[email protected]
This is a question I decided to send to this list in addition to another
list:
OK, Here is my question (Please be gentle with your answers! LOL)
Once the above (the above was a statement regarding kids that through
tantrums to get what they want in stores and the writer's opinion that it is
due to the parent not being consistant in their responses thereby increasing
the child's tantrum - totally paraphrased) has become a pattern - how does
one change it? How does one set the limit yet still maintain respect and teh
child autonomy? I tend to have good days (respecting their wishes, everyone
cooperating, watching the hunger/anger/lonely/tired thing, modeling behavior
and then all of a sudden I realize that there has been some yelling,
disrespect etc and I'm not sure what got us there.
Also, the eating issue (I really wish S was here to answer this one) My two
year old is down to eating nothing until he gets junk. Would removing it
from the house for a period of time help? Might it give him the space to try
other healthier foods and realize he likes them? I don't want to be a food
controller yet I am starting to become concerned over his eating habits.
Yesterday he ate a bowl of rice crispies with milk and then nothing else! He
is still nursing so that eases my fear somewhat. I have also thought about
not arguing and letting him nurse as much as desired but I am at that
nursing stage where it is starting to get a little irritating physically as
my cycle ebbs and flows (pun intended LOL)
Elissa
list:
OK, Here is my question (Please be gentle with your answers! LOL)
Once the above (the above was a statement regarding kids that through
tantrums to get what they want in stores and the writer's opinion that it is
due to the parent not being consistant in their responses thereby increasing
the child's tantrum - totally paraphrased) has become a pattern - how does
one change it? How does one set the limit yet still maintain respect and teh
child autonomy? I tend to have good days (respecting their wishes, everyone
cooperating, watching the hunger/anger/lonely/tired thing, modeling behavior
and then all of a sudden I realize that there has been some yelling,
disrespect etc and I'm not sure what got us there.
Also, the eating issue (I really wish S was here to answer this one) My two
year old is down to eating nothing until he gets junk. Would removing it
from the house for a period of time help? Might it give him the space to try
other healthier foods and realize he likes them? I don't want to be a food
controller yet I am starting to become concerned over his eating habits.
Yesterday he ate a bowl of rice crispies with milk and then nothing else! He
is still nursing so that eases my fear somewhat. I have also thought about
not arguing and letting him nurse as much as desired but I am at that
nursing stage where it is starting to get a little irritating physically as
my cycle ebbs and flows (pun intended LOL)
Elissa
Karen Matlock
Good
*days*? I have good *mornings* that degenerate into yelling, disrespect, and
(the recent favorite) the Disgruntled Glare. Yesterday was such a day. Had I
been dh, ds10 would have been grounded for at least a week. Since I try not to
resort to meaningless retribution, I got him out of the situation, let him stew
awhile, and by evening, I was walking by the couch where he was sitting and he
said quietly, "I love you," whereupon I gave him a big ol' hug, the kind that
ds10s hate (in public, anyway.) Now I know yours is two and mine is ten, but the
principle is the same. I try to stop and feel where they are, when I haven't and
I've been an ogre, I apologize. When mine was that age and I blew up, I'd put
myself in time out and tell him so. The novelty was enough to stop the behavior
and he wanted to comfort me. Setting limits is just the household rules, which
apply to everyone: respect others' property, use appropriate language, keep up
with your responsibilities. I have to show him that I do that myself, as well as
showing what I do when I screw up. Please don't be a perfect mother; I had one
(still do) and I'm still getting over it.
As far
as the junk food; toddlers need surprisingly little food volume and variety
isn't a concern yet. As long as he's not underweight (if he is, this is a
medical issue instead) then I would offer a selection of foods and stand back.
I've never harped on the issue, and I'm fortunate that it's not (much of)
an problem here. You can find "junky" looking foods that aren't too bad,
health-nut-wise, just check out the cereal and cookie aisle at your neighborhood
health food store. If all he wanted was rice krispies and milk three times a
day, that's not so bad either, just throw in a multivitamin now and then. And is
he old enough to have his own lower shelf in the kitchen that you can stock with
whatever he'll eat? (Plus a few of your own selections, of course!) It's all
about control at that age; take yourself out of the loop as much as possible.
Karen
cautiously unlurking here
-----Original Message-----
From: ElissaJC@... [mailto:ElissaJC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] (unknown)
From: ElissaJC@... [mailto:ElissaJC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] (unknown)
This is a question I decided to send to this list in addition to another
list:
OK, Here is my question (Please be gentle with your answers! LOL)
Once the above (the above was a statement regarding kids that through
tantrums to get what they want in stores and the writer's opinion that it is
due to the parent not being consistant in their responses thereby increasing
the child's tantrum - totally paraphrased) has become a pattern - how does
one change it? How does one set the limit yet still maintain respect and teh
child autonomy? I tend to have good days (respecting their wishes, everyone
cooperating, watching the hunger/anger/lonely/tired thing, modeling behavior
and then all of a sudden I realize that there has been some yelling,
disrespect etc and I'm not sure what got us there.
Also, the eating issue (I really wish S was here to answer this one) My two
year old is down to eating nothing until he gets junk. Would removing it
from the house for a period of time help? Might it give him the space to try
other healthier foods and realize he likes them? I don't want to be a food
controller yet I am starting to become concerned over his eating habits.
Yesterday he ate a bowl of rice crispies with milk and then nothing else! He
is still nursing so that eases my fear somewhat. I have also thought about
not arguing and letting him nurse as much as desired but I am at that
nursing stage where it is starting to get a little irritating physically as
my cycle ebbs and flows (pun intended LOL)
Elissa
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
. And is he old enough to have his own lower shelf in the kitchen that you
can stock with whatever he'll eat? (Plus a few of your own selections, of
course!) It's all about control at that age; take yourself out of the loop
as much as possible.
I think I will do this. He really likes tht he can now open the pantry door
and take out food. I think I will use the bottom shelf for snacks.
Great idea!
Elissa
can stock with whatever he'll eat? (Plus a few of your own selections, of
course!) It's all about control at that age; take yourself out of the loop
as much as possible.
I think I will do this. He really likes tht he can now open the pantry door
and take out food. I think I will use the bottom shelf for snacks.
Great idea!
Elissa
[email protected]
Might it give him the space to try
other healthier foods and realize he likes them? I don't want to be a food
controller yet I am starting to become concerned over his eating habits.
Have you tried the happy-face method? (Pancakes in artsy shapes, with Mickey-Mouse ears; open-faced cheese sandwiches with design with different colored cheeses?)
Have you gone to the store hunting for JUST special, new foods he might like?
-=-Yesterday he ate a bowl of rice crispies with milk and then nothing else! He
is still nursing so that eases my fear somewhat. -=-
We used to make (still do, but the concept started then, after a zoo trip) "monkey platters" for the kids. Maraschino (sp?) cherries, little pieces of pineapple (there is some now shaped like moons and stars), tiny crackers, like Goldfish or I forget the little square orange ones), little squares of cheese (smaller than normal), grapes... Give them toothpicks to eat the stuff with, if they're old enough to be safe with toothpicks.
-=-statement regarding kids that through
tantrums to get what they want in stores . . . how does
one change it? How does one set the limit yet still maintain respect and teh
child autonomy?-=-
In-store strategies: Interact with the child more instead of leaving the store to entertain him. Carry him so his head is near yours, or have him in the cart facing you, and keep up a conversation about things other than the store, or talk to him about what you're buying and why if it's the grocery store.
Go to a checkout with boring stuff on the sides if they have one--lots of stores do, just because kids are unlikely to beg for emery boards and razors and lighters and stuff.
Let him hold something interesting that you're buying, something unbreakable but colorful and fun.
Praise him for being helpful. Tell him it's fun to go with him so you have someone to talk to. Make him feel a help instead of a hindrance.
If he's older and in the habit of begging and crying, talk about it being stressful, and that you don't WANT to wish to be alone, but that the crying makes it no fun for you to go to the store. He'll forget, and he'll lapse, but you can say "I don't want you to come if you're going to cry." Then don't consider it a binding contract if he's little and fails to maintain himself.
Sometimes get him cool things when he doesn't ask for them, and tell him it's because he was so good in the store. Or just say you thought he might really like that, and surprise him.
If my husband shamed me when we went shopping and complained about taking me when we got home, I'd want loot to show for my mental anguish. Some families are not very nice to their kids in/around/after stores, in my experience.
So not knowing the particulars of the situation and not being around for the prior discussion where it first took place, there are some ideas of mine.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/27/2001 8:38:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:
Let him hold something interesting that you're buying, something unbreakable but colorful and fun.
Ah - memories.....
As soon as we got to the grocery store we'd go to the bags of dry beans and split peas and stuff like that. They'd pick out a "baby." They cuddle and play with their bag of beans all through the store - talk to it and sing to it and so on. I don't know how this whole thing started - I think it was by accident with my oldest and she passed it down to the younger kids.
--pam
Joylyn
What does your mother think about all of
this?
I know my parents indicated that they felt
their last visit here was harder because they
felt torn between the two sets of grandkids.
I tried very hard not to make them feel like
they had to balance their time perfectly, and
that we all knew that things would balance
out over time (years). But when we suggested
that I save my vacation to go to New Mexico
next Christmas, and spend time there, (and
woudl that be ok, to have christmas at their
house), they were very happy. They said it
was easier to not have to deal with trying to
balance the time. So that is our plan. I
think having vacations where each set of
grandkids gets the grandparents/mother/father
to him/her/themselves is a good idea. My
parents even try to spend time alone with
each grandchild, ie, Lexie goes with them for
a special time and then a few days later,
they take Janene for special one on one time,
doing something that child wants to do. I
think it would be hard to be a grandparent
and make sure the time is balanced.
Joylyn
joanna514 wrote:
this?
I know my parents indicated that they felt
their last visit here was harder because they
felt torn between the two sets of grandkids.
