Tami

Hi all,

I'm not new to this group, but took a "year off" from it while our life was going thru some
changes.

I'm now a firm believer in finding and doing what's best for the individual, and what's good
for one child may not be good for another one. Yeah, it seems intuitive now, but this past
year was...one of the biggest challenges of my life trying to learn this. As a result of this
"new" understanding, my oldest son (6.5 yrs) now goes to a charter school and its working
out great for his specific needs.

I am still unschooling my younger son and I love it, but I'm struggling with some questions
regarding him. His older brother is an extrovert and extremely outgoing. Everybody is his
best friend, and now that he's in a school environment, he has a lot of friends. My other
son, however, is the exact opposite. He is very introverted, bashful, shy... He has no
friends.

I've tried joining local homeschool groups, doing library story time, etc., but he gets
overwhelmed in large groups and just sorta shuts down. He seems to do much better
one-on-one, so I've tried organizing play dates at our home or places around town with
just one other "friend", but he doesnt seem to want to have anything to do with that either.
He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at home), and seems envious
of his older brother and his friends.

On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me about his
"socialization". I have never been one to worry about "socialization", because I know for
most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to worry just a little about
my son.

I suppose if we didn't have the influence of his older brother, it wouldn't even occur to me
to worry about him. But when I watch him watch his brother and friends so longingly, it
makes my heart ache. Both my husband and I were also extremely shy growing up, and it
just hurts to see him going thru similar things. But, of course, we were forced to go to
school, which made it worse in so many ways, but eventually we both did find a friend or
two that way...

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not sure what I'm looking for...

Thanks,
Tami

Karen Sirotkin

Hi Tami,



I have quite a bit of experience with this! Of my 4 sons, 2 are extroverts,
1 is an introvert (Jury is still out on the 2 year old!). I am an
introvert, my parents are both introverts! My husband, on the other hand, is
an extrovert! Now, here is the interesting thing: introverts and extroverts
are personality types, and both are equally okay!! In a nutshell, an
extrovert is someone who gains energy from being around a lot of people; an
introvert is someone who gains energy from being by his/herself or with very
few people (one or two). For example, if my family goes to a social
gathering my husband and two of my sons are completely charged by the
experience! My other son and me, on the other hand, need some serious "down
time". It is exhausting for me!!



Being an introvert is not the same as being shy. Both my husband and I were
shy as children. For me, it wasn't an issue. I preferred to be alone, or
with just one other person (a friend or playmate, or child of one of my
mother's friends). For my husband, this was a big issue. He wanted to be
around others and have lots of friends, but didn't know how to make friends
and had some fear in that space.



I would say that if your son doesn't seem bothered by the lack of
friendships, or if he seems to be content by himself, then it really isn't a
problem. You do say that he seems lonely. Is he really lonely? Or is that
more of something that you (or your family) fears because of our societies
belief that all kids should have a bunch of other kids around them in order
to be "normal"?



If your son is happier one on one, and is an introvert-honor that about him.
Growing up, my mom was always pushing me to "make friends" with this bunch
of kids or that bunch of kids. I really hated that! In fact I ended up
thinking there was something wrong with me. I was always envious of my
extroverted friends and thought I was supposed to be more like them. It
wasn't until my 30s (and a conversation with a great life coach!) that I
learned that being an introvert wasn't a bad thing-it was who I was!



I hope this is helpful!



Karen

_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tami
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 6:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Very shy 5 yr old



Hi all,

I'm not new to this group, but took a "year off" from it while our life was
going thru some
changes.

I'm now a firm believer in finding and doing what's best for the individual,
and what's good
for one child may not be good for another one. Yeah, it seems intuitive now,
but this past
year was...one of the biggest challenges of my life trying to learn this. As
a result of this
"new" understanding, my oldest son (6.5 yrs) now goes to a charter school
and its working
out great for his specific needs.

I am still unschooling my younger son and I love it, but I'm struggling with
some questions
regarding him. His older brother is an extrovert and extremely outgoing.
Everybody is his
best friend, and now that he's in a school environment, he has a lot of
friends. My other
son, however, is the exact opposite. He is very introverted, bashful, shy...
He has no
friends.

I've tried joining local homeschool groups, doing library story time, etc.,
but he gets
overwhelmed in large groups and just sorta shuts down. He seems to do much
better
one-on-one, so I've tried organizing play dates at our home or places around
town with
just one other "friend", but he doesnt seem to want to have anything to do
with that either.
He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at home), and
seems envious
of his older brother and his friends.

On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me about his

"socialization". I have never been one to worry about "socialization",
because I know for
most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to worry just a
little about
my son.

I suppose if we didn't have the influence of his older brother, it wouldn't
even occur to me
to worry about him. But when I watch him watch his brother and friends so
longingly, it
makes my heart ache. Both my husband and I were also extremely shy growing
up, and it
just hurts to see him going thru similar things. But, of course, we were
forced to go to
school, which made it worse in so many ways, but eventually we both did find
a friend or
two that way...

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not sure what I'm looking for...

