Children staying home...a ?
halfshadow1
I had emailed Sandra this question:In one of your posts you said that
you thought it was evil for
parents to charge their adult children "rent" or board for remaining
at home.
Why?-=-
Sandra replied:
It penalizes them for growing up, for having a birthday.
I asked her because I read in one of her posts that she thought it was
evil that some parents will charge their children "room and board" or
"rent" when they reach an *adult* age.
It happened to me when i turned 18yo.
I had to get a job and pay my parents a certain amount each week.
Even tho i agree with Sandra, i had to know the "why" behind her
statement...in order for me to learn. I would like to hear from others
too what they think.
I know my son will never have to leave home or pay me when he turns is
older.Now, what i can hear people (mainstream) people saying about her
reply is....well, kids HAVE to grow up sometime and learn adult
responsibilitys(sp)! What would you say to people who come back with that?
thanks,Heather
you thought it was evil for
parents to charge their adult children "rent" or board for remaining
at home.
Why?-=-
Sandra replied:
It penalizes them for growing up, for having a birthday.
I asked her because I read in one of her posts that she thought it was
evil that some parents will charge their children "room and board" or
"rent" when they reach an *adult* age.
It happened to me when i turned 18yo.
I had to get a job and pay my parents a certain amount each week.
Even tho i agree with Sandra, i had to know the "why" behind her
statement...in order for me to learn. I would like to hear from others
too what they think.
I know my son will never have to leave home or pay me when he turns is
older.Now, what i can hear people (mainstream) people saying about her
reply is....well, kids HAVE to grow up sometime and learn adult
responsibilitys(sp)! What would you say to people who come back with that?
thanks,Heather
Sandra Dodd
-=-Now, what i can hear people (mainstream) people saying about her
reply is....well, kids HAVE to grow up sometime and learn adult
responsibilitys(sp)! What would you say to people who come back with
that?-=-
They have responsibilities when they leave their parent's homes and
have to pay rent and utilities.
Pretending, at home, is an exercise, a drill, "practice."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reply is....well, kids HAVE to grow up sometime and learn adult
responsibilitys(sp)! What would you say to people who come back with
that?-=-
They have responsibilities when they leave their parent's homes and
have to pay rent and utilities.
Pretending, at home, is an exercise, a drill, "practice."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On Jul 12, 2007, at 12:20 PM, halfshadow1 wrote:
might even kick the kid out if they don't pay. But the parents are
*choosing* to ask for rent. (And choosing to kick the kid out.) They
could just as easily not ask for rent. Is the kid taking up a room
that was previously rented? When the kid leaves, are they going to
advertise and rent the room out to someone else? The only reason
they're asking for rent is because the kid turned 18.
Not so with a landlord. You can't get an apartment without paying rent.
Same with tying allowance to chores. It's not the same as having a
job. It's pretend. The parents aren't a company where their income
depends on their employees' output. The parents have the money
already, regardless of what the child does. They could just hand it
to the kid. But they choose to make the kid jump through a hoop to
get it.
Psychologically a totally different situation and it's why kids don't
act like employees who have freely chosen a job knowing they could go
find another job at any point. Because they aren't.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Now, what i can hear people (mainstream) people saying about herCharging kids rent is pretend. It can look the same. The parents
> reply is....well, kids HAVE to grow up sometime and learn adult
> responsibilitys(sp)!
might even kick the kid out if they don't pay. But the parents are
*choosing* to ask for rent. (And choosing to kick the kid out.) They
could just as easily not ask for rent. Is the kid taking up a room
that was previously rented? When the kid leaves, are they going to
advertise and rent the room out to someone else? The only reason
they're asking for rent is because the kid turned 18.
Not so with a landlord. You can't get an apartment without paying rent.
Same with tying allowance to chores. It's not the same as having a
job. It's pretend. The parents aren't a company where their income
depends on their employees' output. The parents have the money
already, regardless of what the child does. They could just hand it
to the kid. But they choose to make the kid jump through a hoop to
get it.
Psychologically a totally different situation and it's why kids don't
act like employees who have freely chosen a job knowing they could go
find another job at any point. Because they aren't.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
> It happened to me when i turned 18yo.Did that help you generous or helpful to your parents? I doubt much
> I had to get a job and pay my parents a certain amount each week.
that it did. If we are able to support our daughters until they
decide to leave home, then I think we should do that.
My 13 yo, is already very generous with her allowance, and I don't
see that changing. If she were 18, working, earning money, I could
see her sharing her money with us. She's just like that. It
wouldn't be expected or asked for, she would just do it because we
have been generous with her, so she is in turn generous.
If I expected her to share her money, she wouldn't graciously share
it. She gets money every month, and spends some of it on her sister
all the time. Her sister gets money and generously shares hers too.
When one runs out, the other shares. It's really nice! If I made
one or the other share their money, they would likely try to hide it
from me, or keep it to themselves, holding on tight, knowing it could
be taken away.
Those ideas about money being freely shared, even when there isn't
much to go around, have had a huge impact on our kids. I imagine,
that either one of them would graciously share money with their
parents wether it was needed or not.
Making an 18 yo pay rent just seems mean to me, given that we have
been sharing all along. I would much rather see my kids have the
opportunity to save up money in their young adult hood, for eventual
moving out or buying a house or whatnot. That would be a nice
blessing that I could give them.
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I expected her to share her money, she wouldn't graciously share
it. She gets money every month, and spends some of it on her sister
all the time. Her sister gets money and generously shares hers too.
When one runs out, the other shares. It's really nice! If I made
one or the other share their money, they would likely try to hide it
from me, or keep it to themselves, holding on tight, knowing it could
be taken away.-=-
My kids went to a concert in another town today, Marty and Holly.
Warped Tour, in Las Cruces, a four hour trip. It's a little less if
they speed, which Marty did, unfortunately, and he wouldn't have
gotten a ticket if Keith had signed the registration. So Keith will
probably pay that ticket, because the police officer said she
would've given Marty a warning only, but the unsigned registration
tipped the balance.
That's not the story I started to tell, but I think it counts, here.
I knew that story because I called to see how Holly was. They were
in the town but not at the concert yet, when I called. I heard
several stories, and the four people there (Holly's 13 year old
friend and Marty's 22 year old friend, too; Sadie, a friend of the
whole family)... the four were laughing and joking, and Holly did
feel better. She's been feverish and sore-throatish.
So...
Anyway.
At one point they were planning to stay overnight, when we thought
the concert would end late. I offered to pay all or some of the cost
of the motel room. The two older kids (who are going because Holly
wanted to see Cute is What We Aim For and wanted to be taken there)
said they could cover it. Holly said she would put in up to a half,
for her and her friend.
They could have taken my money, but they didn't. I gave Marty my
debit card and said to use it in case of emergency or car repair need.
Before they left, we were up and Kirby hadn't gone to sleep yet (they
got up at 6:00 to leave at 7:00, and Kirby works until 3:00 a.m.).
He and Marty and I were talking about what video game systems he's
talking with him when he moves in August. He's leaving the X-Box,
which he and Marty bought together. He's taking the original
Playstation, which Marty bought with his own money. Marty has a
Playstation 2, also, so doesn't mind Kirby taking the older one.
Kirby will take the Wii, which he bought himself, and some of the
game cube games (which they told me will play on the Wii). There was
no unhappiness and no arguing in the whole conversation. It was very
friendly and pleasant, and I was impressed.
From my own childhood I remember lots of resentment, argument,
crying, deprivation, parents telling kids to shut up, kids telling
other kids "It's not fair..."
Being generous with our kids seems to have made us generous.
Holly bought all the tickets with money she made babysitting, last
spring. The two older kids paid her back. The mom of the other
girl said she/mom wasn't going to pay for this concert, the girl
would have to. The girl babysits lots, but doesn't get paid. The
tickets were $37.50. Meals are, say $5 each. Part of a motel would
be $15 to $25. Gasoline? Marty will probably just pay for that.
The girl's mom gave her $20.
