Religion question
Sandra Dodd
This isn't about current religion, but about prehistoric and
instinctive religion.
Holly asked me yesterday, and we were starting to discuss it, and
then Keith and Marty wanted to show us a concrete job they had just
finished, and invite Holly to put something in the wet concrete, so
we got distracted.
She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
religions are sun-based.
Good question.
I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
What else?
Bears (the Ainu, the indigenous people of Japan)
Ancestors (Chinese and thereabout??)
There are some lesser sacred-animal or sacred-object situations I
don't think qualify as "worship": cows in Delhi, monkeys at some one
temple in India, cats in ancient Egypt?? There are "sacred groves"
here and there, so reverence for a particular spot goes on.
I suppose it's the same with trees in northern Europe. They didn't
"worship trees," but they had aome sacred tree business: Evergreens
in the house in the winter, and a tree nailed to the roofbeam of a
house under construction. "Knock on wood."
Oh! Reverence for a place! Mecca. Jerusalem. Mt. Fuji.
I guess neo-Pagans worship an ideal, personified earth.
What else can I tell Holly?
Sandra
instinctive religion.
Holly asked me yesterday, and we were starting to discuss it, and
then Keith and Marty wanted to show us a concrete job they had just
finished, and invite Holly to put something in the wet concrete, so
we got distracted.
She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
religions are sun-based.
Good question.
I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
What else?
Bears (the Ainu, the indigenous people of Japan)
Ancestors (Chinese and thereabout??)
There are some lesser sacred-animal or sacred-object situations I
don't think qualify as "worship": cows in Delhi, monkeys at some one
temple in India, cats in ancient Egypt?? There are "sacred groves"
here and there, so reverence for a particular spot goes on.
I suppose it's the same with trees in northern Europe. They didn't
"worship trees," but they had aome sacred tree business: Evergreens
in the house in the winter, and a tree nailed to the roofbeam of a
house under construction. "Knock on wood."
Oh! Reverence for a place! Mecca. Jerusalem. Mt. Fuji.
I guess neo-Pagans worship an ideal, personified earth.
What else can I tell Holly?
Sandra
Cathy
What else have people worshipped?
* Horses (and as a horse lover I can understand why!!!) look up
Uffington White horse and also the Iceni. There is an excellent novel by
Rosemary Sutcliff about Uffingotn White Horse called White Horse, Moon
Horse. Well worth reading.
* Standing stones?? (What were they really used for? Here in England,
I particularly like Castlerigg, but of course Stonehenge is the most famous)
Cathy
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: 09 July 2007 04:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Religion question
This isn't about current religion, but about prehistoric and
instinctive religion.
Holly asked me yesterday, and we were starting to discuss it, and
then Keith and Marty wanted to show us a concrete job they had just
finished, and invite Holly to put something in the wet concrete, so
we got distracted.
She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
religions are sun-based.
Good question.
I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
What else?
Bears (the Ainu, the indigenous people of Japan)
Ancestors (Chinese and thereabout??)
There are some lesser sacred-animal or sacred-object situations I
don't think qualify as "worship": cows in Delhi, monkeys at some one
temple in India, cats in ancient Egypt?? There are "sacred groves"
here and there, so reverence for a particular spot goes on.
I suppose it's the same with trees in northern Europe. They didn't
"worship trees," but they had aome sacred tree business: Evergreens
in the house in the winter, and a tree nailed to the roofbeam of a
house under construction. "Knock on wood."
Oh! Reverence for a place! Mecca. Jerusalem. Mt. Fuji.
I guess neo-Pagans worship an ideal, personified earth.
What else can I tell Holly?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
* Horses (and as a horse lover I can understand why!!!) look up
Uffington White horse and also the Iceni. There is an excellent novel by
Rosemary Sutcliff about Uffingotn White Horse called White Horse, Moon
Horse. Well worth reading.
* Standing stones?? (What were they really used for? Here in England,
I particularly like Castlerigg, but of course Stonehenge is the most famous)
Cathy
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: 09 July 2007 04:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Religion question
This isn't about current religion, but about prehistoric and
instinctive religion.
