Re: tv, video, and unschooling
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/28/2002 6:21:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
video, and video games. There have been times they watched a LOT of tv. There
are times when I've seen one of them just turn on the tv when she can't think
of anything else to do or when she's tired and cranky and wants distraction
or to empty her overactive brain and just calm down. Oh wait, maybe that was
actually me <BEG>.
We got wireless headphones so my husband can watch sports stuff without the
rest of us having to listen to it all the time. I got two sets, so sometimes
a couple of people will be watching a movie while the rest of us are in the
same room reading or playing a game or something else.
We have cable with seemingly unlimited channels - there's almost always
something good on. I think having so many options actually means we just
accept it that we're going to miss good stuff and there's less concern about
it. My husband and I and my 14 yo always seem to find time to look through
the PBS program guide and put a few things on the calendar that we really
don't want to miss. She looks because she's into opera and musical stuff. We
look for the drama and documentaries.
TV is not a problem at all here. The kids have plenty of other things to do
and they'd rather do those things unless there is something they want to
watch on tv. I'd say that my 17 yo watches maybe 2 to 4 hours a week. The 14
yo watches probably 4 to 6 hours a week. The 11 yo watches about 4 to 6
hours a week. Some weeks we might watch more - we might watch a bunch of
movies in one week, for example. But I'd say that is pretty typical for the
kids to choose to watch unless their dad or I encourages them to watch
something with us.
I think that with young kids, though, that they can get "caught up" in
watching tv, if it is on all the time. And they can get sort of "stuck" and
not be able to move away from the tv on their own, to find something else to
do. So you might have to be aware of that and make sure that life is filled
with interesting and enticing alternatives. Sometimes people complain that
their kids don't want to do anything but watch tv and yet it seems like maybe
their lifestyle isn't as exciting and attractive as watching tv. I mean -
what kid would say, "NO I want to watch the Brady Bunch, if you were offering
to take them out to ride on ponies, for example."
So- if my kids were choosing to watch what seemed to be excessive amounts of
tv, I guess I'd want to look really carefully at whether or not I was really
providing an environment that could compete with tv. In other words, I could
just turn off the tv -- but that doesn't improve the kids options, that
limits them. Why not entice them away by making the other options more
desirable. I think it is hard for some people to figure out how, when you
have young children, to keep house, keep clean laundry around, feed
everybody, and STILL provide a really stimulating environment. It may feel
like you have to give up on the housekeeping and other things in order to be
as available as they need. That may be true. It isn't really "available" if
you're just "there" physically in the house, but busy doing laundry and
washing dishes and so on.
This last stuff may not be the issue at all for the person who posted the
original question -- just something to consider.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> *** I do let the kiddos decide much of theirMine are 17, 14, and 11 and they have always had unlimited access to tv,
> world. Mine are little, 7, 5, 2. I wish I had no TV. would be much easier.
> I do find the kids need to have more interactive, real experiences and less
> passive ones, so I limit their TV.***
video, and video games. There have been times they watched a LOT of tv. There
are times when I've seen one of them just turn on the tv when she can't think
of anything else to do or when she's tired and cranky and wants distraction
or to empty her overactive brain and just calm down. Oh wait, maybe that was
actually me <BEG>.
We got wireless headphones so my husband can watch sports stuff without the
rest of us having to listen to it all the time. I got two sets, so sometimes
a couple of people will be watching a movie while the rest of us are in the
same room reading or playing a game or something else.
We have cable with seemingly unlimited channels - there's almost always
something good on. I think having so many options actually means we just
accept it that we're going to miss good stuff and there's less concern about
it. My husband and I and my 14 yo always seem to find time to look through
the PBS program guide and put a few things on the calendar that we really
don't want to miss. She looks because she's into opera and musical stuff. We
look for the drama and documentaries.