Thanks,
Tami





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

I started talking with another mom at a playground in town(we live in
the country) and i was telling her how much people keep to themselves
where we are, unless you go to church,you can't meet anyone. Then she
asked what school my son went too,and told me where her son goes..I
said he was homeschooled but the whole convo kind of just died
at...there was the assumation that he would have friends if he went to
school....<sigh>--- In [email protected], "Tami "
<Tamicamp@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm not new to this group, but took a "year off" from it while our
life was going thru some
> changes.
>
> I'm now a firm believer in finding and doing what's best for the
individual, and what's good
> for one child may not be good for another one. Yeah, it seems
intuitive now, but this past
> year was...one of the biggest challenges of my life trying to learn
this. As a result of this
> "new" understanding, my oldest son (6.5 yrs) now goes to a charter
school and its working
> out great for his specific needs.
>
> I am still unschooling my younger son and I love it, but I'm
struggling with some questions
> regarding him. His older brother is an extrovert and extremely
outgoing. Everybody is his
> best friend, and now that he's in a school environment, he has a lot
of friends. My other
> son, however, is the exact opposite. He is very introverted,
bashful, shy... He has no
> friends.
>
> I've tried joining local homeschool groups, doing library story
time, etc., but he gets
> overwhelmed in large groups and just sorta shuts down. He seems to
do much better
> one-on-one, so I've tried organizing play dates at our home or
places around town with
> just one other "friend", but he doesnt seem to want to have anything
to do with that either.
> He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at
home), and seems envious
> of his older brother and his friends.
>
> On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me
about his
> "socialization". I have never been one to worry about
"socialization", because I know for
> most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to worry
just a little about
> my son.
>
> I suppose if we didn't have the influence of his older brother, it
wouldn't even occur to me
> to worry about him. But when I watch him watch his brother and
friends so longingly, it
> makes my heart ache. Both my husband and I were also extremely shy
growing up, and it
> just hurts to see him going thru similar things. But, of course, we
were forced to go to
> school, which made it worse in so many ways, but eventually we both
did find a friend or
> two that way...
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not sure what I'm looking for...
>
> Thanks,
> Tami
>

Tami

Karen,

Thank you! You've given me some things to think about and a perspective I definitely
needed. I will be referring back to your post many times in the coming days, I think!

Thanks!!
Tami
>
> I would say that if your son doesn't seem bothered by the lack of
> friendships, or if he seems to be content by himself, then it really isn't a
> problem. You do say that he seems lonely. Is he really lonely? Or is that
> more of something that you (or your family) fears because of our societies
> belief that all kids should have a bunch of other kids around them in order
> to be "normal"?
>
> If your son is happier one on one, and is an introvert-honor that about him.
> Growing up, my mom was always pushing me to "make friends" with this bunch
> of kids or that bunch of kids. I really hated that! In fact I ended up
> thinking there was something wrong with me. I was always envious of my
> extroverted friends and thought I was supposed to be more like them. It
> wasn't until my 30s (and a conversation with a great life coach!) that I
> learned that being an introvert wasn't a bad thing-it was who I was!
>
> I hope this is helpful!
>
> Karen
>

scofield62001

Hi Tami,

I wanted to share a story with you about our Shy Daughter.

When she was between the ages of 2 and 5, she would not leave
my side. She would hardly speak to anybody, that included me. The only
males she would speak to were her 2 brothers and her father only when
she had to. So off to PS she went. She was in PS for 4 years. Never out
grew her shyness. She had one or two friends at school but was still
very shy, even at home.

We have been homeschooling/unschooling her for almost 2 years
now, and she never shuts up. She is always talking, dancing around, and
just having fun. Just give your son so time. He too might come out of
his shell one day like our daughter did.

Oneida

Bob Collier

Hi, Tami

That sounds a bit like my daughter and son.

My daughter, who's now 22 and living away from home, is one of the
most outgoing, social people I've ever known. She's always made
friends easily and has plenty of them. My 12 year old home ed son, on
the other hand, has just a few friends that he spends time with only
very occasionally and is otherwise happy to be at home enjoying his
own company.

To me, it's no mystery.

The circumstances of my daughter's 'formative years' provided her
with opportunities every day to connect with others and develop
rewarding relationships. The circumstances of my son's formative
years provided him with very few opportunities to connect with others
never mind develop relationships of any kind. Won't go into the
complicated details! Who knows really how experiences come together
in the mind of the pre-verbal child to form their perceptions of
themselves and the world they live in, but, as I see it, both of my
children have followed the preferences that have made them happy -
those preferences just happen to be, to the outside observer, in
particularly striking contrast.

I was painfully timid and shy myself when I was a boy. Wouldn't speak
unless I was spoken to and, even then, would say as little as
possible before escaping back into my shell. But my son isn't like
that. He's quiet and keeps himself to himself, as the saying goes,
but I wouldn't call him painfully timid and shy. He prefers his own
company to the company of others. Well, so do I, so I don't see that
as any big deal. But his demeanour definitely *is* very noticeably
different to that of his sister. And, yes, when I was my son's age, I
would certainly have envied the ease with which my daughter makes
friends and her popularity wherever she goes.

Well, I did give up being timid and shy a long time ago. In fact, if
you met me now, you might well find me rather 'loud'. I am. But I
still prefer my own company most of the time. That hasn't changed.
Will it change for my son? Maybe, maybe not. It's his choice. No
human behaviour is ever written in stone.

