Schuyler

I'm not asking you for your reasons. I don't feel any need for you to share.
But when I read your post my first response was how would clothing make
someone more or less aggressive? I can see how it would make someone appear
more or less aggressive, I watched the Breakfast Club the other night and
the whole transformation of Ally Sheedy's character is all about how
appearance matters. Actually much of the movie is about how appearance
matters. But it is also about how appearance is only skin deep, or societal
standards deep. At least that's what the letter at the end of the movie
tells us<grin>.

I just can't see how clothes could honestly change the aggression level of
an individual.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com



> The reason I do have limits on the guns & bullet themes is for this
> particular child. He has some definite issues with aggressive behavior
> (I'm
> not going into the details about all of it) and I am making a decision
> that
> *I FEEL* is best for my child at this time.

jenstarc4

> But when I read your post my first response was how would clothing
make
> someone more or less aggressive? I can see how it would make
someone appear
> more or less aggressive,


That is exactly the point my daughter was making.


I watched the Breakfast Club the other night and
> the whole transformation of Ally Sheedy's character is all about
how
> appearance matters. Actually much of the movie is about how
appearance
> matters. But it is also about how appearance is only skin deep, or
societal
> standards deep. At least that's what the letter at the end of the
movie
> tells us<grin>.


It's funny how you brought that movie up because my daughter
absolutely loves that movie. She says the one girl looked much
better before the make-over and was a little disgusted with the fact
that they made her look all preppy, and only then, did the guys think
she was good looking. AAHHH the peer pressure thing. Something we
talk a lot about over here. My daughter just seems impervious to it,
but really deeply understands it.

>
> I just can't see how clothes could honestly change the aggression
level of
> an individual.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>


We speculated on that too. Several scenarios were brought up about
what could have happened to the child to make him so. It's the same
sort of reasoning that schools have about wearing pictures of guns
and stuff and why they don't allow it. Apparently they think it
promotes the usage of guns and violence. I don't really see that to
be true at all. I don't know a single kid, and I know many many
kids, that even own a gun, much less know how to use one, or want to
use one.

We have a bb gun here, but neither of my kids have ever expressed an
interest in it at all. It was my husbands when he was a kid. I
acutally really like those pop guns, they make such a loud sound
without even doing damage to anything.

My older daughter really loves knives and has a few and would like
more. The bigger and more dangerous the better, but she would never
use them to harm another person. She's one of the sweetest kindest
people I know.

jenstarc4

Apparently Robyn deleted her messages, so there's nothing to
reference to anymore. I was going to reply to her on list and let
her know that my daughter wanted to meet her son because she said he
sounded cool and wanted to know if he had a myspace. She was a
little disappointed that he lived all the way over in MO, while we
live in OR.

Oh well. She did reply to me off list letting me know that I was as
judgemental as a fundamentalist christian. I didn't really think
that I was being very judgemental.

I see how what she's doing could hinder her relationship with her son
though. I could've easily done the same thing with my daughter. As
usual though, with these things, it's the parent that really needs to
question their own discomforts so that it doesn't get in the way of
really understanding and respecting their children.

If I had reacted shocked over the shock value thing, I would've been
missing out on the fun of it all and knowing where it was coming from
and all that it has led to. I don't think it is healthy to getting
unschooling to work, by blocking the paths that my children are
following. If I do that, how will I know what cool things it will
lead to?

Isn't that kind of the point of unschooling? Encouraging your kids
to follow their own paths and enjoying it along with them and adding
to it in ways that will enrich their lives in a meaningful way.

If I had said "no" to knives, my kids wouldn't know how to safely use
them, simply because I was fearful of knives. It's sort of a self
fulfilling prophecy. Kids that do things when they are told not to,
will find their own way to do them, without your guidance, then it
justifies your reasons for telling them "no" in the first place
because they've gone and done it in an unsafe way behind your back.

I can't think of a single thing that my kids do behind my back. They
just aren't like that.

Sandra Dodd

-=-. It's the same
sort of reasoning that schools have about wearing pictures of guns
and stuff and why they don't allow it. Apparently they think it
promotes the usage of guns and violence. I don't really see that to
be true at all.-=-

I think they're worried that they would have seemed to have condoned
or encouraged it.

I know lots of kids (and adults with guns who know how to use them,
and none of them want to wear clothes with pictures of guns. <g>
Don't know if it's causal or not!

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-= Oh well. She did reply to me off list letting me know that I was as
judgemental as a fundamentalist christian. I didn't really think
that I was being very judgemental.
-=-

I'm really sorry that happened. I don't like people taking private-
mail potshots at others for public posts. Very tacky.

-=-Apparently Robyn deleted her messages, so there's nothing to
reference to anymore.-=-

I don't think there's a way for people to delete their own messages
from a yahoo group, is there? (Maybe there is...)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

It is good email list netiquette not to write offlist unless either
invited or you politely ask and get permission, first.

Some people don't mind a little offlist chatting, others do not want
to take the time to do it.

If you wrote to me, offlist, and asked, "I wonder if it would be okay
if we continued this thread a bit more, offlist?" then I might say
yes or no, depending on whether I am willing or not.

In other words, there is no "automatic" right for someone to have a
private conversation with me, just because I'm on an email list with
them.