I tried very hard not to make them feel like
they had to balance their time perfectly, and
that we all knew that things would balance
out over time (years). But when we suggested
that I save my vacation to go to New Mexico
next Christmas, and spend time there, (and
woudl that be ok, to have christmas at their
house), they were very happy. They said it
was easier to not have to deal with trying to
balance the time. So that is our plan. I
think having vacations where each set of
grandkids gets the grandparents/mother/father
to him/her/themselves is a good idea. My
parents even try to spend time alone with
each grandchild, ie, Lexie goes with them for
a special time and then a few days later,
they take Janene for special one on one time,
doing something that child wants to do. I
think it would be hard to be a grandparent
and make sure the time is balanced.
Joylyn
joanna514 wrote:
> I'm wondering if I took the right approach[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> on an issue with my SIL
> and niece, so I thought I'd throw it out to
> you all, and get opinions.
> My niece goes to PS and my SIL teaches 4th
> grade. My SIL and I
> started out with the same parenting beliefs
> (fam bed, BF...) in fact,
> she influenced me a lot. Ordered me
> Mothering, told me about LLL.
> Anyway, over the years, we have gone in
> different directions, but
> have remained good friends, though our busy
> separate lives, keep us
> from seeing each other very much.
> Their family dynamics are pretty different
> from ours. My niece is in
> 7th grade and is going through all that
> stuff(crap) that goes on
> socially for kids in school. She has been
> dealing with lots of
> school/social stuff for years, but they
> think it's all normal, and
> necessary for a healthy
> upbringing..yada,yada... My niece just
> made
> the honor role. She excels academically.
> I have a good relationship with my niece.
> I like her a lot, and we
> get along well. We talk a lot, and joke
> around a lot. She comes
> over just to hang out and play with my
> little ones. But we've had
> one issue that keeps coming between us. My
> mother! My mom and I
> have gotten really close over the past 5
> years or so. She stopped
> working, I started homeschooling and we
> have been able to get
> together quite a bit because of this. My
> mom lives in FL(I live in
> MD), so I visit every winter, sometimes
> twice(this year, it looks
> like 3 times. She comes up and spends the
> summer in our resort town
> in her own apt. and we spend most days at
> the beach with her. My
> children adore her, and so do I really. My
> niece has a lot of
> problems with all the time we get to spend
> with her, and she doesn't.
> She has made it clear over the years that
> we have infringed on her
> private Grandmom time. We'll come to the
> beach one day, and she'll
> roll her eyes at the fact that we are
> there. She complains loudly
> about the fact that we always get to go to
> FL and visit. My mom
> tries to make special times with just her,
> but has come to feel that
> my niece can be a little obnoxious about
> the way she expresses her
> rights to have her to herself, orto have
> equal time. So every time
> my kids get to see her, my mother is
> suppose to make sure my niece
> gets as many times spent with her too.
> I can understand this, coming from the mind
> of a 12 year old, but my
> SIL seems to encourage this behavior. She
> makes comments to me about
> my nieces feelings, and how much time we
> get to spend with my mom.
> She seems to be implying I should purposely
> spend less time with my
> mom to make it fair for her daughter.
> My first thoughts to these incedents are,
> "tough!". We chose to have
> a free lifestyle, my mother encourages us
> to come, and invites us to
> do things, and loves being with my kids,
> and has always made that
> clear, why should I change anything!?
> Boy this is getting long.
> Well the latest is, my mom suggested we
> come for Easter this year.
> My 11yo dd said she wanted to have Easter
> at our house, so we said we
> would come a different time. Then we found
> out my dh was going to be
> away for Easter, and my dd siad that going
> to FL would be better than
> being here without dad. My mother was here
> for a funeral, and I had
> taken my dd and my niece to the funeral 1
> 1/2 hrs away and met my
> mother there. The girls drove back with
> her, and my niece made plans
> to come to FL over Easter for her spring
> break. She wanted my dd to
> come too, but my dd didn't want to. So a
> few days after this, we
> deide that going for Easter would be fun,
> and I didn't realize my
> niece was planning on going(niether did my
> mother, because they had
> had the one conversation, and she hadn't
> heard from her or my SIL
> again about it. So when I called to say,
> that we changed our minds
> and would be coming, she was very happy.
> Then last night my SIL
> called and when I told her we were going
> for Easter, she told my
> niece, and my niece stormed off into her
> room, apparently devistated
> by the fact that we all would bbe there
> too, and that would RUIN her
> time.
> My SIL was telling me all of this, and I
> didn't know what to say. I
> was kind of ticked and thought she was
> being rude to imply that maybe
> we should change our plans now. I have 4
> kids and we had already
> discussed that we would be going for
> Easter. My 11yo was infuriated
> that my niece would act like this(once
> again) and she was saying that
> if we changed our plans for someone who was
> being rude and selfish,
> that SHE would have a fit to. Well, she
> did. We spent the entire
> evening discussing it, and I decided I
> would have no fun being there,
> knowing my niece wouldn't want us there.
> My niece called and talked
> to my dd, and said she wasn't going to go
> at Easter and would pick
> another time to go (my dd thought she was
> being a big baby, but I
> thought she actually made a good decision,
> probably with the help of
> her mother)I decided that since we are the
> ones that have the
> freedom, that we could choose another time
> to go, since it was so
> important to her, to not have all of us
> there. My dd reluctantly
> agreed, with the promise of us getting to
> go twice(once when my
> parents wouldn't be there and we would
> house sit, then again, after
> Easter. My niece immediately felt bad,
> that we changed our plans for
> her. I think my SIL did too. She told me
> that my niece said "now I
> don't want to go at all! and started to
> cry.
> They called this morning with new plans and
> we are still working out
> the details. Though we're still not going
> for Easter.
> I was a little hurt by my niece, and angry
> at my SIL handling of her
> daughters attitude about it all, but I bit
> the bullet and put on a
> happy face and said it was all fine. And
> really it mostly is. I
> feel better. The behavoir and attitude is
> theirs to deal with now,
> and it will all work out fine.
> I just have a nagging feeling, I have just
> justified my nieces
> behavior, and I still feel hurt at the fact
> that she can so easily
> let us know how much she doesn't want us
> around at times.
> I can see how having 4 kids around ages 2
> to 11 can very much change
> the dynamics of any environment, but I
> still think it's rude to
> express those feelings.
> Anyway, it's pretty much over now, and I am
> doing my best to not have
> any hard feelings about it all. They are
> still very important to me,
> and I guess that is why it hurts a little.
> It always makes me feel better to type it
> all out. I usually end up
> deleting what I write, because I figure out
> my feelings by the end,
> but I'm still going to send this one.
> Joanna
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
joanna514
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Joylyn <joylyn@g...> wrote:
with my mom while she is up here in the summer. It's not the same
relationship with my SIL in law and my mom, as with me, so that makes
a big difference. They get along great(mom and SIL), but my mom and
I are way closer. My mom does the one-on-one time too with the
grandkids. Or takes just the girl, or just the boy cousins. It's
just that my family has way more time to spend with her, as a family,
and even my kids have a lot more opportunities to be with her,
because of unschooling, and we both hate feeling like we have to hold
back on the opportunities because of my nieces feelings, but there it
is. Should we be insensative to a 12 yo?
My SIL and niece seem to be big on the equal time factor. Which
makes it difficult. None of my other family seems to care. I have
5 brothers and a sister all with kids. They seem to accept that we
have the opportunity to travel and visit, so we do. No big deal.
But we are spread across the country. I live in the same town as
this brother.
Like I said in the first post. We are close with them, and get along
great. It's just this one issue.
Joanna
> What does your mother think about all ofMy brothers family doesn't make as much of an effort to spend time
> this?
>
> I know my parents indicated that they felt
> their last visit here was harder because they
> felt torn between the two sets of grandkids.
> I tried very hard not to make them feel like
> they had to balance their time perfectly, and
> that we all knew that things would balance
> out over time (years). But when we suggested
> that I save my vacation to go to New Mexico
> next Christmas, and spend time there, (and
> woudl that be ok, to have christmas at their
> house), they were very happy. They said it
> was easier to not have to deal with trying to
> balance the time. So that is our plan. I
> think having vacations where each set of
> grandkids gets the grandparents/mother/father
> to him/her/themselves is a good idea. My
> parents even try to spend time alone with
> each grandchild, ie, Lexie goes with them for
> a special time and then a few days later,
> they take Janene for special one on one time,
> doing something that child wants to do. I
> think it would be hard to be a grandparent
> and make sure the time is balanced.
>
> Joylyn
>
with my mom while she is up here in the summer. It's not the same
relationship with my SIL in law and my mom, as with me, so that makes
a big difference. They get along great(mom and SIL), but my mom and
I are way closer. My mom does the one-on-one time too with the
grandkids. Or takes just the girl, or just the boy cousins. It's
just that my family has way more time to spend with her, as a family,
and even my kids have a lot more opportunities to be with her,
because of unschooling, and we both hate feeling like we have to hold
back on the opportunities because of my nieces feelings, but there it
is. Should we be insensative to a 12 yo?
My SIL and niece seem to be big on the equal time factor. Which
makes it difficult. None of my other family seems to care. I have
5 brothers and a sister all with kids. They seem to accept that we
have the opportunity to travel and visit, so we do. No big deal.
But we are spread across the country. I live in the same town as
this brother.
Like I said in the first post. We are close with them, and get along
great. It's just this one issue.
Joanna
Joylyn
Maybe if you sat down with the neice and your mom and had a good heart
to heart you could fnd a solution that woudl meet everyone's needs?
Joylyn
joanna514 wrote:
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to heart you could fnd a solution that woudl meet everyone's needs?
Joylyn
joanna514 wrote:
> --- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Joylyn <joylyn@g...> wrote:--
> > What does your mother think about all of
> > this?
> >
> > I know my parents indicated that they felt
> > their last visit here was harder because they
> > felt torn between the two sets of grandkids.
> > I tried very hard not to make them feel like
> > they had to balance their time perfectly, and
> > that we all knew that things would balance
> > out over time (years). But when we suggested
> > that I save my vacation to go to New Mexico
> > next Christmas, and spend time there, (and
> > woudl that be ok, to have christmas at their
> > house), they were very happy. They said it
> > was easier to not have to deal with trying to
> > balance the time. So that is our plan. I
> > think having vacations where each set of
> > grandkids gets the grandparents/mother/father
> > to him/her/themselves is a good idea. My
> > parents even try to spend time alone with
> > each grandchild, ie, Lexie goes with them for
> > a special time and then a few days later,
> > they take Janene for special one on one time,
> > doing something that child wants to do. I
> > think it would be hard to be a grandparent
> > and make sure the time is balanced.
