoled into doing homework. Every
now and then, my daughter would decide she didn't want to go to
school that day and my wife and I would say, "Sure, take the day
off." And the next day when I was writing the note for her teacher,
I'd say, "What do think, Bronwyn? Tummy upset? Sore throat?" and
she'd decide what I would write and we'd both have a chuckle over
that. I'd have much preferred to have been honest and written that my
daughter had been working very hard and decided to have an extra rest
day to keep her mind fresh, but schools do seem to prefer their silly
game. And, really, I quite enjoyed cheating at it. Much as my
daughter went to 'good schools' and I genuinely respected many of her
teachers, I was never one for leaving what I wanted for my daughter
at the school gate. :)
I was reading a few days ago about a workshop one of the
top 'parenting experts' here in Australia is promoting: it's for
teachers - How to deal with difficult parents. And I thought to
myself, "Yeah, I'd like to see you deal with ME, mate." LOL
Okay, I know, all nothing to do with unschooling. Just things reading
that article reminded me of. :)
Bob
>it
> >
> Here's something that might be of some help at some point, but let
> live in the shadow of what Joyce wrote.That's very interesting. My daughter's schooling was a bit like that.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
>
>
She went to school because she wanted to go. She started with a whole
bunch of children who'd known each other since babyhood. It was a Big
Shared Adventure. My daughter was at the top of the class from the
beginning and throughout 12 years of schooling and there's no doubt
she enjoyed the rewards that went with that. If ever she'd asked to
be taken out of school, I'm sure my wife and I would have taken the
request seriously, but she never did. She liked school. I believe the
stability and support she had in her home life gave her the
confidence to accommodate the less than satisfactory aspects that
came along with the positive things that were important to her. Out
of school, my daughter did whatever she liked, the same as she had
done before she started school and the same as her brother does all
the time now. She was never asked to do her homework. Not once. She
did it anyway. I'd never seen that before. Every other child I'd ever
known, myself included, had to be cajoled into doing homework. Every
now and then, my daughter would decide she didn't want to go to
school that day and my wife and I would say, "Sure, take the day
off." And the next day when I was writing the note for her teacher,
I'd say, "What do think, Bronwyn? Tummy upset? Sore throat?" and
she'd decide what I would write and we'd both have a chuckle over
that. I'd have much preferred to have been honest and written that my
daughter had been working very hard and decided to have an extra rest
day to keep her mind fresh, but schools do seem to prefer their silly
game. And, really, I quite enjoyed cheating at it. Much as my
daughter went to 'good schools' and I genuinely respected many of her
teachers, I was never one for leaving what I wanted for my daughter
at the school gate. :)
I was reading a few days ago about a workshop one of the
top 'parenting experts' here in Australia is promoting: it's for
teachers - How to deal with difficult parents. And I thought to
myself, "Yeah, I'd like to see you deal with ME, mate." LOL
Okay, I know, all nothing to do with unschooling. Just things reading
that article reminded me of. :)
Bob
Amy
--- In [email protected], "emmy" <foundthings@...> wrote:
and greatest comes along.
don't think I learned it there, but I always wrote it on my notebooks)
was "Scientific fact is no more than purified human opinion."
I googled it but couldn't find who to attribute it to, sorry about
that. That quote always helped me out when people would spew
their "facts."
~amy
> my son and i were just discussing this last night about science.some things alone are based on scientists theories....until the latest
and greatest comes along.
>One of the few quotes I bothered to memorize in high school (and I
> emmy
don't think I learned it there, but I always wrote it on my notebooks)
was "Scientific fact is no more than purified human opinion."
I googled it but couldn't find who to attribute it to, sorry about
that. That quote always helped me out when people would spew
their "facts."
~amy
Tanya Ziegler
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
know when it's happening and feel ourselves being aware of when we're
accepting our children's growth and when we're trying to build
new-improved Mini-Me's. >>
This gave me some food for thought and left me pondering for an entire
day - about parents wanting to live vicariously through our children
and wanting a life path we didn't have.
You might remember, we have an 18mo son (Talon) and unschoolig is new
to us. It's become my obsession, and my SO (Terry) has agreed to
follow my lead.
Sometimes when we are discussing Talon's learning, Terry will
passionately mention the things he thinks are important for Talon to
learn (history), be involved in (sports), and do for the sake of
education (go to college). These are all things important to Terry
himself. History and sports are his passions, and the college thing
is something he wishes he would have done right out of high school.
