m59z85

My DD, age 8, had religious ed. class this afternoon. DD really
enjoys the class. The teacher, who is also a friend, is a volunteer,
a school-at-home homeschooler. I told my friend when the class
started that DD is not yet reading or writing. She said that was
fine. (I should have specified here--no worksheets, no reading out
loud.) The class has been without a textbook and my friend has been
coming up with very creative and fun lessons which DD enjoys.

Today they got the textbook and my friend made up a worksheet about
it--sort of a scavenger hunt through the book. After class my DD was
in tears about not being able to do the worksheet. I talked to my
friend later and mentioned again that DD is not yet reading or
writing. This is what my friend replied:

"And how are you intervening with that?"

Me: "I'm not, I trust that she will read when she is ready and in
her own time."

Friend: (Quoting statistics and research on brain
development) "dendrite connections peak at age 8 and if the child is
not reading by then the dendrites in the literacy area of the brain
just start being sheared off."

Me: "What about children who read later, say age 10 or beyond?"

Friend: "I'm sure there are isolated cases of that happening but it
becomes much harder. You really should have her tested to see what
the problem is. It could be dyslexia, dysgraphia, sensory
integration disorder, letter tracking (?) . . .the wait and see what
happens approach is wasting precious time in which she could be
helped."

Me: (I am reeling in shock from her confrontation and feeling quite
defensive and just wanting to get away from her!) "That is
interesting but could you just not ask her to do worksheets in class?"

Friend: "Well, I have to teach at a 3rd grade level and use the
book." (This tells me that she is not willing to accommodate a not-
yet-reader. Maybe she doesn't even know how!)

Me: "Do you think I should withdraw her from the class?" (Until now
DD has loved the class and really enjoys the service projects--last
week they made blankets for the children in the homeless shelter.)

Friend: (Who I am not so sure is really a friend!) "No, no!"

We left it at that. This is the first and only time my DD has ever
been made to feel bad about not reading. I feel terrible about it.
I thought my friend was capable of dealing with this but she is
unwilling to help my child.

This same friend has had her child extensively tested for Sensory
Integration Disorder, learning disorders, etc.

I felt defensive as it seemed to me she demanded of me to know what I
was doing to help my child read. I wanted to ask her if she has read
any books by Frank Smith, especially "Reading Without Nonsense."

I guess I am asking for advice. I am feeling unsure of myself. This
same DD is highly intelligent, curious about everything, is currently
in to Archie comics, Nancy Drew graphic novels, computer games,
gymnatics and sewing by hand. Together we are reading our way
through several Judy Blume books, we joined a nature class in which
we are learning about trees at a local park, and we are making
Halloween costumes. I also have a math course which she picks up
from time to time (it has a DVD). DD will watch the DVD and work her
way through a portion of the book. This same friend might be
horrified to know the math course is kindergarten level and DD's goal
is to learn to skip count and then to tell time--in that order.

DD also understands concepts quite well and frequently wants to
discuss why the price of gas is higher at this one station we pass.
(She knows because I comment on it.) She is very interested in the
economics of supply and demand and frequently brings it up. My
husband told me tonight he was trying to explain capitalism to her
this evening when they passed the station again.

My friend might also be horrified to know that my DD spent most of
last year drawing books of stories. She would draw them and bring
them to me to add the words. I would write while she dictated. We
literally have boxes and boxes of these books.

Anyone else with a not-yet-reading 8 year old? Or anyone who has
been pressured to have their child tested? My heart still tells me
we are on the right path with DD.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 23, 2007, at 10:20 PM, m59z85 wrote:

> Anyone else with a not-yet-reading 8 year old? Or anyone who has
> been pressured to have their child tested? My heart still tells me
> we are on the right path with DD

Lots of unschooled kids are not reading at 8.

If your friend thinks your daughter is disabled in some way, then how
much MORE cruel it is of her to embarrass her.

If your daughter really wants to go, then I would tell your friend to
be really really careful not to embarrass your daughter and point out
that asking her to read or do worksheets is like asking someone
without hands to write. No matter the reason, the reality is that she
"can't" do it yet and she needs the teacher to accommodate that.

You don't have to persuade your friend to see it your way. You need
her to treat your daughter nicely, no matter what she thinks about
her not yet reading.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

>
> Anyone else with a not-yet-reading 8 year old?
>




My youngest son started reading at 3 1/2 and was reading at a nearly adult
level by 5.

If he hadn't been born at home, and if he didn't look just like his
brothers, I would have assumed he'd been swapped at birth. I therefore have
to assume he is a mutant!

