Re: welcome new members and questions
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/2002 9:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
homeschooling forum. But I've come to realize that, even though it was sad to
lose that sense of community, it really was better for many of us to venture
out of that AOL space and connect with the even-larger world homeschooling
world on the internet. Lots of really good things have happened because of so
many of us being shoved out of that nest <G>. The building of the National
Home Education Network is a good example.
But, still, I miss those good ol' days and I have to agree that we'd have
NEVER let a few hotheads drive us out of there. We had plenty of those along
the way, but it was bureaucracy and what appeared to be incompetence that did
us in. Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
attack?
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> It was more the behind the scenes take over of control that AOL did,I was, as you know, one of the most vocal people driven off from the AOL
> bringing in a hit team to make new rules and reorganize things without the
> input the users and moderators used to have, to pull posts arbitrarily and
> thus control what was being said about what was going on. I got the rare
> privilege of being a volunteer Community whatever-it-was and got to witness
> it going down behind the scenes. It was a bizarre invasion of incompetents
> that, in retrospect, was undoubtedly a planned skillful attack to drive off
> the established group. It worked very well.
homeschooling forum. But I've come to realize that, even though it was sad to
lose that sense of community, it really was better for many of us to venture
out of that AOL space and connect with the even-larger world homeschooling
world on the internet. Lots of really good things have happened because of so
many of us being shoved out of that nest <G>. The building of the National
Home Education Network is a good example.
But, still, I miss those good ol' days and I have to agree that we'd have
NEVER let a few hotheads drive us out of there. We had plenty of those along
the way, but it was bureaucracy and what appeared to be incompetence that did
us in. Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
attack?
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
I don't. I think AOL can behave stupidly without any kind of plan at all,
and often does. :)
Pam
----------
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: welcome new members and questions
Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002, 3:13 PM
But, still, I miss those good ol' days and I have to agree that we'd have
NEVER let a few hotheads drive us out of there. We had plenty of those along
the way, but it was bureaucracy and what appeared to be incompetence that
did
us in. Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
attack?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and often does. :)
Pam
----------
From: PSoroosh@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: welcome new members and questions
Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002, 3:13 PM
But, still, I miss those good ol' days and I have to agree that we'd have
NEVER let a few hotheads drive us out of there. We had plenty of those along
the way, but it was bureaucracy and what appeared to be incompetence that
did
us in. Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
attack?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Mowery Family
I still miss the old AOL message board days. That whole changeover period
was so disheartening, I was certain it was a plot to gain inside information
on homeschoolers. Kind of a round them up and shoot them down process.
I remember when everyone was posting goodbyes(after getting TOS offenses for
merely speaking their minds-myself included) and folks were posting lyrics
or poems - I searched the web for a song that matched my feelings. The only
one I found was from "Man from LaMancha" it still seems terribly
hokey/dorky/whatever, but that song really spoke to me.
The hokey sap,
sistakammi
was so disheartening, I was certain it was a plot to gain inside information
on homeschoolers. Kind of a round them up and shoot them down process.
I remember when everyone was posting goodbyes(after getting TOS offenses for
merely speaking their minds-myself included) and folks were posting lyrics
or poems - I searched the web for a song that matched my feelings. The only
one I found was from "Man from LaMancha" it still seems terribly
hokey/dorky/whatever, but that song really spoke to me.
The hokey sap,
sistakammi
----- Original Message -----
From: <PSoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: welcome new members and questions
> In a message dated 1/26/2002 9:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
>
> > It was more the behind the scenes take over of control that AOL did,
> > bringing in a hit team to make new rules and reorganize things without
the
> > input the users and moderators used to have, to pull posts arbitrarily
and
> > thus control what was being said about what was going on. I got the rare
> > privilege of being a volunteer Community whatever-it-was and got to
witness
> > it going down behind the scenes. It was a bizarre invasion of
incompetents
> > that, in retrospect, was undoubtedly a planned skillful attack to drive
off
> > the established group. It worked very well.
>
>
> I was, as you know, one of the most vocal people driven off from the AOL
> homeschooling forum. But I've come to realize that, even though it was sad
to
> lose that sense of community, it really was better for many of us to
venture
> out of that AOL space and connect with the even-larger world homeschooling
> world on the internet. Lots of really good things have happened because of
so
> many of us being shoved out of that nest <G>. The building of the National
> Home Education Network is a good example.
>
> But, still, I miss those good ol' days and I have to agree that we'd have
> NEVER let a few hotheads drive us out of there. We had plenty of those
along
> the way, but it was bureaucracy and what appeared to be incompetence that
did
> us in. Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
> attack?
>
> --pam
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Fetteroll
on 1/27/02 6:13 PM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:
people mentioned the same tactics had been used in a couple of other forums.
Rumor, not hard fact, but it does make sense.
When AOL first began it provided the space and told folks to create the type
of place their special interest group would use. So Trekkies created the
Star Trek area. Jews created the Jewish area. Homeschoolers created the
homeschooling area. And they got these great speciality areas built all for
the cost of free AOL access. It would have cost them millions to pay experts
to do it. But volunteers voluntarily put in oodles of hours for fun.