When Terry mentions these things, I will return comment something like
"if Talon wants to", and at least once I went into my own rant about
how terrible I think it is for parents to expect certain things and
shape their children's lives just so the parent can live vicariously
through them, and I pointed out that that's what Terry's ideas pointed
to.
I do actually feel this way, but the strong emotion I had attached to
that sentiment set off red flags for me. I have learned in recent
years through my pursuit of personal growth (which I now understand to
have just been deschooling myself) that the things we judge or
criticize harshly in other people are in fact really just reflections
of something unsettling within ourselves. (It's not the judgment or
criticism itself, but our strong attachment to that judgment.)
Knowing this, I then look at myself and ask "what am I doing?" It's
made me wonder if I'm doing no different than Terry, but with my
desires for Talon to be unschooled. I was the child fighting for
respect and independence for as far back as my memory will take me.
I'm the one who thinks how awesome it would have been to be unschooled
myself and parented respectfully, etc., etc. Am I not doing the same
thing and trying to live vicariously through our son also?
So that's what I was thinking about today - all day. I didn't have an
epiphany or come up with anything profound. But when I came back
tonight and re-read Sandra's comment that it's just good to be aware,
then maybe that's what's I needed to learn or hear for myself. I'm
sure this will become clearer as Talon gets older. He's already shown
signs of inheriting my independent streak, so perhaps he will have a
few things to show me about what that trait is really all about. <g>
Tanya
>> So your parents lived vicariously through you, to some extentmaybe? That can't help but happen to some extent, but it's good to
know when it's happening and feel ourselves being aware of when we're
accepting our children's growth and when we're trying to build
new-improved Mini-Me's. >>
This gave me some food for thought and left me pondering for an entire
day - about parents wanting to live vicariously through our children
and wanting a life path we didn't have.
You might remember, we have an 18mo son (Talon) and unschoolig is new
to us. It's become my obsession, and my SO (Terry) has agreed to
follow my lead.
Sometimes when we are discussing Talon's learning, Terry will
passionately mention the things he thinks are important for Talon to
learn (history), be involved in (sports), and do for the sake of
education (go to college). These are all things important to Terry
himself. History and sports are his passions, and the college thing
is something he wishes he would have done right out of high school.
When Terry mentions these things, I will return comment something like
"if Talon wants to", and at least once I went into my own rant about
how terrible I think it is for parents to expect certain things and
shape their children's lives just so the parent can live vicariously
through them, and I pointed out that that's what Terry's ideas pointed
to.
I do actually feel this way, but the strong emotion I had attached to
that sentiment set off red flags for me. I have learned in recent
years through my pursuit of personal growth (which I now understand to
have just been deschooling myself) that the things we judge or
criticize harshly in other people are in fact really just reflections
of something unsettling within ourselves. (It's not the judgment or
criticism itself, but our strong attachment to that judgment.)
Knowing this, I then look at myself and ask "what am I doing?" It's
made me wonder if I'm doing no different than Terry, but with my
desires for Talon to be unschooled. I was the child fighting for
respect and independence for as far back as my memory will take me.
I'm the one who thinks how awesome it would have been to be unschooled
myself and parented respectfully, etc., etc. Am I not doing the same
thing and trying to live vicariously through our son also?
So that's what I was thinking about today - all day. I didn't have an
epiphany or come up with anything profound. But when I came back
tonight and re-read Sandra's comment that it's just good to be aware,
then maybe that's what's I needed to learn or hear for myself. I'm
sure this will become clearer as Talon gets older. He's already shown
signs of inheriting my independent streak, so perhaps he will have a
few things to show me about what that trait is really all about. <g>
Tanya
Tanya Ziegler
"juillet727" <juillet727@...> wrote:
job!" *sigh* >>
When did this happen where society in general decided what was a real
job, a good living, the importance of a big career with a big fat
paycheck? Was it politically driven? Was it driven from the
depression era? I really don't know, I'm grabbing at straws.
This might go back to another of my posts about parents (in this case,
society or generations as a whole) wanting more for their children.
I'm not sure. But I do know that this is another one of those issues
that *irks* me because I wasted a lot of time in MY life following
these crazy rules and just as much time trying to undo the mess I got
myself into.
