Sibling rivalry
cecegary
I have a neighbor with two boys, ages 6 and 3, who claims her children
never fight/argue/squabble. Ever. I've seen them at play, and they are
definitely very nice boys, but they have their moments with the
neighborhood kids, so I have my doubts about her claim. However, it's
not the claim in and of itself that bothers me, it was her statements
that, "My husband has always told J [the older boy] that it was his job
to protect M, so he's never picked on him."
Now, my first response to this (in my head only) was, "Now don't go
patting yourself on the back for what you think is good parenting, when
it probably has more to do with individual personalities than anything
else." But, truthfully, I've been thinking about her statement ever
since, and have been trying to really sort out whether or not I think
it's a good idea for her to give this "job" to her older son (not that
I can do anything about it, but I think about it nonetheless). In my
gut it doesn't sit right, but then I think maybe if he feels like
the "almighty protector" it could change his view of his sibling, and
reduce the rivalry.
At any rate, I keep going round and round about this to myself, and I
can't seem to really pull my thoughts together on it, so I thought I'd
offer it up to the group to get your responses.
Chelsea
never fight/argue/squabble. Ever. I've seen them at play, and they are
definitely very nice boys, but they have their moments with the
neighborhood kids, so I have my doubts about her claim. However, it's
not the claim in and of itself that bothers me, it was her statements
that, "My husband has always told J [the older boy] that it was his job
to protect M, so he's never picked on him."
Now, my first response to this (in my head only) was, "Now don't go
patting yourself on the back for what you think is good parenting, when
it probably has more to do with individual personalities than anything
else." But, truthfully, I've been thinking about her statement ever
since, and have been trying to really sort out whether or not I think
it's a good idea for her to give this "job" to her older son (not that
I can do anything about it, but I think about it nonetheless). In my
gut it doesn't sit right, but then I think maybe if he feels like
the "almighty protector" it could change his view of his sibling, and
reduce the rivalry.
At any rate, I keep going round and round about this to myself, and I
can't seem to really pull my thoughts together on it, so I thought I'd
offer it up to the group to get your responses.
Chelsea
Sandra Dodd
-=I have a neighbor with two boys, ages 6 and 3, who claims her children
never fight/argue/squabble. Ever. I've seen them at play, and they are
definitely very nice boys, but they have their moments with the
neighborhood kids, so I have my doubts about her claim-=-
I know a family with five kids and the kids didn't argue or
squabble. It was interesting. They're grown now and all still very
friendly with each other. Their mom is very amiable with everyone,
too. Even when she gets cranky, she doesn't get angry or yell,
ever. I've known her for over 20 years.
The dad was an insane old hippie I could hardly stand and he was just
the opposite. Maybe the kids lucked out and got their mom's
disposition, and had their dad as a beacon of how not to be.
They didn't fight with other kids, either; mine hung out with them
quite a bit.
They didn't go to school.
-=-Now, my first response to this (in my head only) was, "Now don't go
patting yourself on the back for what you think is good parenting, when
it probably has more to do with individual personalities than anything
else." -=-
It's probably some and some.
Another family we know had "an easy baby" (girl) while I had Kirby,
who was a busy, noisy, curious, active kid.
Then they had a LOUD, sneaky, bully of a little girl about the time I
had Marty, who was Mr. Cool and Calm.
The mom (who was over here last week; we're still friends) told me
then, when our #2 kids were about a year old, that she and her
husband used to talk about what bad parents Keith and I were to have
a kid like Kirby, but now that she had seen round two, she knew they
had just totally lucked out with their first girl.
-=-have been trying to really sort out whether or not I think
it's a good idea for her to give this "job" to her older son-=-
My mom used to tell me to take care of my sister, and once she got
hurt through no fault of mine. I was five and she was two. I felt
like it was my fault for a long time, but thinking back later I was
angry with my mom for putting me in that position. My sister fell
and cut the inside of the roof of her mouth on the edge of a big
metal wash tub. She had been standing backwards in a stroller,
bouncing up and down. I didn't know that was really dangerous. My
mom was in the house. We were playing ocean, with a tub of water.
The stroller fell and she hit her mouth and there was blood to her
feet and my mom called a cab and my sister had stitches inside her
mouth and was in the hospital like four days. I was left with an
aunt and uncle who had not a single toy, who didn't know what to do
with me, but they had an upstairs apartment with a porch swing where
I would sit and think I might have killed my sister.
Still, terrible stories aside, if parents can encourage kids to watch
out for each other's safety, that's not awful. But watching out for
ANYone's safety makes even more sense to me. My kids remind me when
I'm doing something that might not be safe. They make
recommendations of a safer place to put the ladder or whatever, if
they notice.
-=-At any rate, I keep going round and round about this to myself, and I
can't seem to really pull my thoughts together on it, so I thought I'd
offer it up to the group to get your responses.
-=-
I think "He needs to feel safe at home" works at home, and individual
little "keep an eye on him" or "try to remember to get him to eat and
drink something" as they go out together outside the house might
help. After a while they'll think those things on their own.
Just recently Marty and a friend took Holly and her friend to a
concert in another city. Holly was sick, and I asked the other three
to be patient with her and kinda treat her like a baby. They
understood (the older ones did, anyway). And by midday she was
feeling much better anyway.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
never fight/argue/squabble. Ever. I've seen them at play, and they are
definitely very nice boys, but they have their moments with the
neighborhood kids, so I have my doubts about her claim-=-
I know a family with five kids and the kids didn't argue or
squabble. It was interesting. They're grown now and all still very
friendly with each other. Their mom is very amiable with everyone,
too. Even when she gets cranky, she doesn't get angry or yell,
ever. I've known her for over 20 years.