And then AOL decided it wanted a more uniform product, with more control
over content -- *probably* to make marketing it to advertisers easier. And
the folks running the areas weren't going to take that. (Which certainly
*was* a fact in the homeschooling area! I also remember Helen saying AOL put
a lot of pressure on her to accept AOL chosen advertisement in her HEM area.
AOL couldn't do the same to her since hers was a private area.) So AOL drove
them out.
I was kind of assuming part of the tactic was to use stupid and incompetent
people to drive the old guard out but looking back on it, they were asked so
many pointed clear questions over and over and the questions were ignored or
given irrelevant answers or just plain pulled. I don't think anyone could be
that naturally and consistently incompetent and stupid ;-)
That's my take on it. I didn't last behind the scenes until the end. Perhaps
someone else who was (Deb?) can offer a more insightful perspective.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful plannedYes. I don't know if it was talk behind the scenes or on the boards but some
> attack?
people mentioned the same tactics had been used in a couple of other forums.
Rumor, not hard fact, but it does make sense.
When AOL first began it provided the space and told folks to create the type
of place their special interest group would use. So Trekkies created the
Star Trek area. Jews created the Jewish area. Homeschoolers created the
homeschooling area. And they got these great speciality areas built all for
the cost of free AOL access. It would have cost them millions to pay experts
to do it. But volunteers voluntarily put in oodles of hours for fun.
And then AOL decided it wanted a more uniform product, with more control
over content -- *probably* to make marketing it to advertisers easier. And
the folks running the areas weren't going to take that. (Which certainly
*was* a fact in the homeschooling area! I also remember Helen saying AOL put
a lot of pressure on her to accept AOL chosen advertisement in her HEM area.
AOL couldn't do the same to her since hers was a private area.) So AOL drove
them out.
I was kind of assuming part of the tactic was to use stupid and incompetent
people to drive the old guard out but looking back on it, they were asked so
many pointed clear questions over and over and the questions were ignored or
given irrelevant answers or just plain pulled. I don't think anyone could be
that naturally and consistently incompetent and stupid ;-)
That's my take on it. I didn't last behind the scenes until the end. Perhaps
someone else who was (Deb?) can offer a more insightful perspective.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/28/02 5:00:28 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< > Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
Yes.
Well, not an attack, but a pre-planned undermining and restructuring.
<<And they got these great speciality areas built all for
the cost of free AOL access. It would have cost them millions to pay experts
to do it. But volunteers voluntarily put in oodles of hours for fun.>>
At first, when AOL was $2.90 an hour for the time you were logged in (people
used to download mail with "flashsessions" so they could only be on for
seconds at a time so they didn't pass their first five hours limit, I think
it was--$9.95 for the first five hours, and $2.90 an hour after??--then what
volunteers got was one hour free for each hour they worked. Some had
overhead accounts--totally free. So that was the cushy deal, they could stay
on as much as they wanted without counting.
Then the price went up to $20 and anyone in the world could stay on as long
as they wanted. So working for them for 30 hours a week used to seem to be
worth $90, and suddenly it was worth $2.50 or less. And about that time they
started wanting MORE work from volunteers--reports, and training sessions.
It's true that many of the same people brought that energy outside and made
it available to more people. And it is WONDERFUL that HEM is paying for
some very nice bulletin board space, because those don't come free. And it's
cool that yahoogroups exists, because before groups like this, people had to
go to newsgroups and those aren't very airy and sunny.
So even without the particulars of the meanness of the final year or so of
the AOL glory, when LOTS of homeschoolers got AOL just for the homeschooling
forum, and there was a forum for GWS (very small and quiet, because they
never were computer-busy folk) and HEM (NOT so small and quiet!) and it was
worth people's money to sign up just for homeschooling support, the change
would probably have come anyway.
Sandra
<< > Do you really think, in retrospect, that it was a skillful planned
> attack?Yes. >>
Yes.
Well, not an attack, but a pre-planned undermining and restructuring.
<<And they got these great speciality areas built all for
the cost of free AOL access. It would have cost them millions to pay experts
to do it. But volunteers voluntarily put in oodles of hours for fun.>>
At first, when AOL was $2.90 an hour for the time you were logged in (people
used to download mail with "flashsessions" so they could only be on for
seconds at a time so they didn't pass their first five hours limit, I think
it was--$9.95 for the first five hours, and $2.90 an hour after??--then what
volunteers got was one hour free for each hour they worked. Some had
overhead accounts--totally free. So that was the cushy deal, they could stay
on as much as they wanted without counting.
Then the price went up to $20 and anyone in the world could stay on as long
as they wanted. So working for them for 30 hours a week used to seem to be
worth $90, and suddenly it was worth $2.50 or less. And about that time they
started wanting MORE work from volunteers--reports, and training sessions.
It's true that many of the same people brought that energy outside and made
it available to more people. And it is WONDERFUL that HEM is paying for
some very nice bulletin board space, because those don't come free. And it's
cool that yahoogroups exists, because before groups like this, people had to
go to newsgroups and those aren't very airy and sunny.