TV is not a problem at all here. The kids have plenty of other things to do
and they'd rather do those things unless there is something they want to
watch on tv. I'd say that my 17 yo watches maybe 2 to 4 hours a week. The 14
yo watches probably 4 to 6 hours a week. The 11 yo watches about 4 to 6
hours a week. Some weeks we might watch more - we might watch a bunch of
movies in one week, for example. But I'd say that is pretty typical for the
kids to choose to watch unless their dad or I encourages them to watch
something with us.
I think that with young kids, though, that they can get "caught up" in
watching tv, if it is on all the time. And they can get sort of "stuck" and
not be able to move away from the tv on their own, to find something else to
do. So you might have to be aware of that and make sure that life is filled
with interesting and enticing alternatives. Sometimes people complain that
their kids don't want to do anything but watch tv and yet it seems like maybe
their lifestyle isn't as exciting and attractive as watching tv. I mean -
what kid would say, "NO I want to watch the Brady Bunch, if you were offering
to take them out to ride on ponies, for example."
So- if my kids were choosing to watch what seemed to be excessive amounts of
tv, I guess I'd want to look really carefully at whether or not I was really
providing an environment that could compete with tv. In other words, I could
just turn off the tv -- but that doesn't improve the kids options, that
limits them. Why not entice them away by making the other options more
desirable. I think it is hard for some people to figure out how, when you
have young children, to keep house, keep clean laundry around, feed
everybody, and STILL provide a really stimulating environment. It may feel
like you have to give up on the housekeeping and other things in order to be
as available as they need. That may be true. It isn't really "available" if
you're just "there" physically in the house, but busy doing laundry and
washing dishes and so on.
This last stuff may not be the issue at all for the person who posted the
original question -- just something to consider.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Pam wrote this important thing:
<< I could
just turn off the tv -- but that doesn't improve the kids options, that
limits them. >>
I have seen families who want unschooling to magically appear in the way they
have imagined it: The moms do whatever they want on their own, in quietude,
while the kids energetically reproduce the school's curriculum in creative
ways.
In schools, windows are often painted over or covered with children's art or
other paper so that kids can't see out. WHY!? Because if there's an
alternative to the teacher speaking or the worksheet on the desk, the kids
might prefer looking out the window.
If looking out the window is more interesting than the worksheet or the
teacher, it seems logical that the teacher should make what she's saying more
interesting, or replace the worksheets with something lively and fascinating.
But no, they cover the windows.
I think some homeschooling parents cover over the TV in the same way.
Sandra
<< I could
just turn off the tv -- but that doesn't improve the kids options, that
limits them. >>
I have seen families who want unschooling to magically appear in the way they
have imagined it: The moms do whatever they want on their own, in quietude,
while the kids energetically reproduce the school's curriculum in creative
ways.
In schools, windows are often painted over or covered with children's art or
other paper so that kids can't see out. WHY!? Because if there's an
alternative to the teacher speaking or the worksheet on the desk, the kids
might prefer looking out the window.
If looking out the window is more interesting than the worksheet or the
teacher, it seems logical that the teacher should make what she's saying more
interesting, or replace the worksheets with something lively and fascinating.
But no, they cover the windows.
I think some homeschooling parents cover over the TV in the same way.
Sandra
Nancy Wooton
on 1/28/02 10:24 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:
cable -- we saw the Holy Grail of Educational TV, ANIMAL PLANET! I sat
glued to a show about how birds mark their territories with songs whose
distinctions are little more than fluctuations in notes, nearly impossible
for any human to detect. When our cable company offered high-speed
internet, with a discount if we upped our TV service to include *digital*
channels, we gained 6 Discovery channels, a bunch of movie channels,
including the Independent Film Channel, and BBC America among many others.
Heaven, I'm in Heaven...
Nancy, unabashed addict
> We have cable with seemingly unlimited channels - there's almost alwaysIt was after staying at Pam's house that my dd and I decided we HAD to get
> something good on.
cable -- we saw the Holy Grail of Educational TV, ANIMAL PLANET! I sat
glued to a show about how birds mark their territories with songs whose
distinctions are little more than fluctuations in notes, nearly impossible
for any human to detect. When our cable company offered high-speed
internet, with a discount if we upped our TV service to include *digital*
channels, we gained 6 Discovery channels, a bunch of movie channels,
including the Independent Film Channel, and BBC America among many others.
