halfshadow1

I did post this on AU but i also wanted Sandra's and other input too
that i value here.
When i am at a place like the hospital waiting room(my husband had a
stroke a week ago,i have been quiet)and Lukas is running around the
chairs and i glance over at the little girl sitting soooo nice with
her mommy or when i went across the street to see my friends new baby
and her grandson who is a few months younger than my Lukas, is sitting
playing a video game, I ask him what he's playing and he answers in a
mature way. Is it because he is in school and forced to behave and
answer? Are these kids that way because they are more mature and maybe
my son is "behind" or have they been threatned,hit or rewarded? Maybe
i need to be around more homeschoolers to calm my insecurities about
my son's "maturity" maybe this is what being free looks like in a child??
Does it?
What will help me to stop comparing my son to others?
Heather

Rebecca Boxwell

Hope your husband is feeling better!

These fears usually creep in for me if I have ventured into the shopping
mall. My children, snuggled against me or running at my feet, seem wild
- especially compared to the spaced out kids who are happy to be pushed
around, placid and quiet, in strollers. Sometimes I think I *really*
want a quiet child. I think that this has a lot to do with our societal
dislike of children and normal child behavior. We are conditioned to
believe that children should be quiet, controlled, unnoticed.

I have to remind myself that what I am told is good in children is not
what I like in adults. I don't want to hang out with people who are
bored (and boring), quiet, indifferent. I want to hang out with people
who care, think, want, question, and dream - people like my kids. So
while they make shopping difficult, they make life interesting. They
are fabulous kids, and I am confident that they will make fabulous
adults too. I am sure that at some point my kids will learn to be quiet
when necessary - but I am not sure that those other kinds of kids will
learn to be vivid life livers.

When I really doubt myself I read an article like "Raise Children with A
Wild Streak" which I have copied below.

--Rebecca

Raise children with a wild streak
Many 'ideal' students lack inventive, restless and self-reliant spirit

by: Mark Pruett

A new report from the American Academy of Pediatrics stresses the
importance of childhood playtime. It reinforces my own belief that many
young adults have been cheated by years of excessive schoolwork and
teamwork, too many extracurricular activities, and a straitjacketed
"just say no to anything risky" upbringing. I am convinced that modern
childhood generally does not build enough independence and thirst for
knowledge.

For the past few years I helped interview high school seniors seeking
scholarships to come to Appalachian State University. These applicants
come from all over the state. They play instruments and sports,
participate in church and charity, and work in diverse jobs.

They also display remarkably similar accomplishments. They are at the
top of their high school classes and possess generically good manners.
They lead teams, groups and clubs. They are smart, solid and
hardworking.

They might be surprised to learn that I, like many college professors,
yearn for rarer traits -- curiosity, passion, a wild streak. Yes,
teamwork and leadership skills will help your child to implement someone
else's ideas, and extensive extracurricular activities will foster
responsibility. What your child really needs, though, is an inventive,
self-reliant, restless spirit.
The key questions

For me, the heart-wrenching interview moment is when we ask these
teenagers what they would choose to do on a day spent alone. Many say
they never have the chance. Worse still, some have no answer at all.
This should disturb and sadden any parent. In the end, my scholarship
votes ride on two questions: Is this someone that I'd be excited to have
in my class? And is he or she open to being changed by my class? Class
rank and extracurricular activities are less important than genuine
individuality or enthusiasm. It matters not whether someone is bold or
shy, worldly or na�ve. Is there a flash of determination, a
streak of independence, a creative passion, an excited curiosity?

We need more students like the ones who leave after graduation to work
as missionaries or in the Peace Corps. More like the ones who start
successful businesses while in school. More like the ones who find the
courage to go overseas for a summer or a semester because they know
their own worlds are far too small.

Some students are team players and high achievers, but I'd trade them
for stubbornly creative iconoclasts. Some students as children were
taught to color inside the lines, watch Barney the purple dinosaur, and
always ask permission. We need students who found out what Crayons
tasted like, loved reading "The Cat in the Hat" and paid little
attention to rules -- students whose parents encouraged their children's
curiosity.


Something's missing

The irony is that many students begin to perceive late in college that
they've missed something along the way. They regret not taking risks
with difficult professors, unusual courses or semesters abroad. They
berate themselves by equating self-worth with grades, and they are
saddened by the realization that they have only glimpsed the breadth of
the university. They begin to grasp that their uncomfortable sense of
passivity has its roots in the highly controlled existence foisted on
them.

Parents: love, guide and support your children, but don't insulate them,
control them or let them be too busy. Independence, confidence and
creativity come from freedom, risk and a good measure of unstructured
solitude.

Encourage studying but make them play hooky, too -- partly to learn what
it feels like to be unprepared and partly to foster spontaneity,
irreverence and joy. Study chemistry together, then blow up a television
in the backyard.

Foster camaraderie and connectedness through group activities
(especially family ones), but be unyielding in your commitment to
teaching them to love doing things entirely on their own. Make each
child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her own once a week.

Surround them with books, not video games. Raise a garden or build a
deck together. Send them on solo trips.

However you choose to do it, give your children, their teachers and
society one of the greatest gifts of all: Help your kids become
creative, independent, curious, interesting people.