So even without the particulars of the meanness of the final year or so of
the AOL glory, when LOTS of homeschoolers got AOL just for the homeschooling
forum, and there was a forum for GWS (very small and quiet, because they
never were computer-busy folk) and HEM (NOT so small and quiet!) and it was
worth people's money to sign up just for homeschooling support, the change
would probably have come anyway.
Sandra
Cindy
SandraDodd@... wrote:
Both Home-Ed with over 800 members and the UL with 300+ members use majordomo.
But Majordomo isn't for a non-computer savvy person or else you have to pay
a fee for it. I've just stepped up to be one of the admins for the Home-Ed
list and there's a much steeper learning curve there than at Yahoo! I've
been on a number of majordomo run lists - long before this web stuff came
along - so there was an alternative to the newsgroups. The newsgroups were
probably a very different culture from AOL but I thought they were great!
I think that Yahoo has been useful for homeschoolers. I also think it can
lead to a Balkanization of homeschoolers. It's so easy when the list isn't
just how you want it to go off in a huff and start a new list. (And Sandra
I don't think that's what you did here.)
One of the most important to my growth as an unschooler was the
Unschoolers Circle list. Debbie Mitchell ran it and it was an off-shoot of
the UL (unschooler's list) because some of the people on the UC were
very direct and asked pointed questions and called people on their BS
and were not welcome by the administrator of the UL. I was quite content
there for some time, if you can call it being content to be examining a lot of
beliefs about parening and living. Then a lot of new people came in and
decided that the old-guard weren't nice enough. In the ensuing debate the
list died. It's still around and there may be 5 posts a month but the
old-guard-call-it-like-they-see-it are gone. And what makes it all
so very interesting to me from a social understanding point of view is
two of the loudest (about things not being nice) were involved in the
troubles at unschooling.com - Lynda and Sarah. I don't know how to
stop it. Debbie had a strong bias towards free speech and didn't
interfere. I've been on the Internet for a long time and I'm a strong
advocate of free speech too. I also realize that everything is
impermanent. But it bothers me to see some of the same people repeating
the same behaviour again and again.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>There are also the majordomo or some other list service software run groups.
> It's true that many of the same people brought that energy outside and made
> it available to more people. And it is WONDERFUL that HEM is paying for
> some very nice bulletin board space, because those don't come free. And it's
> cool that yahoogroups exists, because before groups like this, people had to
> go to newsgroups and those aren't very airy and sunny.
>
Both Home-Ed with over 800 members and the UL with 300+ members use majordomo.
But Majordomo isn't for a non-computer savvy person or else you have to pay
a fee for it. I've just stepped up to be one of the admins for the Home-Ed
list and there's a much steeper learning curve there than at Yahoo! I've
been on a number of majordomo run lists - long before this web stuff came
along - so there was an alternative to the newsgroups. The newsgroups were
probably a very different culture from AOL but I thought they were great!
I think that Yahoo has been useful for homeschoolers. I also think it can
lead to a Balkanization of homeschoolers. It's so easy when the list isn't
just how you want it to go off in a huff and start a new list. (And Sandra
I don't think that's what you did here.)
One of the most important to my growth as an unschooler was the
Unschoolers Circle list. Debbie Mitchell ran it and it was an off-shoot of
the UL (unschooler's list) because some of the people on the UC were
very direct and asked pointed questions and called people on their BS
and were not welcome by the administrator of the UL. I was quite content
there for some time, if you can call it being content to be examining a lot of
beliefs about parening and living. Then a lot of new people came in and
decided that the old-guard weren't nice enough. In the ensuing debate the
list died. It's still around and there may be 5 posts a month but the
old-guard-call-it-like-they-see-it are gone. And what makes it all
so very interesting to me from a social understanding point of view is
two of the loudest (about things not being nice) were involved in the
troubles at unschooling.com - Lynda and Sarah. I don't know how to
stop it. Debbie had a strong bias towards free speech and didn't
interfere. I've been on the Internet for a long time and I'm a strong
advocate of free speech too. I also realize that everything is
impermanent. But it bothers me to see some of the same people repeating
the same behaviour again and again.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Earth Witch
> AndIt bothers me, too, perhaps because I have been
> what makes it all
> so very interesting to me from a social
> understanding point of view is
> two of the loudest (about things not being nice)
> were involved in the
> troubles at unschooling.com - Lynda and Sarah. I
> don't know how to
> stop it. Debbie had a strong bias towards free
> speech and didn't
> interfere. I've been on the Internet for a long
> time and I'm a strong
> advocate of free speech too. I also realize that
> everything is
> impermanent. But it bothers me to see some of the
> same people repeating
> the same behaviour again and again.
>
> --
>
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@...
>
targeted by them in the past. It seems as though they
never learn that maybe it is them. Why would they
have to keep starting new lists if it wasn't? I like
Sarah, she is a very caring person, but it is
unfortunate she often chooses being nice over being
honest and takes honesty as an attack. It is amusing
that they also have a tendency to find some one to
call a 'spy', especially when they admit to knowing
what is being discussed on this list.
Kitrina
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