Heaven, I'm in Heaven...
Nancy, unabashed addict
Ariadna Solovyova
For some reason, Sandra, it's very important to me that you understand my
point. Maybe it's because I like your essays :-) .
You seem to be arguing with a strawman, not with me.
I say, "most TV programming is ugly". You say, "there are wonderful
shows". Do you think *most* shows are wonderful? Maybe you do. But you
will agree that for those people who think most shows are nothing special,
it doesn't make sense to own a TV. It just amazes me how many do. It's
just like subscribing to a magazine that's half crap, instead of just
getting the good articles online, or from the library. I guess many do
that too.
point. Maybe it's because I like your essays :-) .
You seem to be arguing with a strawman, not with me.
I say, "most TV programming is ugly". You say, "there are wonderful
shows". Do you think *most* shows are wonderful? Maybe you do. But you
will agree that for those people who think most shows are nothing special,
it doesn't make sense to own a TV. It just amazes me how many do. It's
just like subscribing to a magazine that's half crap, instead of just
getting the good articles online, or from the library. I guess many do
that too.
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 SandraDodd@... wrote:
...
> If looking out the window is more interesting than the worksheet or the
> teacher, it seems logical that the teacher should make what she's saying more
> interesting, or replace the worksheets with something lively and fascinating.
>
> But no, they cover the windows.
>
> I think some homeschooling parents cover over the TV in the same way.
>
I most heartily agree that if TV is important to you then you definitely
shouldn't hide it from your child.
Oh, and covering the windows is awful, wow, I didn't know they did that.
In Russian schools I knew, the teachers weren't that inventive.
Ari
> Sandra
>
>
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[email protected]
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:58:16 -0800 (PST) Ariadna Solovyova
<ari@...> writes:
all. Does *your child* think most tv programming is ugly? Does *your
child* think that it doesn't make sense to own a tv?
Dar
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<ari@...> writes:
> I say, "most TV programming is ugly". You say, "there are wonderfulspecial,
> shows". Do you think *most* shows are wonderful? Maybe you do. But you
> will agree that for those people who think most shows are nothing
> it doesn't make sense to own a TV. It just amazes me how many do.But you're missing the point - the point isn't what you think about tv it
all. Does *your child* think most tv programming is ugly? Does *your
child* think that it doesn't make sense to own a tv?
Dar
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Ariadna Solovyova
Hey Dar!
And does my child think it's reasonable to not let her smoke cigars? The
thing is, she's never tasted one, and I told her that juice through a
straw tastes much better, and she believed me. She saw an appealing image
of a crocodile with a cigar in a Russian cartoon, and was intrigued. Later
I'll tell her why we don't smoke, and why it isn't a good idea. And most
likely she'll follow my advice. Or maybe she'll try it a few times. But
then she'll still choose what's good for her if I do my job well.
So for those of us who think that TV is akin to smoking (and I did find
some such people), we do make the choice to ditch it for ourselves and for
our kids. And the rest make a different choice. Does *your* child know how
good life can be without a TV? No really, what if she would agree with me?
Not a chance, huh? :-)
Ari
And does my child think it's reasonable to not let her smoke cigars? The
thing is, she's never tasted one, and I told her that juice through a
straw tastes much better, and she believed me. She saw an appealing image
of a crocodile with a cigar in a Russian cartoon, and was intrigued. Later
I'll tell her why we don't smoke, and why it isn't a good idea. And most
likely she'll follow my advice. Or maybe she'll try it a few times. But
then she'll still choose what's good for her if I do my job well.