The thing is, he's happy. When I ask him about socialising, making
friends, he says he's fine with the way things are and his body
language tells me he genuinely is. When he's been playing World of
Warcraft all day and I ask him what kind of day he's having, he'll
say "Great!" and his body language tells me that's an honest answer
too.

My daughter was conventionally schooled and was outstandingly
successful. Sometimes, I look at all her wonderful school reports,
her 'certificates of merit', the photos of her as Dux of the Year at
high school, her graduation, the whole collection of academic
memorabilia, and I look at the solitary certificate of merit my son
got in kindergarten before he asked to be taken out of school, and
I scratch my head and wonder about 'what might have been'.

But strange things happen when you want your children to be happy and
choose to work backwards from that. You can discover roads less
travelled that turn out to be the most fabulous of adventures.

All I know is that I'm very proud of both of my children and I'm very
happy that they are who they choose to be.

Bob






--- In [email protected], "Tami " <Tamicamp@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm not new to this group, but took a "year off" from it while our
life was going thru some
> changes.
>
> I'm now a firm believer in finding and doing what's best for the
individual, and what's good
> for one child may not be good for another one. Yeah, it seems
intuitive now, but this past
> year was...one of the biggest challenges of my life trying to learn
this. As a result of this
> "new" understanding, my oldest son (6.5 yrs) now goes to a charter
school and its working
> out great for his specific needs.
>
> I am still unschooling my younger son and I love it, but I'm
struggling with some questions
> regarding him. His older brother is an extrovert and extremely
outgoing. Everybody is his
> best friend, and now that he's in a school environment, he has a
lot of friends. My other
> son, however, is the exact opposite. He is very introverted,
bashful, shy... He has no
> friends.
>
> I've tried joining local homeschool groups, doing library story
time, etc., but he gets
> overwhelmed in large groups and just sorta shuts down. He seems to
do much better
> one-on-one, so I've tried organizing play dates at our home or
places around town with
> just one other "friend", but he doesnt seem to want to have
anything to do with that either.
> He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at
home), and seems envious
> of his older brother and his friends.
>
> On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me
about his
> "socialization". I have never been one to worry
about "socialization", because I know for
> most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to
worry just a little about
> my son.
>
> I suppose if we didn't have the influence of his older brother, it
wouldn't even occur to me
> to worry about him. But when I watch him watch his brother and
friends so longingly, it
> makes my heart ache. Both my husband and I were also extremely shy
growing up, and it
> just hurts to see him going thru similar things. But, of course, we
were forced to go to
> school, which made it worse in so many ways, but eventually we both
did find a friend or
> two that way...
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not sure what I'm looking
for...
>
> Thanks,
> Tami
>

Gold Standard

>>Just give your son so time. He too might come out of
>>his shell one day like our daughter did.<<

Or maybe he just needs to be respected and trusted right now as is. My 19 yo
son has enjoyed his "alone" time, and usually stressed out when I tried to
get him "out of his shell". When he was a child, it took me some time to
realize that...that he was just fine as is. My anxiety about the situation
caused issue...I don't think he would have thought there was anything wrong
with his short one-one-one friend time and abundance of home time with just
us if I didn't stress out a little about it. It took me some time (and
support from brilliant minds like on this list) to let all that go. Right
now we have a beautiful relationship. We are very different from each other,
and we both seem to not only respect that, but appreciate it.

Jacki

hmsdragonfly

--- In [email protected], "Tami " <Tamicamp@...> wrote:
> On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me
> about his "socialization". I have never been one to worry
> about "socialization", because I know for
> most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to
> worry just a little about my son.

What are your choices here? You have a boy who is deeply
uncomfortable in the types of social situations that these family
members think would be good for him. My dh was such a boy, and I can
tell you that being forced into them didn't help him. He threw up
every morning before school! This went on for a while, then he "got
hardened to it" (his words), but he continued to detest every moment
of school and the "socialization" that went with it.

It's hard to imagine that your relatives really want that sort of
experience for your son!

Your alternative is to love him as he is, go at his pace, and trust -
just trust - that all is and will continue to be well. The longing
that you are seeing might simply be a sign of him working this out. I
understand your desire to spare him pain, but maybe, for him, this
*is* a painful choice. Building up to the moment when he chooses the
fun-with-friends over his comfort zone might be one of his life's
toughest challenges. I don't see any benefit to your rushing it, even
in the most gentle of ways.

For your encouragement, I can tell you that my older daughter, now
15, was similarly cautious when she was young. She's still a quiet
sort, but she has numerous friends and (gleefully) travels alone to
friends' houses all over the region. And every step of her journey
from "overly" attached toddler to confident and self-assured young
woman has been at her pace. She's really more sociable than my bubbly
younger daughter these days, with my apparent extrovert more inclined
toward staying home. You just never know.

Your son may never be an extrovert - many people are not - but he'll
probably gain more comfort with interacting with people. I think your
son simply needs time and acceptance and some Very Small Steps (as he
chooses).

Ronnie

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 9, 2008, at 6:08 PM, Bob Collier wrote:

> Who knows really how experiences come together
> in the mind of the pre-verbal child to form their perceptions of
> themselves

And as an introverted child who was sent to school I had one friend
in elementary school (though she lived down the street and I already
knew her) and a handful of girls I hung around with in high school
that were friendships of convenience, I'd guess. Except for one we
didn't keep in contact.

