Sandra Dodd

-=-To me I assumed this meant you did not want this discussion on
your list.-=

I didn't want it privately either.

The analogy I have in mind about people who send private e-mail is this:
This meeting is private. Anyone's welcome to come. They can even
come up and take the mic and speak. But if the speeches aren't in
keeping with the purpose of the meeting, the mic might be taken away
from them early, or they'll be asked to listen for a while.

Speeches are to be supportive of the principles of unschooling, not
just be about anything in the whole wide world. It's an unschooling
meeting.

If someone doesn't like the way the meeting went, they can just not
come back next week (as it were). They should NOT follow someone
home and accost her on her own front porch, which is what it can feel
like when someone who made a public speech/post is then addressed
privately and critically about it.

Stay in the light of the whole list, and if a listowner asks you not
to discuss something, it's not a negotiable point. It's a request
for you to let the mic go to those who are speaking from an
unschooling point of view.

I don't need to provide a forum for people to say unschooling sucks,
that we're wrong and that nothing we do is any better than whatever
any other family chooses to do. There's no benefit to anyone to
bring other messages here. It won't help them understand unschooling
and it won't help those many other dozens or hundreds who are just
reading and not writing.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Again though, I have to do what I feel is best for my son and my
family and
I would hope that the people on a group like this would be respectful of
that fact.-=-

"Respectful" meaning accepting of all choices as equally valid?

http://sandradodd.com/priorities

If the priority in one's life or in a discussion is unschooling, then
suggestions that lead toward unschooling are superior (for purposes
of that discussion or in that family) to suggestions and decisions
that will hamper unschooling.

-=- I signed up for this group hoping that the folks weren't so
judgmental as the bible beaters I usually run into on the local groups
around us so I could speak a little more freely - guess that isn't the
case."
-=-

You DID speak freely, and the posts were allowed through to the list.
If you want to express yourself and be praised instead of questioned,
then you need to figure out what a particular group considers
praiseworthy and express that, or at least don't express what they
will question.

If you got to a vegetarian workshop and say you don't see any problem
with hotdogs, don't be surprised if they tell you the problems they see.
If you go to a Harley enthusiasts' rally and say you think there's no
real difference between a Kawasaki and a Harley, they will probably
disagree with you.

Comparing us to "bible beaters" (and PLEASE, the term is "Bible
thumpers"--get it straight) isn't helpful at all.

Sandra

alexandriapalonia

I know you have a great love for words, so I thought I'd mention this:
"Bible beater" is a widely used term that means the same thing as
"Bible thumper."

It seems to be a more east-coast term, but there's plenty of folks out
there using it in lieu of "Bible thumper."

Andrea


> Comparing us to "bible beaters" (and PLEASE, the term is "Bible
> thumpers"--get it straight) isn't helpful at all.
>
> Sandra
>S600

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know you have a great love for words, so I thought I'd mention
this:
"Bible beater" is a widely used term that means the same thing as
"Bible thumper."-=-

Okay, thanks. I didn't know the term.

It might be being used in lieu of, instead of, but it doesn't "mean
the same thing," and I'm guessing was first used by people who didn't
know thump from thrash. To stab a finger onto a page and say "RIGHT
HERE, in God's Holy Word" is a thump. To hold the Bible up and tap
it and use it as a symbol of direct-from-Jesus-in-17th-century-
English gospel is to thump it. It's not to beat it.

There are those among the "lower church" protestants who worship the
book itself, and they point at it and touch it for emphasis. It's
goofy but it has a basis in reality. "Bible beaters" doesn't make
sense. Sorry.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Here in New Zealand, the most commonly used term is "bible basher". I
think it is meant as a person who metaphorically "bashes (or beats, I
guess) you over the head with a bible" i.e. to do just what a bible
thumper does.

The reality is pretty offensive which ever term you use!

Cally

Sandra Dodd

-=-I
think it is meant as a person who metaphorically "bashes (or beats, I
guess) you over the head with a bible" i.e. to do just what a bible
thumper does.-=-

Bible thumpers thump Bibles; they don't thump people with Bibles.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

On Jun 17, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Bible thumpers thump Bibles; they don't thump people with Bibles.

I've certainly felt attacked with Bible quotes though.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Bible thumpers thump Bibles; they don't thump people with Bibles.

I've certainly felt attacked with Bible quotes though.
-=-

Yeah, I did think of that...
They'll beat you up with threats of hell.

Do unschoolers do that? Do we say "repent now or the horrors of
school will be eternally upon you"?

Maybe.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan

> It might be being used in lieu of, instead of, but it doesn't "mean
> the same thing," and I'm guessing was first used by people who didn't
> know thump from thrash. To stab a finger onto a page and say "RIGHT
> HERE, in God's Holy Word" is a thump. To hold the Bible up and tap
> it and use it as a symbol of direct-from-Jesus-in-17th-century-
> English gospel is to thump it. It's not to beat it. <snip> "Bible beaters" doesn't make
> sense.

