Re: [AlwaysLearning]educated inlaws was: Re: my talk with a stranger
[email protected]
Patty, definately it's always about perception and this spurred my own need to vent and get feedback on the particulars of our situation. As i am not worried about the comments or concerns coming from strangers however it's the family. very supportive and mostly positive But in this case we have a world-traveled, very intellectual teacher who is very close with our kids. Basically she thinks my son is missing out on so much and struggling from not reading. While my concerns are there too (he is almost 10) I do see him growing every day and can appreciate his learning in so many ways that arent about reading. I guess, they (inlaws and sil) _are_ showing concern more than they are judging but when you hear the restrained tone and see 'the look' in their eyes as I speak it's difficult to think they arent judging me.
~Laura-MOm of two wonderful unschooled kids~
~Laura-MOm of two wonderful unschooled kids~
>From: pattywithawhy@...
>Date: 2007/11/24 Sat AM 11:22:04 CST
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: my talk with a stranger
>
><<I can only hope she thinks it over more but in the mean-time i wonder if
>her judging us is your typical human behavior done so as to take the pressure
>off of ones own issues.>>
>
>I think there's something to that. I wonder if it works the other way
>sometimes too, like we *think* people are judging us because we're judging
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Basically she thinks my son is missing out on so much and
struggling from not reading. While my concerns are there too (he is
almost 10) I do see him growing every day and can appreciate his
learning in so many ways that arent about reading. I guess, they
(inlaws and sil) _are_ showing concern more than they are judging but
when you hear the restrained tone and see 'the look' in their eyes as
I speak it's difficult to think they arent judging me. -=-
Judgment is part of the way people think. "Judgment" has a negative
connotation, but then we hope for our kids to use good judgment.
It's worth paraphrasing when the thought "judgment" comes up.
So what they're judging you? If they were saying your kids were more
impressive than schoolkids, that would be judgment but you probably
wouldn't be complaining!
Maybe you could offer to put her concerns in writing, which the two
of you could read now and then open and read again together in ten
years.
That might make her feel better. And she'll probably decline.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
struggling from not reading. While my concerns are there too (he is
almost 10) I do see him growing every day and can appreciate his
learning in so many ways that arent about reading. I guess, they
(inlaws and sil) _are_ showing concern more than they are judging but
when you hear the restrained tone and see 'the look' in their eyes as
I speak it's difficult to think they arent judging me. -=-
Judgment is part of the way people think. "Judgment" has a negative
connotation, but then we hope for our kids to use good judgment.
It's worth paraphrasing when the thought "judgment" comes up.
So what they're judging you? If they were saying your kids were more
impressive than schoolkids, that would be judgment but you probably
wouldn't be complaining!
Maybe you could offer to put her concerns in writing, which the two
of you could read now and then open and read again together in ten
years.
That might make her feel better. And she'll probably decline.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< a world-traveled, very intellectual teacher who is very close with our
kids. Basically she thinks my son is missing out on so much and struggling
from not reading. >>>>
One of the things about teachers and reading is that they have a vision of
how reading happens starting with special books containing two word
sentences and lots of repetitive sounding words and very much baby subject
matter. I suspect that they then have a fear that an older person learning
to read at 10 or 12 or 14 must necessarily start "at the beginning" with
this kind of early material and progress in the regular schoolish way
through material of increasing complexity.
The experience of Unschoolers appears to be that "later" readers begin
magically at age appropriate and interest driven material like Steven King
novels or game walkthroughs and technical manuals. This seems to be Jayn's
experience as she is looking at and starting to decipher the words in her
enironment, many of which are game instructions or magazine articles. The
material of interest reflects the high sophistication of the child's
*spoken* vocabulary.
They aren't following the usual sequence and they aren't trapped in toddler
land either.
This is a very reassuring idea, don't you think?
Robyn L. Coburn
kids. Basically she thinks my son is missing out on so much and struggling
from not reading. >>>>
One of the things about teachers and reading is that they have a vision of
how reading happens starting with special books containing two word
sentences and lots of repetitive sounding words and very much baby subject
matter. I suspect that they then have a fear that an older person learning
to read at 10 or 12 or 14 must necessarily start "at the beginning" with
this kind of early material and progress in the regular schoolish way
through material of increasing complexity.