Providing opportunities -- really, in the case of school, forcing
opportunities -- on a child who doesn't want them and would avoid
them if given the chance, doesn't turn that child into one who wants
those opportunities. It gives them plenty of first hand experience in
why they want to avoid them.

Still after all these years (I'm 51) being in a large group of people
I don't know emotionally throws me back into school where I feel like
everyone is staring at me. It's really horrid. Oddly, I'm not really
shy. I'm just naturally not a talker. I never had problems giving
presentations at work. Didn't have any problems at the conference I
spoke at.

From what my husband said of his experience in school, he also felt
awkward, always avoiding calling attention to himself. He's an
introvert too but much more comfortable with people which didn't come
out until well after high school. Now you would never guess he was
awkward in school.

My daughter is also an introvert but she's much more like my husband
is now and probably has a dozen friends. (When she was younger,
though, she only had a couple. I asked her about finding ways to make
new friends and she said she didn't want more friends, just more time
to spend with those she had. (Unfortunately none of them lived
close!)) By not being forced into social situations that made her
uncomfortable she's gotten to be who she is from the beginning.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Shultz

Hi Tami,

Just wanted to echo the comments of others, especially Karen, about
honoring your son's needs. In our family of 5, there is definitely a
range of intro/extrovert personalities, and although I do not refer
to ourselves by those terms in day to day conversation, learning more
about them has definitely informed me. Apparently there are some
very good books about the nature of introvert personalities and how
they can best be nurtured and supported. I simply found the
definitions in one of the books I read, I think Raising Your Spirited
Child, and found them to be thought provoking and helpful.

For me, after discovering the terminology, and how it might apply to
my children (a little light switch of awareness being turned on in my
head, so to speak), it has been really cool to see how awareness of
preferences and communication of those preferences breeds more choice
and more communication. For example, my oldest does not prefer large
group activities, and she takes a long time to "adjust" to people,
her terminology. Learning this helped me to focus more on discussing
activities beforehand, so that we could figure out which ones might
be appealing and which ones wouldn't. Through this extra
communication, I think she has developed a habit of being aware of
which situations feel right and which don't. This sounds really
technical, but it isn't, just plain talk about what she thinks and
feels, at a child's level. Over time, though, it has led to a very
concrete ability on her part to say what she wants, which seems like
a good thing to me. This same awareness seems to be developing in my
younger two as they grow and mature. Does your son feel comfortable
talking about what he wants and doesn't want? At five, he may not
articulate himself in adult language, but should be able to express
preferences that can give you an indication. Shutting down at a
library/playgroup event may be an opportunity to ask him a few light
questions. Also, what do you define as shutting down? Is he an
intense observer, by any chance? I don't have one, but have known
one, and it is pretty common, I think, and not an indication of
shutting down in any way, in fact could be quite the opposite. If
he's at the activity hanging on you and asking to go home, that would
be a different story altogether.

There is not that much of an age difference between your older son
and younger, and so while he may see the new friendships of his older
brother and feel some envy, he might also still be really attached to
the "nest," so social needs may not have surfaced which need to be
met outside of the home at his initiation. Also, having always had
an older sibling, if his older brother has been providing the social
impetus, then maybe he just needs more practice doing this on his
own. It's got to be an adjustment to not have his brother around,
and to be placing social expectations on him in addition to that
could be overly burdensome. If the older brother is having lots of
playdates, is it possible for the younger brother to participate to
some degree when he desires? Do they get along well enough at home
that the older brother would be willing to include his younger
brother sometimes, enough to fill the younger brother's cup, but not
so much that it feels intrusive to the older? If the younger brother
is excluded, is it because the relationship is weak to begin with, or
is it because the older brother is getting pressure from his
schoolmate to do so? To me it would seem totally natural to have all
of the kids play together and whoever wants to participate can,
whoever doesn't doesn't, but perhaps that is not what is happening,
which would be, to me, an opportunity for thought and possible
discussion between yourself and each of the boys.

Take care,

Kelly


On Jan 8, 2008, at 5:23 AM, Tami wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm not new to this group, but took a "year off" from it while our
> life was going thru some
> changes.
>
> I'm now a firm believer in finding and doing what's best for the
> individual, and what's good
> for one child may not be good for another one. Yeah, it seems
> intuitive now, but this past
> year was...one of the biggest challenges of my life trying to learn
> this. As a result of this
> "new" understanding, my oldest son (6.5 yrs) now goes to a charter
> school and its working
> out great for his specific needs.
>
> I am still unschooling my younger son and I love it, but I'm
> struggling with some questions
> regarding him. His older brother is an extrovert and extremely
> outgoing. Everybody is his
> best friend, and now that he's in a school environment, he has a
> lot of friends. My other
> son, however, is the exact opposite. He is very introverted,
> bashful, shy... He has no
> friends.
>
> I've tried joining local homeschool groups, doing library story
> time, etc., but he gets
> overwhelmed in large groups and just sorta shuts down. He seems to
> do much better
> one-on-one, so I've tried organizing play dates at our home or
> places around town with
> just one other "friend", but he doesnt seem to want to have
> anything to do with that either.
> He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at
> home), and seems envious
> of his older brother and his friends.
>
> On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me
> about his
> "socialization". I have never been one to worry about
> "socialization", because I know for
> most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to
> worry just a little about
> my son.
>
> I suppose if we didn't have the influence of his older brother, it
> wouldn't even occur to me
> to worry about him. But when I watch him watch his brother and
> friends so longingly, it
> makes my heart ache. Both my husband and I were also extremely shy
> growing up, and it
> just hurts to see him going thru similar things. But, of course, we
> were forced to go to
> school, which made it worse in so many ways, but eventually we both
> did find a friend or
> two that way...
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not sure what I'm looking for...
>
> Thanks,
> Tami
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tami