I must have missed out on the first part of this thread (or my
messages are being delivered out of order again from Yahoo) but as
Andrea pointed out, "bible beaters" is a commonly used phrase on parts
of the east coast (where I live) and it does make sense if you were to
witness this phrase in action.

The folks here don't thump at a passage with a finger, they don't hold
it up and tap it - there are many denominations - particularly the
very conservative ones - that hold the bible in one hand or place it
on their lap or the podium and literally beat the bible with their
fist as they talk. They also tend to smack and pound it on the podium,
the backs of the pews, and anything else that happens to be nearby
when preaching or discussing it passionately. This behavior is why the
phrases "bible beaters" and "beat the bible into them" and other such
similar sayings are heard around this area.

-- Susan, with the east coast bible-belt perspective

Dawn

For me this meant people who either quoted the bible at me as being
the doctrine by which I ought to be living or would use chapter and
verse to let me know that as a Metaphysical Practitioner I was going
to hell if I didn't follow their belief systems. Either way I think
it's funny because I'm not attached to the opinions of someone that
quotes the bible at me as it's not the book I use to base my beliefs
upon.

I had an incident about 10 years ago with a woman(born again
Christian - she told me this) in a 2nd hand book store spending over
1 hour (closer to 2 actually) trying to convince me that I was going
to hell because I am an astrologer.

I listened very patiently to what she had to say and I kept on
saying to her "I absolutely believe that you believe what you are
saying. However I don't believe the same as you"... I really meant
it that I had respect for her belief systems, they were just not the
same as mine and for me mine work for me and hers worked for her.

Eventually she became exhausted and gave up on trying to convert me
and see things her way. I loved listening to her read me biblical
passages, trying to change my belief systems and I realized not long
after it would belike someone trying to convince me that sending my
child to a boarding school in New Zealand (no offense to New
Zealanders, it's just far away from Tucson, AZ), wearing a uniform
would be a great thing. (Zak was about 3 at the time and I'd
discovered unschooling, much to the chagrin of everyone around me at
that time).

I think it's wonderful that life is made up of people who are
seriously committed to their own beliefs. When I am clear on what
mine are I am not affected by others' beliefs. When I am unsure of
what I believe is when I notice that I really want to listen to what
others are saying to see if I can gain clarity on my own belief
systems.

This unschooling thingy is a process for me that reveals itself to
me everyday. Mostly for me it's about deschooling myself (and
hubby).

Namaste

Dawn
Tucson, AZ
Zak 11, Max 7





--- In [email protected], Susan <SusanYvonne@...> wrote:
>
> > It might be being used in lieu of, instead of, but it
doesn't "mean
> > the same thing," and I'm guessing was first used by people who
didn't
> > know thump from thrash. To stab a finger onto a page and
say "RIGHT
> > HERE, in God's Holy Word" is a thump. To hold the Bible up and
tap
> > it and use it as a symbol of direct-from-Jesus-in-17th-century-
> > English gospel is to thump it. It's not to beat it.
<snip> "Bible beaters" doesn't make
> > sense.
>
> I must have missed out on the first part of this thread (or my
> messages are being delivered out of order again from Yahoo) but as
> Andrea pointed out, "bible beaters" is a commonly used phrase on
parts
> of the east coast (where I live) and it does make sense if you
were to
> witness this phrase in action.
>
> The folks here don't thump at a passage with a finger, they don't
hold
> it up and tap it - there are many denominations - particularly the
> very conservative ones - that hold the bible in one hand or place
it
> on their lap or the podium and literally beat the bible with their
> fist as they talk. They also tend to smack and pound it on the
podium,
> the backs of the pews, and anything else that happens to be nearby
> when preaching or discussing it passionately. This behavior is why
the
> phrases "bible beaters" and "beat the bible into them" and other
such
> similar sayings are heard around this area.
>
> -- Susan, with the east coast bible-belt perspective
>

Schuyler

> I think it's wonderful that life is made up of people who are
> seriously committed to their own beliefs. When I am clear on what
> mine are I am not affected by others' beliefs. When I am unsure of
> what I believe is when I notice that I really want to listen to what
> others are saying to see if I can gain clarity on my own belief
> systems.

I think that is often what is happening when people come to this list and
other lists and get very offended by people's experiences, and responses to
the things that they are sure are true, like letting a 4 year old watch
television will lead to a 25 year old axe murderer or children given a wide
range of food choices will always choose sugar and starches and e-numbers,
or something like that. I'm not terribly vocal about what challenges me in
my household. I'm ever so afraid of getting it wrong, but I watch and I read
and I listen. And it all helps so much. So that when something similar, or
something comes up, instead of going to that fearful place where I say "no"
or I say "I don't think you should" I can think it through with other
people's stories and experiences in my head. And really examine what my
fears are based on.