About the Author

Mark Pruett is an assistant professor in the Walker College of Business
at Appalachian State University.











On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:08:52 -0000, "halfshadow1"
<halfshadow1@...> said:
> I did post this on AU but i also wanted Sandra's and other input too
> that i value here.
> When i am at a place like the hospital waiting room(my husband had a
> stroke a week ago,i have been quiet)and Lukas is running around the
> chairs and i glance over at the little girl sitting soooo nice with
> her mommy or when i went across the street to see my friends new baby
> and her grandson who is a few months younger than my Lukas, is sitting
> playing a video game, I ask him what he's playing and he answers in a
> mature way. Is it because he is in school and forced to behave and
> answer? Are these kids that way because they are more mature and maybe
> my son is "behind" or have they been threatned,hit or rewarded? Maybe
> i need to be around more homeschoolers to calm my insecurities about
> my son's "maturity" maybe this is what being free looks like in a child??
> Does it?
> What will help me to stop comparing my son to others?
> Heather
>

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "halfshadow1"
<halfshadow1@...> wrote:
>
> I did post this on AU but i also wanted Sandra's and other input
too
> that i value here.
> When i am at a place like the hospital waiting room(my husband had
a
> stroke a week ago,i have been quiet)and Lukas is running around the
> chairs and i glance over at the little girl sitting soooo nice with
> her mommy or when i went across the street to see my friends new
baby
> and her grandson who is a few months younger than my Lukas, is
sitting
> playing a video game, I ask him what he's playing and he answers
in a
> mature way. Is it because he is in school and forced to behave and
> answer?

I think that you have to remember that we are not raising "well
behaved" kids we are rasing REAL kids- I think that it is so amazing
that kids have the choice to say no-

I know many adults that when someone says go here or do that or say
this in a group they automatically do it even if they would really
rather not.

These types of adults will not be our kids- our kids will say "no"

I think it is the fear that unschooling "might" not "work" but it
will not produce the "well behaved" kids it will produce kids who
can and will say what they want and think and feel.

Are these kids that way because they are more mature and maybe
> my son is "behind" or have they been threatned,hit or rewarded?
Maybe
> i need to be around more homeschoolers to calm my insecurities
about
> my son's "maturity" maybe this is what being free looks like in a
child??
> Does it?
> What will help me to stop comparing my son to others?
> Heather
>

Sometimes I get a niggling that says if you just make them then it
will be soooo much easier but then I see amazing things from them
and I smile and know it is worth it.

people assume that kids should be willing to "do" anything you tell
them- maybe less kids would walk off with strangers if they knew the
power of saying NO- that their NO matters

Otherwise kids are kids and it is ok to NOT answer someone and to
NOT go do something

I was outside with my girls and there was this little five yr old
was a block from his home and he walked right over to me and started
talking- I could have easily got him to my car or house and then
snatched him- I felt soooo bad for him- I kept asking if his mom
knew where he was- he said yes-

We might always compare but compare the good things too or look at
them another way

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca Boxwell"
<rebecca@...> wrote:
>
> Hope your husband is feeling better!
>
> These fears usually creep in for me if I have ventured into the
shopping
> mall. My children, snuggled against me or running at my feet, seem
wild
> - especially compared to the spaced out kids who are happy to be
pushed
> around, placid and quiet, in strollers. Sometimes I think I
*really*
> want a quiet child. I think that this has a lot to do with our
societal
> dislike of children and normal child behavior. We are conditioned
to
> believe that children should be quiet, controlled, unnoticed.
>
>


I am and always have been deeply suspicious of 'nice' children. They
seem to never say what's really on their mind. It's unnatural.

Sandra Dodd

Heather, I hope your husband will be okay.

-=-What will help me to stop comparing my son to others?-=-

It's not the comparison, it's the emotional feelings that go with it
that might be harmful.

I dont think people can stop comparing and analyzing. It's just part
of thought and language, and those are absolute parts of instinctive
human behavior.

-=-i need to be around more homeschoolers to calm my insecurities about
my son's "maturity" maybe this is what being free looks like in a
child??-=-

You didn't remind us of his age. I forget the details of who's who;
I'm sorry about that. Remind us, if it might help with people's
respnses, please.

Kirby moved and talked more than others his age when he was four,
five. When he was two and three he tended to sit with me. Then he
got brave and curious and wanted to touch and mess with things.
Friends and strangers commented sometimes, and we would try to keep
him reined in to the point that he wasn't disturbing other people
actually (not counting them being disturbed that we were letting him
pick things up in stores and such, because outside the store owner it
was okay with us--if store owners seemed uncomfortable I would hold
the thing and let him touch it while I held it, or something like that).

Other kids were being prevented.

The result I saw in some of the prevented-kids, when they got older,
those I knew longterm (and some I know still, in their young adult
lives) is that the spark of active curiosity was left cold. By the
time they were old enough for their parents to allow them to move and
touch, they didn't so much want to anymore. They were embarrassed,
because they didn't want to act like kids. A false-ish maturity was
on them. They were acting mature. Meanwhile, Kirby knew enough
about the world around him that he was *being* mature.

A comment was left on my blog this morning, not about Kirby but the
other two (who are 18 and 15) that said the teenagers in general (at
the L&L conferences in general) are an inspiration and source of wisdom.