Knowing this wasn't going to be forthcoming from the other family, an
adult friend of all involved gave Holly the price of that concert
ticket as a birthday gift to the other girl. I don't know if the
other mom knows. The girl got $50 for her birthday, and her mom
told her she could not take it to the concert, but had to spend it on
clothes.
All around us my kids see other families handle money in arbitrary
and seemingly vindictive ways.
I see the good results of avoiding those bad decisions (or those bad
follow-the-crowd lack-of-thought "decisions").
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it. She gets money every month, and spends some of it on her sister
all the time. Her sister gets money and generously shares hers too.
When one runs out, the other shares. It's really nice! If I made
one or the other share their money, they would likely try to hide it
from me, or keep it to themselves, holding on tight, knowing it could
be taken away.-=-
My kids went to a concert in another town today, Marty and Holly.
Warped Tour, in Las Cruces, a four hour trip. It's a little less if
they speed, which Marty did, unfortunately, and he wouldn't have
gotten a ticket if Keith had signed the registration. So Keith will
probably pay that ticket, because the police officer said she
would've given Marty a warning only, but the unsigned registration
tipped the balance.
That's not the story I started to tell, but I think it counts, here.
I knew that story because I called to see how Holly was. They were
in the town but not at the concert yet, when I called. I heard
several stories, and the four people there (Holly's 13 year old
friend and Marty's 22 year old friend, too; Sadie, a friend of the
whole family)... the four were laughing and joking, and Holly did
feel better. She's been feverish and sore-throatish.
So...
Anyway.
At one point they were planning to stay overnight, when we thought
the concert would end late. I offered to pay all or some of the cost
of the motel room. The two older kids (who are going because Holly
wanted to see Cute is What We Aim For and wanted to be taken there)
said they could cover it. Holly said she would put in up to a half,
for her and her friend.
They could have taken my money, but they didn't. I gave Marty my
debit card and said to use it in case of emergency or car repair need.
Before they left, we were up and Kirby hadn't gone to sleep yet (they
got up at 6:00 to leave at 7:00, and Kirby works until 3:00 a.m.).
He and Marty and I were talking about what video game systems he's
talking with him when he moves in August. He's leaving the X-Box,
which he and Marty bought together. He's taking the original
Playstation, which Marty bought with his own money. Marty has a
Playstation 2, also, so doesn't mind Kirby taking the older one.
Kirby will take the Wii, which he bought himself, and some of the
game cube games (which they told me will play on the Wii). There was
no unhappiness and no arguing in the whole conversation. It was very
friendly and pleasant, and I was impressed.
From my own childhood I remember lots of resentment, argument,
crying, deprivation, parents telling kids to shut up, kids telling
other kids "It's not fair..."
Being generous with our kids seems to have made us generous.
Holly bought all the tickets with money she made babysitting, last
spring. The two older kids paid her back. The mom of the other
girl said she/mom wasn't going to pay for this concert, the girl
would have to. The girl babysits lots, but doesn't get paid. The
tickets were $37.50. Meals are, say $5 each. Part of a motel would
be $15 to $25. Gasoline? Marty will probably just pay for that.
The girl's mom gave her $20.
Knowing this wasn't going to be forthcoming from the other family, an
adult friend of all involved gave Holly the price of that concert
ticket as a birthday gift to the other girl. I don't know if the
other mom knows. The girl got $50 for her birthday, and her mom
told her she could not take it to the concert, but had to spend it on
clothes.
All around us my kids see other families handle money in arbitrary
and seemingly vindictive ways.
I see the good results of avoiding those bad decisions (or those bad
follow-the-crowd lack-of-thought "decisions").
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
halfshadow1
-It made me feel awful! I also had to get a job at 16 because i quit
school. They told me that since i wasn't in school i had to work. I
felt scared, I so afraid of not being able to afford a place because i
had a fear of them kicking me out and i was worried i couldn't afford
rent for a place and wind up homeless. It was either join the Airforce
or get married! Of course i couldn't *leach* off them at 16 yo..ugh!--
In [email protected], "jenstarc4" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
school. They told me that since i wasn't in school i had to work. I
felt scared, I so afraid of not being able to afford a place because i
had a fear of them kicking me out and i was worried i couldn't afford
rent for a place and wind up homeless. It was either join the Airforce
or get married! Of course i couldn't *leach* off them at 16 yo..ugh!--
In [email protected], "jenstarc4" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> > It happened to me when i turned 18yo.
> > I had to get a job and pay my parents a certain amount each week.
>
> Did that help you generous or helpful to your parents? I doubt much
> that it did. If we are able to support our daughters until they
> decide to leave home, then I think we should do that.
>
> My 13 yo, is already very generous with her allowance, and I don't
> see that changing. If she were 18, working, earning money, I could
> see her sharing her money with us. She's just like that. It
> wouldn't be expected or asked for, she would just do it because we
> have been generous with her, so she is in turn generous.
>
> If I expected her to share her money, she wouldn't graciously share
> it. She gets money every month, and spends some of it on her sister
> all the time. Her sister gets money and generously shares hers too.
> When one runs out, the other shares. It's really nice! If I made
> one or the other share their money, they would likely try to hide it
> from me, or keep it to themselves, holding on tight, knowing it could
> be taken away.
>
> Those ideas about money being freely shared, even when there isn't
> much to go around, have had a huge impact on our kids. I imagine,
> that either one of them would graciously share money with their
> parents wether it was needed or not.
>
> Making an 18 yo pay rent just seems mean to me, given that we have
> been sharing all along. I would much rather see my kids have the
> opportunity to save up money in their young adult hood, for eventual
> moving out or buying a house or whatnot. That would be a nice
> blessing that I could give them.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-It was either join the Airforce
or get married! Of course i couldn't *leach* off them at 16
yo..ugh!---=-
This is so sad to read, but I think reminders, sometimes, of the
mainstream thinking, can help us see more clearly why and how to make
conscious decisions to do differently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
or get married! Of course i couldn't *leach* off them at 16
yo..ugh!---=-
This is so sad to read, but I think reminders, sometimes, of the
mainstream thinking, can help us see more clearly why and how to make
conscious decisions to do differently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/12/2007 6:28:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
halfshadow1@... writes:
It made me feel awful! I also had to get a job at 16 because i quit
school. They told me that since i wasn't in school i had to work
___
My daughter's boyfriend is 16 and just graduated from high school. Very
mainstream family...curfews that seem to change depending on the mom's mood,
lots of rules and it has been quite unsettling for my daughter.
His family expects him to move out in August because he has graduated from
high school. He skipped a couple of grades so I can just imagine he's wishing
he hadn't now. He could have at least stayed home a couple more years. I
don't really know the whole story but I just am so sad for him. I can't
imagine an 18 year old much less a 16 year old having to deal with this.
My kids both know that they can live at home until they are ready to leave
and they are welcome back at any time for as many times as they want. This is
their home as well as my home.
Gail
************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
halfshadow1@... writes:
It made me feel awful! I also had to get a job at 16 because i quit
school. They told me that since i wasn't in school i had to work
___
My daughter's boyfriend is 16 and just graduated from high school. Very
mainstream family...curfews that seem to change depending on the mom's mood,
lots of rules and it has been quite unsettling for my daughter.
His family expects him to move out in August because he has graduated from
high school. He skipped a couple of grades so I can just imagine he's wishing
he hadn't now. He could have at least stayed home a couple more years. I
don't really know the whole story but I just am so sad for him. I can't
imagine an 18 year old much less a 16 year old having to deal with this.
My kids both know that they can live at home until they are ready to leave
and they are welcome back at any time for as many times as they want. This is
their home as well as my home.
Gail
************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=His family expects him to move out in August because he has
graduated from
high school. He skipped a couple of grades so I can just imagine he's
wishing
he hadn't now. He could have at least stayed home a couple more
years.-=-
SHEESH! That might not even be legal. I mean, he can go to college,
but he probably can't rent an apartment without being an emancipated
minor. They have to keep him on their medical insurance and such, it
would seem. (Morally "have to.")