The dad was an insane old hippie I could hardly stand and he was just
the opposite. Maybe the kids lucked out and got their mom's
disposition, and had their dad as a beacon of how not to be.
They didn't fight with other kids, either; mine hung out with them
quite a bit.
They didn't go to school.
-=-Now, my first response to this (in my head only) was, "Now don't go
patting yourself on the back for what you think is good parenting, when
it probably has more to do with individual personalities than anything
else." -=-
It's probably some and some.
Another family we know had "an easy baby" (girl) while I had Kirby,
who was a busy, noisy, curious, active kid.
Then they had a LOUD, sneaky, bully of a little girl about the time I
had Marty, who was Mr. Cool and Calm.
The mom (who was over here last week; we're still friends) told me
then, when our #2 kids were about a year old, that she and her
husband used to talk about what bad parents Keith and I were to have
a kid like Kirby, but now that she had seen round two, she knew they
had just totally lucked out with their first girl.
-=-have been trying to really sort out whether or not I think
it's a good idea for her to give this "job" to her older son-=-
My mom used to tell me to take care of my sister, and once she got
hurt through no fault of mine. I was five and she was two. I felt
like it was my fault for a long time, but thinking back later I was
angry with my mom for putting me in that position. My sister fell
and cut the inside of the roof of her mouth on the edge of a big
metal wash tub. She had been standing backwards in a stroller,
bouncing up and down. I didn't know that was really dangerous. My
mom was in the house. We were playing ocean, with a tub of water.
The stroller fell and she hit her mouth and there was blood to her
feet and my mom called a cab and my sister had stitches inside her
mouth and was in the hospital like four days. I was left with an
aunt and uncle who had not a single toy, who didn't know what to do
with me, but they had an upstairs apartment with a porch swing where
I would sit and think I might have killed my sister.
Still, terrible stories aside, if parents can encourage kids to watch
out for each other's safety, that's not awful. But watching out for
ANYone's safety makes even more sense to me. My kids remind me when
I'm doing something that might not be safe. They make
recommendations of a safer place to put the ladder or whatever, if
they notice.
-=-At any rate, I keep going round and round about this to myself, and I
can't seem to really pull my thoughts together on it, so I thought I'd
offer it up to the group to get your responses.
-=-
I think "He needs to feel safe at home" works at home, and individual
little "keep an eye on him" or "try to remember to get him to eat and
drink something" as they go out together outside the house might
help. After a while they'll think those things on their own.
Just recently Marty and a friend took Holly and her friend to a
concert in another city. Holly was sick, and I asked the other three
to be patient with her and kinda treat her like a baby. They
understood (the older ones did, anyway). And by midday she was
feeling much better anyway.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela Shaw
> I have a neighbor with two boys, ages 6 and 3, who claims her childrenWhile saying "never" seems like an exaggeration to me, I too have children
> never fight/argue/squabble.
who hardly every fight/argue/squabble with each other. I think it is in
part their personalities, but mostly I think it is because I made it a VERY
high priority to stay close by and help them to sort out their differences
from the time they were small. (they are 12 and 10 now)
When they were frustrated and couldn't articulate their feelings to each
other, I helped them to sort it out and communicate it to each other in a
non-blaming way and we usually found a win/win solution. Now it is rare
that they cannot work something out on their own. My youngest has been
dealing with an elevated anxiety level for the last several months which
seems to run in the family and one of the ways she deals with it is to talk
a LOT. (which makes it harder for her to listen) That has added a new level
of frustration to our home and yet MOST of the time they still deal very
kindly with each other.
There have been a couple days this week where for a part of the day they
have been frustrated with each other and have had more difficulty than
typical. Sometimes it actually throws me for a loop because I so rarely have
to deal with discord between them. One of the days when they got frustrated
with each other, they were playing nicely together later and really having
fun, and I made a point to ask them if life is better because they have a
sibling most of the time and if they thought our home would be a lot less
interesting and fun if they did not have each other. They agreed and even
agreed that they loved each other and would not want to be without each
other.
It's hard at times but it's been so worth it to invest the time I have in
their relationships with each other. And while I do ask them to look out
for each other, I would never make them be responsible for each other. That
is my job.
Angela Shaw
game-enthusiast@...
Sandra Dodd
-=When they were frustrated and couldn't articulate their feelings to
each
other, I helped them to sort it out and communicate it to each other
in a
non-blaming way and we usually found a win/win solution. Now it is rare
that they cannot work something out on their own.-=-
Similar here.
And I've seen my kids solve other kids' squabbles, too, with the same
tools we used here. And none of it was the scripted kind of "active
listening" stuff that psychologists used to recommend. It was real
advice and real empathy and practical suggestions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
each
other, I helped them to sort it out and communicate it to each other
in a
non-blaming way and we usually found a win/win solution. Now it is rare
that they cannot work something out on their own.-=-
Similar here.