> >
> > Joylyn
> >
>
> My brothers family doesn't make as much of an effort to spend time
> with my mom while she is up here in the summer. It's not the same
> relationship with my SIL in law and my mom, as with me, so that makes
> a big difference. They get along great(mom and SIL), but my mom and
> I are way closer. My mom does the one-on-one time too with the
> grandkids. Or takes just the girl, or just the boy cousins. It's
> just that my family has way more time to spend with her, as a family,
> and even my kids have a lot more opportunities to be with her,
> because of unschooling, and we both hate feeling like we have to hold
> back on the opportunities because of my nieces feelings, but there it
> is. Should we be insensative to a 12 yo?
> My SIL and niece seem to be big on the equal time factor. Which
> makes it difficult. None of my other family seems to care. I have
> 5 brothers and a sister all with kids. They seem to accept that we
> have the opportunity to travel and visit, so we do. No big deal.
> But we are spread across the country. I live in the same town as
> this brother.
> Like I said in the first post. We are close with them, and get along
> great. It's just this one issue.
> Joanna
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin
Joanna,
My heart goes out to you and your family. I want to thank you for posting this and reminding me how much each day counts, and how lucky our children are to be able to fully experience life.
Warmly,
Robin Y
Every great movement must experience three stages:
ridicule, discussion, adoption.
-John Stuart Mill
My heart goes out to you and your family. I want to thank you for posting this and reminding me how much each day counts, and how lucky our children are to be able to fully experience life.
Warmly,
Robin Y
Every great movement must experience three stages:
ridicule, discussion, adoption.
-John Stuart Mill
----- Original Message -----
From: joanna514 <Wilkinson6@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:58 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] (unknown)
Hi all
I haven't posted here for quite a long time.
I don't really know why I'm posting now. I think I want to try to
get back to some kind of normal here, and am hoping a little
discussion might help. My son Sam fell through the ice at a local
park while there with a friend and his family. He left at 1:00 that
afternoon and at 5:30 we recieved the phone call. That was Jan. 19,
and I'm still trying to accept that he's not coming home. I'm not
ready to write about it yet. I want to write a journal, but haven't
been able to put much down.
What I do want to write about here is how absolutely grateful I have
felt about unschooling. It was one of the first thoughts that came
into my mind when I started to be able to think again. Thank God we
found this path. Thank God not a minute was wasted. I'm not
religious, though I find myself in a state of transition when it
comes to my spirituality. But I don't know who else to thank.
Though I do want to thank all of you people who have helped me on
this journey. I don't need to explain here what I mean by all of
this. We know what we're doing here when it comes to giving our
children real lives. Lives spent full of joy and wonder. That's how
Sam has been described over and over. Full of joy.
Our whole town came out in support of us. It was beautiful and
overwhelming. I'm still getting it.
We recieved donations and we're taking our time, but we want to give
in him name through the years. While many people are on a campaign
to try to prevent tragedies like this from happening again, I keep
coming to the thought of trying to find a way to help parents really
understand how precious every minute is with their children.
Appreciating the here and now. Death comes when it will, so take
advantage of the now.
I have 3 other children and life is moving forward. We still find
lots of joy in it. Our picture is in the photos section here if you
want to see Sammy, (or any of us).
I wrote this here because this is the most peaceful and wise list I
know of. I want to express my thanks and remind the people who have
selflessly given of their time and wisdom over the years just how
important they are. You changed my life and you helped to make Sams
life so worthwhile and meaningful and full of joy.
I wrote this without crying, and am not looking for condolences.
Just giving thanks and maybe creating some discussion of how lucky we
all are to unschool. (and "un" so much of the other crap that isn't
REAL in this world)
Joanna
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
Joanna, I'm so glad you wrote and hope you'll write more, here or
everywhere, when you can. You have a clear voice and an important message to
share.
Pam
----------
everywhere, when you can. You have a clear voice and an important message to
share.
Pam
----------
>From: "joanna514 <Wilkinson6@...>" <Wilkinson6@...>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] (unknown)
>Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2003, 6:58 AM
>
> I wrote this here because this is the most peaceful and wise list I
> know of. I want to express my thanks and remind the people who have
> selflessly given of their time and wisdom over the years just how
> important they are. You changed my life and you helped to make Sams
> life so worthwhile and meaningful and full of joy.
> I wrote this without crying, and am not looking for condolences.
> Just giving thanks and maybe creating some discussion of how lucky we
> all are to unschool. (and "un" so much of the other crap that isn't
> REAL in this world)
Karin
> I wrote this without crying, and am not looking for condolences.Well, good for you that you wrote what you wanted to say without crying, but
> Just giving thanks and maybe creating some discussion of how lucky we
> all are to unschool. (and "un" so much of the other crap that isn't
> REAL in this world)
> Joanna
as for me reading it - I couldn't help the tears welling up in my eyes!
Joanna, you don't know me but I've read your posts for over a year now -
here and at unschooling-dotcom and the message boards. I've gained a lot
from your writing and perspective and could always tell that you really
*got* unschooling and lived life joyfully with your family. I always looked
forward to reading your opinions on various subjects - believe it or not!
<g>
When the news of your son's death was posted last month, I was very saddened
and affected by the knowledge of what happened. I know you said you aren't
looked for condolences, but I am so truly sorry for your loss and my heart
aches for you. But I must also say that you are truly amazing and inspiring
for writing here with such courage and with words of strength, acceptance
and peace about what happened to you and your family. I really admire your
attitude about *everything*, in spite of your loss. I only hope that if I am
ever faced with any sort of circumstances similar to yours, that I would
have the perspective that you have spoken of here, just now.
Thanks so much for writing and sharing and checking in. Thanks for being an
incredible human being.
Take Care,
Karin
Kelly Grimes
Joanna,
My thoughts are with you,and thank you so much for
reminding us of what we all take for granted every
day.
=====
KELLY
mama to:
RAINY
PHOENIX
& TIA
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
My thoughts are with you,and thank you so much for
reminding us of what we all take for granted every
day.
=====
KELLY
mama to:
RAINY
PHOENIX
& TIA
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Tia Leschke
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
but I'm not quite under 200 yet.) Can I still be in the club?
Huh? Huh?
Tia
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
> ***...only if I don't show up.I'm only 5'6", but I fit the other categories for now. (I'm losing weight,
> I've long brown hair, stand 5'10", and am a
> gorgeous 230#'s.
> So, are all unschoolers tall, voluptuous and
> have long hair?
> HeidiWD***
>
> I know that I am!! 5'8", 250#'s. My husband thinks I'm gorgeous, and
> most of the time so do I.
but I'm not quite under 200 yet.) Can I still be in the club?
Huh? Huh?
Tia
Elizabeth Hill
**
I know what you mean by this, but it didn't seem to apply to the original
ramp and shelf questions very well.**
I've been imagining an outdoor ramp, but was an indoor ramp intended?
I would automatically tell a shelf climbing kid "We can't climb in the store." And I might add "That shelf isn't designed for climbing." But I'd most likely ONLY stop a kid from running (on an outdoor ramp) if there were other people who could be jostled or annoyed. I guess I (baselessly) think of outdoor spaces as public, and I'm less deferential to the rule creating body. Sure, I follow the prescribed rules at swimming pools (walk, don't run), but I'm having a harder time respecting a ramp usage rule for an outdoor ramp. (I'm specifically visualizing a ramp that is part of the sidewalk from a building used by the public on the way to the parking lot. Different rules for different ramps.)
Betsy
I know what you mean by this, but it didn't seem to apply to the original
ramp and shelf questions very well.**
I've been imagining an outdoor ramp, but was an indoor ramp intended?
I would automatically tell a shelf climbing kid "We can't climb in the store." And I might add "That shelf isn't designed for climbing." But I'd most likely ONLY stop a kid from running (on an outdoor ramp) if there were other people who could be jostled or annoyed. I guess I (baselessly) think of outdoor spaces as public, and I'm less deferential to the rule creating body. Sure, I follow the prescribed rules at swimming pools (walk, don't run), but I'm having a harder time respecting a ramp usage rule for an outdoor ramp. (I'm specifically visualizing a ramp that is part of the sidewalk from a building used by the public on the way to the parking lot. Different rules for different ramps.)
Betsy
Pam Hartley
> I am confused about my responces as a parent and I'll giveThere are often more than four choices in a given situation.
> some (ACTUAL)examples I would really appreciate feedback on:
> He's running down a sidewalk incline with a big sign that says "no
> Running" Should I:
> 1) Ignore it, console him if he falls down
> 2) Ask him to read the sign
> 3) say something like "don't run"
> 4) say something like "please stop running, it's dangerous to run
> down an incline like this"
It depends. Is the sign there because usually there is a huge crowd on the
weekends and running would be a danger and nuisance, but today is Monday
mid-morning and the sidewalk is deserted and there's no problem whatsoever
with him running? Or is it Saturday afternoon and the crowd is massive and
surly? Is the incline just a little bit and not necessarily dangerous, or
would anybody short of a mountain goat fall on it and break something? Did I
know he needed to run off energy AND that I was taking him to a place
dangerous to do so, and if so, why did I make that decision?
My answer is: 5) Parent thoughtfully, take into consideration my child's
wants and needs versus the chances of him actually being in danger or a
serious nuisance to other people's right to walk peacefully down a sidewalk,
and act accordingly. My reaction would be the same if an adult friend or my
husband were the one I was worried about running down the incline.
>What does the shelf normally hold? Is it a shelf where they keep couches
> another example: He's standing on a shelf in a department store,
> should I:
> 1) Ignore it, pray silently to myself that he doesn't break it
> 2) say something like "is standing on a shelf a safe and
> appropriate thing to do?"