Poor, poor guy, trying to do a cool thing to earn parental approval
and getting screwed horribly for it in the long run. Will they pay
for him to go to college? If I were him, I'd milk what I could.
Come to think of it, I kinda was him. I graduated early and went to
college. Sixteen when I graduated, barely 17 when I went to the
university. My parents divorced during that first year and I had no
home to come home to. By my sophomore year, though, I was 18. My
dad paid for room and board, and I did loans for tuition and books.
Still, poor guy, your friend. Poor parents, missing a huge
opportunity for a lifelong relationship based on goodness and
generosity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graduated from
high school. He skipped a couple of grades so I can just imagine he's
wishing
he hadn't now. He could have at least stayed home a couple more
years.-=-
SHEESH! That might not even be legal. I mean, he can go to college,
but he probably can't rent an apartment without being an emancipated
minor. They have to keep him on their medical insurance and such, it
would seem. (Morally "have to.")
Poor, poor guy, trying to do a cool thing to earn parental approval
and getting screwed horribly for it in the long run. Will they pay
for him to go to college? If I were him, I'd milk what I could.
Come to think of it, I kinda was him. I graduated early and went to
college. Sixteen when I graduated, barely 17 when I went to the
university. My parents divorced during that first year and I had no
home to come home to. By my sophomore year, though, I was 18. My
dad paid for room and board, and I did loans for tuition and books.
Still, poor guy, your friend. Poor parents, missing a huge
opportunity for a lifelong relationship based on goodness and
generosity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
halfshadow1
My mom was/is really toxic. She and I were arguing one day about my
room and I said;It's my house too and she said; no it's not, your just
living here until your old enough to move out.--- In
[email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
room and I said;It's my house too and she said; no it's not, your just
living here until your old enough to move out.--- In
[email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=His family expects him to move out in August because he has
> graduated from
> high school. He skipped a couple of grades so I can just imagine he's
> wishing
> he hadn't now. He could have at least stayed home a couple more
> years.-=-
>
> SHEESH! That might not even be legal. I mean, he can go to college,
> but he probably can't rent an apartment without being an emancipated
> minor. They have to keep him on their medical insurance and such, it
> would seem. (Morally "have to.")
>
> Poor, poor guy, trying to do a cool thing to earn parental approval
> and getting screwed horribly for it in the long run. Will they pay
> for him to go to college? If I were him, I'd milk what I could.
>
> Come to think of it, I kinda was him. I graduated early and went to
> college. Sixteen when I graduated, barely 17 when I went to the
> university. My parents divorced during that first year and I had no
> home to come home to. By my sophomore year, though, I was 18. My
> dad paid for room and board, and I did loans for tuition and books.
>
> Still, poor guy, your friend. Poor parents, missing a huge
> opportunity for a lifelong relationship based on goodness and
> generosity.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
diana jenner
On 7/12/07, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
It's not that Kirby is Kirby (well, in some ways it *is* ::g::) -- his
actions, his perspective, who-he-is and how he is not afraid to share
himself, comes directly from having the relationship he does with his
family. It irks me when folks write off a kid with a good relationship with
their folks as a rarity and yet do *nothing* to inspire that kind of bond
with their own-- in fact, most work hard to do quite the opposite.
Not just the parents who miss out, the rest of us (adults who are written
off as *just like my folks*) do, too!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>This is my first thought when I hear of folks agonizing over their teens...
> Poor parents, missing a huge
> opportunity for a lifelong relationship based on goodness and
> generosity.
>
>
>
>
It's not that Kirby is Kirby (well, in some ways it *is* ::g::) -- his
actions, his perspective, who-he-is and how he is not afraid to share
himself, comes directly from having the relationship he does with his
family. It irks me when folks write off a kid with a good relationship with
their folks as a rarity and yet do *nothing* to inspire that kind of bond
with their own-- in fact, most work hard to do quite the opposite.
Not just the parents who miss out, the rest of us (adults who are written
off as *just like my folks*) do, too!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
A couple of months ago hubby and I were talking about how we might sell the house when we are older and no longer want to or can take care of so much property - so we can travel more, etc. Our son piped up and said he'd like to have the house and property as it would be a great place to live when he has kids. We said OK we'd get a camper to travel (our dream retirement) and he could have the house -
Sooooooooooooo - we might be the ones moving out - LOL
Though he has mentioned going away for college recently too.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sooooooooooooo - we might be the ones moving out - LOL
Though he has mentioned going away for college recently too.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cecegary
Ok, so what about other bills incurred by your teen living at home?
Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence?
Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
contribute to their own bills)?
I remember my parents paying my way (for EVERYTHING) until I was
finished with college. Transitioning from the "free ride" to paying my
own bills was quite a shock. I think now that if I had been
transitioned into paying my own bills gradually over time, it wouldn't
have been so bad. I struggled with "adulthood" for many years before I
actually took full financial responsibility for myself. I think this
could have been avoided.
Thanks,
Chelsea
Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence?
Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
contribute to their own bills)?
I remember my parents paying my way (for EVERYTHING) until I was
finished with college. Transitioning from the "free ride" to paying my
own bills was quite a shock. I think now that if I had been
transitioned into paying my own bills gradually over time, it wouldn't
have been so bad. I struggled with "adulthood" for many years before I
actually took full financial responsibility for myself. I think this
could have been avoided.
Thanks,
Chelsea
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ok, so what about other bills incurred by your teen living at home?
Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence? -=-
I'm going to answer every question here in detail in another post,
but in this one I'm going to point out the steep slant of the writing.
Ok, so...
That isn't the beginning people choose for something calm and open
and honest. It's an accusation.
"Their every indulgence?"
That's challenging in an insinuating and snarky way. The words
chosen have connotations, more than denotations.
-=-Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
contribute to their own bills)?
-=-I remember my parents paying my way (for EVERYTHING) until I was
finished with college. Transitioning from the "free ride" to paying my
own bills was quite a shock. I think now-=-
The choice of capitalization is significant, and the writer did
choose it.
"Free ride" sounds bad, too. Whose phrase is that? How is that you
come to resent a gift?
And I believe the writing above refers wholly to a "school kid"--
someone who went to school, and then college, and then (seemingly,
from this... ) ... but wait.
-=-I think now that if I had been
transitioned into paying my own bills gradually over time, it wouldn't
have been so bad. I struggled with "adulthood" for many years before I
actually took full financial responsibility for myself. I think this
could have been avoided.-=-
This is someone resentful because of the effects of school, I think,
and of traditional parenting.
"Struggled into 'adulthood'" can't begin to apply to the grown
unschoolers I know. They have had the opportunity to have
responsibilities since they were young. Not "given responsibilities"
as practice or training, not false responsibilities, but real, that
they chose themselves, when they wanted to, that they worked with on
smaller scales.
People communicate more with their words than they mean to, very often.
Now I'll post a different way, next time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence? -=-
I'm going to answer every question here in detail in another post,
but in this one I'm going to point out the steep slant of the writing.
Ok, so...
That isn't the beginning people choose for something calm and open
and honest. It's an accusation.
"Their every indulgence?"
That's challenging in an insinuating and snarky way. The words
chosen have connotations, more than denotations.
-=-Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
contribute to their own bills)?
-=-I remember my parents paying my way (for EVERYTHING) until I was
finished with college. Transitioning from the "free ride" to paying my
own bills was quite a shock. I think now-=-
The choice of capitalization is significant, and the writer did
choose it.
"Free ride" sounds bad, too. Whose phrase is that? How is that you
come to resent a gift?
And I believe the writing above refers wholly to a "school kid"--
someone who went to school, and then college, and then (seemingly,
from this... ) ... but wait.
-=-I think now that if I had been
transitioned into paying my own bills gradually over time, it wouldn't
have been so bad. I struggled with "adulthood" for many years before I
actually took full financial responsibility for myself. I think this
could have been avoided.-=-
This is someone resentful because of the effects of school, I think,
and of traditional parenting.