And I've seen my kids solve other kids' squabbles, too, with the same
tools we used here. And none of it was the scripted kind of "active
listening" stuff that psychologists used to recommend. It was real
advice and real empathy and practical suggestions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan
> -=When they were frustrated and couldn't articulate their feelings toI would *love* to hear more on this topic... the win/win thing. I've
> each other, I helped them to sort it out and communicate it to each other
> in a non-blaming way and we usually found a win/win solution. Now it is rare
> that they cannot work something out on their own.-=-
>
> Similar here.
>
> And I've seen my kids solve other kids' squabbles, too, with the same
> tools we used here. And none of it was the scripted kind of "active
> listening" stuff that psychologists used to recommend. It was real
> advice and real empathy and practical suggestions.
been thinking about that a lot and trying to see the win/win solution
in our daily lives. It's been difficult when the kids are squabbling.
What to do, for instance, when they both want to use the computer /
sit in the a particular chair / play with a toy at the same time and
no, they don't want to share at that moment and aren't interested in
finding an alternative activity/chair/toy. Maybe it's a (frequent)
coincidence of having the same desire/need at the exact same time, but
sometimes it appears that like they want and item /choose to do a
thing because the other showed interest.
It seems there are times when it ends up with someone upset no matter
how I try to approach it or what suggestions/empathy I offer. It feels
like someone "wins" and the other doesn't. Even if they agree to take
turns it comes down to who gets to go first... and then that's another
squabble... argh. What most parents I know say when this situation
happens is "if you can't stop arguing about it then NO ONE gets to do
it" and/or "stop fighting over it or I'll take it away from both of
you". Of course, that is *not* what I want to say, but my brain seems
to falter after discarding that bit of parenting unwisdom and fails to
find a good alternative approach... ideas about what tools you use to
handle sibling rivalry would be much appreciated.
~ Susan
diana jenner
On 8/10/07, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
two ;)
It's amazing to hear such wisdom come out of their mouths, not as
regurgitation, as real knowledge of what works and what feels good and what
is win/win/win.
My favorite example is when Marty witnessed my struggles with Hayden's
angst. We went out of earshot and he shifted my perspective by sharing his
own stories and perspective: This is probably how it feels... This is what
might work... and supportive talk of "you already know, I'm just reminding
you." I still use his "You are the alpha AND the omega" comment as an
internal mantra. He meant is as if I have the solutions to the problems,
even (maybe especially) the ones I feel are caused by my own
thoughts/behaviors.
I know that this comes from a non-ageist perspective -- he doesn't feel he
has to talk to be a certain way because "I'm the adult" it's really person
to person communication, because that's how he's been treated his whole
life.
Not examples of perfection by any means, true examples of real human beings
who are open and honest and free to be themselves -- those Dodd kids!! Yeah,
it's what I hold in my heart as a reminder of why I've made a conscious
choice to live this way.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And I've seen my kids solve other kids' squabbles, too, with the sameI've been the joyful recipient of this kind of *coaching* from a Dodd Kid or
> tools we used here. And none of it was the scripted kind of "active
> listening" stuff that psychologists used to recommend. It was real
> advice and real empathy and practical suggestions.
>
two ;)
It's amazing to hear such wisdom come out of their mouths, not as
regurgitation, as real knowledge of what works and what feels good and what
is win/win/win.
My favorite example is when Marty witnessed my struggles with Hayden's
angst. We went out of earshot and he shifted my perspective by sharing his
own stories and perspective: This is probably how it feels... This is what
might work... and supportive talk of "you already know, I'm just reminding
you." I still use his "You are the alpha AND the omega" comment as an
internal mantra. He meant is as if I have the solutions to the problems,
even (maybe especially) the ones I feel are caused by my own
thoughts/behaviors.
I know that this comes from a non-ageist perspective -- he doesn't feel he
has to talk to be a certain way because "I'm the adult" it's really person
to person communication, because that's how he's been treated his whole
life.
Not examples of perfection by any means, true examples of real human beings
who are open and honest and free to be themselves -- those Dodd kids!! Yeah,
it's what I hold in my heart as a reminder of why I've made a conscious
choice to live this way.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
> Maybe it's a (frequent)You the mom can do something cool with the other one, maybe. YOU
> coincidence of having the same desire/need at the exact same time, but
> sometimes it appears that like they want and item /choose to do a
> thing because the other showed interest.
find something that seems interesting that the kid might want to
share with you, preferably out of earshot or sight of the computer
game or whatever it is.
Here are some pre-collected ideas about helping kids share:
http://sandradodd.com/sharing
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christy Mahoney
> I know a family with five kids and the kids didn't argue orvery
> squabble. It was interesting. They're grown now and all still
> friendly with each other. Their mom is very amiable with everyone,I was one of six kids, and we really did not argue either. I don't
> too. Even when she gets cranky, she doesn't get angry or yell,
> ever. I've known her for over 20 years.
>
remember my mom getting angry or yelling, but was that because we
didn't argue or did we not argue because she didn't yell? :) I have
no idea, but I struggle a lot in dealing with arguments between my
daughters. To tell you the truth, I just don't understand why they
pick on each other when they are bored. I don't know if I ever will
understand it. They are so unlike me in personality. My older dd,
who's 12 now, is so quickly angered by so many things, minor
annoyances to me, that she goes straight to yelling at her little
sister. They are both so much more restless than me as well. As a
kid, I just don't remember being bored. I was always happy to color
or read or just mess about in the yard.