> 3) say something like "don't stand on store shelves"
> 4) say something like "Please get down, you could break that"
that is currently empty and is 1" off the floor and nobody would care if he
was standing on it? Or is it a flexible/fragile shelf that clearly a sturdy
boy could very well break? And was I aware in advance that he wanted to
climb and balance on things and instead I'm meandering through a shopping
trip I could have put off until my husband got home to look after him, or
did he really want to come on this shopping trip (and if so, why, and what
was he hoping would happen, and once I see he's not enjoying it how can I
bring it to as swift an end as possible?)
I often see parents drag their children along to places and errands that the
child has no interest in and could be done at other times. In dog training
;) I used to tell my clients that preventing opportunities for poor behavior
in puppies and young dogs was 99.9% of the secret of raising a good dog.
While kids aren't dogs, the basic "prevent the problem in the first place"
philosophy works well for us, as does the idea that setting someone up to
fail is unfair.
Pam
[email protected]
-=I am confused about my responces as a parent and I'll give
some (ACTUAL)examples I would really appreciate feedback on:
He's running down a sidewalk incline with a big sign that says "no
Running"-=-
If I wanted to let him run, I would go down below him and let him run toward
me.
If there were other people there I would say "Stop running." Two reasons:
he could knock someone else down, and it sets a bad example for other kids and
irritates people. People have a right not to be irritated to some extent.
If he lusted for that ramp, I'd bring him back after hours and let him run,
run, run. (I'd double check his shoe laces, and I would take bandaids and
antibiotics, and I would try to get him to wear thick pants, and not favorite
pants.)
<<Should I:
1) Ignore it, console him if he falls down>>
Maybe on the first, definitely on the latter.
<<2) Ask him to read the sign>>
Would you say to your husband or an adult friend "read the sign"? You would
probably say "There's a sign here that says 'don't run'."
<<3) say something like "don't run">> Maybe; depends; probably.
<<4) say something like "please stop running, it's dangerous to run
down an incline like this">>
Well you could say people get hurt on inclines and you'd hate to have to take
him to the hospital. But generally "please stop running, it's dangerous to
run
down an incline like this" is WAY too many words. If it's dangerous, go
with "Stop" or "don't."
-=another example: He's standing on a shelf in a department store,
should I:
1) Ignore it, pray silently to myself that he doesn't break it
2) say something like "is standing on a shelf a safe and
appropriate thing to do?"
3) say something like "don't stand on store shelves"
4) say something like "Please get down, you could break that"-=-
I would say "Get down." I wouldn't say please. I wouldn't quiz him about
what's safe or appropriate. If you want him to have the experience of standing
on a shelf, buy your own shelf, or build some at home, but don't let him stand
on other people's shelves.
-=-I keep reading more books (currently reading John Holt - Freedom and
Beyond and I think its the most confusing yet) and none of them can
seem to agree which approach is better, URGH! Please help.-=-
Why should they agree? I see several people have already answered this
before I did. I'm not looking until after I post. We probably won't agree. Your
job is to read it and see what makes the most sense for you and your own
integrity and conscience.
Sandra
some (ACTUAL)examples I would really appreciate feedback on:
He's running down a sidewalk incline with a big sign that says "no
Running"-=-
If I wanted to let him run, I would go down below him and let him run toward
me.
If there were other people there I would say "Stop running." Two reasons:
he could knock someone else down, and it sets a bad example for other kids and
irritates people. People have a right not to be irritated to some extent.
If he lusted for that ramp, I'd bring him back after hours and let him run,
run, run. (I'd double check his shoe laces, and I would take bandaids and
antibiotics, and I would try to get him to wear thick pants, and not favorite
pants.)
<<Should I:
1) Ignore it, console him if he falls down>>
Maybe on the first, definitely on the latter.
<<2) Ask him to read the sign>>
Would you say to your husband or an adult friend "read the sign"? You would
probably say "There's a sign here that says 'don't run'."
<<3) say something like "don't run">> Maybe; depends; probably.
<<4) say something like "please stop running, it's dangerous to run
down an incline like this">>
Well you could say people get hurt on inclines and you'd hate to have to take
him to the hospital. But generally "please stop running, it's dangerous to
run
down an incline like this" is WAY too many words. If it's dangerous, go
with "Stop" or "don't."
-=another example: He's standing on a shelf in a department store,
should I:
1) Ignore it, pray silently to myself that he doesn't break it
2) say something like "is standing on a shelf a safe and
appropriate thing to do?"
3) say something like "don't stand on store shelves"
4) say something like "Please get down, you could break that"-=-
I would say "Get down." I wouldn't say please. I wouldn't quiz him about
what's safe or appropriate. If you want him to have the experience of standing
on a shelf, buy your own shelf, or build some at home, but don't let him stand
on other people's shelves.
-=-I keep reading more books (currently reading John Holt - Freedom and
Beyond and I think its the most confusing yet) and none of them can
seem to agree which approach is better, URGH! Please help.-=-
Why should they agree? I see several people have already answered this
before I did. I'm not looking until after I post. We probably won't agree. Your
job is to read it and see what makes the most sense for you and your own
integrity and conscience.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/29/04 2:31:59 PM, joylyn@... writes:
<< Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. >>
Really? Then I don't want them to visit my house.
If they come to my house and I don't want them to run down the stairs from my
deck and you tell them it's okay to ignore me, that would be bad for personal
integrity, modelling behavior, safety, and friendship.
<< Rules are often wrong, not reasonable, or
downright against my moral beliefs.>>
Perhaps, but a store's shelf belongs to the store. And depending whose ramp
that was and who else was present, it's not a matter for morality.
<<I agree with this, but I also think I have a responsibility to help them
to think for themselves.>>
It's worth suggesting that in some circumstances, they don't get to think for
themselves. If they're visiting somewhere and the owner of a fragile item
says "Don't play with that, it's 300 years old," that's a rule and a directive
they should'nt BEGIN to think about ignoring, in my opinion.
Sandra
<< Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. >>
Really? Then I don't want them to visit my house.
If they come to my house and I don't want them to run down the stairs from my
deck and you tell them it's okay to ignore me, that would be bad for personal
integrity, modelling behavior, safety, and friendship.
<< Rules are often wrong, not reasonable, or
downright against my moral beliefs.>>
Perhaps, but a store's shelf belongs to the store. And depending whose ramp
that was and who else was present, it's not a matter for morality.
<<I agree with this, but I also think I have a responsibility to help them
to think for themselves.>>
It's worth suggesting that in some circumstances, they don't get to think for
themselves. If they're visiting somewhere and the owner of a fragile item
says "Don't play with that, it's 300 years old," that's a rule and a directive
they should'nt BEGIN to think about ignoring, in my opinion.
Sandra
April M
In a message dated 2/29/04 2:31:59 PM, joylyn@... writes:
<< Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. >>
I, too, want my children to make their own decisions....and I don't want
them to 'blindly follow rules' , however.....I do think that one can teach
children to think for themselves while still learning to appreciate why a
rule exists. And though I don't want my children to blindly follow an adult
(or another child, for that matter) I do hope they can learn to respect
differences. We have all kinds of friends, and being 'liberal' as far as
parenting goes, many of our friends have more rules then we have. I would
never encourage my kids to break other people's rules in their homes just
because we disagree with it. We respect their right to make whatever rules
they want in their own homes. If we enjoy their company enough to want to
spend time with them in their home, then we will live with their rules while
there. Obviously, I don't mean following rules that I think will harm my
children. I'm thinking of things like having to sit at the table until
everyone is done eating. Or not being able to watch certain shows at their
house. As far as rules in society....we have many discussions about why the
rule is there. Who is the rule protecting (often it's more to protect
someone from litigation than from actual harm to a participant), what
happens if you break the rule (both personally, i.e.. injury, or legally,
i.e.. a ticket, maybe being asked to leave, or maybe nothing will happen),
that sort of thing. Teaching kids to respect rules and laws does not mean
we have to teach blind obedience. We also talk about lots of the rules and
laws that exist that society turns a blind eye to. No one drives the speed
limit on the express ways in our area. Our current pet peeve rule is that
my 15 yod cannot go to an R rated movie without me being present. I don't
like the theaters deciding that I have to be there. I don't like most R
movies and have little desire to go. To me, it's a stupid rule. Do I
understand why it's there? Sure. But I still disagree. Do we break it?
Depends....sometimes they have a 'don't ask, don't tell' philosophy and she
can get in. Other times, they ask for Id...then she's out of luck if I
didn't happen to be the one to drive her. It's pretty arbitrary, depending
on the mood of who's collecting tickets. And then again....would I want a
society with no rules or laws? Would I want to visit a home that didn't
have some kind of standard of behavior? (I've seen homes like that...it's
not a pretty sight!) I don't want my kids to 'blindly' follow rules, but
nor do I want my kids to 'blindly' break rules without any thought.
~April
Homeschooling Mom to Kate-17, Lisa-15, Karl-12, & Ben-8.
*Facilitator to REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting at the
Auburn Hills Library.
http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Member of Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future," Galadrial
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<< Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. >>
I, too, want my children to make their own decisions....and I don't want
them to 'blindly follow rules' , however.....I do think that one can teach
children to think for themselves while still learning to appreciate why a
rule exists. And though I don't want my children to blindly follow an adult
(or another child, for that matter) I do hope they can learn to respect
differences. We have all kinds of friends, and being 'liberal' as far as
parenting goes, many of our friends have more rules then we have. I would
never encourage my kids to break other people's rules in their homes just
because we disagree with it. We respect their right to make whatever rules
they want in their own homes. If we enjoy their company enough to want to
spend time with them in their home, then we will live with their rules while
there. Obviously, I don't mean following rules that I think will harm my
children. I'm thinking of things like having to sit at the table until
everyone is done eating. Or not being able to watch certain shows at their
house. As far as rules in society....we have many discussions about why the
rule is there. Who is the rule protecting (often it's more to protect
someone from litigation than from actual harm to a participant), what
happens if you break the rule (both personally, i.e.. injury, or legally,
i.e.. a ticket, maybe being asked to leave, or maybe nothing will happen),
that sort of thing. Teaching kids to respect rules and laws does not mean
we have to teach blind obedience. We also talk about lots of the rules and
laws that exist that society turns a blind eye to. No one drives the speed
limit on the express ways in our area. Our current pet peeve rule is that
my 15 yod cannot go to an R rated movie without me being present. I don't
like the theaters deciding that I have to be there. I don't like most R
movies and have little desire to go. To me, it's a stupid rule. Do I
understand why it's there? Sure. But I still disagree. Do we break it?