The other three each took less than 6 months to go from starting to read, to
reading at adult level. Their starting ages? 8 1/2, 9 1/2, and 12 1/2. They
all read just fine now. (Aged 26, 24, 20, 17)

The earliest reader is the best speller. The second earliest reader is the
second best speller. The latest reader is a close third. The other is pretty
dilexic - hmmmm maybe he gets his problems from his mother!! dislexic, I
mean dyslexic. But hey, that's what dictionaries and spell checkers are for,
yeah?

Your teacher friend had her chance to express her opinion when you asked her
about the class and told her your daughter could not read or write. She had
her chance then to say if the class would not be suitable for your daughter.
To accept your daughter into the class and then humiliate her like this is
is not only wrong, it is cruel but doesn't fit at all with what I would
expect from 'religious ed.'

Cally


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

m59z85

> much MORE cruel it is of her to embarrass her.


Thank you, Pam, for your post.

I believe it was truly cruel of my friend to embarrass my daughter.
She seemed to think that handing her the worksheet and book and then
telling her to do it at home was enough. She then left her sitting
there with nothing to do so, of course, my daughter felt compelled to
do what the other children were doing.

I am going to insist that the teacher be especially kind to my
daughter. I teach a class of younger children at the same time.
I'll tell her if she wants to do worksheets to send my daughter to
me! There are so many things she could have done rather than
embarrass her. I believe she did it to highlight a reading "deficit"
and to force me to get help for DD's "problems".

I was at the St. Louis conference a few years ago and heard you
speak. I really enjoyed your talk and I am so grateful for your
comments.

m59z85

Their starting ages? 8 1/2, 9 1/2, and 12 1/2. They
> all read just fine now. (Aged 26, 24, 20, 17)
>
> > is not only wrong, it is cruel but doesn't fit at all with what I
would
> expect from 'religious ed.'


Thank you for your reply, Cally.

This is such a help to know the ages your children started to read
and that they read fine now. It makes me think of something on
Sandra Dodd's website about how there are so many other ways to learn
besides reading. This is our 4th year of unschooling and I guess we
just naturally do that now so that when I am confronted with someone
who doesn't know how I am amazed.

I agree it was not expected from religious ed. How can the teacher
teach my DD to be compassionate to others and yet not offer the same
to her? It doesn't make sense.

I am so grateful for this list and the supportive people who read and
post! I don't post very often and I haven't even been reading it much
lately--our learning has been so seemless and smooth. I've learned my
lesson and will stick closer to the list!

It's so good to know that your childrens' dendrites weren't all
sheared off making them unable to ever learn to read!


Linda Maggioncalda

Sandra Dodd

-=-The earliest reader is the best speller. The second earliest
reader is the
second best speller. The latest reader is a close third.-=-

In our family it's the other way around. Kirby read earliest but
doesn't spell as well as Holly, who became proficient at reading at a
more advanced age. <g>

http://sandradodd.com/reading

There are trade-offs.

There are schoolkids who avoid Sunday School and scouts because they
can't read, but people don't talk about that much.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-This same friend has had her child extensively tested for Sensory
Integration Disorder, learning disorders, etc.-=-


It's a plague, parents competing with each other to find out "what's
wrong" with their absolutely normal children.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

m59z85

> It's a plague, parents competing with each other to find out "what's
> wrong" with their absolutely normal children.


___________________

I agree. I was talking with my husband about this this morning and
wondering if it is something like Munchausen's Syndrome--the parent
gets attention because the kid has so many problems. My friend sees my
daughter as riddled with "issues" and I see her as perfectly normal.

Linda from VA

Sandra Dodd

-=-I agree. I was talking with my husband about this this morning and
wondering if it is something like Munchausen's Syndrome--the parent
gets attention because the kid has so many problems. My friend sees my
daughter as riddled with "issues" and I see her as perfectly normal.-=-

I think so, but with a whole 'nother overlay, which is that the
parents are such martyrs and must be *so much more informed* to deal
with such a difficulty. And if and when the child is not quite
perfect, it's not at ALL the parents' fault.

Unfortunately, the side effect is that the child is assuredly
imperfect--officially afflicted. Something is *wrong* with that
child. Something is *abnormal* with that child, and the "child" will
have that feeling for 60 years.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Janet Ford

My daughter really didn't start reading until she was close to 10 and we never made it an issue. Now she's 13, is anal retentive about grammar, punctuation, and spelling, is online constantly playing RPGs, and reads a lot of fantasy novels (thick books with small print). It crossed my mind once or twice that maybe there was an issue (dyslexia or something) because she's not a linear/logical thinker (like the rest of her geeky family). But I got over it. She was never tested.