I get angry so much easier now as a parent than I ever used to. I
have such a hard time when my girls won't just stop something that's
bothering someone else. I never thought that being a mom would be
like this, I guess because my mom made it seem so easy. I don't
remember her ever having to ask us to be nicer. It's really sad to me
that my girls aren't nicer, and that's hard to admit.
-Christy
Sandra Dodd
-=I don't
remember her ever having to ask us to be nicer. It's really sad to me
that my girls aren't nicer, and that's hard to admit.-=-
Maybe if you say it just like that to each of them, separately, and
ask what they think you could do to help, they'll have good ideas.
Or maybe they'll think more carefully before being reactionary or
antagonistic because they will want to make you more comfortable.
It's worth a try.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
remember her ever having to ask us to be nicer. It's really sad to me
that my girls aren't nicer, and that's hard to admit.-=-
Maybe if you say it just like that to each of them, separately, and
ask what they think you could do to help, they'll have good ideas.
Or maybe they'll think more carefully before being reactionary or
antagonistic because they will want to make you more comfortable.
It's worth a try.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela Shaw
> I would *love* to hear more on this topic... the win/win thing. I'veHow old are your children? I have two daughters who are now 10 and 12.
> been thinking about that a lot and trying to see the win/win solution
> in our daily lives. It's been difficult when the kids are squabbling.
> What to do, for instance, when they both want to use the computer /
> sit in the a particular chair / play with a toy at the same time and
> no, they don't want to share at that moment and aren't interested in
> finding an alternative activity/chair/toy.
When they were little we pretty much bought 2 of everything, even the same
clothes. It was easier that way because they shared most of the same
interests.
WRT computers, well, we have four of them (in one room and more in the
basement, but I'm married to a techie) and right now we are all in the same
room talking to each other and playing on our own pcs. Let's see, dd's are
both playing on on-line role playing type of game where they are interacting
with each other on-line as well as in person. Dh is doing something for
work. (and fixing the two printers in between that I seem to have broke this
week while he was out of town) I'm checking email and listening a lot.
One thing I did if we had 1 particular game that was the coveted game(Often
we could play them on two pc's at once because they are connected and
sometimes we copied them for our own use) was to spend some 1 on 1 time with
the child who had to wait. My girls love to spend time with me like that.
We often play board games or read together or even just watch tv together.
But also, they do enjoy sitting with each other, watching each other play a
new game, even if they wish they were the one playing.
But the thing I think that has always made the biggest difference is that
they both know that their wants and needs are important to me and if I can,
I will find a way to make whatever they want happen. It's always been that
way. If I take the time to think creatively, I can usually make it happen.
Angela
cecegary
Sandra said:
<<My mom used to tell me to take care of my sister, and once she got
hurt through no fault of mine. I was five and she was two. I felt
like it was my fault for a long time, but thinking back later I was
angry with my mom for putting me in that position. >>
Yes. This was my trouble with this approach. It seemed like too much,
and inappropriate, responsibility for a child. My husband, the oldest
of four boys, used to get into trouble if any of the boys did
something wrong becuase "he should have known better than to let them
do it." I've always thought that was extremely unfair, and I guess
the whole "take care of your younger sibling" thing just smacked of
that to me. I do agree, however, with what more than one of you said
about the principle of watching out for the care and safety of
siblings/others. This seems a lot more reasonable than making one
person the "protector" and one (or more) person(s) the "protected."
Angela said:
<<I think it is in part their personalities, but mostly I think it is
because I made it a VERY high priority to stay close by and help them
to sort out their differences from the time they were small. >>
See, I just don't agree with this. I mean I agree with staying close
by and helping kids sort out differences....I have done the exact
same thing, and have been utterly consistent, yet my children
sometimes fight. I mean they can go from "Would you help me, please?"
to each other, to (the younger one usually) screaming and smacking
the older one within minutes. Granted, it's usually when they're
tired, but not always. More often than not, it's when I have to walk
out of the room to do something. They rarely, if ever (I really can't
recall a time), will do this if I am playing with them. And, if I can
stop what I'm doing, I do take one of them away from the situation
and find something to do with them that they enjoy, which works to
resolve that particular situation, but I don't know that it helps
them to adopt the principle of kindness.
I've also seen families who certainly wouldn't win any parenting
awards in this group with children who behave very nicely with each
other. So, I just can't attribute (at least not "mostly") a lack of
sibling rivaly to "good parenting." I think there are many, heavier-
weighing, factors.
For example, my youngest two kids are both adopted. My youngest lived
in an orphanage before living with us. Even though she didn't live
there all that long, as you all probably know, babies' brains
get "wired" into certain patterns right from the beginning. More
specifically, when their basic needs are not being met, and they
haven't bonded with their birth mother, that sets off certain
responses in their brain that affects their overall development and
personality. I think this has A LOT to do with how my kids respond to
each other. This is something I can work on with good parenting
skills, but I don't think they respond to each other due to any kind
of lack of good parenting skills. I guess this is what offended me
about my neighbor's comment. It was as if she was saying to me, "Your
kids wouldn't fight, too, if you were a better parent." Of course I
know she wasn't saying this, but like Sandra's friends with the same-
age babies as her own, you know that's what they're thinking.
Ok, now I'm just whining. I know that the why doesn't really matter
one whit. I did, however, clarify my thoughts (thanks, everyone, for
your help with this), and I will, now, encourage my children to watch
out for the care and safety of each other instead of just keeping
that to myself. This, along with the discussion of principles vs.
rules, brought about some really good suggestions that I have
incorporated into my approach with the rivalry. Maybe it'll help.