To all who responded:

Thank you so much! As I mentioned, its been over a year since I was on this board, and I had
forgotten how wise and wonderful you all are. I will be keeping all your responses, and
referring back to them often, especially at those times when I feel the pressure to have him
be "more sociable".

Thanks Again!
Tami

Sandra Dodd

The shyest little girl I knew went to south America by herself when
she was a teen. She was going to a program, but she didn't know
anyone else there in advance and she flew alone, and had raised the
money to do it. She went to college pretty far away, too. But when
she was four and five and would come to our house, she wouldn't leave
her mother's lap at first.

I've seen some such kids enjoy playing near kids they didn't really
need to "meet," like at parks or "playlands" (Burger King or
McDonald's play places). Watching other children, being near them,
interacting just minimally, can be good. Moms shouldn't press them
to learn names or "go over there." Just let them be there without
pressure, and go home when they want to go home.

Sandra

Amanda Horein

I have an extroverted 7 year old and an introverted 4 year old. My dd(7)
will walk up to anyone and talk their ear off, but if someone approaches her
she gets called "shy" because she backs away.

My dd(4) rarely talks to someone she doesn't know and always backs away when
someone approaches her. Gatherings for her can be awful. She has to sit
back and survey the situation before she will have anything to do with
anyone but mom at the gathering. We could have had a lot of issues with
that over this past holiday, but I recognized what she was going through and
I respected that. Usually about half way through the gatherings she found a
playmate and was fine.

You may want to consider reading the book "raising your spirited child". It
has quite a bit of good info about introvert vs extrovert.

Forgive me for my judgement, you sound like an extrovert. You simply cannot
understand why your son needs/wants to be alone. My dh and dd(7) are like
that too. If I get a moment to myself (like when I need to go upstairs and
meditate) they only leave me alone for a short time (once I told dh I needed
20 minutes. He came up after 15 because he just NEEDED to tell me
something).

I would be careful about some of the judgements you are passing on to your
son. You said...

"He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at home), and
seems envious of his older brother and his friends."

I wonder if that is your perception or if it is really his feelings. I
think probably the earlier. I loved playing alone when I was a kid.
Thankfully I had an introverted mother who understood that is what I needed.
Maybe that is what HE needs.

It sounds to me that you need to do a little more accepting of your son the
way he is and stop putting him in situations that are uncomfortable to him.

--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (nearly 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3)
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/

My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Forgive me for my judgement, you sound like an extrovert. You
simply cannot
understand why your son needs/wants to be alone. My dh and dd(7) are
like
that too. If I get a moment to myself (like when I need to go
upstairs and
meditate) they only leave me alone for a short time (once I told dh I
needed
20 minutes. He came up after 15 because he just NEEDED to tell me
something).-=-

In our family, my husband is introverted and I'm not. I bugged the
heck out of him the first few years we were together, just going in
the garage or wherever he was trying in vain to be by himself and
talking to him, seeing if he was mad at me because he was ignoring
me, seeing if he wanted to go somewhere.



We've been together nearly thirty years now (a few months shy of
that) and I'm glad I learned more about Keith's needs for alone time,
because one of our children is quite that way and the other two
aren't. So it's good, too, that Keith wasn't surprised by those
suddenly-noisy two.

Before I had kids someone was on Phil Donahue, I think, saying that
the most difficult problem in parenting was if two introverted
parents had an extrovert child, or vice versa. The parents would
spend lots of energy thinking there was something wrong with that
child, and treating him in all kinds of irritating ways.

Unschooling can allow for a child to make his or her own choices
about when and where and how.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

harmony

My daughter was extremely shy. She began talking very early and very well. When she was almost 4 people would comment "Oh, that is so good she is finally learning to talk" I was shocked. Then I realized no one ever heard her. She would talk non stop at home, but was mute when anyone was around.
Now she is 8. We were at kmart last night and she needed to use the restroom. I told her to go ask someone where it is. She went and did it and came back. Then she wanted a price on something and I told her to go ask. She did. She was happy and eager and excited. Then I remembered just a year or 2 ago when she would have freaked out if I asked her to talk to someone. I commented on this to her and she said " I got used to it when I sold all those girl scout cookies"
When she had a need and a desire to talk to people she did and she realized that people arent so scary. She sold 1000 boxes of cookies last year. It was her goal and I told her I'd take her, but she was the girl scout, so she needs to sell them. She did and she was very proud of herself.