Depends....sometimes they have a 'don't ask, don't tell' philosophy and she
can get in. Other times, they ask for Id...then she's out of luck if I
didn't happen to be the one to drive her. It's pretty arbitrary, depending
on the mood of who's collecting tickets. And then again....would I want a
society with no rules or laws? Would I want to visit a home that didn't
have some kind of standard of behavior? (I've seen homes like that...it's
not a pretty sight!) I don't want my kids to 'blindly' follow rules, but
nor do I want my kids to 'blindly' break rules without any thought.
~April
Homeschooling Mom to Kate-17, Lisa-15, Karl-12, & Ben-8.
*Facilitator to REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting at the
Auburn Hills Library.
http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Member of Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future," Galadrial
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
want them to blindly follow rules. I also don't say I want them to
blindly follow what adults say, simply because they are adults. I want
them to think for themselves.
They are logical and reasonable and enforcable. Other rules are there
for no reason. For instance, in our townhome, there is a rule that no
one under 14 can be in the hot tub, ever. When we researched this and
asked them why there was a rule, they came up with a lot of "real"
sounding answers. Children over heat easily. Children might pee in the
hot tub. Upon really looking at this, we discovered that older adults
also might pee in the tub. Also, older adults are often more prone to
overheating because of medical problems. Furthermore, older adults are
likely to have more issues with hot tubs when drugs or alcohol are being
used. There are no dangers for children in hot tubs as long as they
are following rules which keep them safe. So, their reasons for their
rule was not logical. It was not reasonable. We went to a board
meeting and gave them page after page about how children are safe in hot
tubs if reasonable caution is observed, such as not staying in for
longer than about 10 minutes, which are, by the way, the same guidelines
for everyone else. We petitioned the board to change the rule. They
did not. So, we talked to the girls about civil disobdience. We found
out what would happen if they violated the rule (we'd loose swimming
privledges for a month). The girls made the decision that they did not
want to get into the hot tub that much, but would instead rather follow
the rules, so they could swim in the pool. THAT is an informed decision.
My ch ildren don't stand on shelving in grocery stores. I don't think
they ever would even do that. But they don't NOT do it because it's a
rule. They don't do it because it's not safe, it could hurt a person,
or thing, or cause damage which would cost money to fix. My children
are reasonable human beings who, when asked not to do something that is
reasonable, don't do it. It doesn't matter who tells them. They can
understand why running down stairs might be dangerous. They can
understand why running down a ramp might be dangerous.
visiting someone's house, and that house is filled with a great deal of
fragile items, I would mention this fact upon my knowing this fact.
"Janene, this man's house is filled with great items that are about 300
years old, can we look with our eyes? It would be horrid to drop
something that is not replacable, so it's easier to look with our eyes,
even mommy, than to risk such a thing." My children, being reasonable
humans who are generally respected and are thoughtful individuals, would
see the sense to such a request. It doesn't have to be RULE, it's
common sense. It's also common sense that if there is a child, Janene
perhaps, who just has a harder time being quiet and gentle and such,
then she probably needs to not go into the room with fragile items.
I do think some rules are arbitrary and wrong I don't think anyone,
including children, should just follow rules. I think they s hould
think for themselves, and decide for themselves. And I don't think
people should make up rules simply to have rules. I would assume that
if you don't want people to run down your stairs, there is a reason. I
also think that if you told my children that rule, and Lexie said "what
is the reason behind your rule?" you would answer that question and have
a reasonable answer. Lexie would see the logic in that rule and so
therefore following that rule would not be an issue. Same for shelves
in a store. Logically it makes no sense to climb on these, because the
consequences might be someone gets hurt or property is damaged.
Reasonable children who are treated with respect can understand
reasonable rules, even if unwritten, and follow those rules.
Joylyn
>Sandra, I don't say I don't want them to follow rules, I said I don't
> In a message dated 2/29/04 2:31:59 PM, joylyn@... writes:
>
> << Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do
> what
> another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
> if it goes against rules. >>
>
> Really? Then I don't want them to visit my house.
>
> If they come to my house and I don't want them to run down the stairs
> from my
> deck and you tell them it's okay to ignore me, that would be bad for
> personal
> integrity, modelling behavior, safety, and friendship.
want them to blindly follow rules. I also don't say I want them to
blindly follow what adults say, simply because they are adults. I want
them to think for themselves.
>No, not morality, but for thinking. Many rules are there for a reason.
>
> << Rules are often wrong, not reasonable, or
> downright against my moral beliefs.>>
>
> Perhaps, but a store's shelf belongs to the store. And depending
> whose ramp
> that was and who else was present, it's not a matter for morality.
They are logical and reasonable and enforcable. Other rules are there
for no reason. For instance, in our townhome, there is a rule that no
one under 14 can be in the hot tub, ever. When we researched this and
asked them why there was a rule, they came up with a lot of "real"
sounding answers. Children over heat easily. Children might pee in the
hot tub. Upon really looking at this, we discovered that older adults
also might pee in the tub. Also, older adults are often more prone to
overheating because of medical problems. Furthermore, older adults are
likely to have more issues with hot tubs when drugs or alcohol are being
used. There are no dangers for children in hot tubs as long as they
are following rules which keep them safe. So, their reasons for their
rule was not logical. It was not reasonable. We went to a board
meeting and gave them page after page about how children are safe in hot
tubs if reasonable caution is observed, such as not staying in for
longer than about 10 minutes, which are, by the way, the same guidelines
for everyone else. We petitioned the board to change the rule. They
did not. So, we talked to the girls about civil disobdience. We found
out what would happen if they violated the rule (we'd loose swimming
privledges for a month). The girls made the decision that they did not
want to get into the hot tub that much, but would instead rather follow
the rules, so they could swim in the pool. THAT is an informed decision.
My ch ildren don't stand on shelving in grocery stores. I don't think
they ever would even do that. But they don't NOT do it because it's a
rule. They don't do it because it's not safe, it could hurt a person,
or thing, or cause damage which would cost money to fix. My children
are reasonable human beings who, when asked not to do something that is
reasonable, don't do it. It doesn't matter who tells them. They can
understand why running down stairs might be dangerous. They can
understand why running down a ramp might be dangerous.
>I find it interesting that this is coming from you, Sandra. If they are
>
> <<I agree with this, but I also think I have a responsibility to help
> them
> to think for themselves.>>
>
> It's worth suggesting that in some circumstances, they don't get to
> think for
> themselves. If they're visiting somewhere and the owner of a fragile
> item
> says "Don't play with that, it's 300 years old," that's a rule and a
> directive
> they should'nt BEGIN to think about ignoring, in my opinion.
visiting someone's house, and that house is filled with a great deal of
fragile items, I would mention this fact upon my knowing this fact.
"Janene, this man's house is filled with great items that are about 300
years old, can we look with our eyes? It would be horrid to drop
something that is not replacable, so it's easier to look with our eyes,
even mommy, than to risk such a thing." My children, being reasonable
humans who are generally respected and are thoughtful individuals, would
see the sense to such a request. It doesn't have to be RULE, it's
common sense. It's also common sense that if there is a child, Janene
perhaps, who just has a harder time being quiet and gentle and such,
then she probably needs to not go into the room with fragile items.
I do think some rules are arbitrary and wrong I don't think anyone,
including children, should just follow rules. I think they s hould
think for themselves, and decide for themselves. And I don't think
people should make up rules simply to have rules. I would assume that
if you don't want people to run down your stairs, there is a reason. I
also think that if you told my children that rule, and Lexie said "what
is the reason behind your rule?" you would answer that question and have
a reasonable answer. Lexie would see the logic in that rule and so
therefore following that rule would not be an issue. Same for shelves
in a store. Logically it makes no sense to climb on these, because the
consequences might be someone gets hurt or property is damaged.
Reasonable children who are treated with respect can understand
reasonable rules, even if unwritten, and follow those rules.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Sandra
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In a message dated 2/29/04 9:51:07 PM, joylyn@... writes:
<< > It's worth suggesting that in some circumstances, they don't get to
Why?
I remember a long discussion once with a proponent of TCS (Taking Children
Seriously, a particular set of rules for non-coercive parenting done just a
certain way) in which the mother said if her child wanted to walk on a coffee
table, she would find a way for him to do it. I said it should depend whose
coffee table it was, and she said no, it didn't matter to her.
So I said then too not to bring them to my house.
I have two coffee tables that are both crap, and I honestly wouldn't care.
That's not the point. It wasn't about coffee tables. It was about the rights
of people over their own space and property.
I doubt there's anyone here who just opens their home up to any bypassing
people to do what they want to. I doubt that anyone here who has a store or has
ever worked in a store, would just let kids cut loose and do whatever,
regardless. And if you had a family with kids and they were letting their kids use
their own judgment about what to take off shelves and what to do with it here's
where it matters: Are those kids doing things you're comfortable with them
doing? If so, it's not a problem. If not, and their parents have said
"question rules and don't do anything an adult tells you," I think that parent has
done a disservice.
Maybe you oon't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do
<< > It's worth suggesting that in some circumstances, they don't get to
> think for-=-I find it interesting that this is coming from you, Sandra. -=-
> themselves. If they're visiting somewhere and the owner of a fragile
> item
> says "Don't play with that, it's 300 years old," that's a rule and a
> directive
> they should'nt BEGIN to think about ignoring, in my opinion.
Why?
I remember a long discussion once with a proponent of TCS (Taking Children
Seriously, a particular set of rules for non-coercive parenting done just a
certain way) in which the mother said if her child wanted to walk on a coffee
table, she would find a way for him to do it. I said it should depend whose
coffee table it was, and she said no, it didn't matter to her.
So I said then too not to bring them to my house.
I have two coffee tables that are both crap, and I honestly wouldn't care.