The experience of Unschoolers appears to be that "later" readers begin
magically at age appropriate and interest driven material like Steven King
novels or game walkthroughs and technical manuals. This seems to be Jayn's
experience as she is looking at and starting to decipher the words in her
enironment, many of which are game instructions or magazine articles. The
material of interest reflects the high sophistication of the child's
*spoken* vocabulary.
They aren't following the usual sequence and they aren't trapped in toddler
land either.
This is a very reassuring idea, don't you think?
Robyn L. Coburn
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 24, 2007, at 4:46 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
everyone they've influenced, are convinced that reading is the best
source for learning, all other ways are vastly inferior.
It's just not true. Reading is the most *efficient* way for assembly
line learning to happen. It's the most efficient way for one teacher
to lead 30 kids through the same material.
But it's no more best than any other way people learn, or only best
if that's the way a particular person learns best. But teachers don't
realize they don't know how to help individual children learn.
They've only learned how to lead a crowd through material in a way
that's testable and recordable and accountable.
So when they say a child needs such and such, what they really mean
-- without realizing it -- is a child *in school* being lead through
a programmed sequence of learning needs such and such in order for
the average in the classroom to stay at adequate levels.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> One of the things about teachers and reading is that they have aAlso that reading is the key to knowledge. Teachers, and just about
> vision of
> how reading happens
everyone they've influenced, are convinced that reading is the best
source for learning, all other ways are vastly inferior.
It's just not true. Reading is the most *efficient* way for assembly
line learning to happen. It's the most efficient way for one teacher
to lead 30 kids through the same material.
But it's no more best than any other way people learn, or only best
if that's the way a particular person learns best. But teachers don't
realize they don't know how to help individual children learn.
They've only learned how to lead a crowd through material in a way
that's testable and recordable and accountable.
So when they say a child needs such and such, what they really mean
-- without realizing it -- is a child *in school* being lead through
a programmed sequence of learning needs such and such in order for
the average in the classroom to stay at adequate levels.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Thanks. This is all very true.
The comment was made more or less to the effect:" What about when his friends can read things and he cant? I know he feels bad for not reading"
-First, i told them that his friends help him when they're playing a game.
- as to the next concern, I told them that he usually does feel badly about anyhing he has trouble with- that's how he is. I thought later that maybe their perception is that he feels outstandingly badly because of his not reading, But it's mostly their perception and certainly their slight comments when i'm not there could be part of the equation. He is a very sensitive kid and i dont doubt for a minute that when his pap-pap asks him to read something there is absolute zero pressure.
Laura
The comment was made more or less to the effect:" What about when his friends can read things and he cant? I know he feels bad for not reading"
-First, i told them that his friends help him when they're playing a game.
- as to the next concern, I told them that he usually does feel badly about anyhing he has trouble with- that's how he is. I thought later that maybe their perception is that he feels outstandingly badly because of his not reading, But it's mostly their perception and certainly their slight comments when i'm not there could be part of the equation. He is a very sensitive kid and i dont doubt for a minute that when his pap-pap asks him to read something there is absolute zero pressure.
Laura
>From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
>Date: 2007/11/24 Sat PM 05:01:31 CST
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning]educated inlaws was: Re: my talk with a stranger
>
>
>On Nov 24, 2007, at 4:46 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
>
>> One of the things about teachers and reading is that they have a
>> vision of
>> how reading happens
>
>Also that reading is the key to knowledge. Teachers, and just about
>everyone they've influenced, are convinced that reading is the best
>source for learning, all other ways are vastly inferior.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[email protected]
Yes! REASURING most definately as i recall telling them that I've read about these "late" readers who do pick up the big books and just take off. My inlaws wouldnt have any idea that this CAN happen. who would?
Laura
Laura
>From: "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
>Date: 2007/11/24 Sat PM 03:46:14 CST
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning]educated inlaws was: Re: my talk with a stranger
>
>
>This is a very reassuring idea, don't you think?