"Struggled into 'adulthood'" can't begin to apply to the grown
unschoolers I know. They have had the opportunity to have
responsibilities since they were young. Not "given responsibilities"
as practice or training, not false responsibilities, but real, that
they chose themselves, when they wanted to, that they worked with on
smaller scales.
People communicate more with their words than they mean to, very often.
Now I'll post a different way, next time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ok, so what about other bills incurred by your teen living at
home? -=-
My kids have lived at home since they were born. Sometimes they took
classes (ice skating, karate, dance, theatre), and sometimes they had
expensive hobbies they couldn't afford on their allowance. We could
have said no, but we were actively and consciously trying to provide
a rich environment in which they could grow up and learn.
Because we had NONE of the school expenses (meal plan, uniforms, art
fees, lab fees, field trip costs, new notebooks every year or twice a
year, brand-name clothes to impress the other kids), that money was
freed up to be used for REALLY good learning opportunities.
There was no point at which we thought "Okay, NOW you're done
learning, and we don't have to provide you with diddly."
As a reminder, my kids are 15, 18 and 20.
As a reminder, they were once 1, 4 and 6.
-=-Should you also pay for their car insurance...-=-
We chose (didn't "should" and didn't "have to") to pay for insurance.
When Kirby started driving, he was driving himself to work and karate
(where he studied and also taught). I had to drive him before that.
When he could drive, he drove. He also delivered his brother and
sister to places they needed to be sometimes. This was a service to
the family group, to the system we had been developing for years. He
was learning to drive in short, safe trips to familiar places. That
practice was very, very good, and I'm sure saved him lots of grief
and money, as he's never had an accident short of a rear-ending when
the others fled the scene, and hitting a concrete bumper at work
(gently). So that practice is good for his safety and his overall
lifetime automotive costs. It's safer for other people's kids and
families that our kids have gotten lots of good, safe practice.
-=-...and gas (for the car you bought for them)?-=-
We didn't buy any cars for our kids specifically, though if we had
more money we cheerfully would have.
Keith and I have usually had three automobiles between us, since we
met in our early 20's. After Kirby was driving and Marty was
learning, a friend of ours needed to sell her Saturn with a standard
transmission, to buy a four wheel drive because she had moved into
snowy mountains. We bought it, partly so our kids could learn to
drive a stick shift.
That's Saturn has been a great extra car. Yesterday four people went
to Warped Tour in Las Cruces (last New Mexico city before El Paso and
Juarez). They were 22, 18, 15 and 13. The middle two were mine.
The older two drove.
This morning I went out and peeled off an old torn up "Trogdor the
Burninator" bumper sticker, cleaned the bumper with soapy water and
409, and put on a brand new Trogdor sticker in a better spot. I
won't tell Marty. He'll discover it at some point. He and the 22
year old will go up to northern New Mexico today where his dad and
other friends of theirs are already camping, and spend the rest of
the weekend there.
-=-Cell phone? -=-
A friend of Kirby's who works for a cellphone company got Kirby his
own phone years ago, but Kirby's upgrading and will pay fully for his
own, starting this week or so.
Marty pays for his and for the text messaging, on a family plan I
share with him and Holly.
We pay for Holly's. That was her Christmas gift last year.
Keith the dad doesn't have a cellphone; doesn't want one. We all
wish he did.
-=-What about their entertainment money?-=-
We've never had the concept "entertainment money" here. Because
everything is a learning opportunity, we've paid for all kinds of
things for them, from video games (at arcades, at home) to museum
memberships to Disneyland to action figures. But something happened,
because we were generous and didn't sort things into "educational"
and "entertainment. Lots of things happened, but one thing was that
our kids were happy to pay for such things themselves when they had
money, and to pay for their siblings and friends.
We modelled a way to be generous and sharing.
-=-Guitar lessons?-=-
By the time Kirby was 18, we weren't paying for karate because he was
teaching and earning his dojo membership.
I haven't paid for lessons for anyone over 18, but would be willing
to. If I had a friend who really wanted lessons and couldn't pay for
it, I'd consider helping him pay for it, too, if I couldn't teach him
myself (and guitar I could, but I know that was just an example).
-=- Their every indulgence? -=-
In an unschooling situation, guitar lessons wouldn't be "an indulgence."
But I want to look at "indulgence." It has a religious meaning, and
has to do with making someone more whole, safer, sin-free.
So when it's used as an insult, to name something the speaker wants
to suggest the target listener (or non-present target) shouldn't be
doing, it means that they are unfairly making someone else's life (or
their own) bigger, better, safer, sin-free. And THAT is a sin. To
alieve suffering is a sin, in most people's eyes. Or a waste of
time. Or martyrdom. But in our culture, it's generally not
considered to be a good thing.
If, instead of "indulge," one said "assist" or "care for" or
"maintain," then the taint of sin fades away.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
home? -=-
My kids have lived at home since they were born. Sometimes they took
classes (ice skating, karate, dance, theatre), and sometimes they had
expensive hobbies they couldn't afford on their allowance. We could
have said no, but we were actively and consciously trying to provide
a rich environment in which they could grow up and learn.
Because we had NONE of the school expenses (meal plan, uniforms, art
fees, lab fees, field trip costs, new notebooks every year or twice a
year, brand-name clothes to impress the other kids), that money was
freed up to be used for REALLY good learning opportunities.
There was no point at which we thought "Okay, NOW you're done
learning, and we don't have to provide you with diddly."
As a reminder, my kids are 15, 18 and 20.
As a reminder, they were once 1, 4 and 6.
-=-Should you also pay for their car insurance...-=-
We chose (didn't "should" and didn't "have to") to pay for insurance.
When Kirby started driving, he was driving himself to work and karate
(where he studied and also taught). I had to drive him before that.
When he could drive, he drove. He also delivered his brother and
sister to places they needed to be sometimes. This was a service to
the family group, to the system we had been developing for years. He
was learning to drive in short, safe trips to familiar places. That
practice was very, very good, and I'm sure saved him lots of grief
and money, as he's never had an accident short of a rear-ending when
the others fled the scene, and hitting a concrete bumper at work
(gently). So that practice is good for his safety and his overall
lifetime automotive costs. It's safer for other people's kids and
families that our kids have gotten lots of good, safe practice.
-=-...and gas (for the car you bought for them)?-=-
We didn't buy any cars for our kids specifically, though if we had
more money we cheerfully would have.
Keith and I have usually had three automobiles between us, since we
met in our early 20's. After Kirby was driving and Marty was
learning, a friend of ours needed to sell her Saturn with a standard
transmission, to buy a four wheel drive because she had moved into
snowy mountains. We bought it, partly so our kids could learn to
drive a stick shift.
That's Saturn has been a great extra car. Yesterday four people went
to Warped Tour in Las Cruces (last New Mexico city before El Paso and
Juarez). They were 22, 18, 15 and 13. The middle two were mine.
The older two drove.
This morning I went out and peeled off an old torn up "Trogdor the
Burninator" bumper sticker, cleaned the bumper with soapy water and
409, and put on a brand new Trogdor sticker in a better spot. I
won't tell Marty. He'll discover it at some point. He and the 22
year old will go up to northern New Mexico today where his dad and
other friends of theirs are already camping, and spend the rest of
the weekend there.
-=-Cell phone? -=-
A friend of Kirby's who works for a cellphone company got Kirby his
own phone years ago, but Kirby's upgrading and will pay fully for his
own, starting this week or so.
Marty pays for his and for the text messaging, on a family plan I
share with him and Holly.
We pay for Holly's. That was her Christmas gift last year.
Keith the dad doesn't have a cellphone; doesn't want one. We all
wish he did.
-=-What about their entertainment money?-=-
We've never had the concept "entertainment money" here. Because
everything is a learning opportunity, we've paid for all kinds of
things for them, from video games (at arcades, at home) to museum
memberships to Disneyland to action figures. But something happened,
because we were generous and didn't sort things into "educational"
and "entertainment. Lots of things happened, but one thing was that
our kids were happy to pay for such things themselves when they had
money, and to pay for their siblings and friends.