That's not the point. It wasn't about coffee tables. It was about the rights
of people over their own space and property.
I doubt there's anyone here who just opens their home up to any bypassing
people to do what they want to. I doubt that anyone here who has a store or has
ever worked in a store, would just let kids cut loose and do whatever,
regardless. And if you had a family with kids and they were letting their kids use
their own judgment about what to take off shelves and what to do with it here's
where it matters: Are those kids doing things you're comfortable with them
doing? If so, it's not a problem. If not, and their parents have said
"question rules and don't do anything an adult tells you," I think that parent has
done a disservice.
Maybe you oon't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do
> whatSandra
> another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
> if it goes against rules. >>-=-
joylyn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
idea that children have rights and should be treated with respect. But
anyone who knows me knows I don't unparent. I try hard to always treat
my children with respect and dignity, as though they are complete and
whole beings (no less whole than I, who is also still learning and
growing).
would have absolutely no problem following them, because they are also
reasonable. However, if you put a big dish m&ms down in front of my
kids and said "these m&ms are for adults who are over 50 years old only
and no one else may touch them, I have no reason for that rule, I just
do it because I like to control people", both my children and I would
probably find some reason to leave rather quickly and would also
probably find a store pretty quickly to buy our own m&ms. Sure, they
are your m&ms, and sure, it's your house, and sure, it's your rule. But
that doesn't mean we have to be there--in that case you can have your
rights over your space and property, we'll go to a park and eat m&ms by
ourselves!
missing--blindly. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY follow
rules. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY trust an adult, simply
because they are an adult. I do want them to question authority. I do
want them to make informed choices. Sometimes my kids follow rules
about which they don't agree, simply because they want to participate in
an activity (such as not getting in the hot tub because they wish to
swim in the regular pool). Other times we fudge things a bit so they
can participate (like saying Janene is in 1st grade this year so she can
be a Girl Scout Brownie, when she really would be, if she were in
school, a K. Or saying Lexie is 9, instead of 8, so she can participate
as a pre-teen at the conference.) Personally, I think it's good common
sense for people to think for themselves. Most of the time, my kids
follow the rules, or do as an adult has asked them to do, because the
rule and request are reasonable. Sometimes they do it because it's too
much bother to do otherwise--learning to pick their battles is another
important lesson.
A friend once said that she wanted her children to learn two
things--question authority and consider the source. Here is my list, or
probably the beginning of my list...
Question authority
Consider the source
Make informed decisions
Pick battles carefully
One of the greatest things I see about homeschooling, is that there
doesn't seem to be the need for a bunch of rules, which schools, and
parents of schooled children, need--to simply control the masses. As a
teacher of 30 kids, I need a bunch of rules to control the herd. As a
parent of two, especially as those two are treated with respect, and are
reasonable humans who honor logic, there is little need for rules.
Instead, we can simply talk about the situation, and make informed
decisions about the best way to proceed.
Joylyn
>cause you're not seeming to read what I'm writing.
> In a message dated 2/29/04 9:51:07 PM, joylyn@... writes:
>
> << > It's worth suggesting that in some circumstances, they don't get to
> > think for
> > themselves. If they're visiting somewhere and the owner of a fragile
> > item
> > says "Don't play with that, it's 300 years old," that's a rule and a
> > directive
> > they should'nt BEGIN to think about ignoring, in my opinion.
>
> -=-I find it interesting that this is coming from you, Sandra. -=-
>
> Why?
>I'm not a proponent of TCS. I like some of their ideals, mostly the
>
> I remember a long discussion once with a proponent of TCS (Taking
> Children
> Seriously, a particular set of rules for non-coercive parenting done
> just a
> certain way) in which the mother said if her child wanted to walk on a
> coffee
> table, she would find a way for him to do it. I said it should depend
> whose
> coffee table it was, and she said no, it didn't matter to her.
idea that children have rights and should be treated with respect. But
anyone who knows me knows I don't unparent. I try hard to always treat
my children with respect and dignity, as though they are complete and
whole beings (no less whole than I, who is also still learning and
growing).
> So I said then too not to bring them to my house.I totally agree. And if your rules were reasonable, then my children
>
> I have two coffee tables that are both crap, and I honestly wouldn't
> care.
> That's not the point. It wasn't about coffee tables. It was about
> the rights
> of people over their own space and property.
would have absolutely no problem following them, because they are also
reasonable. However, if you put a big dish m&ms down in front of my
kids and said "these m&ms are for adults who are over 50 years old only
and no one else may touch them, I have no reason for that rule, I just
do it because I like to control people", both my children and I would
probably find some reason to leave rather quickly and would also
probably find a store pretty quickly to buy our own m&ms. Sure, they
are your m&ms, and sure, it's your house, and sure, it's your rule. But
that doesn't mean we have to be there--in that case you can have your
rights over your space and property, we'll go to a park and eat m&ms by
ourselves!
>But you need to quote me correctly. There is a very important word
> I doubt there's anyone here who just opens their home up to any bypassing
> people to do what they want to. I doubt that anyone here who has a
> store or has
> ever worked in a store, would just let kids cut loose and do whatever,
> regardless. And if you had a family with kids and they were letting
> their kids use
> their own judgment about what to take off shelves and what to do with
> it here's
> where it matters: Are those kids doing things you're comfortable
> with them
> doing? If so, it's not a problem. If not, and their parents have said
> "question rules and don't do anything an adult tells you," I think
> that parent has
> done a disservice.
missing--blindly. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY follow
rules. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY trust an adult, simply
because they are an adult. I do want them to question authority. I do
want them to make informed choices. Sometimes my kids follow rules
about which they don't agree, simply because they want to participate in
an activity (such as not getting in the hot tub because they wish to
swim in the regular pool). Other times we fudge things a bit so they
can participate (like saying Janene is in 1st grade this year so she can
be a Girl Scout Brownie, when she really would be, if she were in
school, a K. Or saying Lexie is 9, instead of 8, so she can participate
as a pre-teen at the conference.) Personally, I think it's good common
sense for people to think for themselves. Most of the time, my kids
follow the rules, or do as an adult has asked them to do, because the
rule and request are reasonable. Sometimes they do it because it's too
much bother to do otherwise--learning to pick their battles is another
important lesson.
A friend once said that she wanted her children to learn two
things--question authority and consider the source. Here is my list, or
probably the beginning of my list...
Question authority
Consider the source
Make informed decisions
Pick battles carefully
One of the greatest things I see about homeschooling, is that there
doesn't seem to be the need for a bunch of rules, which schools, and
parents of schooled children, need--to simply control the masses. As a
teacher of 30 kids, I need a bunch of rules to control the herd. As a
parent of two, especially as those two are treated with respect, and are
reasonable humans who honor logic, there is little need for rules.
Instead, we can simply talk about the situation, and make informed
decisions about the best way to proceed.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Maybe you oon't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do
> > what
> > another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
> > if it goes against rules. >>-=-
>
> Sandra
>
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Kerrin or Ralph Taylor
Joylyn,
I absolutely agree with you. It also seems to me that Sandra has some kind
of a blind spot when reading what you say. It's a bit weird, in fact.
Kerrin.
I absolutely agree with you. It also seems to me that Sandra has some kind
of a blind spot when reading what you say. It's a bit weird, in fact.
Kerrin.
>
> A friend once said that she wanted her children to learn two
> things--question authority and consider the source. Here is my list, or
> probably the beginning of my list...
>
> Question authority
> Consider the source
> Make informed decisions
> Pick battles carefully
Sylvia Toyama
With regard to rules like the 'no hot tub under 14' and 'no running/swimming/wading' and so on. Respecting these rules is something of a morality issue for me. I know that most often the 'real' reason for such rules is liability protection for the owner or responsible party. Someone in risk management or the insurance company has assessed a set of risks, and the possible fallout (legal/financial) for the property and determined which risks they aren't willing to underwrite.
For example, if a child ignores the rule and is seriously injured, it won't be you, the parent, who decides which insurance company will pay out -- it will be decided by the insurance company when it determines it can shift the 'blame' or responsibility elsewhere (to another insurance company). That's how insurance lawsuits happen. Remember the woman burned by the overly hot coffee at McDonalds? She didn't make the decision to sue McD's -- Medicare did, when they found they could shift the cost to some other entity. In the hot tub situ, the insurance could then demand that the hot tub be removed before continuing to insure the property, since the managers were negligent (in the ins. co's opinion). Then everyone loses a hot tub.
Would you want someone else's children to come to your home and flout all your rules, because they were told it's okay to ignore rules they don't agree with?
Sylvia
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For example, if a child ignores the rule and is seriously injured, it won't be you, the parent, who decides which insurance company will pay out -- it will be decided by the insurance company when it determines it can shift the 'blame' or responsibility elsewhere (to another insurance company). That's how insurance lawsuits happen. Remember the woman burned by the overly hot coffee at McDonalds? She didn't make the decision to sue McD's -- Medicare did, when they found they could shift the cost to some other entity. In the hot tub situ, the insurance could then demand that the hot tub be removed before continuing to insure the property, since the managers were negligent (in the ins. co's opinion). Then everyone loses a hot tub.
Would you want someone else's children to come to your home and flout all your rules, because they were told it's okay to ignore rules they don't agree with?
Sylvia
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Deirdre Aycock
Sylvia - I'm curious--What ages are these children that your mother has decided you are ruining for life? Just a guess, but I bet you are putting a lot more thought into how you are being with your kids than she did when you were little. If you are putting this much thought into your parenting skills, I think you must be a one good mom!
Just because your oldest is going through some rough times, doesn't mean you have "failed" as a parent.
You've used this "pond" thingy as an example. It reminds me of a Thomas the Tank Engine episode where Thomas didn't feel like heeding a sign that said "Danger" and he wound up falling into some water. The idea the writer was trying to get across was that sometimes you don't know why the rule is there, so it's best to follow it. I've heard things like that pond called an attractive nusiance. My husband had to put a huge (expensive) fence around something just like that in a subdivision he was building. The city required the fence because kids aren't going to read a sign and they aren't going to figure out how dangerous that thing is until they've already fallen in.