-pam

On Jun 16, 2007, at 6:48 PM, Robyn wrote:

> This, by the way, is the statement I sent to her off list that you
> called a
> potshot:
> "Again though, I have to do what I feel is best for my son and my
> family and
> I would hope that the people on a group like this would be
> respectful of
> that fact. I signed up for this group hoping that the folks
> weren't so
> judgmental as the bible beaters I usually run into on the local groups
> around us so I could speak a little more freely - guess that isn't the
> case."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

> This, by the way, is the statement I sent to her off list that you
called a
> potshot:
> "Again though, I have to do what I feel is best for my son and my
family and
> I would hope that the people on a group like this would be respectful
of
> that fact. I signed up for this group hoping that the folks weren't
so
> judgmental as the bible beaters I usually run into on the local groups
> around us so I could speak a little more freely - guess that isn't the
> case."
>
>
> Robyn


That wasn't the only thing she said in the email though. But even if
it was, it still wasn't a very nice thing to say. When I saw that
she'd left me an email, before I read it I was thinking that perhaps
her son had wanted to meet my daughter, as they seem to have similar
interests and that was where my mind was already. So when I read the
email it felt a little insulting.

I actually prefer to write onlist. I don't mind if others email me
offlist, but I would hope it would be to further a comraderie of sorts.

I don't always respond to posters onlist. I responded to this
particular thread because I've been there were this person is right
now. That feeling of discomfort with something that their child is
interested in, where your gut reaction is to say "no", when you work so
much at saying "yes" to really build up a strong relationship with your
children.

Saying "yes" is a huge aspect of parenting in unschooling. If my gut
reaction is to say "no" to something, then that's a big indicator that
I, as the parent, need to re-examine my own hang ups and feelings.
Talking to my kids about where they are coming from is extremely
helpful.

With this particular issue of clothing, just being present with my
daughter and talking about her likes and dislikes I came to discover
that my assumption of the why's and what's of it all were all wrong.
My daughter showed things in a whole new light to me. I never would
have found that out if I'd said "no" because something felt
uncomfortable with me, or if I had a misunderstanding about it. It
would have been a missed opportunity of connection and understanding
with my child.

At the age of 12 and 13, if you keep missing those opportunities and
connections and understandings, you will break those bonds that you
worked so hard on building all those years when they were little. It's
a crucial age where you can make it or break it, so to speak. You
might still have a child that you can talk to and hang out with, but
that extra special something will be gone. That trust and
understanding won't be there like it was. It's not something you can
just do when your kids are little and it's easier because they are more
trusting and more likely to do what you say.

Saying "no" because a parent feels that it is best for the child's own
good, doesn't promote confidence in the child or their ability to make
good decisions for themselves. Ulimately, the message you send is that
you don't trust them to make good decision and that you, because you
are the adult, know the only "right" way to do it. It's extremely
arrogant to assume that a 12 or 13 yr old, or any age, doesn't have a
better answer than the adult does. My kids show me creative logical
reasoning all the time. They come up with better solutions than I do
sometimes. I wouldn't know that if I said "no" and made them do it my
way. They simply wouldn't have the opportunity to show me how smart
they are in their decision making abilities.

Traditional parenting tells parents to make the decisions and then when
the kids do it differently they call is misbehaving or disobedience, or
any other number of other things. Kids get told good only when they do
it like the parents want them to. There is no room for following their
own instincts to solve problems or navigate their life, unless it
happens to be what the parents say is good and right. It goes both
ways too and eventually the kid will be grown and say "nope, my way
now, so butt out".

I already see a marked difference in my relationship with my children
that other parents don't have. I contribute that to the way we treat
each other and my ability to let go and say "yes" and really deeply
trust my kids and their abiltiy to make good choices for themselves.
They do make good choices too, and even when they don't, the only place
to go from there is to make a better one next time. No punishment, no
shaming or blaming, more just sympathizing with them about the outcome
of a poor decision.

And just by the way, my 13 yo dd doesn't own any clothing items with
guns on it, but that's not why she's sweet and kind and gentle.

magenta_mum

For me, saying "Yes" is not saying "Yay! Woohoo! Let's do it right
now", about every and any thing. I think it's easy for someone looking
on to see RU style parenting as all about being cool in a way that can
seem only rebellious, if the depth of it is not understood, and
practiced by those who venture into the territory.

The bits I snipped out of Jen's post and left there below leapt out at
me particularly. Most especially the importance of talking with our
young people about where they're coming from. I've frequently found
that what I think my daughter might be thinking about something, ie.
the way *I* see it ;) is so not where she is coming from.

Jo R


--- In [email protected], "jenstarc4" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
Saying "yes" is a huge aspect of parenting in unschooling.
>
Talking to my kids about where they are coming from is extremely
helpful.
>
With this particular issue of clothing, just being present with my
daughter and talking about her likes and dislikes I came to discover
that my assumption of the why's and what's of it all were all wrong.
>
It's not something you can just do when your kids are little and it's
easier because they are more trusting and more likely to do what you
say.
>
It's extremely arrogant to assume that a 12 or 13 yr old, or any age,
doesn't have a better answer than the adult does. My kids show me
creative logical reasoning all the time. They come up with better
solutions than I do sometimes.
>
I already see a marked difference in my relationship with my children
that other parents don't have.
>