Chelsea
<<My mom used to tell me to take care of my sister, and once she got
hurt through no fault of mine. I was five and she was two. I felt
like it was my fault for a long time, but thinking back later I was
angry with my mom for putting me in that position. >>
Yes. This was my trouble with this approach. It seemed like too much,
and inappropriate, responsibility for a child. My husband, the oldest
of four boys, used to get into trouble if any of the boys did
something wrong becuase "he should have known better than to let them
do it." I've always thought that was extremely unfair, and I guess
the whole "take care of your younger sibling" thing just smacked of
that to me. I do agree, however, with what more than one of you said
about the principle of watching out for the care and safety of
siblings/others. This seems a lot more reasonable than making one
person the "protector" and one (or more) person(s) the "protected."
Angela said:
<<I think it is in part their personalities, but mostly I think it is
because I made it a VERY high priority to stay close by and help them
to sort out their differences from the time they were small. >>
See, I just don't agree with this. I mean I agree with staying close
by and helping kids sort out differences....I have done the exact
same thing, and have been utterly consistent, yet my children
sometimes fight. I mean they can go from "Would you help me, please?"
to each other, to (the younger one usually) screaming and smacking
the older one within minutes. Granted, it's usually when they're
tired, but not always. More often than not, it's when I have to walk
out of the room to do something. They rarely, if ever (I really can't
recall a time), will do this if I am playing with them. And, if I can
stop what I'm doing, I do take one of them away from the situation
and find something to do with them that they enjoy, which works to
resolve that particular situation, but I don't know that it helps
them to adopt the principle of kindness.
I've also seen families who certainly wouldn't win any parenting
awards in this group with children who behave very nicely with each
other. So, I just can't attribute (at least not "mostly") a lack of
sibling rivaly to "good parenting." I think there are many, heavier-
weighing, factors.
For example, my youngest two kids are both adopted. My youngest lived
in an orphanage before living with us. Even though she didn't live
there all that long, as you all probably know, babies' brains
get "wired" into certain patterns right from the beginning. More
specifically, when their basic needs are not being met, and they
haven't bonded with their birth mother, that sets off certain
responses in their brain that affects their overall development and
personality. I think this has A LOT to do with how my kids respond to
each other. This is something I can work on with good parenting
skills, but I don't think they respond to each other due to any kind
of lack of good parenting skills. I guess this is what offended me
about my neighbor's comment. It was as if she was saying to me, "Your
kids wouldn't fight, too, if you were a better parent." Of course I
know she wasn't saying this, but like Sandra's friends with the same-
age babies as her own, you know that's what they're thinking.
Ok, now I'm just whining. I know that the why doesn't really matter
one whit. I did, however, clarify my thoughts (thanks, everyone, for
your help with this), and I will, now, encourage my children to watch
out for the care and safety of each other instead of just keeping
that to myself. This, along with the discussion of principles vs.
rules, brought about some really good suggestions that I have
incorporated into my approach with the rivalry. Maybe it'll help.
Chelsea
Sandra Dodd
-=-And, if I can
stop what I'm doing, I do take one of them away from the situation
and find something to do with them that they enjoy, which works to
resolve that particular situation, but I don't know that it helps
them to adopt the principle of kindness.-=-
It was kind of you to get the younger one into a safe place, or kind
of you to remove the older one from the younger's immediate
vicinity. You'll be modelling kindness.
You'll be creating safety.
Half the people who are in prison might not be if a friend had taken
him away from the situation and find something else to do with him,
just for maybe thirty seconds. Maybe five seconds.
Half the people in prison might not be there if they had learned as
children to breathe and calm down when they were angry or feeling
anxious.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stop what I'm doing, I do take one of them away from the situation
and find something to do with them that they enjoy, which works to
resolve that particular situation, but I don't know that it helps
them to adopt the principle of kindness.-=-
It was kind of you to get the younger one into a safe place, or kind
of you to remove the older one from the younger's immediate
vicinity. You'll be modelling kindness.
You'll be creating safety.
Half the people who are in prison might not be if a friend had taken
him away from the situation and find something else to do with him,
just for maybe thirty seconds. Maybe five seconds.
Half the people in prison might not be there if they had learned as
children to breathe and calm down when they were angry or feeling
anxious.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela Shaw
> Angela said:It's hard to say precisely how much is nature vs. nurture. But even as
> <<I think it is in part their personalities, but mostly I think it is
> because I made it a VERY high priority to stay close by and help them
> to sort out their differences from the time they were small. >>
>
> See, I just don't agree with this. I mean I agree with staying close
> by and helping kids sort out differences....I have done the exact
> same thing, and have been utterly consistent, yet my children
> sometimes fight
> For example, my youngest two kids are both adopted. My youngest lived
> in an orphanage before living with us. Even though she didn't live
> there all that long, as you all probably know, babies' brains
> get "wired" into certain patterns right from the beginning
babies my children learned to trust that I would try to meet their needs.
They spent their infancies at the breast and in arms. It becomes a part of
who they are. Would my children be different if they spent time in an
orphanage as babies? I think so. Absolutely.
I do know that my children came wired with their own personalities right
from the start. They both have always been very verbal and articulate.
They are both very sensitive people. When they were small a few people
suggested to me that I made them as sensitive as they are by coddling them.