We modelled a way to be generous and sharing.
-=-Guitar lessons?-=-
By the time Kirby was 18, we weren't paying for karate because he was
teaching and earning his dojo membership.
I haven't paid for lessons for anyone over 18, but would be willing
to. If I had a friend who really wanted lessons and couldn't pay for
it, I'd consider helping him pay for it, too, if I couldn't teach him
myself (and guitar I could, but I know that was just an example).
-=- Their every indulgence? -=-
In an unschooling situation, guitar lessons wouldn't be "an indulgence."
But I want to look at "indulgence." It has a religious meaning, and
has to do with making someone more whole, safer, sin-free.
So when it's used as an insult, to name something the speaker wants
to suggest the target listener (or non-present target) shouldn't be
doing, it means that they are unfairly making someone else's life (or
their own) bigger, better, safer, sin-free. And THAT is a sin. To
alieve suffering is a sin, in most people's eyes. Or a waste of
time. Or martyrdom. But in our culture, it's generally not
considered to be a good thing.
If, instead of "indulge," one said "assist" or "care for" or
"maintain," then the taint of sin fades away.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ok, so what about other bills incurred by your teen living at home?
Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence?
-=-Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
contribute to their own bills)?-=-
It happened so gradually with my kids that there was never a time to
decide.
Kirby was offered a job at 14, because he was helping voluntarily, so
they started paying him (at a gaming shop, where he became at first
the Pokemon Gym-whatever, running the Saturday Pokemon League games,
which was a pretty hefty project with lots of rules to learn and
expensive pins and prizes to keep track of, and reports to write to
the company). He had a discount, then, on the gaming supplies he
was already buying with his allowance before that.
I suppose we could have penalized him by taking some of that money
away, but he was learning and thriving, and that was part of our goal
and desire for him, so we kept feeding and housing and clothing him,
just as we would have if he had been in school or unemployeed.
Marty was offered a job at 15, working for a man who made boots and
pouches of leather, for re-enactors and historical reproduction
this'n'that. Marty learned LOTS, and lots. And he was being paid.
He was making money learning.
I suppose we could have taken some of that money away, but darned if
we didn't start paying for his insurance so he could drive himself to
work. And then, darned if he didn't often prefer to go up the bike
trail on his roller blades instead of driving (though sometimes he
took the bus back, because it was uphill and he was tired after work,
and darned if I didn't always make sure he had quarters in his pocket
for the bus).
The way it works at our house is that all our kids have earned money,
and they go out to eat, buy games, go to movies with it, and treat
their friends if their friends are poorer. When they were younger
and poorer, older or richer friends often paid for movies or meals or
arcade play for them, and it flows back. Marty saves more than Kirby
does. Kirby makes more than Marty made when Marty was last working,
but Marty saved thousands of dollars and used some of it to go to
Oregon and Washington. Holly saved hundreds of dollars from a
babysitting job and used some of it to go on a trip to visit friends
in Rhode Island (she paid her airfare and took her own spending
money, of her own choice). Some of it she used to go to a big music
concert yesterday.
Next month we're paying for Marty and Holly to go to an unschooling
conference across the country. They want to go, we want them to be
able to go, the whole family can't go, but they can. And another
family is going to take care of them while they're there, and I'm
assuming my kids will be helpful and generous, because they have been
that way for years, in other situations.
I think I could have made them mean and stingy and we could have
created a situation in which they didn't get to use real money in
real ways and make their own decisions about their money, but I'm
THRILLED that we didn't do that.
My oldest is moving, and I'm not worried that he'll screw up his
finances. If he gets in debt, we'll help him by lending him money
cheap to get him out, but he would probably borrow directly himself,
from the credit union.
Oh. Kirby has a car and is paying his own insurance now. His uncle
died, and Kirby was given the car. It's in his name. He didn't have
to buy it, and we didn't buy it for him. He'll turn 21 soon.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence?
-=-Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
contribute to their own bills)?-=-
It happened so gradually with my kids that there was never a time to
decide.
Kirby was offered a job at 14, because he was helping voluntarily, so
they started paying him (at a gaming shop, where he became at first
the Pokemon Gym-whatever, running the Saturday Pokemon League games,
which was a pretty hefty project with lots of rules to learn and
expensive pins and prizes to keep track of, and reports to write to
the company). He had a discount, then, on the gaming supplies he
was already buying with his allowance before that.
I suppose we could have penalized him by taking some of that money
away, but he was learning and thriving, and that was part of our goal
and desire for him, so we kept feeding and housing and clothing him,
just as we would have if he had been in school or unemployeed.
Marty was offered a job at 15, working for a man who made boots and
pouches of leather, for re-enactors and historical reproduction
this'n'that. Marty learned LOTS, and lots. And he was being paid.
He was making money learning.
I suppose we could have taken some of that money away, but darned if
we didn't start paying for his insurance so he could drive himself to
work. And then, darned if he didn't often prefer to go up the bike
trail on his roller blades instead of driving (though sometimes he
took the bus back, because it was uphill and he was tired after work,
and darned if I didn't always make sure he had quarters in his pocket
for the bus).
The way it works at our house is that all our kids have earned money,
and they go out to eat, buy games, go to movies with it, and treat
their friends if their friends are poorer. When they were younger
and poorer, older or richer friends often paid for movies or meals or
arcade play for them, and it flows back. Marty saves more than Kirby
does. Kirby makes more than Marty made when Marty was last working,
but Marty saved thousands of dollars and used some of it to go to
Oregon and Washington. Holly saved hundreds of dollars from a
babysitting job and used some of it to go on a trip to visit friends
in Rhode Island (she paid her airfare and took her own spending
money, of her own choice). Some of it she used to go to a big music
concert yesterday.
Next month we're paying for Marty and Holly to go to an unschooling
conference across the country. They want to go, we want them to be
able to go, the whole family can't go, but they can. And another
family is going to take care of them while they're there, and I'm
assuming my kids will be helpful and generous, because they have been
that way for years, in other situations.
I think I could have made them mean and stingy and we could have
created a situation in which they didn't get to use real money in
real ways and make their own decisions about their money, but I'm
THRILLED that we didn't do that.
My oldest is moving, and I'm not worried that he'll screw up his
finances. If he gets in debt, we'll help him by lending him money
cheap to get him out, but he would probably borrow directly himself,
from the credit union.
Oh. Kirby has a car and is paying his own insurance now. His uncle
died, and Kirby was given the car. It's in his name. He didn't have
to buy it, and we didn't buy it for him. He'll turn 21 soon.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...>
wrote:
we'd get a camper to travel (our dream retirement) and he could
have the house -
to move out and leave the house to one of my kids.
At one point we had an "extra" little cabin that Ray and George had
started to build that we thought of as "Ray's house". We figured at
some point he would want to move out of his mom's place but maybe
not be comfortable living with us, but he likes living here. He was
pretty floored a couple months ago when we started giving him an
allowance - "What's this?" "It's your cut of the family money" "Oh,
wow, that...really makes sense. Thanks."
Now the cabin's rented out to some friends of our - they're Ray's
friends, too, and he's happy to see the place being lived in by
people, rather than filling up with racoons and spiders.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
wrote:
> Our son piped up and said he'd like to have the house and propertyas it would be a great place to live when he has kids. We said OK
we'd get a camper to travel (our dream retirement) and he could
have the house -
>That's something I've thought of, too, that maybe *I'd* be the one
> Sooooooooooooo - we might be the ones moving out - LOL
to move out and leave the house to one of my kids.
At one point we had an "extra" little cabin that Ray and George had
started to build that we thought of as "Ray's house". We figured at
some point he would want to move out of his mom's place but maybe
not be comfortable living with us, but he likes living here. He was
pretty floored a couple months ago when we started giving him an
allowance - "What's this?" "It's your cut of the family money" "Oh,
wow, that...really makes sense. Thanks."