Not often in this world do people describe teens as an inspiration
and a source of wisdom. Pretty cool!

When I went to get the exact words, there was a newer comment:
"Marty and Holly continue to be inspirations to me :)"

Wowie! Wow. That's very cool.

So here I am comparing my kids to other kids. I can't help it. But
I'm happy with them, and they'll be home at 10:30 tonight and I'll
tell them thanks for my cut of their glory.

My friends who kept their kids so close and quiet when they were
little did it, I think, in hopes of praise from others down the line,
in hopes of success for their children. I let mine explore and talk
and play in the same kind of hope.

We can't see or rightly guess the future. We can only look at other
people's lives and problems and behaviors and results and make our
own best choices in light of what we see and think.

When you compare, maybe look for the best things. Look at him as you
would an adult visitor from another culture. Moving around a room
isn't bad in a hospital. There are some times and places when it's
worse or better than others, and you can talk to your child about
that and find him places where he can be more active. As you help
him figure out where the better places are, he'll be learning to
think of that on his own.

Sandra







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Please provide the link to the Mark Pruett article.

-=-
Foster camaraderie and connectedness through group activities
(especially family ones), but be unyielding in your commitment to
teaching them to love doing things entirely on their own. Make each
child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her own once a
week.-=-

Lots of what he said was fun, but the paragraph above amused me. You
can't "teach" a child to love anything. You can't "teach" a child to
do things entirely on his own. But it's nice that he thinks parents
are so powerful. <g>


-=-Make each child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her
own once a week.-=-

I thought he said not to control your kids! <g> (He did.)

The slightest tweaks would've turned comical and wrong to useful and
good.

-=-be unyielding in your commitment to
teaching them to love doing things entirely on their own-=-

He might have said:
Give them resources, time, space and privacy to do things on their
own if they want to.

-=-Make each child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her
own once a week.-=-

Could be:
Encourage them to cook, if they're interested. Provide grocery money
and the kitchen to any child who wants to cook. Help him if he asks
for help and leave him alone if he'd prefer that.

That's a good article for parents to see, though, and I'd like to
link it at http://unschooling.blogspot.com

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thea LaCross

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca Boxwell" <rebecca@...>
wrote:

"I think that this has a lot to do with our societal
dislike of children and normal child behavior. We are conditioned to
believe that children should be quiet, controlled, unnoticed.

I have to remind myself that what I am told is good in children is not
what I like in adults. I don't want to hang out with people who are
bored (and boring), quiet, indifferent. I want to hang out with people
who care, think, want, question, and dream - people like my kids."

My son is older now and the issues of being physically quiet and
controlled in social settings are pretty much behind us. Now that
same social expectation that kids should be made to "behave" crops up
when he engages in conversation or verbal exchanges with many adults.

I sometimes feel uncomfortable when he doesn't just go along with what
some other adult says, as a way of smoothing an awkward social moment.
But he has a keen BS detector, and knows when someone is being
patronizing -- which, he says, grownups often are when they're talking
to kids who want to discuss and disagree with something they've said.
Lots of adults think a child who disagrees with them (however
politely) is being disrespectful, and they will go to great lengths to
force that child to agree with them, or in some way verbally roll over
and say 'uncle'.

But you're right - the world NEEDS people who 'care, think, want,
question and dream..."

Thea

Sandra Dodd

-=-Lots of adults think a child who disagrees with them (however
politely) is being disrespectful,-=-

That's true.

In light of various other recent incidents, though, I want to jump
off from here.

Sometimes, parents tell their kids that to disagree is okay, and
those kids go on to be disrespectful because their mom told them some
version of "if an adult isn't nice to you that's THEIR problem."

Same with kids in malls or stores. It's possible to be curious and
active and still not a holy terror. And it's possible for a mom to
think (it seems, by comments some have made on discussion lists like
this one) that as an unschooler she is forbidden (!?! yeah...) to
"control" her child.


It's somewhere between "let them do nothing at all" and "let them do
anything they damned well please."

I'm hanging around a lot with a 22 year old, schooled but curious
young man. We're discussing lots of serious topics. He feels he's
been deprived of lots of knowledge and ideas. (He's right.) He
wants to be more like Marty and Brett, he said (another unschooled
young man of his social acquaintance). I'm willing to help him.
But sometimes he wants to disagree in such a way that he implies (or
says) that his opinion is as valid as mine.

On some topics his opinion is way MORE valid than mine. On some they
might as well be equal. On some, he needs to shut entirely up. He
will *tell* me how it is about marriage and love. He will TELL me
that there's nothing more important than defying authority.

He wants to be more mature. He has a reputation for being wild and
immature. He earned it, but he'd like to shed it. I'm trying to
help. He said he didn't want to lose it completely. I'm trying to
persuade him that there are times to let loose and be a smart-aleck
and to take the jab if people leave themselves open to a snappy
comeback. As an example, I said that he wouldn't behave the same
way at a funeral as at a wedding (and the wedding reception would be
different again). He has never been to a funeral. He's been to two
weddings, one very informal in a park.

So he can't talk to me about funerals and weddings. He can't talk to
me about relationships in an equal way, but he has several times said
things like "Well I disagree" or "Marriage only affects those two
people and it's nobody else's business."