So for those of us who think that TV is akin to smoking (and I did find
some such people), we do make the choice to ditch it for ourselves and for
our kids. And the rest make a different choice. Does *your* child know how
good life can be without a TV? No really, what if she would agree with me?
Not a chance, huh? :-)
Ari
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 freeform@... wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:58:16 -0800 (PST) Ariadna Solovyova
> <ari@...> writes:
> > I say, "most TV programming is ugly". You say, "there are wonderful
> > shows". Do you think *most* shows are wonderful? Maybe you do. But you
> > will agree that for those people who think most shows are nothing
> special,
> > it doesn't make sense to own a TV. It just amazes me how many do.
>
> But you're missing the point - the point isn't what you think about tv it
> all. Does *your child* think most tv programming is ugly? Does *your
> child* think that it doesn't make sense to own a tv?
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
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>
>
[email protected]
I am not arguing with a strawman. I'm telling what has happened with my
children in my home. My children are now 10, 13 and 15. How old are yours?
<< For some reason, Sandra, it's very important to me that you understand my
point. >>
It shouldn't be. Either you're confident in your decisions or you're not.
If you're not, read what others here are saying more eloquently than I am.
<<
I say, "most TV programming is ugly". You say, "there are wonderful
shows". Do you think *most* shows are wonderful?>>
It makes no difference. If there are 900 ugly magazines and there are five
that are worth having, get those five. Don't condemn Smithsonian because you
don't think Lowrider or Rolling Stone should exist.
<<But you will agree that for those people who think most shows are nothing
special,
it doesn't make sense to own a TV.>>
No, I will not agree to that.
I will not agree that I'm attacking a strawman (a very specific rhetorical
charge) nor will I consent to have you say what I will agree to.
<<It just amazes me how many do. It's
just like subscribing to a magazine that's half crap, instead of just
getting the good articles online, or from the library. I guess many do
that too.>>
How woulld you get just the good articles from the library? You mean you
would read the magazine in the library but not pay for it? Fine. So you
will go to the library to have TV but not have it at home?
I prefer logic.
------
Below, you either accidently missed my point, or tried to pretend you did for
the effect. Unimpressive, either way:
shouldn't hide it from your child.
--------------------------------------
The teachers didn't cover the view to the outside because the outside was so
important to them. If a mom can only be more interesting than the TV by
banning the TV, she should just find more interesting ways to be.
Sandra
children in my home. My children are now 10, 13 and 15. How old are yours?
<< For some reason, Sandra, it's very important to me that you understand my
point. >>
It shouldn't be. Either you're confident in your decisions or you're not.
If you're not, read what others here are saying more eloquently than I am.
<<
I say, "most TV programming is ugly". You say, "there are wonderful
shows". Do you think *most* shows are wonderful?>>
It makes no difference. If there are 900 ugly magazines and there are five
that are worth having, get those five. Don't condemn Smithsonian because you
don't think Lowrider or Rolling Stone should exist.
<<But you will agree that for those people who think most shows are nothing
special,
it doesn't make sense to own a TV.>>
No, I will not agree to that.
I will not agree that I'm attacking a strawman (a very specific rhetorical
charge) nor will I consent to have you say what I will agree to.
<<It just amazes me how many do. It's
just like subscribing to a magazine that's half crap, instead of just
getting the good articles online, or from the library. I guess many do
that too.>>
How woulld you get just the good articles from the library? You mean you
would read the magazine in the library but not pay for it? Fine. So you
will go to the library to have TV but not have it at home?
I prefer logic.
------
Below, you either accidently missed my point, or tried to pretend you did for
the effect. Unimpressive, either way:
> If looking out the window is more interesting than the worksheet or themore
> teacher, it seems logical that the teacher should make what she's saying
> interesting, or replace the worksheets with something lively andfascinating.
>I most heartily agree that if TV is important to you then you definitely
> But no, they cover the windows.
>
> I think some homeschooling parents cover over the TV in the same way.
>
shouldn't hide it from your child.