Holly asked me yesterday, and we were starting to discuss it, and
then Keith and Marty wanted to show us a concrete job they had just
finished, and invite Holly to put something in the wet concrete, so
we got distracted.
She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
religions are sun-based.
Good question.
I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
What else?
Bears (the Ainu, the indigenous people of Japan)
Ancestors (Chinese and thereabout??)
There are some lesser sacred-animal or sacred-object situations I
don't think qualify as "worship": cows in Delhi, monkeys at some one
temple in India, cats in ancient Egypt?? There are "sacred groves"
here and there, so reverence for a particular spot goes on.
I suppose it's the same with trees in northern Europe. They didn't
"worship trees," but they had aome sacred tree business: Evergreens
in the house in the winter, and a tree nailed to the roofbeam of a
house under construction. "Knock on wood."
Oh! Reverence for a place! Mecca. Jerusalem. Mt. Fuji.
I guess neo-Pagans worship an ideal, personified earth.
What else can I tell Holly?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Ahh, but Carhenge in Alliance, Nebraska is a pretty cool thing as well. And
there is much better access.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
there is much better access.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cathy" <cathy@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Religion question
> What else have people worshipped?
>
> * Horses (and as a horse lover I can understand why!!!) look up
> Uffington White horse and also the Iceni. There is an excellent novel by
> Rosemary Sutcliff about Uffingotn White Horse called White Horse, Moon
> Horse. Well worth reading.
> * Standing stones?? (What were they really used for? Here in England,
> I particularly like Castlerigg, but of course Stonehenge is the most
> famous)
>
>
>
> Cathy
>
> _____
>
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
> Sent: 09 July 2007 04:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Religion question
>
>
>
> This isn't about current religion, but about prehistoric and
> instinctive religion.
>
> Holly asked me yesterday, and we were starting to discuss it, and
> then Keith and Marty wanted to show us a concrete job they had just
> finished, and invite Holly to put something in the wet concrete, so
> we got distracted.
>
> She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
> fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
> religions are sun-based.
>
> Good question.
>
> I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
>
> What else?
>
> Bears (the Ainu, the indigenous people of Japan)
> Ancestors (Chinese and thereabout??)
>
> There are some lesser sacred-animal or sacred-object situations I
> don't think qualify as "worship": cows in Delhi, monkeys at some one
> temple in India, cats in ancient Egypt?? There are "sacred groves"
> here and there, so reverence for a particular spot goes on.
>
> I suppose it's the same with trees in northern Europe. They didn't
> "worship trees," but they had aome sacred tree business: Evergreens
> in the house in the winter, and a tree nailed to the roofbeam of a
> house under construction. "Knock on wood."
>
> Oh! Reverence for a place! Mecca. Jerusalem. Mt. Fuji.
>
> I guess neo-Pagans worship an ideal, personified earth.
>
> What else can I tell Holly?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Schuyler
I know you know of them (there is some reference in the amazing reference
site that is sandradodd.com), but Cargo Cults are such a cool way of looking
at belief.
Looking for a population that I can only vaguely remember I found an article
by Robert Sapolsky on how environment defines belief:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=797
Here's a quote:
Begin with religious beliefs. A striking proportion of rain forest dwellers
are polytheistic, worshipping an array of spirits and gods. Polytheism is
prevalent among tribes in the Amazon basin (the Sherenti, Mundurucu, and
Tapirape) and in the rain forests of Africa (the Ndorobo), New Guinea (the
Keraki and Ulawans), and Southeast Asia (the Iban of Borneo and the Mnong
Gar and Lolo of Vietnam). But desert dwellers-the bedouin of Arabia, the
Berbers of the western Sahara, the !Kung of the Kalahari Desert, the Nuer
and Turkana of the Kenyan/Sudanese desert-are usually monotheistic. Of
course, despite allegiances to a single deity, other supernatural beings may
be involved, like angels and djinns and Satan. But the hierarchy is notable,
with minor deities subservient to the Omnipotent One.