> -------Original Message-------
> From: Kelly Shultz <kashultz@...>
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Very shy 5 yr old
> Sent: Jan 10 '08 5:02am
>
> Hi Tami,
>
> Just wanted to echo the comments of others, especially Karen, about
> honoring your son's needs. In our family of 5, there is definitely a
> range of intro/extrovert personalities, and although I do not refer
> to ourselves by those terms in day to day conversation, learning more
> about them has definitely informed me. Apparently there are some
> very good books about the nature of introvert personalities and how
> they can best be nurtured and supported. I simply found the
> definitions in one of the books I read, I think Raising Your Spirited
> Child, and found them to be thought provoking and helpful.
>
> For me, after discovering the terminology, and how it might apply to
> my children (a little light switch of awareness being turned on in my
> head, so to speak), it has been really cool to see how awareness of
> preferences and communication of those preferences breeds more choice
> and more communication. For example, my oldest does not prefer large
> group activities, and she takes a long time to "adjust" to people,
> her terminology. Learning this helped me to focus more on discussing
> activities beforehand, so that we could figure out which ones might
> be appealing and which ones wouldn't. Through this extra
> communication, I think she has developed a habit of being aware of
> which situations feel right and which don't. This sounds really
> technical, but it isn't, just plain talk about what she thinks and
> feels, at a child's level. Over time, though, it has led to a very
> concrete ability on her part to say what she wants, which seems like
> a good thing to me. This same awareness seems to be developing in my
> younger two as they grow and mature. Does your son feel comfortable
> talking about what he wants and doesn't want? At five, he may not
> articulate himself in adult language, but should be able to express
> preferences that can give you an indication. Shutting down at a
> library/playgroup event may be an opportunity to ask him a few light
> questions. Also, what do you define as shutting down? Is he an
> intense observer, by any chance? I don't have one, but have known
> one, and it is pretty common, I think, and not an indication of
> shutting down in any way, in fact could be quite the opposite. If
> he's at the activity hanging on you and asking to go home, that would
> be a different story altogether.
>
> There is not that much of an age difference between your older son
> and younger, and so while he may see the new friendships of his older
> brother and feel some envy, he might also still be really attached to
> the "nest," so social needs may not have surfaced which need to be
> met outside of the home at his initiation. Also, having always had
> an older sibling, if his older brother has been providing the social
> impetus, then maybe he just needs more practice doing this on his
> own. It's got to be an adjustment to not have his brother around,
> and to be placing social expectations on him in addition to that
> could be overly burdensome. If the older brother is having lots of
> playdates, is it possible for the younger brother to participate to
> some degree when he desires? Do they get along well enough at home
> that the older brother would be willing to include his younger
> brother sometimes, enough to fill the younger brother's cup, but not
> so much that it feels intrusive to the older? If the younger brother
> is excluded, is it because the relationship is weak to begin with, or
> is it because the older brother is getting pressure from his
> schoolmate to do so? To me it would seem totally natural to have all
> of the kids play together and whoever wants to participate can,
> whoever doesn't doesn't, but perhaps that is not what is happening,
> which would be, to me, an opportunity for thought and possible
> discussion between yourself and each of the boys.
>
> Take care,
>
> Kelly
>
> On Jan 8, 2008, at 5:23 AM, Tami wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm not new to this group, but took a "year off" from it while our
> > life was going thru some
> > changes.
> >
> > I'm now a firm believer in finding and doing what's best for the
> > individual, and what's good
> > for one child may not be good for another one. Yeah, it seems
> > intuitive now, but this past
> > year was...one of the biggest challenges of my life trying to learn
> > this. As a result of this
> > "new" understanding, my oldest son (6.5 yrs) now goes to a charter
> > school and its working
> > out great for his specific needs.
> >
> > I am still unschooling my younger son and I love it, but I'm
> > struggling with some questions
> > regarding him. His older brother is an extrovert and extremely
> > outgoing. Everybody is his
> > best friend, and now that he's in a school environment, he has a
> > lot of friends. My other
> > son, however, is the exact opposite. He is very introverted,
> > bashful, shy... He has no
> > friends.
> >
> > I've tried joining local homeschool groups, doing library story
> > time, etc., but he gets
> > overwhelmed in large groups and just sorta shuts down. He seems to
> > do much better
> > one-on-one, so I've tried organizing play dates at our home or
> > places around town with
> > just one other "friend", but he doesnt seem to want to have
> > anything to do with that either.
> > He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at
> > home), and seems envious
> > of his older brother and his friends.
> >
> > On top of this, I have a few family memebers who are pressuring me
> > about his
> > "socialization". I have never been one to worry about
> > "socialization", because I know for
> > most home/unschoolers that's a non-issue. But I am starting to
> > worry just a little about
> > my son.
> >
> > I suppose if we didn't have the influence of his older brother, it
> > wouldn't even occur to me
> > to worry about him. But when I watch him watch his brother and
> > friends so longingly, it
> > makes my heart ache. Both my husband and I were also extremely shy
> > growing up, and it
> > just hurts to see him going thru similar things. But, of course, we
> > were forced to go to
> > school, which made it worse in so many ways, but eventually we both
> > did find a friend or
> > two that way...
> >
> > Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm not sure what I'm looking for...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tami
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Reading this kind of made me laugh at myself. I am an extremely
shy extrovert. I love being around people all the time. Yet I am so
shy that I just won't usually talk to them or interact, but I love
people. I am getting better because I am forcing myself to talk.
My husband is the one with great people skills. He does wonderfully
teaching large groups of people (part of his old job) being around
big crowds, etc.. When he goes somewhere, he quickly becomes the
center of attention. (unlike me hiding in the corner!) Yet, he would
rather be alone.-=-