Today Simon bought a couple of packs of Yu-gi-oh cards on ebay. He was very
excited by his purchase. I thought he'd put it on the watch list, which is
what he usually does with things he wants me or David to get for him from
ebay. But I got an e-mail requesting payment and I got nervous about him
buying things willy nilly. Which is silly, Simon is incredible sensible with
his money and with what he wants to buy, and even if he weren't, it is not
as if I couldn't respond after the fact. But, when I asked him the details
of the transaction, he knew the shipping costs and the sale costs. I then
showed him the couple of things I look for in an ebay transaction, the
buyer's feedback profile and if VAT is added. It wasn't anything scary, but
I have a vague sense that money is something that needs to be very
controlled. Which means that it is an irrational control issue that I need
to examine and take back to a rational response.---In an addendum (within
text) Simon is currently interested in buying a Duel Disk and I asked him
what he was willing to pay for it. He said that he was willing to go up to
14 pounds because there was a buy it now one for 14 pounds. See, my fears
were completly absurd.

Recently Sandra posted Mary Gold's statement "It isn't the unschooling it's
the life" and I've been hearing those words echo in my head. Today I got
hungry, which meant that I needed to quickly grab something. I don't often
let hunger sneak up on me, but I was busy with Simon and Linnaea and looking
up words beginning with le in the dictionary so that Linnaea could make her
super neutral (neither good nor evil) name that began with le (she decided
on Lynx). And as the hunger overwhelmed my mood they were dealing with the
fact that there was only one egg but they both wanted to make french toast,
Simon wanted to use cow milk and Linnaea wanted to use soy. And I wanted to
not have to deal with this right now! But instead I grabbed a roll and
shoved it in my mouth, suggested that they could scramble the egg and then
divide it in half and then add their milk of choice. It also helps me to
hear those words when they are unhappy. That maybe they would feel better if
they had food, or sleep, or a drink, or the computer that they are craving
now or whatever.

So, I think it is very easy to believe that a challenge is an assualt, but
it is much more helpful, to you and yours, to see a challenge as something
to be honestly examined, to be open to as it may change the way you live and
love with those you love.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think it's wonderful that life is made up of people who are
seriously committed to their own beliefs. When I am clear on what
mine are I am not affected by others' beliefs. -=-

Just like the proselytizing woman was unaffected by your belief that
there was no hell.

Just like I'm unaffected by people who say kids cannot learn to read
without being taught (as I live with three big people who drive, and
read great, who figured out reading in their own natural, real ways
without spending hours and hours, months or years, on lessons).

Just like the new member/critic responded to me in an instant instead
of actually looking at any of the links I had sent her, or at the
archives of the group.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Recently Sandra posted Mary Gold's statement "It isn't the
unschooling it's
the life" and I've been hearing those words echo in my head-=-

It isn't the unschooling, it's life.

(Right? I think that's Mary's recommended saying...)

To clarify, the person who wrote was complaining about the discussion
of Bible thumpers or beaters, and that's the post I didn't let
through, though I did write to her directly and immediately, so she
had feedback. But she was angry that she couldn't say just whatever
on earth she wanted to, to the whole list. We don't have to give
just anyone the microphone here, and when people abuse it I put them
back on moderation where all new members start by default.

I don't think that's unreasonable. If anyone DOES think it's
unreasonable, she's free to make a yahoolist and set it up absolutely
unmoderated and go for it! You can announce it here and invite the
members of this list over. If you allow just anyone to join
automatically and post, what you will end up with is a bunch of posts
advertising nonsense, degrees online, and sex links, and kinda crazy
chain letter stuff about aliens in Pennsylvania or that public
television wants everyone to sign this petition RIGHT NOW, or that if
everyone doesn't write to the U.S. government that e-mails are about
to cost a nickel apiece and then the people in other countries wonder
what the heck is a nickel and why on earth should they give a rat's
ass. Oh. And then people drop off the list because it has just
become another way for junk mail to get into their mailboxes.

I have many, many years of experience now with online communications
in list style and forum/message board, and a couple of years of blog
experience now (my own for a year and a half and reading others for
longer), and some with MySpace. Comments are often too soon, too
thoughtless, unaware of circumstances and history. Often it's kinder
to shield a person from being exposed as hasty, thoughtless and
unaware than to give them the podium.

If there is a side discussion (they always peter out after a bit) and
people are saying "oh?" "Yeah" "I don't think so" "Yeah, it is."
then what never does help is for someone new to the list to add "All
of you stop talking about that because I wish you were talking about
something else; you and the list suck."

When anyone wishes the list was about kids instead of some other
topic it has wondered into, the thing to do is to post about your kids.
If you wish the list was more about reading, write about reading.
If you wish the list was discussing ANYthing that's not even ore off
topic than whatever's bugging you, post that on-topic thing and
others will respond.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Right, yes, good, now I can have the correct version in my head. Yay!

I also like the line "instead of some other topic it has wondered into" it
feels very unschooling to me.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

> -=-Recently Sandra posted Mary Gold's statement "It isn't the
> unschooling it's
> the life" and I've been hearing those words echo in my head-=-
>
> It isn't the unschooling, it's life.
>
> (Right? I think that's Mary's recommended saying...)