He himself is fairly well trashed by a divorce and remarriage of his
mom. He despises his step father. Yet his ideas are inflexible and
based on nothing real.

Sometimes when he disagrees with me he's being deeply disrespectful.
Sometimes when someone says they doubt my kids really are as I
describe them, that's being very disrespectful.
Sometimes when people say that if we cared about our kids we wouldn't
risk them by unschooling...

So please don't think that unschooling requires parents to encourage
children to do whatever they want to regardless of other people's
feelings. THAT would be disrespectful to others, to your kids, and
to those who've been advising for so many years.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

> When i am at a place like the hospital waiting room(my husband had a
> stroke a week ago,i have been quiet)and Lukas is running around the
> chairs and i glance over at the little girl sitting soooo nice with
> her mommy or

We were visiting a hospital not that long ago too and experienced
something similar. My youngest daughter just turned 6. We weren't
visiting anyone sick (sorry about your husband), we rode on a new
tramway that went from a neighborhood way below to the hospital up on
the hill.

The kids wanted to walk around the hospital so we did. At one point
we had to wait in a waiting room area for someone to use the
bathroom. Both my girls wanted to play, my oldest is 13. They took
one unoccupied loveseat and one chair and tried to steal each others
by sitting on each other. There was some running around and some
general wildness.

When they got too loud I just reminded them that there were people
trying to have conversations or read quietly or talk on the phone.
When they were running too much, I reminded them that they needed to
be careful going around corners and watching out for others needing
to get through. When my youngest was getting too wild, I physically
redirected her in a pleasant way.

I tried to gage how I was directing my kids to behave by the other
people using the same area. The old ladies sitting near us actually
seemed to enjoy watching my kids play all happy and fun and a little
rowdy. They were smiling, and watching my kids was bringing them
joy. There were a few other people that tried to ignore them and
moved elsewhere in the sitting area. When the sitting area got more
crowded the kids stayed more in one smaller space and were a little
quieter.

It wasn't an all or nothing deal, we weren't at a park, we were in a
hospital where people don't feel good and visitors might be worried
or sad, or maybe needing a lift in spirits, where others were doing
business or eating lunch or taking a brief moment to read.

I didn't have to tell my kids "no" or "behave", I just reminded them
when they were going too far or too much and helped guide them to
settle down a little.

Sandra Dodd

About comparisons:

The mail came, and there's a discount books catalog. One is called
How Do You Compare? 12 Simple Tests to Discover Hidden Truths About
Your Personality and Fascinating Facts About Everyone Else!



I though it was interesting, considering the question of the morning.
<G>

Sandra

halfshadow1

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Heather, I hope your husband will be okay.
>
> Yes! He will be okay! Thank so all of you who asked. He is going
back to work tonight. It was very scary,sad time and i am exhausted.
It was caused by high blood pressure. I have tried to get him to get
checked out for a long time. His whole face has been beet red but he
put it off until something like this happened.
> Sandra, I think that's a wonderful comment on your blog!
My son is 5yo. he's going to be 6 on Oct.5th.
I don't know how much freedom to allow him and when...
like, today at the doctors, the office waiting room was empty. So,
Lukas wanted to climb on the chairs i thought that would be okay, he
had his shoes off but then he wanted to move the chairs around and i
said the people want the chairs where they have them, they are not our
chairs. Then i thought well, if moves them back where they were what
harm is there? He did move them back. Was my thinking on that okay?
A man and woman entered the waiting room. The woman took that clip
board and sat writing and Lukas was maybe 7feet away from
her,pointing,doing his Goblin laugh....har har har at her and she gave
him a look. I asked him to come outside with me for a walk. I said to
him that the woman was trying to do some paperwork and that was
distracting her and not to nice to do. Then i was thinking to
myself,well, is it rude what he did or she should expect distractions
and ignore it? Was Lukas wrong? Was she? Me? I know if i was her i
would just do my paperwork, a kid fooling around? No big deal. I have
trouble with what the limits should be. I know you can help me Sandra <g>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=The woman took that clip
board and sat writing and Lukas was maybe 7feet away from
her,pointing,doing his Goblin laugh....har har har at her and she gave
him a look. I asked him to come outside with me for a walk. I said to
him that the woman was trying to do some paperwork and that was
distracting her and not to nice to do. Then i was thinking to
myself,well, is it rude what he did or she should expect distractions
and ignore it? Was Lukas wrong? Was she? Me? I know if i was her i
would just do my paperwork, a kid fooling around? No big deal. I have
trouble with what the limits should be. I know you can help me Sandra
-=-

The best answer to all the finest questions starts off "It depends."

Was he pointing at her and laughing at her!?
No good, if so.

I'd say that people are working there, and we can only be in the
places they're not using. (That's true of anywhere people are
working, and sometimes even moreso--there are places you can't be
even if they're not using them, like at auto repair shops, power
plants, libraries... Some places are private or dangerous.

The woman should expect distractions and ignore them, and then again
there's a line where normal distractions are abnormal. <g>

I think a limit might be fooling around quietly as long as it's not
bothering anyone. (Or outside in the daytime, LOUDLY, as long as
it's not bothering anyone.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

ooh! OOH!