My son had a few bouts about feeling bad that he couldn't read at age 7, but somewhere after his 8th birthday it seemed to click. He had just been lamenting how he couldn't read, and I'd been reading Hoot to him, when he picked it up and started reading all of the captions under the pictures (we had the version that came out after the movie, so there were pics from the movie in the book) and read them, including a lot of big, long words. I think he surprised himself, and his reading took off from there.

I'm sure they would have been made to feel stupid and hate reading if they were in school. But they love it. :) My advice would be to wait. :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], "m59z85" <maggioncalda@...>
wrote:

> "And how are you intervening with that?"
>
> Me: "I'm not, I trust that she will read when she is ready and in
> her own time."


You're a lot nicer than I am...I would've said, "Bite me!" and left it
at that. : P Couldn't she have made a picture scavenger hunt and let
the kids choose which one they wanted? She really doesn't sound like a
friend to me.
: (
Ria

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> There are schoolkids who avoid Sunday School and scouts because they
> can't read, but people don't talk about that much.


My brother was like that. He avoided any place he might be expected to
read aloud until he was about 14.
Ria

Silvia Barrett

My now almost-11 yr old DD didn�t start reading books till just before her
9th birthday. And she�s reading fine now. I don�t know what �grade level�
but she happily reads plenty of books. Before this, she would read a word or
sentence at a time, but really would not attempt to read more than that. HTH



And my just-turned-8 DS is not reading�he reads less than DD did at the same
age.



Silvia

Emily (almost 11), and Thomas (8)

my personal blog: Po Moyemu--In My Opinion: HYPERLINK
"blocked::http://pomoyemu.blogspot.com/"http://pomoyemu.blogspot.com/

and our ongoing house remodeling: Casa in Costruzione: HYPERLINK
"blocked::http://casaincostruzione.blogspot.com/"http://casaincostruzione.bl
ogspot.com/



From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of m59z85
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Teacher/Friend's comments about DD (8) not yet
reading or writing.

Anyone else with a not-yet-reading 8 year old? Or anyone who has
been pressured to have their child tested? My heart still tells me
we are on the right path with DD.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John Rizzo

"It's a plague, parents competing with each other to find
out "what's
wrong" with their absolutely normal children."

I have some guilt over this because we did have our 3-year old tested
for Sensory Integration Disorder. This was of course confirmed and
we had a few therapy sessions. The whole testing and therapy really
set us back because DD knew what was going on and acted out on the
negative feelings she was having about being labeled and "treated"

Turns out we were doing most of the therapy exercises ourselves at
home and were in tune to DD needs. She has grown out of many of the
sensory issues, and the others continue to get better.

Now a babysitter who is an Occupational Therapist in training wants
us to get DD tested for some form of autism (she thinks Aspergers).
There is no way we will do this again.

First of all, all DD's impulisive behaviors are evening out with age,
so there is no need for therapy. Secondly, Aspergers seems to be a
catch all diagnosis for kids who don't follow the crowd and don't fit
into schooly behavior patterns. It seems entirely made up to me.
Third, there is nothing we would do differently because treatment is
behavior modification using rewards and punishments (we would
absolutely not do this).

All that said, I did have a brief moment of thinking that a diagnosis
would be a handy excuse to shut people up when they bring up concerns
about DD. I also had the fleeting thought that it would open up some
special education money that we could use in home because of the
recent Supreme Court case. Then I thought, I like my daughter how
she is without any negative labels.

Sandra Dodd

-=Turns out we were doing most of the therapy exercises ourselves at
home and were in tune to DD needs. She has grown out of many of the
sensory issues, and the others continue to get better.-=-

It seems to me that with unschooling, and giving children options and
choices and really paying attention to what they want to do (or see,
hear, touch, eat, smell, explore), each child can be comfortable and
learn.

In the absence of school, lots of problems fail to exist.

-=-First of all, all DD's impulisive behaviors are evening out with age,
so there is no need for therapy. Secondly, Aspergers seems to be a
catch all diagnosis for kids who don't follow the crowd and don't fit
into schooly behavior patterns. It seems entirely made up to me. -=-

Maybe it's being broadened or used too generally, but from the
Aspergers kids I've known, unschooling helps! More parental
attention to interactions with other people and tips for getting
along (which ALL kids should get) can help the situation.