This division makes ecological sense. Deserts teach large, singular lessons,
like how tough, spare, and withholding the environment is; the world is
reduced to simple, desiccated, furnace-blasted basics. Then picture rain
forest people amid an abundance of edible plants and medicinal herbs, able
to identify more species of ants on a single tree than one would find in all
the British Isles. Letting a thousand deities bloom in this sort of setting
must seem natural. Moreover, those rain forest dwellers that are
monotheistic are much less likely to believe that their god sticks his or
her nose into other people's business by controlling the weather, prompting
illness, or the like. In contrast, the desert seems to breed fatalism, a
belief in an interventionist god with its own capricious plans.
-----------
Oh, and wandering through The TED one day I found an excerpt of Julia
Sweeney's solo performance "Letting Go of God" which is an interesting look
at her own faith: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/86
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
site that is sandradodd.com), but Cargo Cults are such a cool way of looking
at belief.
Looking for a population that I can only vaguely remember I found an article
by Robert Sapolsky on how environment defines belief:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=797
Here's a quote:
Begin with religious beliefs. A striking proportion of rain forest dwellers
are polytheistic, worshipping an array of spirits and gods. Polytheism is
prevalent among tribes in the Amazon basin (the Sherenti, Mundurucu, and
Tapirape) and in the rain forests of Africa (the Ndorobo), New Guinea (the
Keraki and Ulawans), and Southeast Asia (the Iban of Borneo and the Mnong
Gar and Lolo of Vietnam). But desert dwellers-the bedouin of Arabia, the
Berbers of the western Sahara, the !Kung of the Kalahari Desert, the Nuer
and Turkana of the Kenyan/Sudanese desert-are usually monotheistic. Of
course, despite allegiances to a single deity, other supernatural beings may
be involved, like angels and djinns and Satan. But the hierarchy is notable,
with minor deities subservient to the Omnipotent One.
This division makes ecological sense. Deserts teach large, singular lessons,
like how tough, spare, and withholding the environment is; the world is
reduced to simple, desiccated, furnace-blasted basics. Then picture rain
forest people amid an abundance of edible plants and medicinal herbs, able
to identify more species of ants on a single tree than one would find in all
the British Isles. Letting a thousand deities bloom in this sort of setting
must seem natural. Moreover, those rain forest dwellers that are
monotheistic are much less likely to believe that their god sticks his or
her nose into other people's business by controlling the weather, prompting
illness, or the like. In contrast, the desert seems to breed fatalism, a
belief in an interventionist god with its own capricious plans.
-----------
Oh, and wandering through The TED one day I found an excerpt of Julia
Sweeney's solo performance "Letting Go of God" which is an interesting look
at her own faith: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/86
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:20 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Religion question
> This isn't about current religion, but about prehistoric and
> instinctive religion.
>
> Holly asked me yesterday, and we were starting to discuss it, and
> then Keith and Marty wanted to show us a concrete job they had just
> finished, and invite Holly to put something in the wet concrete, so
> we got distracted.
>
> She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
> fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
> religions are sun-based.
>
> Good question.
>
> I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
>
> What else?
>
> Bears (the Ainu, the indigenous people of Japan)
> Ancestors (Chinese and thereabout??)
>
>
> There are some lesser sacred-animal or sacred-object situations I
> don't think qualify as "worship": cows in Delhi, monkeys at some one
> temple in India, cats in ancient Egypt?? There are "sacred groves"
> here and there, so reverence for a particular spot goes on.
>
> I suppose it's the same with trees in northern Europe. They didn't
> "worship trees," but they had aome sacred tree business: Evergreens
> in the house in the winter, and a tree nailed to the roofbeam of a
> house under construction. "Knock on wood."
>
> Oh! Reverence for a place! Mecca. Jerusalem. Mt. Fuji.
>
> I guess neo-Pagans worship an ideal, personified earth.
>
> What else can I tell Holly?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than the
http://www.didjshop.com/shop1/AbCulturecart.html
"The hallmark of Aboriginal culture is 'oneness with nature'. In traditional
Aboriginal belief systems, nature and landscape are comparable in importance
to the bible in Christian culture. Prominent rocks, canyons, rivers,
waterfalls, islands, beaches and other natural features - as well as sun,
moon, visible stars and animals - have their own stories of creation and
inter-connectedness. To the traditional Aborigine they are all sacred:
environment is the essence of Australian Aboriginal godliness."