But the thing is, I coddled (held, nursed, cuddled) them because they seemed
so sensitive and seemed to need to be close a lot. (they cried when I put
them down, so I held them all the time)
But they learned to negotiate with each other because I stayed close right
from the start, most often playing with them, and I interceded BEFORE a
crisis developed. (we have a pretty small house and they hardly ever played
out of ear shot.) I did not look at their relationship with each other and
think, well, siblings fight, it's just what they do, like some people I know
do. I do not think that is helpful.
Maybe it is partially how one looks at things too. I tend to see all the
good things and not focus on the bad. When my kids do argue, we talk and
solve it and it passes and life becomes peaceful again quickly. I have
always tended to see the cup as half full rather than half empty. I am
forever the optimist.
You may not be able to stop all conflicts with your children but if you stay
close and help them to work through them before they become a crisis, as
well as search for ways to lessen conflicts (buy another computer maybe)
then they will continue to get better at conflict resolution. I still don't
how old they are but it got easier as they got older. At times when mine
were young and my friends from play groups were all hanging out with each
other as the kids played (and sometimes fought), I always stayed close to
mine and sometimes felt left out while I helped them to negotiate with each
other and all the other kids. I do not know any other siblings who get
along as well as mine do. In fact, many of the siblings I know are just
hateful to each other and the parents say nothing to them when they say
hateful things to each other.
I also want to point out the difference in being close by physically without
being close by mentally. (not sure how to word that.) You can be somewhere
physically but still not really be present with your children. Not saying
that is what you do but I do know people who can be in the room with their
kids and still not see a conflict coming because they are somewhere else in
their minds. I can see the crisis coming with their children long before
they do. Maybe that is because their interpersonal skills are not as
strong. Lots of factors to consider but worth the effort to help where you
can.
Angela
kacsshultz
> See, I just don't agree with this. I mean I agree with stayingclose
> by and helping kids sort out differences....I have done the exactI agree that there are some personality types or situations that
> same thing, and have been utterly consistent, yet my children
> sometimes fight.
result in children that might be more likely to fight or hit as a
first course of action, even though the parent is present and
exhibiting way more caring than the average.
I think that it shows that they are still lacking the self awareness
or communication skills to pause and think through the options for
their response, and so there is still a great modeling and learning
opportunity.
In our family, my two daughters 8 and 6, get along incredibly well,
at this age. A few years ago, they could play for a while and then
inevitably some irritation would come up and they might have a fight,
because they needed a break (and usually some food, rest, etc.) Now
they can play for extended times, and it is days between times when
there is a fight or irritation.
Now they have a younger brother who is 3, and my middle daughter has
big issues with him, is frequently irritated by him, is frequently
unwilling to share anything of hers (dvd's, toy pieces, etc.) with
him, and will hit him so quickly in the event of a transgression that
even if I am feet away, sometimes it happens in a moment and I cannot
get there quickly to get between them.
I have been working really hard on thinking through what I have done
and can do to create a better environment for all of them that will
allow them to be safe and learn how to communicate. A few things
that have helped me are:
I thought that I was being fair to everyone, but after scrutinizing
my reactions, I have always been a lot more defensive of the "hittee"
whether it was my younger daughter a few years ago, or my son now. I
have really been trying hard to debrief as much with the hitter as
with the hittee, and to avoid blowing up in a mama bear sort of way
at all costs.
I read somewhere on another list a post by Ren Allen (another
seasoned unschooler), that she will give the hitter a hug. This is
actually brilliant. My interpretation is that she is demonstrating
trust that the hitter is really a good person, even though they just
hit someone. She also acknowledges that they are somewhere on the
path to learning better communication skills, and need empathy and
communication more than anything else to support the learning.
The only difficulty I have with implementing this strategy is that my
son takes a long time to calm down, so when I go to him first, often
by the time he is calm enough to be left on his own for a few minutes
to go to my daughter, she is often totally over the episode, and
might be busy playing with her sister. So she may not be as
interested in the hug and discussion. Usually when it plays out like
that I just tell her I wanted to "check and make sure she is okay,
because she had to be really upset about something to hit her
brother."
The other thing that I have learned, is to try and see the joyous
times in their relationships, of which there are lots, and growing
over time. I will work on mine and my husband's reactions to
fighting and try to bolster our awareness of the opportunity to model
better communicating. I am trying to look at all other areas of
their lives to make sure that the cup is fuller than it might be
right now. Putting those "aware" thoughts out into the forefront of
my consciousness helps me to make better decisions each and every
time.
The one last thought, which is really a question is this. When I
have thought through what to say to my children when there is
hitting, I have tried to think about the answer to "why" they
shouldn't hit. I know that Sandra has used the jail/physical harm
logic, but I've felt like that one sounds too harsh for my kids. Any
other logic for not hitting I've come up with ultimately becomes a
self-serving reason (like, if you hit your brother, he will be upset
and then we will not be able to go to Target as quickly, because I'll
have to spend time with him to calm him down); not only that, it
again seems to refocus on the fact that her brother is doing
something to irritate her. So for now I've dropped trying to share a
reason why they shouldn't hit, I am just responding in the
circumstance and trying to use the gentleness and fairness described
above.