Now the cabin's rented out to some friends of our - they're Ray's
friends, too, and he's happy to see the place being lived in by
people, rather than filling up with racoons and spiders.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Amy
So, I just wanted to add that I am 36 and my Mom currently pays my
car insurance. I know how to pay my own, I could probably afford to
pay it myself, but my Mom likes to pay for it. She also likes to pay
for art classes for my daughter and me. My Dad pays for my cell phone
because he likes to be able to get ahold of us (his grandaughter,
really) at any time! Further, we are still always welcome to move in
with her and my Dad. I don't think generousity should end at a
certain age. There were times when I was younger that I didn't
appreciate it, but now I look back and appreciate them for so much.
Sometimes you don't get immediate gratification. We think it's fun
to sneak in to her house and clean it to show her our appreciation.
If I have extra money, I check to see if they need anything first.
What's most important to my parents is that everyone is doing okay.
Better than okay. Happy, satisfied. What's most important to me?
Same thing. My family will always be taken care of.
Thanks,
Amy
car insurance. I know how to pay my own, I could probably afford to
pay it myself, but my Mom likes to pay for it. She also likes to pay
for art classes for my daughter and me. My Dad pays for my cell phone
because he likes to be able to get ahold of us (his grandaughter,
really) at any time! Further, we are still always welcome to move in
with her and my Dad. I don't think generousity should end at a
certain age. There were times when I was younger that I didn't
appreciate it, but now I look back and appreciate them for so much.
Sometimes you don't get immediate gratification. We think it's fun
to sneak in to her house and clean it to show her our appreciation.
If I have extra money, I check to see if they need anything first.
What's most important to my parents is that everyone is doing okay.
Better than okay. Happy, satisfied. What's most important to me?
Same thing. My family will always be taken care of.
Thanks,
Amy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Ok, so what about other bills incurred by your teen living at
home?
> Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
> bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
> Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence?
>
> -=-Does it matter if they're working or not (so they HAVE money to
> contribute to their own bills)?-=-
>
>
Krisula Moyer
My mom used to say to me "The longer you stay home, the more money you can
save for your first place." She also paid for my share of my first
apartment while I was at university because she figured she'd be paying for
room and board if I had stayed in the dorms.
When my younger brother was in school she bought a condo near campus for him
instead of spending the money on RB at the college. His part was to manage
the place and he put alot of work into keeping it up and upgrades etc. He
got a great education just being the landlord for his roommates and then he
kept living there for several years after school. The original idea was
that it would be an investment for her but by the time he was ready to move
my mom was retired and in an OK place financially. She signed the condo
over to him so he could use the money as a down payment for his first house.
My mom's generosity was completely cheerful, and without strings. She
always made us feel like she was proud to help us out and when the time came
we should help our own kids as we are able. She grew up with a loving
generous family in a little house with aunts and uncles and grandparents and
a dirt floor. I am sure in her old age (she's pretty young still) she will
be welcome to live with any of us kids. None of us would allow her to be
left alone in a home.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
save for your first place." She also paid for my share of my first
apartment while I was at university because she figured she'd be paying for
room and board if I had stayed in the dorms.
When my younger brother was in school she bought a condo near campus for him
instead of spending the money on RB at the college. His part was to manage
the place and he put alot of work into keeping it up and upgrades etc. He
got a great education just being the landlord for his roommates and then he
kept living there for several years after school. The original idea was
that it would be an investment for her but by the time he was ready to move
my mom was retired and in an OK place financially. She signed the condo
over to him so he could use the money as a down payment for his first house.
My mom's generosity was completely cheerful, and without strings. She
always made us feel like she was proud to help us out and when the time came
we should help our own kids as we are able. She grew up with a loving
generous family in a little house with aunts and uncles and grandparents and
a dirt floor. I am sure in her old age (she's pretty young still) she will
be welcome to live with any of us kids. None of us would allow her to be
left alone in a home.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On Jul 13, 2007, at 10:23 AM, cecegary wrote:
it works for her kids because that's their personality. But most kids
aren't like that."
And that's true! Most kids are schooled. Most kids are conventionally
parented.
The success of mindful parenting isn't because it's done on
thoughtful kids. The success is because it nurtures thoughtfulness in
kids.
Kids who grow up with generosity become generous.
I think, though, that "generosity" might conjure up false images of
"indulgent" parents, parent who are always giving their kids stuff,
"indulging their whims". But that comes from a mindset of "It's mine.
I'll dole it out as I want to." And that mindset affects the
relationship. Kids know what they're given isn't given without
strings attached. There *will* be moments of resentful reckoning when
the kids have "gone too far." "Do you know how much I spent on that?"
"You don't know how good you've got it!" That's because its not being
given out of heart but because the parents think they should.
But with mindful parenting, helping each other is just part of living
life together. In the beginning parents will be doing the most
helping, but when help is freely given with no strings attached, then
we become people our kids want to help. It just becomes a way of life
to be generous with each other.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Ok, so what about other bills incurred by your teen living at home?I suspect that some might react to Sandra's reply with "Well, yeah,
> Should you also pay for their car insurance and gas (for the car you
> bought for them)? Cell phone? What about their entertainment money?
> Guitar lessons? Their every indulgence?
it works for her kids because that's their personality. But most kids
aren't like that."
And that's true! Most kids are schooled. Most kids are conventionally
parented.
The success of mindful parenting isn't because it's done on
thoughtful kids. The success is because it nurtures thoughtfulness in
kids.
Kids who grow up with generosity become generous.
I think, though, that "generosity" might conjure up false images of
"indulgent" parents, parent who are always giving their kids stuff,
"indulging their whims". But that comes from a mindset of "It's mine.
I'll dole it out as I want to." And that mindset affects the
relationship. Kids know what they're given isn't given without
strings attached. There *will* be moments of resentful reckoning when
the kids have "gone too far." "Do you know how much I spent on that?"
"You don't know how good you've got it!" That's because its not being
given out of heart but because the parents think they should.
But with mindful parenting, helping each other is just part of living
life together. In the beginning parents will be doing the most
helping, but when help is freely given with no strings attached, then
we become people our kids want to help. It just becomes a way of life
to be generous with each other.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
ticket, with Chamille's best friend. Chamille won't give her money
for her b-day because she knows it will be controlled or taken away
and the girl won't be able to use it how she wants to use it, if at
all. We've even given token presents and then given her real
present later on some outing or other.
We pay her way all the time because the parents won't and Chamille
really wants her to come, and so I work that expense in as part of
taking Chamille to whatever it is we are doing.
Chamille routinely spends money on her own clothes willingly. It
goes about half and half here. Sometimes, I don't have the money
for clothes and she does and doesn't mind spending hers, sometimes I
pay her back when I have it. She voluntarily offers money up when
we don't have enough to do something that everyone wants to do.
She's used gift cards on other people many times.
It's definitely the effects of sharing and openly being generous
when we can!
wrote:
>The girl's mom gave her $20.
> The mom of the other
> girl said she/mom wasn't going to pay for this concert, the girl
> would have to. The girl babysits lots, but doesn't get paid. >
>an
> Knowing this wasn't going to be forthcoming from the other family,
> adult friend of all involved gave Holly the price of that concerton
> ticket as a birthday gift to the other girl. I don't know if the
> other mom knows. The girl got $50 for her birthday, and her mom
> told her she could not take it to the concert, but had to spend it
> clothes.I could almost repeat this story word for word, substite concert
>
ticket, with Chamille's best friend. Chamille won't give her money
for her b-day because she knows it will be controlled or taken away
and the girl won't be able to use it how she wants to use it, if at
all. We've even given token presents and then given her real
present later on some outing or other.
We pay her way all the time because the parents won't and Chamille
really wants her to come, and so I work that expense in as part of
taking Chamille to whatever it is we are doing.
Chamille routinely spends money on her own clothes willingly. It
goes about half and half here. Sometimes, I don't have the money
for clothes and she does and doesn't mind spending hers, sometimes I
pay her back when I have it. She voluntarily offers money up when
we don't have enough to do something that everyone wants to do.