About Aborigine spirituality, including a lot about the concept of the
Dreaming (scroll down):
http://www.dreamtime.net.au/indigenous/spirituality.cfm
"The Dreamtime or Dreaming is often used to describe the time when the earth
and humans and animals were created. The Dreaming is also used by
individuals to refer to their own dreaming or their community's dreaming.
During the Dreaming, ancestral spirits came to earth and created the
landforms, the animals and plants. The stories tell how the ancestral
spirits moved through the land creating rivers, lakes and mountains. Today
we know the places where the ancestral spirits have been and where they came
to rest. There are explanations of how people came to Australia and the
links between the groups throughout Australia. There are explanations about
how people learnt languages and dance and how they came to know about fire."
A page with a lot of links about Australian Aboriginies or the Koori
people, as they call themselves:
http://www.bloorstreet.com/300block/aborintl.htm#4
Robyn L. Coburn
> fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not allAustralian Aborigines:
> religions are sun-based.
>
> Good question.
>
> I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
>
> What else? >>>
http://www.didjshop.com/shop1/AbCulturecart.html
"The hallmark of Aboriginal culture is 'oneness with nature'. In traditional
Aboriginal belief systems, nature and landscape are comparable in importance
to the bible in Christian culture. Prominent rocks, canyons, rivers,
waterfalls, islands, beaches and other natural features - as well as sun,
moon, visible stars and animals - have their own stories of creation and
inter-connectedness. To the traditional Aborigine they are all sacred:
environment is the essence of Australian Aboriginal godliness."
About Aborigine spirituality, including a lot about the concept of the
Dreaming (scroll down):
http://www.dreamtime.net.au/indigenous/spirituality.cfm
"The Dreamtime or Dreaming is often used to describe the time when the earth
and humans and animals were created. The Dreaming is also used by
individuals to refer to their own dreaming or their community's dreaming.
During the Dreaming, ancestral spirits came to earth and created the
landforms, the animals and plants. The stories tell how the ancestral
spirits moved through the land creating rivers, lakes and mountains. Today
we know the places where the ancestral spirits have been and where they came
to rest. There are explanations of how people came to Australia and the
links between the groups throughout Australia. There are explanations about
how people learnt languages and dance and how they came to know about fire."
A page with a lot of links about Australian Aboriginies or the Koori
people, as they call themselves:
http://www.bloorstreet.com/300block/aborintl.htm#4
Robyn L. Coburn
Susan
> She asked if it's instinctive to think the sky is better than theStatutes, carvings, and other items paying homage to the feminine have
> fiery underground, what else have people worshipped, since not all
> religions are sun-based.
> I said trees, and rocks... then we took off for the concrete project.
> What else?
been found throughout the world, some dating as far back as 25,000
years ago. The feminine form was revered and seen as representative of
either a symbolic or literal great mother.
~ Susan
[email protected]
There are two religions I think of as "religions of thoughts/ideas" - Taoism and Confucianism. Neither have deities to worship, but have concepts to follow.
"Tao" is translated as "The Way" which means there is an "underlying spiritual force of the universe, which is present in all things, yet greater than all things" (from Usborne Encyclopedia of World Religions). There's a link here http://tinyurl.com/yp3f77 which explains Tao concepts. (I've always thought some aspects of Taoism and unschooling were similar. Taoism's "Wu Wei" says that one must act naturally without interfering with the process of life - nothing should be forced and one should not attempt to control events.)
Confucianism began as advice for the Chinese emperors. Many of Confucious's sayings speak to correct behavior and avoiding extreme emotions to keep balance and harmony; it's more about good citizenship. Confucianism does include the worship of ancestors that you mentioned, Sandra, and reverence for family. This link mentions his founding of (basically) a public school:
http://tinyurl.com/29tm5n
Related, yet unrelated. Unschooling and schooling. Huh!
Robin B.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
"Tao" is translated as "The Way" which means there is an "underlying spiritual force of the universe, which is present in all things, yet greater than all things" (from Usborne Encyclopedia of World Religions). There's a link here http://tinyurl.com/yp3f77 which explains Tao concepts. (I've always thought some aspects of Taoism and unschooling were similar. Taoism's "Wu Wei" says that one must act naturally without interfering with the process of life - nothing should be forced and one should not attempt to control events.)