And I compared myself to Kirby's housemate's dad. We made e-mail
contact for messages or kid emergencies. He told me he's going to
Austin at Thanksgiving in case we wanted to send anything.

I hadn't even thought of going to visit Kirby yet. I thought maybe i
was a bad mom!

Kirby doesn't want a visit yet, though. He said "We're still just
getting situatuated here," and that he was fine.

Sandra

halfshadow1

yes, he was pointing at her and doing that. My husband made a comment
earlier today when i was reading him some responses on behavior:He
said it seems to him that all these homeschoolers are people who were
abused as kids and are trying to make it right through their children.
He also said in regard to not making your kid behave,letting have
their freedom, that anyone can take a negative behavior and
turned,twist it to a positive thing. He has trouble with me not
*disciplining* Lukas.I would like some help with those statements he
said also,thanks--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=The woman took that clip
> board and sat writing and Lukas was maybe 7feet away from
> her,pointing,doing his Goblin laugh....har har har at her and she gave
> him a look. I asked him to come outside with me for a walk. I said to
> him that the woman was trying to do some paperwork and that was
> distracting her and not to nice to do. Then i was thinking to
> myself,well, is it rude what he did or she should expect distractions
> and ignore it? Was Lukas wrong? Was she? Me? I know if i was her i
> would just do my paperwork, a kid fooling around? No big deal. I have
> trouble with what the limits should be. I know you can help me Sandra
> -=-
>
> The best answer to all the finest questions starts off "It depends."
>
> Was he pointing at her and laughing at her!?
> No good, if so.
>
> I'd say that people are working there, and we can only be in the
> places they're not using. (That's true of anywhere people are
> working, and sometimes even moreso--there are places you can't be
> even if they're not using them, like at auto repair shops, power
> plants, libraries... Some places are private or dangerous.
>
> The woman should expect distractions and ignore them, and then again
> there's a line where normal distractions are abnormal. <g>
>
> I think a limit might be fooling around quietly as long as it's not
> bothering anyone. (Or outside in the daytime, LOUDLY, as long as
> it's not bothering anyone.)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

halfshadow1

<g> funny. I need some laughs. --- In [email protected],
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> ooh! OOH!
>
> And I compared myself to Kirby's housemate's dad. We made e-mail
> contact for messages or kid emergencies. He told me he's going to
> Austin at Thanksgiving in case we wanted to send anything.
>
> I hadn't even thought of going to visit Kirby yet. I thought maybe i
> was a bad mom!
>
> Kirby doesn't want a visit yet, though. He said "We're still just
> getting situatuated here," and that he was fine.
>
> Sandra
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-He
said it seems to him that all these homeschoolers are people who were
abused as kids and are trying to make it right through their children.
He also said in regard to not making your kid behave,letting have
their freedom, that anyone can take a negative behavior and
turned,twist it to a positive thing.-=-

Living in a reactionary mode is as bad as doing exactly what parents
want.

If you do every single thing they DON'T want, you're still living by
their rules, only in the negative/opposite.

It's not about twisting negative behavior and turning it to a
positive thing. If someone's doing that, it's not good.

it's about helping kids figure out what is appropriate behavior.
When they're too little or if they're not good at it, the parents
need to help.

If you're partners and not adversaries, then you share in behaviors.
If you're with your child somewhere and he's pissing someone off, you
have your share in that offense. Your team needs to behave
reasonably and thoughtfully.

When you tell your kids "No, stop..." it should be for real,
sensible, considered reasons, not for arbitrary purposes.

-=-g. He has trouble with me not
*disciplining* Lukas.I would like some help with those statements he
said also,thanks-=-

Maybe you could think of it not as "disciplining Lukas," but of
guiding him as you would a visitor from far, far away, or someone who
hasn't been on the planet long (which is exactly what he is, anyway--
the latter). Advise him. Help him. Remove him or distract him if
he's getting in a situation where he's not using good judgment.
You're on his team. Don't leave him hanging.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

I'm sorry, I meant my husband sees all the unschooling responses to
letting our kids talk back or not sit down and such as letting them do
what he sees as a negative behavior by kids or our kid and unschoolers
are turning into a positive. Unfortunally,my dh kind of wants or
thinks Lukas should listen and sit quietly. Do i make sense? Today, i
did take Lukas outside, we talked about the woman wanting to write and
how it was rude to point at her. and looked at a drainage plate. We
went out a few times.
My husband doesn't always think this way. He agrees he wants Lukas to
talk back,lol It's just when we are out somewhere,getting bussiness
taken care of that he wishes it.--- In [email protected],
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-He
> said it seems to him that all these homeschoolers are people who were
> abused as kids and are trying to make it right through their children.
> He also said in regard to not making your kid behave,letting have
> their freedom, that anyone can take a negative behavior and
> turned,twist it to a positive thing.-=-
>
> Living in a reactionary mode is as bad as doing exactly what parents
> want.
>
> If you do every single thing they DON'T want, you're still living by
> their rules, only in the negative/opposite.
>
> It's not about twisting negative behavior and turning it to a
> positive thing. If someone's doing that, it's not good.
>
> it's about helping kids figure out what is appropriate behavior.
> When they're too little or if they're not good at it, the parents
> need to help.
>
> If you're partners and not adversaries, then you share in behaviors.
> If you're with your child somewhere and he's pissing someone off, you
> have your share in that offense. Your team needs to behave
> reasonably and thoughtfully.
>
> When you tell your kids "No, stop..." it should be for real,
> sensible, considered reasons, not for arbitrary purposes.
>
> -=-g. He has trouble with me not
> *disciplining* Lukas.I would like some help with those statements he
> said also,thanks-=-
>
> Maybe you could think of it not as "disciplining Lukas," but of
> guiding him as you would a visitor from far, far away, or someone who
> hasn't been on the planet long (which is exactly what he is, anyway--
> the latter). Advise him. Help him. Remove him or distract him if
> he's getting in a situation where he's not using good judgment.
> You're on his team. Don't leave him hanging.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-My husband doesn't always think this way. He agrees he wants Lukas to
talk back,lol It's just when we are out somewhere,getting bussiness
taken care of that he wishes it.-=-