She's used gift cards on other people many times.
It's definitely the effects of sharing and openly being generous
when we can!
Thea LaCross
--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
In 2 weeks my son will be 13. I can't believe how many "he's a great
kid now, but just wait until he's a TEENager" comments we've heard the
last few months, as if he will be transfigured into a monster
overnight (the same people seem to be counting the months until their
kids are out of their hair.) I know I can't explain to them how
unconcerned about this I am.
Sadly, HE has dreaded becoming a teenager for years, thinking he would
somehow unwittingly become the rude, selfish, aggressive, awful person
all these people think teenagers are. But we enjoy him more every
day, and while I certainly see amazing changes going on in him I just
don't see how 13 years of attachment and joy are going to whither into
the sourness that seems to be so common between adults and young
people in our culture.
He'll stay as long as he wants to. We'll be happy to have him. I know
that we'll all help to keep the ship afloat in whatever manner we can
and need to. And THAT's the real life lesson.
Thea
wrote:
>teens...
> On 7/12/07, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >
> > Poor parents, missing a huge
> > opportunity for a lifelong relationship based on goodness and
> > generosity.
>
> This is my first thought when I hear of folks agonizing over their
In 2 weeks my son will be 13. I can't believe how many "he's a great
kid now, but just wait until he's a TEENager" comments we've heard the
last few months, as if he will be transfigured into a monster
overnight (the same people seem to be counting the months until their
kids are out of their hair.) I know I can't explain to them how
unconcerned about this I am.
Sadly, HE has dreaded becoming a teenager for years, thinking he would
somehow unwittingly become the rude, selfish, aggressive, awful person
all these people think teenagers are. But we enjoy him more every
day, and while I certainly see amazing changes going on in him I just
don't see how 13 years of attachment and joy are going to whither into
the sourness that seems to be so common between adults and young
people in our culture.
He'll stay as long as he wants to. We'll be happy to have him. I know
that we'll all help to keep the ship afloat in whatever manner we can
and need to. And THAT's the real life lesson.
Thea
Sandra Dodd
-=-We pay her way all the time because the parents won't and Chamille
really wants her to come, and so I work that expense in as part of
taking Chamille to whatever it is we are doing.-=-
We've done that with various kids at various times, too, but it
wasn't a problem. Sometimes we didn't go somewhere because we
couldn't afford to take all our kids and their friend or three, but
we just tried never to get grumpy about it, either way, and that helped.
Some of their friends who were hosted by us in various forms and ways
when they were 12, 14, 16, are well employed now, one owns a house,
and they've QUITE sufficiently "paid us back" in helping our kids
out, being friends with our family, helping me with various little
things when they're around.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
really wants her to come, and so I work that expense in as part of
taking Chamille to whatever it is we are doing.-=-
We've done that with various kids at various times, too, but it
wasn't a problem. Sometimes we didn't go somewhere because we
couldn't afford to take all our kids and their friend or three, but
we just tried never to get grumpy about it, either way, and that helped.
Some of their friends who were hosted by us in various forms and ways
when they were 12, 14, 16, are well employed now, one owns a house,
and they've QUITE sufficiently "paid us back" in helping our kids
out, being friends with our family, helping me with various little
things when they're around.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< The way it works at our house is that all our kids have earned money,
generosity residing in her children's hearts, I can tell a Marty story that
happened right in front of me at L&L.
Marty was about to join some friends for a meal out at a restaurant, and
Sandra offered him some money, reaching under the sales table for her purse.
He said to my best recollection, with his huge grin which I do remember, "I
don't need (or "you keep") your money. I'm a working man." And off he went.
Teenager refuses freely offered cash from mom. Alert the media.
It warmed my heart - again as so many Dodd family stories do.
<<<<Transitioning from the "free ride" to paying my
own bills was quite a shock. I think now that if I had been
transitioned into paying my own bills gradually over time, it wouldn't
have been so bad. I struggled with "adulthood" for many years before I
actually took full financial responsibility for myself. I think this
could have been avoided. >>>>
Making the kids pay for stuff, with the whole nasty feeling underlying
suspicion that the parents have been waiting all these years for the chance
to get some of their hard earned, possibly begrudged, money back at last,
does not have to be "the way" a shock could have been avoided. There are
other ways to avoid it, kind ways. Openess about the family finances is one
way.
Whenever there is an insistence, or coercion, or threat, or expectation,
what is lost is the opportunity for a gift, for an offering, from the
feeling of generosity and the enjoyment of taking responsibility - from and
by the child, I mean.
Every time we tell them what to do, we are preventing them from choosing,
evaluating and deciding what to do for themselves.
Robyn L. Coburn.
> and they go out to eat, buy games, go to movies with it, and treatJust in case anyone who has never met Sandra is doubtful about the true
> their friends if their friends are poorer. When they were younger
> and poorer, older or richer friends often paid for movies or meals or
> arcade play for them, and it flows back. >>>>
generosity residing in her children's hearts, I can tell a Marty story that
happened right in front of me at L&L.
Marty was about to join some friends for a meal out at a restaurant, and
Sandra offered him some money, reaching under the sales table for her purse.
He said to my best recollection, with his huge grin which I do remember, "I
don't need (or "you keep") your money. I'm a working man." And off he went.
Teenager refuses freely offered cash from mom. Alert the media.
It warmed my heart - again as so many Dodd family stories do.
<<<<Transitioning from the "free ride" to paying my
own bills was quite a shock. I think now that if I had been
transitioned into paying my own bills gradually over time, it wouldn't
have been so bad. I struggled with "adulthood" for many years before I
actually took full financial responsibility for myself. I think this
could have been avoided. >>>>
Making the kids pay for stuff, with the whole nasty feeling underlying
suspicion that the parents have been waiting all these years for the chance
to get some of their hard earned, possibly begrudged, money back at last,
does not have to be "the way" a shock could have been avoided. There are
other ways to avoid it, kind ways. Openess about the family finances is one
way.
Whenever there is an insistence, or coercion, or threat, or expectation,
what is lost is the opportunity for a gift, for an offering, from the
feeling of generosity and the enjoyment of taking responsibility - from and
by the child, I mean.
Every time we tell them what to do, we are preventing them from choosing,
evaluating and deciding what to do for themselves.
Robyn L. Coburn.
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< > That's something I've thought of, too, that maybe *I'd* be the one
Sydney. But then she sold the condo and I stayed in one of the two little
houses she bought.
It never felt good though. There was always the reminder that I was living
rent free under her sufferance. She soon sold that one too. It wasn't like a
long beloved family home with any security of tenure. When I paid my own way
I was buying freedom from her controlling attitudes.
Robyn L. Coburn
> to move out and leave the house to one of my kids. >>>>My mother moved out - she moved to Texas and I stayed in our condo in
Sydney. But then she sold the condo and I stayed in one of the two little
houses she bought.
It never felt good though. There was always the reminder that I was living
rent free under her sufferance. She soon sold that one too. It wasn't like a
long beloved family home with any security of tenure. When I paid my own way
I was buying freedom from her controlling attitudes.
Robyn L. Coburn
Sandra Dodd
I forgot to answer the question about who pays for the gasoline.
Usually the kids, sometimes us.
If I ask Marty to do errands for me or take Holly somewhere (which is
not necessary much anymore, as she's driving now), I'll offer him my
debit card to get gas if he needs it.
Sometimes Keith, when he's going to Costco, will the car with the
least gasoline and fill it up while he's there.
Kirby pays 1/3 of the DSL line (and now that he's leaving... I don't
know if we'll renegotiate with Marty or what).
We don't have "a rule" about who pays for what, but there's an
assumption that someone using a car will not bring it back empty.
For a while Kirby was always driving our biggest car (a Chevy
conversion van) which wasn't really fair gas-wise. He ported gamer
friends, and kept a store of board games in the back all the time but
it's WAY expensive, so once in a while Keith would put a tank to it.