Now that I think about it though, I know that my oldest has expressed
a viewpoint that she feels like war is a bad thing, and maybe it's
possible to say something like "war might be what happens when people
grow up and can't talk about their problems and feel like they need
to hit each other." Thoughts on that??? Still not sure of the logic.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Kelly
Gold Standard
>>When IWhen my kids were young, we had conversations about things we wanted at
>>have thought through what to say to my children when there is
>>hitting, I have tried to think about the answer to "why" they
>>shouldn't hit.<<
home...how we wanted to be treated, what made home a good place to be. The
answers had varied levels of responses ("I want green markers" to "no
yelling") but most of us said, "I don't want to be hurt." This included
hitting, kicking, etc.
With that in the open, any one of us could say it, remind each other, help
each other not do it. One of mine did occasionally hit...not often, but once
in a while. I would usually tend to the recipient first, during that time
the hitter was usually immediately remorseful. He needed good attention too,
back rubbing, a hug. Words during that time were like, "Oops. What
happened?" which usually opened the floodgates of the build up to the event
which alleviated the tension and helped get to a place of how to do it
better next time, so that no one gets hurt. That sometimes included me
paying better attention so that the build up didn't happen.
It wasn't always that the hitter was wrong either. Sometimes the recipient
egged something on in some way and needed to make some changes.
Every situation is a little different, but it is pretty universal that
people want to live with respect and don't want to be hurt. I imagine that
would be the case for your children too. Maybe ask them?
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know that Sandra has used the jail/physical harm
logic, but I've felt like that one sounds too harsh for my kids. Any
other logic for not hitting I've come up with ultimately becomes a
self-serving reason (like, if you hit your brother, he will be upset
and then we will not be able to go to Target as quickly, because I'll
have to spend time with him to calm him down); not only that, it
again seems to refocus on the fact that her brother is doing
something to irritate her. So for now I've dropped trying to share a
reason why they shouldn't hit, I am just responding in the
circumstance and trying to use the gentleness and fairness described
above.-=-
It might not work with kids but it seems to work with adults.
When a person hits, it makes him a violent person.
Does he want to be a person who hits? If he hits, he IS "a person
who hits." The only way to avoid that is to stop hitting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
logic, but I've felt like that one sounds too harsh for my kids. Any
other logic for not hitting I've come up with ultimately becomes a
self-serving reason (like, if you hit your brother, he will be upset
and then we will not be able to go to Target as quickly, because I'll
have to spend time with him to calm him down); not only that, it
again seems to refocus on the fact that her brother is doing
something to irritate her. So for now I've dropped trying to share a
reason why they shouldn't hit, I am just responding in the
circumstance and trying to use the gentleness and fairness described
above.-=-
It might not work with kids but it seems to work with adults.
When a person hits, it makes him a violent person.
Does he want to be a person who hits? If he hits, he IS "a person
who hits." The only way to avoid that is to stop hitting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I did not look at their relationship with each other and
think, well, siblings fight, it's just what they do, like some people
I know
do. I do not think that is helpful. -=-
I agree. There's a set of those assumptions, like "terrible
twos" (Marty was like an angel the whole time he was two years old,
so I'm glad I didn't spend a whole year assuming he was being sneaky
and was about to explode any moment). Like "teenagers rebel" or
"raising a teenager is like trying to nail jello to a tree" or other
child-belittling statements.
Instead of belitting our children and assuming they are limited and
treating them as limited beings, we can consciously treat them as
people, whole people, people who want to do as well as they can. And
we can help them do well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think, well, siblings fight, it's just what they do, like some people
I know
do. I do not think that is helpful. -=-
I agree. There's a set of those assumptions, like "terrible
twos" (Marty was like an angel the whole time he was two years old,
so I'm glad I didn't spend a whole year assuming he was being sneaky
and was about to explode any moment). Like "teenagers rebel" or
"raising a teenager is like trying to nail jello to a tree" or other
child-belittling statements.
Instead of belitting our children and assuming they are limited and
treating them as limited beings, we can consciously treat them as
people, whole people, people who want to do as well as they can. And
we can help them do well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kacsshultz
Jackie, this is brilliant to me also. So far we have given our
children freedom to decide what they want to do with their time.
Your suggestion allows them to actively participate in designing how
they want to be as people.
How often do individuals attain that emotional self-awareness that
hey can make a choice about how they want to be? I wish I would have
learned more a lot earlier in my life. I know that my husband and I
are always talking about what kind of people we want to be, when it
comes to relationships with others, as well as what we want to do
with our lives. A lot of times I think these conversations tend to
happen at night when the kids are asleep, though. There is no reason
that we cannot more proactively have conversations with our children
included about how we want to treat each other and others.
Thanks for your insights. I also have read some of your comments in
the past about your domestic life with your children when they were
young (mostly how you managed food, mess, etc.), and the posts
created a vivid imagery for me that was such a positive motivator.
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...>
wrote:
children freedom to decide what they want to do with their time.
Your suggestion allows them to actively participate in designing how
they want to be as people.
How often do individuals attain that emotional self-awareness that
hey can make a choice about how they want to be? I wish I would have
learned more a lot earlier in my life. I know that my husband and I
are always talking about what kind of people we want to be, when it
comes to relationships with others, as well as what we want to do
with our lives. A lot of times I think these conversations tend to
happen at night when the kids are asleep, though. There is no reason
that we cannot more proactively have conversations with our children
included about how we want to treat each other and others.
Thanks for your insights. I also have read some of your comments in
the past about your domestic life with your children when they were
young (mostly how you managed food, mess, etc.), and the posts
created a vivid imagery for me that was such a positive motivator.