"Talk back" has a bad connotation.
Think of other ways to word what it is you both agree you'd like, and
that might help you clarify your concerns.


We didn't keep our kid from using "bad words." We did tell them
that there were places it wasn't okay to use them. They understood
that early on. (They're better at it than I am.)

If your child isn't able to even consider sitting still, then he's
not choosing to run around. Only when you have choices can you choose.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Boxwell

All-

-=halfshadow1@...> said:
yes, he was pointing at her and doing that. My husband made a comment
earlier today when i was reading him some responses on behavior:He
said it seems to him that all these homeschoolers are people who were
abused as kids and are trying to make it right through their children.
He also said in regard to not making your kid behave,letting have
their freedom, that anyone can take a negative behavior and
turned,twist it to a positive thing. He has trouble with me not
*disciplining* Lukas.=-

-=The woman took that clip
board and sat writing and Lukas was maybe 7feet away from
her,pointing,doing his Goblin laugh....har har har at her and she gave
him a look. I asked him to come outside with me for a walk. I said to
him that the woman was trying to do some paperwork and that was
distracting her and not to nice to do. Then i was thinking to
myself,well, is it rude what he did or she should expect distractions
and ignore it? Was Lukas wrong? Was she? Me? I know if i was her i
would just do my paperwork, a kid fooling around? No big deal. I have
trouble with what the limits should be.
-=-

I do not consider myself to be a permissive parent - in many ways I am
stricter than my peers. If I am going to spend all day everyday with my
kids we need to be able to get along. It can't be like the Wild Animal
Park over here. I try to treat my kids with the same respect and
compassion that I bring to my spouse, friends, and other adult
relationships. I ask myself how I would respond if it was another
adult. Certainly I wouldn't stand in the doctor's office and scream
"Sit the hell down and be quiet!" I might lean over and say "You seem
really antsy, wanna go get a snack? Or go for a walk?" I would not
allow my child to stand close to someone else, point and laugh - I do
not consider that to be respectful behavior. If things got to that
point I would tell my child that was not a polite way to behave, and
then I would guide him out of the area into a space where he had more
room to be himself. For us things wouldn't have gotten to that point -
I probably would have had him sitting with me talking, or looking
through magazines for pictures of cars or babies. I would have worked
hard to set up the appointment for a time when I had the best shot at
having good behavior. We would have eaten and used the bathroom before
coming inside. We would have arrived unhurried, and probably looked at
a few bugs or rocks on the way in to the building.

I often see parents who seem to be expecting more of their little ones
than they would of another adult. I think that it is unreasonable to
assume that in an interesting or novel environment kids aren't going to
want to touch anything, see anything, or ask any questions. I mean that
isn't how *I* behave! My husband would know better than to try to get
me to walk past a new yarn store without going inside to check it out.
I should know better than to try to get my kiddo to walk past a toy
store without wanting to go in. Just because my agenda doesn't involve
wanting to go to the toy store - that doesn't make his desire
unreasonable or invalid. If I had a friend visiting I would say things
like "its going to be a long drive, do you want to take a drink for the
car?" or "sometimes it is really cold in the city, let's bring your
coat." I try to say these things to my kids too, in the same way, out
of love, caring, because of my greater understanding of the whole
situation.

If my child wants to run around, I try to honor that impulse. Yet I do
not think that it is okay for him to run around during a wedding
ceremony, and I would not allow that behavior. I believe that it is
ultimately in my child's best interests to learn to move in the adult
world - so that he can maximize his opportunities to do the things he
finds interesting.

--Rebecca

Rebecca Boxwell

I agree that the article isn't *perfect*. It was originally published
in the Charlotte Observer, but can be found here:
http://www.homefires.com/articles/wild_streak.asp .