Of the three Asperger kids I know best, two local who were in our
unschooling playgroup some years back, they just took longer to
develop interpersonal relationships. They might not be as good at
it in their late teens (they're all boys) as their sisters or as
other boys their age are, but they're all much better.

They might need to work at jobs that don't involve too much human
interaction. One of the kids, who started off just standing facing a
tree each time, went to work when he was 18 stocking shelves and
storage in a store.

I need to not work in a bank. I'm not quick with numbers, and I get
stressed. It's not a life-ruining "disorder" for math not to be my
primary mode of thought.

Some people see the world as a mass of interpersonal relationships.
Holly and Marty can see it that way. Some people don't have that.

It has helped me lots to consider the various intelligences
identified by Howard Gardner,
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences

I think maybe Asperger's is the name for someone being low on the
interpersonal scale.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John Rizzo

"Of the three Asperger kids I know best, two local who were in our
unschooling playgroup some years back, they just took longer to
develop interpersonal relationships. They might not be as good at
it in their late teens (they're all boys) as their sisters or as
other boys their age are, but they're all much better."

This is what bothers me about the desire to label her with this
diagnosis. My daughter is fine with intrapersonal skills, she has
always had empathy, she is sensitive to other's moods, she makes
friends easily (we usually end up playing with complete strangers in
the park because she goes and introduces herself).

However, because she has problems with impulse control, everyone
wants to label her. She can make other kids annoyed at her because
of this, but it usually does not hinder relationships.

So to me it seems like the machine wants to put some label on every 3-
year old who won't sit still at circle time or play some stupid game
she is not interested in. Asperger's is so broad a label that it
could be placed on almost anyone.

-John Rizzo

Lisa

--- In [email protected], "John Rizzo" <jmcrizzo@...>
wrote:
>
> Turns out we were doing most of the therapy exercises ourselves at
> home and were in tune to DD needs. She has grown out of many of the
> sensory issues, and the others continue to get better.
>
*****
The unschooled kids i know that might have been labeled in their early
childhood (or even later) with a dx but were not, are all really
incredible terrific and *confident* people because their
parents/family/friends/community respond to them as the unique human
beings that they are.

As unschooling parents we are in tune with the needs of our kids,
whatever they may be, and we respond respectfully in their best
interest allowing them to unfold in their own way.

****
> All that said, I did have a brief moment of thinking that a diagnosis
> would be a handy excuse to shut people up when they bring up concerns
> about DD.

*** Our local homeschooling community has changed in recent years in
that there are many (too many) mandatory drop off programs now for the
younger kids where once every activity was a family situation with
multi-aged sibs and parental inclusion (of course)!!! So we are very
selective in what we do because not being able to do it together is not
what we want. So i met a mom recently who told me they did let her
attend with her child in a Bronx Zoo program (known as strictly kids
only no parents allowed) because she told the staff child had learning
disability or some such special need and needed her in attendance - if
they required proof she'd be happy to get a note from her pediatrician.

Last year, when my dd's ballet teacher came to me to talk about the
*problem* with dd leaving class frequently, i told teacher dd (then 8yo)
had a small bladder and that was why she would frequently leave the
class. That was an acceptable answer. The truth was she sometimes
just wanted to come and give me a hug (i was always sitting on the
other side of the big glass window during her class). I thought it was
wonderful that she wanted to just come and give me hug but that answer
was not what the teacher was looking for - she was expecting me to cut
off my dd's freedom to come and go in the room. The other truth was
that if she did need to go to the bathroom she still wanted me with
her - but of course that explanation would never have been acceptable
for an 8yo <lol>

Just the other day, this years ballet teacher came to me to talk to me
about my dd's "chatter." She explained that when a question was asked
and the kids raised their hand to answer and that dd did that part just
fine (guess what folks - somewhere along the line she learned to raise
her hand and not just call out an answer in a teacher/class
situation). The problem dance teacher wanted to discuss was that dd
didn't answer the question but responded with something that in
teachers mind was unrelated to the question, i responded by saying with
a joyful (and proud) smile, "yes she's always thinking several steps
ahead." Teacher did not expect this answer. So she turned to dd and
said directly to her, "when i ask a question i need you to answer what
i ask. If you have a story to share save it for the end of class. I
will leave time for sharing at the end of class." Dd kind of shrugged
and then when teacher left looked at me with a baffled expression not
quite understanding what the teacher was referring to. My response, "i
love the way your mind works and all the connections you make." She
swelled up with pride and we both left the studio feeling really
wonderful about who we both are in the world!!! Talk about turning
what was intended as a *corrective instruction* into a reaffirming
situation.

Lisa Heyman