Confucianism began as advice for the Chinese emperors. Many of Confucious's sayings speak to correct behavior and avoiding extreme emotions to keep balance and harmony; it's more about good citizenship. Confucianism does include the worship of ancestors that you mentioned, Sandra, and reverence for family. This link mentions his founding of (basically) a public school:
http://tinyurl.com/29tm5n
Related, yet unrelated. Unschooling and schooling. Huh!
Robin B.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> This isn't about current religion, but about prehistoric and[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> instinctive religion.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know you know of them (there is some reference in the amazing
reference
site that is sandradodd.com), but Cargo Cults are such a cool way of
looking
at belief.-=-
I thought about the cargo cults, but I don't think they're
"worshipping" air strips. Revering? Begging? Trying to lure
airplanes? But there are people trying to lure aliens to earth too,
or looking for them with radio receiving equipment, and they don't
"worship" aliens.
-=Looking for a population that I can only vaguely remember I found
an article
by Robert Sapolsky on how environment defines belief:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=797-=-
Ah.
Robert Sapolsky is discussed/quoted at sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
Very interesting, and thanks!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reference
site that is sandradodd.com), but Cargo Cults are such a cool way of
looking
at belief.-=-
I thought about the cargo cults, but I don't think they're
"worshipping" air strips. Revering? Begging? Trying to lure
airplanes? But there are people trying to lure aliens to earth too,
or looking for them with radio receiving equipment, and they don't
"worship" aliens.
-=Looking for a population that I can only vaguely remember I found
an article
by Robert Sapolsky on how environment defines belief:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=797-=-
Ah.
Robert Sapolsky is discussed/quoted at sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
Very interesting, and thanks!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
> I thought about the cargo cults, but I don't think they'reI went looking when I mentioned Cargo Cults and found two that are still in
> "worshipping" air strips. Revering? Begging? Trying to lure
> airplanes? But there are people trying to lure aliens to earth too,
> or looking for them with radio receiving equipment, and they don't
> "worship" aliens.
>
existence The John Frum Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum)
which worships John Frum. They believe that John Frum will come back someday
and bring them cargo. I found someone's description of visiting the John
Frum community who said that they can get John Frum to come more quickly by
looking more like a militry base and by singing songs that reference things
going on in the U.S. There is another cult called the Prince Philip
Movement, apparently a splinter group of the John Frum group.
http://www.tiny.cc/0TCB5
I suppose just like any other religion they are praying for favor from an
individual. The cool thing is that it is based on actual evidence of favor.
Cargo did come. They did get something falling from the skies. There was
manna from heaven. Of course they hadn't done anything to court that favor,
so it is a bit of the having the cart before the horse.
That's what I find cool about Cargo Cults, they are sort of a window into
how a random event could create a religion.
Schuyler
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], "Schuyler" <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
Smithsonian or National Geographic, not too long ago.
On basically the same topic...I got a spam e-mail telling me I had
an "e-card from a Worshipper!" So now I'm a religious icon. I could
start my own cult...
Ria
wrote:
> I went looking when I mentioned Cargo Cults and found two that arestill in
> existence The John Frum MovementThere was an article on this one in a magazine, it was either
Smithsonian or National Geographic, not too long ago.
On basically the same topic...I got a spam e-mail telling me I had
an "e-card from a Worshipper!" So now I'm a religious icon. I could
start my own cult...
Ria
Nancy Machaj
Animism :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
The belief in souls. And sometimes, attributing souls to non-human
entities (from the link)
Nancy
*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
The belief in souls. And sometimes, attributing souls to non-human
entities (from the link)
Nancy
*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Oh, that reminds me..In Japan you can get your car blessed. I'm sure in more
countries than Japan, but David has first hand experience of it. Here's an
article
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/nagasaki/stories/suwashrine.html
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
countries than Japan, but David has first hand experience of it. Here's an
article
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/nagasaki/stories/suwashrine.html
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Machaj" <nmachaj@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re:Religion question
> Animism :
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
>
> The belief in souls. And sometimes, attributing souls to non-human
> entities (from the link)
>
> Nancy
>
>
> *****
> blogging at:
> http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>