I got good grades in high school, went to college , and got myself a
respectable career with a decent paycheck - all for the approval of my
parents (and partly just to prove that I could) and because I was told
it was the key to *the good life*. I was on track to meet all my
goals, including being married by the time I was 25 - you know,
because that's what we were told to do back then - set career and life
goals for ourselves. I ended up depressed and having a mid-life
crisis at the ripe old age of 24. I'm 34 now and am just finally
starting to feel like a whole person again by reevaluating everything
in my life (deschooling, you could say), getting to know the REAL me
and what my interests and passions are, and making my own choices
accordingly.
Some people still think I'm crazy that I gave up a job as a health
care administrator to work at home as a medical transcriptionist for
production pay. I used to feel the need to justify myself and explain
to the hilt why I do what I do (that independence thing related to
working at home). But the more comfortable I get in my own skin, the
less I feel the need to justify myself.
That being said, I still find myself get worked up from time to time
when the whole issue comes up of what society in general believes is
the right way to live, work, and play. And so here I am again, I
guess back at the issue of wanting a better life for my son...
Tanya
>> "That's great! She could go to cosmetology school! There's allsorts of things she could do with that." He scoffs, "That's not a real
job!" *sigh* >>
When did this happen where society in general decided what was a real
job, a good living, the importance of a big career with a big fat
paycheck? Was it politically driven? Was it driven from the
depression era? I really don't know, I'm grabbing at straws.
This might go back to another of my posts about parents (in this case,
society or generations as a whole) wanting more for their children.
I'm not sure. But I do know that this is another one of those issues
that *irks* me because I wasted a lot of time in MY life following
these crazy rules and just as much time trying to undo the mess I got
myself into.
I got good grades in high school, went to college , and got myself a
respectable career with a decent paycheck - all for the approval of my
parents (and partly just to prove that I could) and because I was told
it was the key to *the good life*. I was on track to meet all my
goals, including being married by the time I was 25 - you know,
because that's what we were told to do back then - set career and life
goals for ourselves. I ended up depressed and having a mid-life
crisis at the ripe old age of 24. I'm 34 now and am just finally
starting to feel like a whole person again by reevaluating everything
in my life (deschooling, you could say), getting to know the REAL me
and what my interests and passions are, and making my own choices
accordingly.
Some people still think I'm crazy that I gave up a job as a health
care administrator to work at home as a medical transcriptionist for
production pay. I used to feel the need to justify myself and explain
to the hilt why I do what I do (that independence thing related to
working at home). But the more comfortable I get in my own skin, the
less I feel the need to justify myself.
That being said, I still find myself get worked up from time to time
when the whole issue comes up of what society in general believes is
the right way to live, work, and play. And so here I am again, I
guess back at the issue of wanting a better life for my son...
Tanya
Sandra Dodd
-=One of the few quotes I bothered to memorize in high school (and I
don't think I learned it there, but I always wrote it on my notebooks)
was "Scientific fact is no more than purified human opinion."
I googled it but couldn't find who to attribute it to, sorry about
that. That quote always helped me out when people would spew
their "facts."-=-
It made you feel better, but it's not a good way to look at fact and
opinion, I don't think.
In a wholly unrelated discussion yesterday someone I've known for 30
years (not always happily) wrote "That's your opinion," about
something that happened, I was there, and I could dig up letters to
prove it. I'm not going to.
She was miffed because something had happened years ago that she
hadn't known about (in the formation of an SCA kingdom, so fully
documentable stuff). Instead of writing about different people's
opinions, she could have written "It's your memory against mine" or
"It's your word against mine."
In any case, I was right and she was wrong. It's NOT a matter of
opinion.
On the other hand, it might have been too much information. Most
people like their history simple and clear and happy and sanitized.
Some scientific fact seems clearly to be purified human opinion. I
see it in education and childrearing and medicine and sociology.
Other things, though, surprise the heck out of people and they're
not happy to have discovered them. If fact goes against human
opinion, then what?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't think I learned it there, but I always wrote it on my notebooks)
was "Scientific fact is no more than purified human opinion."
I googled it but couldn't find who to attribute it to, sorry about
that. That quote always helped me out when people would spew
their "facts."-=-
It made you feel better, but it's not a good way to look at fact and
opinion, I don't think.
In a wholly unrelated discussion yesterday someone I've known for 30
years (not always happily) wrote "That's your opinion," about
something that happened, I was there, and I could dig up letters to
prove it. I'm not going to.
She was miffed because something had happened years ago that she
hadn't known about (in the formation of an SCA kingdom, so fully
documentable stuff). Instead of writing about different people's
opinions, she could have written "It's your memory against mine" or
"It's your word against mine."