Kelly
--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...>
wrote:
>wanted at
> >>When I
> >>have thought through what to say to my children when there is
> >>hitting, I have tried to think about the answer to "why" they
> >>shouldn't hit.<<
>
> When my kids were young, we had conversations about things we
> home...how we wanted to be treated, what made home a good place tobe. The
> answers had varied levels of responses ("I want green markers"to "no
> yelling") but most of us said, "I don't want to be hurt." Thisincluded
> hitting, kicking, etc.other, help
>
> With that in the open, any one of us could say it, remind each
> each other not do it. One of mine did occasionally hit...not often,but once
> in a while. I would usually tend to the recipient first, duringthat time
> the hitter was usually immediately remorseful. He needed goodattention too,
> back rubbing, a hug. Words during that time were like, "Oops. Whatthe event
> happened?" which usually opened the floodgates of the build up to
> which alleviated the tension and helped get to a place of how to doit
> better next time, so that no one gets hurt. That sometimes includedme
> paying better attention so that the build up didn't happen.recipient
>
> It wasn't always that the hitter was wrong either. Sometimes the
> egged something on in some way and needed to make some changes.that
>
> Every situation is a little different, but it is pretty universal
> people want to live with respect and don't want to be hurt. Iimagine that
> would be the case for your children too. Maybe ask them?
>
> Jacki
>
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
read on down and discovered it was supposed to be read as a negative.
:o)
Ria
> "raising a teenager is like trying to nail jello to a tree"The first time I read this statement I thought, "What Fun!". Then I
read on down and discovered it was supposed to be read as a negative.
:o)
Ria
cecegary
> In our family, my two daughters 8 and 6, get along incredibly well,fight,
> at this age. A few years ago, they could play for a while and then
> inevitably some irritation would come up and they might have a
> because they needed a break (and usually some food, rest, etc.)Now
> they can play for extended times, and it is days between times whenYea! There's hope! So at some point, all of the time put into "let's
> there is a fight or irritation.
work this out together" is going to pay off. Actually, my kids do
play better together than the did last year, but even as the time
between arguments lengthens, new aggravations are cropping up. Some
days the number of things to negotiate grows much faster than the
number of things resolved. It can be exhausting. Today, while with
another (adult) family member, my youngest son decided to try
out, "Who's going to make me?" This is a first for him. I'm glad it
happened without me, though, so I can figure out how I'm going to
respond if/when he tries it out on me. It has caught me off guard,
because he's never had this kind of attitude before. He's always been
the "lover, not the fighter" type...except in his squabbles with his
younger sister.
Chelsea
Gold Standard
Thank you Kelly...I appreciate your words very much.
Jacki
Jacki
>>Thanks for your insights. I also have read some of your comments in
>>the past about your domestic life with your children when they were
>>young (mostly how you managed food, mess, etc.), and the posts
>>created a vivid imagery for me that was such a positive motivator.<<
jenstarc4
> When a person hits, it makes him a violent person.This is very true! On the flip side, as a reminder to the one being
> Does he want to be a person who hits? If he hits, he IS "a person
> who hits." The only way to avoid that is to stop hitting.
>
> Sandra
>
hit, I sometimes say "Them's fightin' words". My older daughter,
while generally a patient and kind person, will get fed up with her
younger sister and explode, then getting a violent reaction from her
little sister.
Margaux hits and kicks and screams when she is frustrated or upset
about things. She's getting better, but it's a very long slow
process for her.
Chamille doesn't tolerate that from her sister, and mostly I let her
handle it her own way. She is getting better at it too. She has a
clear level of tolerance, and Marguax knows when she's stepped over
that threshold and does it anyway, testing her in a way.
Last night Chamille rearranged her whole room. She wanted a cozy
computer place to hang out in her room. She invited her sister to
come and join her in her new space. It was really sweet, and I
wasn't invited, which was kinda cool too. It made Margaux feel very
special. It was fun and there was a lot of laughter and joy in that
room that I wasn't allowed into.
It lasted about 40 min, until Margaux started getting too loud and
wild in there, hitting Chamille over and over with a stuffed animal
with hard eyes, and after being asked and told repeatedly to stop,
Chamille got fed up, gave her a pinch on the arm, and told her to
leave. Margaux cried about it, but the message was clear and I was
proud of Chamille for not accepting her sister's abuse.
That's how life works, you just don't hit someone repeatedly and have
them ask you to stop and not do so, without some sort of
repricussion. I've always told my girls that if they are going to
hit, then they should expect to get hit back, even if I tell them not
to hit each other. I told Chamille that she shouldn't have pinched
her sister. Chamille's response was that she wasn't stopping and she
knew that if she gave her sister a pinch, which she deserved, then
she would leave, because asking her and telling her wasn't working.
It's interesting for me to accept this. While in general I think
retaliating is wrong, hitting back is wrong, and I don't condone such
things, I feel that Chamille handled the situation quite fairly and
without anger, which is a huge big deal! She could've asked me to
come get Margaux, but she wanted to handle it on her own which was
cool. Then, when Margaux came crying to me, she was crying more
about being kicked out, than about being pinched, although that was
her stated reason for crying. Since Margaux is the "hitter" around
here, she knew clearly what she'd done wrong and why she'd been
kicked out.
Just for those that don't know, Chamille is 13 and Margaux is 5,
almost 6, very different developmental ages and stages right now!