--Rebecca



On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:49:28 -0600, "Sandra Dodd"
<Sandra@...> said:
> Please provide the link to the Mark Pruett article.
>
> -=-
> Foster camaraderie and connectedness through group activities
> (especially family ones), but be unyielding in your commitment to
> teaching them to love doing things entirely on their own. Make each
> child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her own once a
> week.-=-
>
> Lots of what he said was fun, but the paragraph above amused me. You
> can't "teach" a child to love anything. You can't "teach" a child to
> do things entirely on his own. But it's nice that he thinks parents
> are so powerful. <g>
>
>
> -=-Make each child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her
> own once a week.-=-
>
> I thought he said not to control your kids! <g> (He did.)
>
> The slightest tweaks would've turned comical and wrong to useful and
> good.
>
> -=-be unyielding in your commitment to
> teaching them to love doing things entirely on their own-=-
>
> He might have said:
> Give them resources, time, space and privacy to do things on their
> own if they want to.
>
> -=-Make each child plan and cook the family's dinner on his or her
> own once a week.-=-
>
> Could be:
> Encourage them to cook, if they're interested. Provide grocery money
> and the kitchen to any child who wants to cook. Help him if he asks
> for help and leave him alone if he'd prefer that.
>
> That's a good article for parents to see, though, and I'd like to
> link it at http://unschooling.blogspot.com
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Angela Shaw

I've read many of the responses to this question and the one thing I have
not seen addressed is that sometimes it's just a personality issue. It
might look like some kids have learned to behave well in public when in
reality they are naturally quiet and reserved in places where they are not
comfortable.



It drives me a bit nuts really when I am complimented on how nicely and
quietly my children sit and wait in public places (like dr. offices) People
seem to be insinuating that I've trained them well and that I deserve credit
for it. I personally wish they'd loosen up more and enjoy themselves while
they have to wait somewhere instead of sitting anxiously. (that happy medium
where they can quietly have fun but not be rude to other people) On the
other hand, I find it even ruder for people to suggest that there is
something wrong with my children because they take a while to warm up in new
places and with new people. It certainly isn't because they have been
punished or shamed into it. It is just a personality thing. I guess we're
all looking at the world through our own paradigm but I try hard to put
myself in other people's shoes and see things from their angle so I can
understand where they are coming from.



When glancing at a situation you never really know what other people's
struggles are. Things may look easy on the outside and still be a struggle
to that family.



Angela Shaw

game-enthusiast@...







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

I've been thinking the same thing. Even IF a parent plans ahead,
tries to engage a child in a quiet activity, brings a snack, etc.,
that doesn't guarantee that a child will sit and be quiet in the
waiting room. My daughter will always choose to talk to anyone
that's there. If I see that the person is busy or obviously doesn't
not want to converse, I will talk to my daughter about it. She can
almost always be enticed by an elevator or escalator ride if it's
available :)

And I'm not sure why a 5-year old boy pointing and doing a pirate
laugh would be automatically considered rude. Maybe he was just
pretending, maybe he was trying to engage the lady or amuse her -
who knows? I might tell my child that most people don't like to be
pointed at, but I wouldn't really think it rude, and I don't think
most people would be offended. He's five.

I have never liked the phrase "talking back" or the word
disrespectful even, probably because they are most often used to
describe children who do not act in a way that makes situations easy
on adults.

-Christy M.

--- In [email protected], "Angela Shaw" <game-
enthusiast@...> wrote:
>
> I've read many of the responses to this question and the one thing
I have
> not seen addressed is that sometimes it's just a personality
issue. It
> might look like some kids have learned to behave well in public
when in
> reality they are naturally quiet and reserved in places where they
are not
> comfortable.
>
>
>
> It drives me a bit nuts really when I am complimented on how
nicely and
> quietly my children sit and wait in public places (like dr.
offices) People
> seem to be insinuating that I've trained them well and that I
deserve credit
> for it. I personally wish they'd loosen up more and enjoy
themselves while
> they have to wait somewhere instead of sitting anxiously. (that
happy medium
> where they can quietly have fun but not be rude to other people)
On the
> other hand, I find it even ruder for people to suggest that there
is
> something wrong with my children because they take a while to warm
up in new
> places and with new people. It certainly isn't because they have
been
> punished or shamed into it. It is just a personality thing. I
guess we're
> all looking at the world through our own paradigm but I try hard
to put
> myself in other people's shoes and see things from their angle so
I can
> understand where they are coming from.
>
>
>
> When glancing at a situation you never really know what other
people's
> struggles are. Things may look easy on the outside and still be a
struggle
> to that family.
>
>
>
> Angela Shaw
>
> game-enthusiast@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

halfshadow1

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca Boxwell" <rebecca@...>
wrote:
>

For us things wouldn't have gotten to that point -
> I probably would have had him sitting with me talking, or looking
> through magazines for pictures of cars or babies. I would have worked
> hard to set up the appointment for a time when I had the best shot at
> having good behavior. We would have eaten and used the bathroom before
> coming inside. We would have arrived unhurried, and probably looked at
> a few bugs or rocks on the way in to the building.
I'd like to respond to this. We have done all that,ate,looked,talked
about and at stuff but it is easier said then done to say "It would
not have gotten to that point" maybe with your kids that's true but
for my son who is always "ansty" highly impulsive, spirited...who
doesn't stop moving until he's sleeping, that these things happen in
an instant!
He could be sitting in the chair(which he was) and i turn my head for
a second and he's standing up pointing at the woman doing his goblin
laugh. In just an instant.

Sandra Dodd

-=-And I'm not sure why a 5-year old boy pointing and doing a pirate
laugh would be automatically considered rude.-=-

Pointing at kids he's playing with and laughing at them might be part
of the game.

A woman at work with a clipboard wasn't playing with him.

It's always rude to laugh right at someone.
It's nearly always rude to point at someone.