--------------------------------------
The teachers didn't cover the view to the outside because the outside was so
important to them. If a mom can only be more interesting than the TV by
banning the TV, she should just find more interesting ways to be.
Sandra
[email protected]
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:07:40 -0800 (PST) Ariadna Solovyova
<ari@...> writes:
thing - you've decided what's better for you, and believe that therefore,
these things are also better for your child. That doesn't follow...
I've offered to get Cacie a cigarette to smoke. She declined, but it was
an honest offer at a time when she was interested in how it worked. She
is free to drink any alcoholic beverages around, she's tried a couple of
times and not liked them.
themselves.
just the two of us, and I wouldn't miss it much, and if I did I could go
visit someone. It truly wouldn't be a big deal to me. When we got to
Mexico for a few days or a week, or go camping, there's no tv. And no
computer, which I miss a lot (anyone want to buy me a laptop?). But I'm
not about to just get rid of the tv against her wishes so she can
experience life without it, just like I'm not going to get rid of all the
reading material in the house to experience life without that, or get rid
of all the playmobil, or all the games....
How old is your child, or children? Just wondering. The things you talk
about doing sound like they'd seem to work with a young child, but would
blow up in your face once she got a bit older. At least, that's what
I've seen. Mine is 9...
Dar
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<ari@...> writes:
> And does my child think it's reasonable to not let her smoke cigars?The
> thing is, she's never tasted one, and I told her that juice through a*To you*. Tastes better *to you*. I really think this is the crux of the
> straw tastes much better, and she believed me.
thing - you've decided what's better for you, and believe that therefore,
these things are also better for your child. That doesn't follow...
> She saw an appealing imageLater
> of a crocodile with a cigar in a Russian cartoon, and was intrigued.
> I'll tell her why we don't smoke,Why *you* don't smoke.
>and why it isn't a good idea. And mostOr what you believe is good for her.
> likely she'll follow my advice. Or maybe she'll try it a few times.
> But then she'll still choose what's good for her if I do my job well.
I've offered to get Cacie a cigarette to smoke. She declined, but it was
an honest offer at a time when she was interested in how it worked. She
is free to drink any alcoholic beverages around, she's tried a couple of
times and not liked them.
>and for
> So for those of us who think that TV is akin to smoking (and I did
> find some such people), we do make the choice to ditch it for ourselves
> our kids. And the rest make a different choice.But unschooling is about letting your kids make those choices for
themselves.
> Does *your* child know howIf she wants to try life without a tv, she's welcome to. Truly. It's
> good life can be without a TV? No really, what if she would agree
> with me? Not a chance, huh? :-)
just the two of us, and I wouldn't miss it much, and if I did I could go
visit someone. It truly wouldn't be a big deal to me. When we got to
Mexico for a few days or a week, or go camping, there's no tv. And no
computer, which I miss a lot (anyone want to buy me a laptop?). But I'm
not about to just get rid of the tv against her wishes so she can
experience life without it, just like I'm not going to get rid of all the
reading material in the house to experience life without that, or get rid
of all the playmobil, or all the games....
How old is your child, or children? Just wondering. The things you talk
about doing sound like they'd seem to work with a young child, but would
blow up in your face once she got a bit older. At least, that's what
I've seen. Mine is 9...
Dar
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/28/02 3:11:03 PM, ari@... writes:
<< And the rest make a different choice. Does *your* child know how
good life can be without a TV? >>
Holly has one (TV/VCR) in her room that she hasn't turned on for weeks. I
asked her about it. She said it was getting old and maybe we should move it
out of there. Maybe the sewing room, she said.
Your point's not going to be proven in this group, I'm afraid.
Sandra
<< And the rest make a different choice. Does *your* child know how
good life can be without a TV? >>
Holly has one (TV/VCR) in her room that she hasn't turned on for weeks. I
asked her about it. She said it was getting old and maybe we should move it
out of there. Maybe the sewing room, she said.
Your point's not going to be proven in this group, I'm afraid.
Sandra