This is really interesting. My husband has an "on" that he can use
in public and be very outgoing and persuasive and organizational, and
then when he gets home he has to turn it off. I used to take it
personally, but now I don't. He uses it at work sometimes, and
they'll fly him places to make presentations or go to meetings even
though he looks like a hippie compared to the military-looking
engineer types he mostly works with, because he's good in meetings
and groups. But when they're in other cities, he doesn't want to go
to dinner with the other guys much or socialize. He goes back to the
hotel and watches TV. Or when they were in souther California and
were going to meet at the Getty museum, he never found the rest of
the group, but he loved seeing the museum by himself.

He'll go to a movie alone and not feel pitiful. Me, I've seen two
movies alone and was so distracted by the discomfort of being by
myself there that I could hardly watch the movie. The Color of
Purple (where I sat right between two strangers at a theater that no
longer exists) and Othello (where I sat alone, and discovered on exit
that two of my friends were there and I still wish I had seen them
before the movie started so I wouldn't have been alone).

Is that too much trauma for movie watching? Maybe. But my husband
has a hard time imagining it. And I have a hard time thinking he
wouldn't rather have me or one of the kids go with him to the movies.

Let shy kids let you know what they want to do.

When I think about "socialization," I think about pioneer families
and ranch families before automobiles and radios and phones. Maybe
they saw other kids at church sometimes. Maybe they saw cousins or
neighbors a few times a year.



Sandra

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:: anne | arun ::

Hi Tami,

i normally only lurk on this list but the description of your
children reflected my own experience closely... so despite many rich
responses to your post already i thought id throw in something also.

i was the youngest of three. My older brother was very outgoing � a
joker and very sporty, he was well known to children and teachers alike.

i was not :)

My language was apparently relatively "delayed" (by external
measures, not mine obviously) and my parents theory in hindsight was
that it was because i had little interest in talking to people.

i went to school, however one of the things that "defined" me was the
way my parents accepted who i was and supported me. For example in my
family we often had relatives and guests over at our house (large
indian family). I tended to spend most of my time in my room or,
during one period, if in the "family room" set up a large cardboard
box to play in and get some space to myself.

While this may have disturbed many, my parents responded by buying a
tent and set it up in the corner of the family room so i could be
around the action and in my own space also :D

I wish i was unschooled to allow this nurturing approach to have
occurred more holistically however even in the context of school my
parent's acceptance allowed me to grow and connect with people more
on my own terms, in my own time. It was generally the expectation of
school peers and culture (birthday parties, socials etc) that i found
challenging, not my situation per se. As far as i remember i was
quite content when not feeling like i had to live up to something.

It was not until some time in my early twenties that i started to
value connection with broader community & people much more and made
the necessary shifts around my hermit nature accordingly. Today
people that know me would not believe that i was such a recluse...
most would describe me as outgoing and quite "socially capable". My
brother is too... we just took very different paths (and still do).

arun
_____________________________________________

http://www.theparentingpit.com








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tami

> Forgive me for my judgement, you sound like an extrovert. You simply cannot
> understand why your son needs/wants to be alone.

What's so sad is that I *am* an introvert and I can *totally* relate to my son. If I don't get
time to myself each day, I start to feel like I am losing my mind. I get up at 5 am every day
just to sit and have a cup of coffee while the house is silent, so that I can just BE for a
while before the day starts. But my other two children are so extroverted... they talk at me
all day long and are always "on". Sometimes I worry that my son gets "lost" in the midst of
the other two. And when its just he and I alone (which is rare) and we each do our own
thing, I feel like there is something wrong, because he's not needing to talk at/with me
and follow me all over the place. Does that make sense? So even tho I'm an introvert in a
house full of extroverts, I forget that my son shares the same characteristics.


> I would be careful about some of the judgements you are passing on to your
> son. You said... "He seems very lonely (even tho he also has a younger sister at home),
>and seems envious of his older brother and his friends."
> I wonder if that is your perception or if it is really his feelings.

Yes, aftr reading responses, I have been wondering that myself.


> It sounds to me that you need to do a little more accepting of your son the
> way he is and stop putting him in situations that are uncomfortable to him.

You're right. And he is *such* a wonderful person, so sweet, caring, loving and
considerate. But..my husband and mother-in-law are always putting doubts into my
mind, (especial my mother-in-law) and in my efforts to appease them (her) I am doing to
my son exactly what I didn't want to do.

Thanks,
Tami

Sandra Dodd

-=-While this may have disturbed many, my parents responded by buying a
tent and set it up in the corner of the family room so i could be
around the action and in my own space also :D
-=-

That's very sweet!