It's worth letting kids know that. If they point because they have
no idea it's rude, the parents have failed to provide information.
If they laugh at people because they have no idea it's rude, the
parents have failed to provide information.

Should unschoolers be exempt from social expectations like that?
From courtesy or consideration or thoughtfulness?
There aren't really any exemptions.

Well, there are--but to claim an exemption, one must also give up
hope of being taken seriously and being given serious respect and
opportunities.

-=-Maybe he was just
pretending, maybe he was trying to engage the lady or amuse her -
who knows?-=-

It's only playing if everyone's playing, as we always told our kids
when they tried to shoot people who weren't in their game, or make
fun of someone who really wasn't in the mood. It's only fun if
everyone's having fun.

-=- I might tell my child that most people don't like to be
pointed at, but I wouldn't really think it rude, and I don't think
most people would be offended. He's five. -=-

Right after five comes six. When should a parent advise a child on
expectations? If the parent chooses not to, will it be offensive if
a seven year old points at you in public and laughs? What if he's
twelve? Fifteen?

The question was about whether the mom should say something and where
the line might be. To say "There shouldn't be a line; others
shouldn't be offended" isn't helpful in considering where the line
might be, is it?

-=-I have never liked the phrase "talking back" or the word
disrespectful even, probably because they are most often used to
describe children who do not act in a way that makes situations easy
on adults. -=

"Talking back" seems to have to do with "speak when spoken to" and
"seen but not heard" traditions, and I have no interest in that.

We've always been as respectful of our children as we could be, and
it has caused them to be pretty respectful of others. Holly had a
quickie meltdown when she was in pain from an ear ache, and
exhausted, and feeling crowded, she said. She told me about it today
at lunch; it happened when she was at a conference and I wasn't. But
she talked about people who helped her out, and she was remorseful
about having not having had the wherewithal to be more gentle and
patient. And when the tea tree oil and the Motrin (thank you to moms
who aided her!) took effect and she was able to stand up and move
again, after about an hour, she said, she went and did better.

Respect is regard. Respect is consideration. Respect is
acknowledgement and recognition.
In my life at this point respect and disrespect aren't words about
children, so I don't have the association of that with "talking
back." I want my children to be respectable. For others to respect
them, they need to be respectful of others.

Maybe that's what one gives away when one consciously chooses to
disregard etiquette and tradition: respectability.

Years ago, when my kids were pretty young, I wrote about how it was
going with our giving them lots of respect. That's here:
http://sandradodd.com/respect

A little part of that:
***********'

I really believe unschooling works best when parents trust a child's
personhood, his intelligence, his instincts, his potential to be
mature and calm. Take any of that away, and the child becomes smaller
and powerless to some degree.

Give them power and respect, and they become respected and powerful.

*******************

To encourage irritating behavior doesn't help his potential to be
mature and calm. It takes it away and makes him smaller.

Sandra

Christy Mahoney

Of course we should provide information. It's the expectations that
I wonder about. There can often be a very large gap between hearing
that something is rude and actually understanding it, especially
with young, impulsive children.

The OP said that she did take her son away and tell him that what he
did was rude. I was trying to say that it didn't have to be a huge
deal. We can give information and move on, and I think that most
people wouldn't think too much of the incident from a young child.
It can be a long process with some children to figure out what is
inappropriate and think before doing.

>
> It's only playing if everyone's playing, as we always told our
kids
> when they tried to shoot people who weren't in their game, or
make
> fun of someone who really wasn't in the mood. It's only fun if
> everyone's having fun.

I meant that perhaps the intent of the child was playful instead of
rude. Sometimes children try to engage people in odd ways as they
are trying to figure out social nuances. You don't always know how
a person will respond. My daughter has been confused in the past
when her grampa laughs at something she does and hugs her, but then
a stranger looks at her like she did something really strange.

Christy M.

Meghan Anderson-Coates

***************
It might look like some kids have learned to behave well in public when in
reality they are naturally quiet and reserved in places where they are not
comfortable.

***************

This is Tamzin totally! Even when she was a toddler, she would just want to sit quietly and observe people. If someone talked to her, she would just look at them and then turn her head into me. She still doesn't like new situations and it's hard for her to walk into a situation where she doesn't know anyone. I've role played with her and given her 'script' ideas for what to say/do, but unless she knows at least one other person, she's really uncomfortable. She won't approach anyone new by herself. It's still just too scary for her.
She's always been a deep thinker and I think her 'quiet/stillness' is an intregal part of that. I'm sure that's also why she's never been very comfortable in a large group setting (although that's changing now).
I remember when she was about 18 months, I looked after a friends kiddo for a couple of hours and it was a shock to the system (& my house LOL). Any surface that had anything on top of it at her level was cleared in one huge sweeping movement <g>. Tamzin would go pick stuff up and look at it or play with it, but she never just cleared a table top for the hell of it (she could've, but she just never did). I remember Tamzin just watching Eva with a puzzled look, like 'why would you want to do that?'. I kind of expected Tamzin to experiment with the concept either while Eva was there or maybe later on, but she never did.
So, yes, people would comment on how 'well behaved' she was (especially when she was smaller).



Meghan

"Everything Is Possible"
~ Deepak Chopra


---------------------------------
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]