>
>Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes! REASURING most definately as i recall telling them that I've
read about these "late" readers who do pick up the big books and just
take off. My inlaws wouldnt have any idea that this CAN happen. who
would? -=-
It surprised me.
I had a few friends who could read well before they went to school.
I had never thought very hard about it. Vaguely I had thoughts like
maybe their moms helped them, or they were just some kind of language
prodigies, or just quick at whatever all reading took. But none of
them were longterm "geniuses." One is a good writer, and he did okay
in school but not fantastic.
So that data was just kinda left scattery in my brain and I hadn't
looked at it until after I saw how my kids learned to read.
The saddest thing I've heard from people about their early reading is
that once they could read their parents stopped reading to them, so
they were sorry they had learned so early. A child who "can read"
might not be reading really fluently and that will relegate him to
easy books, or to reading slowly and painstakingly. Kids in school
reported the same thing; I remember it myself. When my mom read to
me it was Winnie the Pooh, Uncle Remus and poetry. I wish she'd read
way more but we didn't have any books. When I came home with A's in
reading, it all ended, and I was stuck with my schoolbooks and
"Little Golden Books" (some weren't bad, but still they were short
and for kids) and comic books (one a week if I was lucky).
My kids didn't start reading phonetically, or maybe I didn't call
phonetic stumbling "reading." School does. It misleads everyone
involved. Even "the good readers" feel there's something wrong when
the teacher says "you can read" but there are words all around them
they can't read.
When my kids could read, all words looked legible. WERE "legible."
They could read like real people, not like first graders or second
graders or third graders.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
read about these "late" readers who do pick up the big books and just
take off. My inlaws wouldnt have any idea that this CAN happen. who
would? -=-
It surprised me.
I had a few friends who could read well before they went to school.
I had never thought very hard about it. Vaguely I had thoughts like
maybe their moms helped them, or they were just some kind of language
prodigies, or just quick at whatever all reading took. But none of
them were longterm "geniuses." One is a good writer, and he did okay
in school but not fantastic.
So that data was just kinda left scattery in my brain and I hadn't
looked at it until after I saw how my kids learned to read.
The saddest thing I've heard from people about their early reading is
that once they could read their parents stopped reading to them, so
they were sorry they had learned so early. A child who "can read"
might not be reading really fluently and that will relegate him to
easy books, or to reading slowly and painstakingly. Kids in school
reported the same thing; I remember it myself. When my mom read to
me it was Winnie the Pooh, Uncle Remus and poetry. I wish she'd read
way more but we didn't have any books. When I came home with A's in
reading, it all ended, and I was stuck with my schoolbooks and
"Little Golden Books" (some weren't bad, but still they were short
and for kids) and comic books (one a week if I was lucky).
My kids didn't start reading phonetically, or maybe I didn't call
phonetic stumbling "reading." School does. It misleads everyone
involved. Even "the good readers" feel there's something wrong when
the teacher says "you can read" but there are words all around them
they can't read.
When my kids could read, all words looked legible. WERE "legible."
They could read like real people, not like first graders or second
graders or third graders.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
juillet727
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:
I find that teacher/friends always ask me at what level my (8yr) son
is reading. I never know what to say. His reading ability is anywhere
from easy readers (but not all of them) to complex gaming instructions
(but not every word on the level), to reading each recipe title in the
cookbook I'm reading. It's in no way a straight linear path at all.
And it definitely doesn't look like how school said it happens.
~~Juillet
wrote:
> One of the things about teachers and reading is that they have avision of
> how reading happens starting with special books containing two wordsubject
> sentences and lots of repetitive sounding words and very much baby
> matter.***********
I find that teacher/friends always ask me at what level my (8yr) son
is reading. I never know what to say. His reading ability is anywhere
from easy readers (but not all of them) to complex gaming instructions
(but not every word on the level), to reading each recipe title in the
cookbook I'm reading. It's in no way a straight linear path at all.
And it definitely doesn't look like how school said it happens.
~~Juillet