For years we had a weekly park meeting, and sometimes there were kids
who preferred to be in the car for part of the time, and all the moms
were cool about it because (I think because) it was originally a La
Leche League based group, and then became an unschooling group, so
pressures were minimal. And we'd kinda keep the other kids away from
the cars too. If they wanted to invite a kid out, that was fine, but
mostly we'd say "He'll come out when he's done with that chapter/
level/drawing" or whatever, and they did!

I love the image of the tent in the room.

There are a fair number of examples of years-ago buildings with a
teeny window from an upstairs bedroom into the great hall or
ballroom. Nowadays I suppose that might be video security cameras.
<g> But for someone to get to watch a while before deciding to join
seems sensible and civilized.


Sandra

[email protected]

Tami <Tamicamp@...> wrote:
You're right. And he is *such* a wonderful person, so sweet, caring, loving and
considerate. But..my husband and mother-in-law are always putting doubts into my
mind, (especial my mother-in-law) and in my efforts to appease them (her) I am doing to
my son exactly what I didn't want to do.

Thanks,
Tami


Hi Tami,

Sorry about the last post. I hit send before I was ready. I am not really good at putting my thoughts into words. but here goes.

I can relate to the Mother in-law thing. I have always worried about what other people say or think. I have missed out on a lot in life because of being worried what others might think. NOT anymore.... I have found that you can't live your life, when you are living your life for somebody else.I still find myself slipping backwards sometimes, but boy it is great to be alive....

Oneida


---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

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Sandra Dodd

-=-I have found that you can't live your life, when you are living
your life for somebody else.-=-

If one lives her life to be a good mother to her children, it's a
total two-for-one deal.
If someone continues to be her mother's child after she's a mother,
that can cause problems for the REAL children.

Here's something to consider, about children's children:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u5tmnBeNv18

Sandra

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Pamela Sorooshian

Roxana has never wanted a lot of friends. I was so different and her
older sister was so different, it was always hard for me to believe
she was absolutely fine with an in-person friend or two plus a zillion
online friends, and I've always made an effort to create social
situations for her to make more friends, but she just really didn't
want them. Now she's 20 and she is perfectly sociable and has some
friends - but they still aren't the kinds of intense hang-out-together-
almost-every-day kinds of friendships I had at her age. She's a little
shy, a bit reserved until she feels comfortable with people. She chose
to stay home on New Year's Eve and hang out with her younger sister,
rather than go to a party at a friend's house.

But - she's going to France for 3 months with a group of 40 or so
other college students and a couple of professors. She leaves Feb 8th.
She's scared, but she is going. And a couple of the girls already
asked her to share a room with them - so she's looking forward to
making friends with them.

-pam

On Jan 10, 2008, at 4:10 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> The shyest little girl I knew went to south America by herself when
> she was a teen.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 10, 2008, at 5:47 AM, harmony wrote:

> Then I remembered just a year or 2 ago when she would have freaked
> out if I asked her to talk to someone.

That reminded me - something else about Roxana - she was 14 or 15
before she would talk to clerks in stores, order for herself in a
restaurant, etc. She'd always tell me what she wanted and I'd say it
for her.

Well - so now, at 20, she works in a department store - talks to
customers all the time and is quite comfortable and charming.

And, yeah, she orders for herself in restaurants! <G>

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-That reminded me - something else about Roxana - she was 14 or 15
before she would talk to clerks in stores, order for herself in a
restaurant, etc. She'd always tell me what she wanted and I'd say it
for her.-=-

Tonight Holly and I went to a video game store to get something for
Marty. As we were entering, she said "You're going to do the
talking, right?" She knows more about the systems, and once the guy
started talking to us, Holly took over and was joking and being
funny, but she couldn't easily initiate the questions and the
assistance.

Holly's 16.

Sandra

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Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> > When I think about "socialization," I think about pioneer families
> and ranch families before automobiles and radios and phones. Maybe
> they saw other kids at church sometimes. Maybe they saw cousins or
> neighbors a few times a year.
>


LOL

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my son a couple of years ago
when the subject of socialisation arose. I observed that his lifestyle
was similar to that of children living in the Outback, on cattle
stations and the like sometimes hundreds of miles from the nearest
settlement, so it wasn't as strange as some people might think.

Bob

emmy

i can remember too around holly's age asking my mom to say things for me. initiating a conversation was incredibly painful! if my mom wouldnt do it...i would just avoid the conversation. she didn't give me a hard time about it...just sometimes urged me to speak up. i was shy then, am an introvert but i could be very loud too if i chose. i would go from one extreme to the other. i would then need to "recharge" by being by myself. i needed then and still do to be alone...most often there is no music or "noise". if i do not have my alone time i otherwise get overwhelmed and can feel the cranky coming on. i'm no longer uncomfortable in front of people though,actually very confident and i speak to very large crowds. YET i still enjoy being quiet and often wish i didn't have to speak vocally. since i don't have the fear i once had...and i finally figured out its just my nature- i just truly like the quiet and that is OK. if i would have known or been /encouraged more that this was common maybe i wouldn't have felt so misplaced. it also may (or may not) be because i'm hypersensative to sound who knows.

my oldest son is like this. my youngest LOVES people and thrives off of activity. he is just like my husband. i enjoy their exuberance. its quite a contrasting life, although sometimes i'm tired by just watching them. haha

emmy

www.foundthings.etsy.com
www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com


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