Lately it costs $90 to fill that van, so nobody's driving it casually.
When Kirby leaves, Marty will be the primary driver of the Saturn,
because Holly can't drive a stick shift. But our old mini van (my
most regular vehicle) doesn't have working air conditioning, so for
the rest of the summer I'll be using the Saturn some, if I know I'll
be back before Marty uses it. So I'll offer him money sometimes, for
having driven up some of the gas he bought.
Fluidity. Flux.
Sandra
Usually the kids, sometimes us.
If I ask Marty to do errands for me or take Holly somewhere (which is
not necessary much anymore, as she's driving now), I'll offer him my
debit card to get gas if he needs it.
Sometimes Keith, when he's going to Costco, will the car with the
least gasoline and fill it up while he's there.
Kirby pays 1/3 of the DSL line (and now that he's leaving... I don't
know if we'll renegotiate with Marty or what).
We don't have "a rule" about who pays for what, but there's an
assumption that someone using a car will not bring it back empty.
For a while Kirby was always driving our biggest car (a Chevy
conversion van) which wasn't really fair gas-wise. He ported gamer
friends, and kept a store of board games in the back all the time but
it's WAY expensive, so once in a while Keith would put a tank to it.
Lately it costs $90 to fill that van, so nobody's driving it casually.
When Kirby leaves, Marty will be the primary driver of the Saturn,
because Holly can't drive a stick shift. But our old mini van (my
most regular vehicle) doesn't have working air conditioning, so for
the rest of the summer I'll be using the Saturn some, if I know I'll
be back before Marty uses it. So I'll offer him money sometimes, for
having driven up some of the gas he bought.
Fluidity. Flux.
Sandra
Susan
-=- So, I just wanted to add that I am 36 and my Mom currently pays my
car insurance. I know how to pay my own, I could probably afford to
pay it myself, but my Mom likes to pay for it. She also likes to pay
for art classes for my daughter and me. My Dad pays for my cell phone
<snip> What's most important to my parents is that everyone is doing
okay. Better than okay. Happy, satisfied. What's most important to
me? Same thing. My family will always be taken care of. -=-
Same here. We're married with 2 kids and my mom still pays for our
cell phone bill occasionally. We're on a family share plan with her,
my dad and my sister. Sometimes we pay for our part, sometimes she
wants to pay for the whole thing. Until last year she also paid our
car insurance and did so for several years just because she wanted to.
She's loaned us money and let us put things on her credit cards.
We lived with dh's family for a while and they never let us give them
$$ although they were happy to let us contribute in other ways. Both
sides of our extended family have been generous to us - over the years
they've paid electric bills when times were tight and have even helped
us buy a car. DH's mom used to slip twenties into our coat pockets
just because she could. The things we need but can't afford often
"magically" manifest themselves in the form of birthday and holiday
presents.
We really appreciate all they've done and are glad we aren't made to
feel guilty about accepting or needing help from time to time. We plan
to continue that goodwill with our own kids. I can't imagine kicking
them out or "cutting them off" at 18 or 21 or 30 or...
~ Susan
car insurance. I know how to pay my own, I could probably afford to
pay it myself, but my Mom likes to pay for it. She also likes to pay
for art classes for my daughter and me. My Dad pays for my cell phone
<snip> What's most important to my parents is that everyone is doing
okay. Better than okay. Happy, satisfied. What's most important to
me? Same thing. My family will always be taken care of. -=-
Same here. We're married with 2 kids and my mom still pays for our
cell phone bill occasionally. We're on a family share plan with her,
my dad and my sister. Sometimes we pay for our part, sometimes she
wants to pay for the whole thing. Until last year she also paid our
car insurance and did so for several years just because she wanted to.
She's loaned us money and let us put things on her credit cards.
We lived with dh's family for a while and they never let us give them
$$ although they were happy to let us contribute in other ways. Both
sides of our extended family have been generous to us - over the years
they've paid electric bills when times were tight and have even helped
us buy a car. DH's mom used to slip twenties into our coat pockets
just because she could. The things we need but can't afford often
"magically" manifest themselves in the form of birthday and holiday
presents.
We really appreciate all they've done and are glad we aren't made to
feel guilty about accepting or needing help from time to time. We plan
to continue that goodwill with our own kids. I can't imagine kicking
them out or "cutting them off" at 18 or 21 or 30 or...
~ Susan
cecegary
Interesting responses from everyone. Thanks. Some things I asked
about our 18 (almost 19) year old pays for already (gas, guitar-
related gear, entertainment - meaning eating out with his friends,
dating, movies, etc.), but I was interested to know where everyone
else stood on them.
Other info about our situation is that he just graduated from high
school in June, is working full-time, and does not plan to attend
college. He received about $10,000 cash as gifts from family &
friends for his graduation, which he used to buy a car (since the one
we gave him died about a month before graduation), and a new guitar
amp. He still has some in his account. We asked him to start paying
for his own car insurance with his new car, but were able to get him
an incredible deal by putting the car in my husband's name and adding
it to our policy with our son as the primary driver. He pays about
1/3rd of what his friends pay, and he has better insurance. He's
happy with that arrangement.
Last summer he and I did a little budget for him that included
calculating how much gas it cost to go from an apartment of his
choice to work/church/guitar lessons/downtown/etc. and it was a real
eye-opener for him. He decided then and there that he would just
continue living with us for a while. Fair enough. I told him he was
always welcome in our home, and that he could stay as long as he
wanted.
What I had been thinking was that in the fall we might sit down with
him and talk about handing over some of his other bills that he will
take with him when he moves out (guitar lessons, health insurance),
but not go so far as to charge him rent or board (things he would not
take with him).
What I can see now is that my negative feelings about my late
transition into financial responsibility for myself have more to do
with the strings that always came attached to the money my parents
provided for me. Their money meant their control over me, and it
still bothers me even now to think about how it was. Even though we
don't do that to our kids, I guess I have been thinking (heavily
laden with my own baggage) that surely our 18 year old would want
more independence from us by paying his own bills. Thanks for opening
my eyes to that. I've decided to just leave everything the way it is
for now. If we're still in the same spot in a couple of years,
though, we'll have to talk. :) (I can't really see that happening.
Things always change.)
Chelsea
about our 18 (almost 19) year old pays for already (gas, guitar-
related gear, entertainment - meaning eating out with his friends,
dating, movies, etc.), but I was interested to know where everyone
else stood on them.
Other info about our situation is that he just graduated from high
school in June, is working full-time, and does not plan to attend
college. He received about $10,000 cash as gifts from family &
friends for his graduation, which he used to buy a car (since the one
we gave him died about a month before graduation), and a new guitar
amp. He still has some in his account. We asked him to start paying
for his own car insurance with his new car, but were able to get him
an incredible deal by putting the car in my husband's name and adding
it to our policy with our son as the primary driver. He pays about
1/3rd of what his friends pay, and he has better insurance. He's
happy with that arrangement.
Last summer he and I did a little budget for him that included
calculating how much gas it cost to go from an apartment of his
choice to work/church/guitar lessons/downtown/etc. and it was a real
eye-opener for him. He decided then and there that he would just
continue living with us for a while. Fair enough. I told him he was
always welcome in our home, and that he could stay as long as he
wanted.
What I had been thinking was that in the fall we might sit down with
him and talk about handing over some of his other bills that he will
take with him when he moves out (guitar lessons, health insurance),
but not go so far as to charge him rent or board (things he would not
take with him).
What I can see now is that my negative feelings about my late
transition into financial responsibility for myself have more to do
with the strings that always came attached to the money my parents
provided for me. Their money meant their control over me, and it
still bothers me even now to think about how it was. Even though we
don't do that to our kids, I guess I have been thinking (heavily
laden with my own baggage) that surely our 18 year old would want
more independence from us by paying his own bills. Thanks for opening
my eyes to that. I've decided to just leave everything the way it is
for now. If we're still in the same spot in a couple of years,
though, we'll have to talk. :) (I can't really see that happening.
Things always change.)
Chelsea