I am trying to give my kids as much freedom as I can, but I can think of *lots* of things they can't do. They are 11 and 9, so I can explain to them when I'm acting based on my own insecurities. They have their own quirky worries, too, which I try to respect, so they are patient with mine. There are lots of situations, though, where I still just have to tell them to "Stop that." Maybe I can explain later what the deal was, but when they were toddlers, I needed them to "mind me" immediately for safety reasons. For example, I can't let a toddler run in a busy parking lot. I guess the overall principle is that my job is to keep them safe. As they get older, they take on some of that responsibility for themselves, just like they start doing more and more about getting fed. And that's a real balancing act for me. I want them to do as much for themselves as they can, but I don't want them burdened with too much responsibility.
One more thought. My life got a lot more peaceful when I mentally promoted myself to the rank of "adult" and demoted my parents and my in-laws to the rank of "an adult friend." I allow only as much comment/criticism/advice from them as I would accept from any other adult friend. Any more than that and they are being controlling or abusive, and I start limiting my contact with them. I don't know about your mother, but I doubt my mother would ever think of me as a competent adult. I had to make that decision for myself--when I was 33!
Deirdre in Alabama
Just because your oldest is going through some rough times, doesn't mean you have "failed" as a parent.
You've used this "pond" thingy as an example. It reminds me of a Thomas the Tank Engine episode where Thomas didn't feel like heeding a sign that said "Danger" and he wound up falling into some water. The idea the writer was trying to get across was that sometimes you don't know why the rule is there, so it's best to follow it. I've heard things like that pond called an attractive nusiance. My husband had to put a huge (expensive) fence around something just like that in a subdivision he was building. The city required the fence because kids aren't going to read a sign and they aren't going to figure out how dangerous that thing is until they've already fallen in.
I am trying to give my kids as much freedom as I can, but I can think of *lots* of things they can't do. They are 11 and 9, so I can explain to them when I'm acting based on my own insecurities. They have their own quirky worries, too, which I try to respect, so they are patient with mine. There are lots of situations, though, where I still just have to tell them to "Stop that." Maybe I can explain later what the deal was, but when they were toddlers, I needed them to "mind me" immediately for safety reasons. For example, I can't let a toddler run in a busy parking lot. I guess the overall principle is that my job is to keep them safe. As they get older, they take on some of that responsibility for themselves, just like they start doing more and more about getting fed. And that's a real balancing act for me. I want them to do as much for themselves as they can, but I don't want them burdened with too much responsibility.
One more thought. My life got a lot more peaceful when I mentally promoted myself to the rank of "adult" and demoted my parents and my in-laws to the rank of "an adult friend." I allow only as much comment/criticism/advice from them as I would accept from any other adult friend. Any more than that and they are being controlling or abusive, and I start limiting my contact with them. I don't know about your mother, but I doubt my mother would ever think of me as a competent adult. I had to make that decision for myself--when I was 33!
Deirdre in Alabama
----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Toyama
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] (unknown)
Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. Rules are often wrong, not reasonable, or
downright against my moral beliefs. My kids have learned about civil
disobidience.
****
Yes, in that example of the no running rule, and similar ones. For example, at our neighborhood park there is a sign that reads No Fishing, No Wading No Swimming at the pond. Actually it's just a big drainage basin, but it does have fish, ducks and frogs -- it also has a rough concrete finish, and the water is beyond skanky and filthy. The rule exists for a good reason. Besides, the entire time they are leaning over the edge looking for fish, I'm truly very worried someone will fall in and be hurt. I realize it's obssesive, but it's one of my genuine phobias, so in that case, I'm glad I can cite the rule and herd them back towards the playground. Maybe I should more closely examine my motives, and how I respond.
For that matter, it might be best if everyone just discounts much of what I say this weekend -- I've just been thru an 'encounter' with my Mom where she has AGAIN offered unsolicited advice for how I should be disciplining my children, the many mistakes I've made with my oldest (and the current fall-out he's working thru) adn how I really need to look at my methods and make sure I prevent the same mistakes with the other two.... and I'm a little defensive and scattered right now. It's probably time for a personal rant into my journal.....
Syl
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Sylvia Toyama
I'm still wondering how my reply -- that I would explain the reason behind the rule, but still expect my child to obey it (with regard to NO... outside my home) became 'blindly following the rules." I didn't say I'd tell them 'do it because the sign says so' but neither did I explain that of course, we discuss the why behind virtually every NO.
If anything, I've been accused of 'over-explaining' everything to my kids.... of letting them always have their own way...... of always caving in to them..... I over talk and should just dominate them because that will teach them to 'dominate' parts of themselves -- whatever the f that means. (sorry, still more than a little pissed at my Mom)
gotta go, dan is calling
syl
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If anything, I've been accused of 'over-explaining' everything to my kids.... of letting them always have their own way...... of always caving in to them..... I over talk and should just dominate them because that will teach them to 'dominate' parts of themselves -- whatever the f that means. (sorry, still more than a little pissed at my Mom)
gotta go, dan is calling
syl
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joylyn
Sylvia Toyama wrote:
But I don't have a bunch of rules in my house. What rules would they
not follow? The few rules I have are safety rules, designed to keep the
people (not the children) who are in my house safe. If a person (not a
child, but a person of any age) decided to not follow rules that I
consider those of safety, then that's fine, that's their choice, but
then I would react to that.
For instance, if a person, say--my sister in law--decided that she
didn't need to wear a seat belt in my car. That's a rule I have, and
one that is not negotiable. All children who need to be in a boster or
safety seat are in a safety seat. All others need to wear a seat belt.
If my sister in law doesn't want to wear a seat belt, that's OK. But
then, she can't ride in my car. I take a boy home from school about 3-4
times a week. He doesn't wear seat belts in his mother's car. He does
in mine. The one time he said he doesn't wear seat belts, I said great,
get out. Good bye. I told him that in my car everyone wears seat
belts, or they aren't in my car. Period. He made an informed
choice--to put his seat belt on (the alternative was to walk through a
horrible neighborhood at dusk, where gangs hang out.)
But really, I've never had an issue with the very few rules I have. I
treat everyone, regardless of age, as though they are reasonable,
responsible humans who want to be safe and who generally act in a
reasonable way. I take lots of children lots of places, and I've rarely
had a child do things which are unsafe or might cause damage to property
or others. The few times a behavior like that began, a conversation
would begin. We would talk about the situation and why that action was
not acceptable, and because I treated the child as though they were
reasonable, they either saw the reason for not behaving in that way or
we found an alternative.
There has been, more than once, a problem with adults. Example--the
time an adult insisted on a girl scout field trip that her 8 year old
daughter needed to sit in the front seat in a car where there was an air
bag. Girl Scout rules say that is not allowed, and the mother had a
tempertantrum. I insisted the rule be followed, of they not attend the
trip. It's a safety rule, I don't bend on safety rules. In thinking,
it's always been adults who have tried to get away with breaking
rules... hmmm.
Joylyn
> With regard to rules like the 'no hot tub under 14' and 'noIt would depend upon the child, the rules, the reasons, etc.
> running/swimming/wading' and so on. Respecting these rules is
> something of a morality issue for me. I know that most often the
> 'real' reason for such rules is liability protection for the owner or
> responsible party. Someone in risk management or the insurance
> company has assessed a set of risks, and the possible fallout
> (legal/financial) for the property and determined which risks they
> aren't willing to underwrite.
>
> For example, if a child ignores the rule and is seriously injured, it
> won't be you, the parent, who decides which insurance company will pay
> out -- it will be decided by the insurance company when it determines
> it can shift the 'blame' or responsibility elsewhere (to another
> insurance company). That's how insurance lawsuits happen. Remember
> the woman burned by the overly hot coffee at McDonalds? She didn't
> make the decision to sue McD's -- Medicare did, when they found they
> could shift the cost to some other entity. In the hot tub situ, the
> insurance could then demand that the hot tub be removed before
> continuing to insure the property, since the managers were negligent
> (in the ins. co's opinion). Then everyone loses a hot tub.
>
> Would you want someone else's children to come to your home and flout
> all your rules, because they were told it's okay to ignore rules they
> don't agree with?
But I don't have a bunch of rules in my house. What rules would they
not follow? The few rules I have are safety rules, designed to keep the
people (not the children) who are in my house safe. If a person (not a
child, but a person of any age) decided to not follow rules that I
consider those of safety, then that's fine, that's their choice, but
then I would react to that.
For instance, if a person, say--my sister in law--decided that she
didn't need to wear a seat belt in my car. That's a rule I have, and
one that is not negotiable. All children who need to be in a boster or
safety seat are in a safety seat. All others need to wear a seat belt.
If my sister in law doesn't want to wear a seat belt, that's OK. But
then, she can't ride in my car. I take a boy home from school about 3-4
times a week. He doesn't wear seat belts in his mother's car. He does
in mine. The one time he said he doesn't wear seat belts, I said great,
get out. Good bye. I told him that in my car everyone wears seat
belts, or they aren't in my car. Period. He made an informed
choice--to put his seat belt on (the alternative was to walk through a
horrible neighborhood at dusk, where gangs hang out.)
But really, I've never had an issue with the very few rules I have. I
treat everyone, regardless of age, as though they are reasonable,
responsible humans who want to be safe and who generally act in a
reasonable way. I take lots of children lots of places, and I've rarely
had a child do things which are unsafe or might cause damage to property
or others. The few times a behavior like that began, a conversation
would begin. We would talk about the situation and why that action was
not acceptable, and because I treated the child as though they were
reasonable, they either saw the reason for not behaving in that way or
we found an alternative.
There has been, more than once, a problem with adults. Example--the
time an adult insisted on a girl scout field trip that her 8 year old
daughter needed to sit in the front seat in a car where there was an air
bag. Girl Scout rules say that is not allowed, and the mother had a
tempertantrum. I insisted the rule be followed, of they not attend the
trip. It's a safety rule, I don't bend on safety rules. In thinking,
it's always been adults who have tried to get away with breaking
rules... hmmm.