In any case, I was right and she was wrong. It's NOT a matter of
opinion.
On the other hand, it might have been too much information. Most
people like their history simple and clear and happy and sanitized.
Some scientific fact seems clearly to be purified human opinion. I
see it in education and childrearing and medicine and sociology.
Other things, though, surprise the heck out of people and they're
not happy to have discovered them. If fact goes against human
opinion, then what?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Am I not doing the same
thing and trying to live vicariously through our son also? -=-
I think the first answer to most questions like that is "it depends."
If you manipulate the situation past the point that he has choices,
maybe yes.
If you keep the option open and appealing to him and he chooses it,
then no!
I enjoyed your thoughts about all that. Thanks for writing them out
so thoroughly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thing and trying to live vicariously through our son also? -=-
I think the first answer to most questions like that is "it depends."
If you manipulate the situation past the point that he has choices,
maybe yes.
If you keep the option open and appealing to him and he chooses it,
then no!
I enjoyed your thoughts about all that. Thanks for writing them out
so thoroughly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When did this happen where society in general decided what was a real
job, a good living, the importance of a big career with a big fat
paycheck? Was it politically driven? Was it driven from the
depression era? I really don't know, I'm grabbing at straws. -=-
Capitalism. It's the religion of America. Even churches say if you
serve God you'll be rewarded, and they sometimes mean with success.
I think school contributes too, with the competition for grades and
ranks. If a 98% is better than a 50% (An A to an F!) then $98,000
must be A-to-an-F to $50,000.
It's not enough that a house is warm and safe and doesn't leak. It
needs to be bigger than your relative's and friends'.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
job, a good living, the importance of a big career with a big fat
paycheck? Was it politically driven? Was it driven from the
depression era? I really don't know, I'm grabbing at straws. -=-
Capitalism. It's the religion of America. Even churches say if you
serve God you'll be rewarded, and they sometimes mean with success.
I think school contributes too, with the competition for grades and
ranks. If a 98% is better than a 50% (An A to an F!) then $98,000
must be A-to-an-F to $50,000.
It's not enough that a house is warm and safe and doesn't leak. It
needs to be bigger than your relative's and friends'.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Jan 25, 2008, at 1:00 AM, Tanya Ziegler wrote:
"Lies My Teacher Told Me," in which author James W. Loewen analyzed
the best-selling high school American history books, and
"The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith, a professor of
education who did not start out writing an unschooling book ;-)
Both men were speakers at the HomeSchool Association of California
annual conference (in different years). I had the opportunity to tell
Mr. Smith his book was always the first I recommended to new
homeschooling parents. It goes far in explaining why people don't
need school to truly learn, and why school teaching methods often
inhibit learning.
Nancy
> Sometimes when we are discussing Talon's learning, Terry willThere are two books you and Terry should read:
> passionately mention the things he thinks are important for Talon to
> learn (history), be involved in (sports), and do for the sake of
> education (go to college). These are all things important to Terry
> himself. History and sports are his passions, and the college thing
> is something he wishes he would have done right out of high school.
"Lies My Teacher Told Me," in which author James W. Loewen analyzed
the best-selling high school American history books, and
"The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith, a professor of
education who did not start out writing an unschooling book ;-)
Both men were speakers at the HomeSchool Association of California
annual conference (in different years). I had the opportunity to tell
Mr. Smith his book was always the first I recommended to new
homeschooling parents. It goes far in explaining why people don't
need school to truly learn, and why school teaching methods often
inhibit learning.
Nancy
Tanya Ziegler
>>Nancy Wooton wrote:Thanks, Nancy for these suggestions.
> There are two books you and Terry should read:
>
> "Lies My Teacher Told Me," in which author James W. Loewen analyzed
> the best-selling high school American history books, and
>
> "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith, a professor of
> education who did not start out writing an unschooling book ;-)
> >
Luckily, Terry isn't a textbook kind of person, but I've made note of
this book in case I need to offer it up. Terry is a wealth of
information all in himself, but like anyone who has a passion for
their subject he can go on and on (and on and on). I've learned more
history from him than all my 17 years of schooling and even find
myself interested most of the time (I used to loathe history). But
sometimes he's too much and even my eyes begin to glaze over.
I don't see the other book (Learning & Forgetting) at our local
library, so I've added it to my Amazon list (which seems to be getting
longer and longer by the day :-)
Thanks for the references.
Tanya