Joylyn
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In a message dated 3/1/04 12:22:35 AM, joylyn@... writes:
<< Sure, they
are your m&ms, and sure, it's your house, and sure, it's your rule. But
that doesn't mean we have to be there- >>
Exactly true of ramps with no-running signs and store shelves, though.
People don't have to encourage their children from following rules.
They don't need to.
They can be honest with the children and say "This isn't my ramp, so let's go
find somewhere else to run."
-=-But you need to quote me correctly. There is a very important word
missing--blindly. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY follow
rules. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY trust an adult, simply
because they are an adult. -=-
Exact quote:
-=-Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. -=-
So your clarification is that you intended "blindly" to apply to both
phrases.
That's fine, though technically it was ony in the first phrase.
-=-Rules are often wrong, not reasonable, or
downright against my moral beliefs. -=-
I know what you mean by this, but it didn't seem to apply to the original
ramp and shelf questions very well.
Sandra
<< Sure, they
are your m&ms, and sure, it's your house, and sure, it's your rule. But
that doesn't mean we have to be there- >>
Exactly true of ramps with no-running signs and store shelves, though.
People don't have to encourage their children from following rules.
They don't need to.
They can be honest with the children and say "This isn't my ramp, so let's go
find somewhere else to run."
-=-But you need to quote me correctly. There is a very important word
missing--blindly. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY follow
rules. I do teach my children to never BLINDLY trust an adult, simply
because they are an adult. -=-
Exact quote:
-=-Really? I don't teach my children to blindly follow rules or to do what
another adult says, ever. I want them to make their own decisions, even
if it goes against rules. -=-
So your clarification is that you intended "blindly" to apply to both
phrases.
That's fine, though technically it was ony in the first phrase.
-=-Rules are often wrong, not reasonable, or
downright against my moral beliefs. -=-
I know what you mean by this, but it didn't seem to apply to the original
ramp and shelf questions very well.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/1/04 7:45:37 AM, joylyn@... writes:
<< The few rules I have are safety rules, designed to keep the
people (not the children) who are in my house safe. >>
We have a high deck that's very dangerous for small children. It's not
dangerous for big people. Every time a family comes over with small children, I
show them the deck but I point out that there are places for kids to fall out,
and even on the stairs going down, the handrail is HIGH and kids could fall out
on all sides. So I say I don't mind them going up or down, but they should
have a bigger person hold their hand. Holly's helped lots of little kids up
and down it.
<<Example--the
time an adult insisted on a girl scout field trip that her 8 year old
daughter needed to sit in the front seat in a car where there was an air
bag. Girl Scout rules say that is not allowed, and the mother had a
tempertantrum. I insisted the rule be followed, of they not attend the
trip. It's a safety rule, I don't bend on safety rules.>>
If it were her car and she was driving and it was her child, I don't think
Girl Scout rules should get to say who rides where unless they're furnishing the
automobiles and the drivers.
-=-In thinking,
it's always been adults who have tried to get away with breaking
rules... hmmm.
-=-
I would rather not have an airbag than keep kids from riding in the front
seat. I've always been prone to car sickness my whole life, and sometimes the
ONLY way to get somewhere without being so sick one might as well not have gone
is to ride in the front and concentrate on whatever tricks have helped in the
past.
Sandra
<< The few rules I have are safety rules, designed to keep the
people (not the children) who are in my house safe. >>
We have a high deck that's very dangerous for small children. It's not
dangerous for big people. Every time a family comes over with small children, I
show them the deck but I point out that there are places for kids to fall out,
and even on the stairs going down, the handrail is HIGH and kids could fall out
on all sides. So I say I don't mind them going up or down, but they should
have a bigger person hold their hand. Holly's helped lots of little kids up
and down it.
<<Example--the
time an adult insisted on a girl scout field trip that her 8 year old
daughter needed to sit in the front seat in a car where there was an air
bag. Girl Scout rules say that is not allowed, and the mother had a
tempertantrum. I insisted the rule be followed, of they not attend the
trip. It's a safety rule, I don't bend on safety rules.>>
If it were her car and she was driving and it was her child, I don't think
Girl Scout rules should get to say who rides where unless they're furnishing the
automobiles and the drivers.
-=-In thinking,
it's always been adults who have tried to get away with breaking
rules... hmmm.
-=-
I would rather not have an airbag than keep kids from riding in the front
seat. I've always been prone to car sickness my whole life, and sometimes the
ONLY way to get somewhere without being so sick one might as well not have gone
is to ride in the front and concentrate on whatever tricks have helped in the
past.
Sandra
danny31374
Hello,
About two weeks ago our sweet little wonder-child (3 & 1/2 year-old-
daughter) started, out of the blue, having these demonic tantrums.
Screaming until nearly throwing up. What she is screaming about just
kind of morphs for half and hour or more. MY EARS ARE ITCHY! I WANT
IT TO BE DAYTIME. I'M SO TIRED. I DON"T LIKE YOU. I NEED A DRINK.
WHERE'S MY TOY...
We aren't sure what's the best way to handle it. I just sit with her
and try to talk to her quietly. "What's wrong?" Usually a drink or
food interrupts the screaming enough the she calms down, but it takes
a good long time to calm her down enough that she will take a drink,
but I don't want her thinking food is the answer.
Any comments welcome. Thanks.
--Danny
About two weeks ago our sweet little wonder-child (3 & 1/2 year-old-
daughter) started, out of the blue, having these demonic tantrums.
Screaming until nearly throwing up. What she is screaming about just
kind of morphs for half and hour or more. MY EARS ARE ITCHY! I WANT
IT TO BE DAYTIME. I'M SO TIRED. I DON"T LIKE YOU. I NEED A DRINK.
WHERE'S MY TOY...
We aren't sure what's the best way to handle it. I just sit with her
and try to talk to her quietly. "What's wrong?" Usually a drink or
food interrupts the screaming enough the she calms down, but it takes
a good long time to calm her down enough that she will take a drink,
but I don't want her thinking food is the answer.
Any comments welcome. Thanks.
--Danny
pam sorooshian
On Feb 29, 2004, at 8:00 PM, joylyn wrote:
usually see the sense to a request. On this list, that goes without
saying, I think. So Sandra can, typically, say, "Marty, that's loud,"
(she doesn't even have to make a request - just gently bring his
attention to it) and Marty would immediately become cognizant of his
surroundings, recognize what other people were trying to do there,
understand that his loudness was impinging on their ability to do it,
and he would CARE enough to inconvenience himself.
However, sometimes a child may not see the sense in a request. The
assumption that a child is rational is generally true, imo, but that
rationality is constrained by their knowledge and their ability to
predict consequences AND their ability to be empathetic. Although
discussing it helps them along in that development, they may simply not
have enough background knowledge, they may confuse what they hope would
be the consequences with the actual possible consequences and they
simply may not care.
I tend to give information first - without any request or command.
"There is a sign posted here that says no running."
That's what I said to my husband when he started to park the car last
night, "There is a sign there that says no parking." I didn't just
shout, abruptly, "Don't park there." Good thing, too, because in the
small print, that I couldn't read, it said, "Except Sundays." <G>
Generally there is a reason for a sign that says, "No running." I mean,
there was some reason why someone decided to put it there. At the
college where I teach there are roads that go right up to between
buildings, but there are rules about driving past a certain point.
I've heard people gripe about that - because they'd like to drive up
closer to the buildings. But any closer to the buildings and there are
students who tend to wander around with their heads in their books (or
in the clouds). I know that I would be very careful and would not run
any of them down so the rule doesn't make sense for me. But I was THERE
when a student was run over and killed and I'm glad the rule is imposed
on people - including, maybe especially including, those who don't
understand it or agree with it.
Generally I follow rules. I think the default ought to be to follow
them unless there is a good reason not to do so. To have a default of,
"Break the rule unless I understand it and it makes sense for me,"
could be dangerous - there could so easily be times when I don't
understand the reason for it, even when there is a very very good
reason. As much as I want my kids to question authority and be WILLING
to break rules, I don't want them to think that breaking rules should
be done just because they feel like it at that moment.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> My children, being reasonable humans who are generally respected andWhen kids are generally respected and treated thoughtfully, they
> are thoughtful individuals, would see the sense to such a request.
usually see the sense to a request. On this list, that goes without
saying, I think. So Sandra can, typically, say, "Marty, that's loud,"
(she doesn't even have to make a request - just gently bring his
attention to it) and Marty would immediately become cognizant of his
surroundings, recognize what other people were trying to do there,
understand that his loudness was impinging on their ability to do it,
and he would CARE enough to inconvenience himself.
However, sometimes a child may not see the sense in a request. The
assumption that a child is rational is generally true, imo, but that
rationality is constrained by their knowledge and their ability to
predict consequences AND their ability to be empathetic. Although
discussing it helps them along in that development, they may simply not
have enough background knowledge, they may confuse what they hope would
be the consequences with the actual possible consequences and they
simply may not care.
I tend to give information first - without any request or command.
"There is a sign posted here that says no running."
That's what I said to my husband when he started to park the car last
night, "There is a sign there that says no parking." I didn't just
shout, abruptly, "Don't park there." Good thing, too, because in the
small print, that I couldn't read, it said, "Except Sundays." <G>
Generally there is a reason for a sign that says, "No running." I mean,
there was some reason why someone decided to put it there. At the
college where I teach there are roads that go right up to between
buildings, but there are rules about driving past a certain point.
I've heard people gripe about that - because they'd like to drive up
closer to the buildings. But any closer to the buildings and there are
students who tend to wander around with their heads in their books (or
in the clouds). I know that I would be very careful and would not run
any of them down so the rule doesn't make sense for me. But I was THERE
when a student was run over and killed and I'm glad the rule is imposed
on people - including, maybe especially including, those who don't
understand it or agree with it.
Generally I follow rules. I think the default ought to be to follow
them unless there is a good reason not to do so. To have a default of,
"Break the rule unless I understand it and it makes sense for me,"
could be dangerous - there could so easily be times when I don't
understand the reason for it, even when there is a very very good
reason. As much as I want my kids to question authority and be WILLING
to break rules, I don't want them to think that breaking rules should
be done just because they feel like it at that moment.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.