beanmommy2

On another list I'm on, someone recently said "I disagree that
unschooling is legal."

This reminded me (if I remember correctly) Sandra saying that an
article in People magazine said that unschooling was legal, when in
actuality it is not.

My daughter just turned six, so we haven't dealt with the legalities of
this quite yet. My understanding was that homeschooling was perfectly
legal, and unschooling is a type, or style, of homeschooling, so it was
perfectly legal as well.

Is this not true? Does it depend on "how" you unschool? Am I
misunderstanding something?

Thanks
Jenny

Vicki Dennis

In my opinion, it depends on what state you are in. If you are in one
of the "private school states" , particularly if in a state that private
schools that are private in more than name (in other words, are not
government regulated and controlled); then it is not an issue at all.
Many of the concepts of unschooling have been recognized for decades in
certain institutional private schools.

If you are in one of the states that has ALL schools under the jurisdiction
of the state educational authority, then you might need to be a little more
creative in acting as a buffer between your children and bureaucrats. Same
thing if you are in one of the states that sets up special and different
requirements for "Home schools" . Doesn't make unschooling illegal, just
means that you need to remind yourself how to "translate" what your children
are doing naturally into bureaucratic language.

I am continually bemused that those who scream loudest about the fundamental
rights of parents to raise and educate their children are often the same
folks declaring that unschooling is NOT legal.

vicki

P.S.: One thing to consider is whether your mindset is such that you think
that to be "legal" something has to be specifically listed as legal. The
United States legal system is based more on the concept that what is "not
illegal" can be considered "legal".

On 6/15/07, beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...> wrote:
>
> On another list I'm on, someone recently said "I disagree that
> unschooling is legal."
>
> This reminded me (if I remember correctly) Sandra saying that an
> article in People magazine said that unschooling was legal, when in
> actuality it is not.
>
> My daughter just turned six, so we haven't dealt with the legalities of
> this quite yet. My understanding was that homeschooling was perfectly
> legal, and unschooling is a type, or style, of homeschooling, so it was
> perfectly legal as well.
>
> Is this not true? Does it depend on "how" you unschool? Am I
> misunderstanding something?
>
> Thanks
> Jenny
>
> M<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/29322;_ylc=X3oDMTM2YzVsbW5iBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzI5MzIyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE4MTk0Mjc4MAR0cGNJZAMyOTMyMg-->
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-> This reminded me (if I remember correctly) Sandra saying that an
> article in People magazine said that unschooling was legal, when in
> actuality it is not.-=-

There's no such legal concept as unschooling, is what I said. You
can't just tell the government "I'm unschooling and unschooling is
legal because I read it in a magazine."

Homeschooling is legal, and every single unschooling parent needs to
understand his/her own state law and how learning works and what
their intentions and plans are so well that he or she can discuss it
intelligently when and if necessary.

There are ideas for descriptions here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My understanding was that homeschooling was perfectly
legal, and unschooling is a type, or style, of homeschooling, so it was
perfectly legal as well. -=-

Phrases like "perfectly legal" muddle the issue. Laws differ. Read
lots, be prepared, know your stuff.

"Perfectly legal" is too simple a way to see it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan

> Is this not true? Does it depend on "how" you unschool? Am I
> misunderstanding something?

Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states, and yes, most people in the
homeschooling community see unschooling as a subset or particular
approach to homeschooling. I'm not aware of any language that
specifically calls "unschooling" illegal.

However, as Vicki said, how you go about unschooling *legally* depends
on your state. I don't mean that you must do unschooling differently -
just that if your state has strict laws or heavy oversight, you may
have to find a creative way to comply with your state's requirements.

To begin with, there is no reason to use the word "unschooling" when
talking with or writing to any school or state official. It's very
likely that they would either be confused because they don't know what
you're talking about or become alarmed because they have
misconceptions about unschooling. This could lead to problems that are
avoidable if you stick to the word "homeschooling" (or whatever your
state calls it - home education, home instruction, etc) when it comes
to any official correspondence or communication.

Some states require that parents keep attendance. In my opinion, if my
child is awake and present on Earth, then s/he is learning something.
You don't have to sit a child in a desk and declare it a "school day"
to count them as "present" on an attendance sheet.

Other states require that you give them a description of curriculum or
lesson plans. In this case you can translate their unschooling,
day-to-day learning into "school speak". There are many resources
online that can offer suggestions and advice on how to do this. People
in the educational system are more comfortable with paperwork that
uses familiar wording and phrases.

There have been and probably always will be an unknown but relatively
small number of homeschoolers & unschoolers who decide to fly under
the radar and choose civil disobedience rather than attempting to
comply with the state's laws, for whatever reason they feel it's
necessary. I personally wouldn't recommend this because it's risky in
many ways and more often than not families can find a way to
unschooling and meet state requirements, but each person must
determine their own path. There is the option of moving to another
state if you are unhappy with the laws where you live.

-- Susan

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 15, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Susan wrote:

> Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states,

Even this isn't "perfectly" accurate.

There are quite a few states in which we might talk about
"homeschooling," but, in fact, it isn't, itself, a legal option. In
those states, people have figured out how to go ahead and homeschool
while establishing themselves officially as private schools or
enrolling in some kind of umbrella school in order to be legal.

People have gotten themselves into trouble by insisting that
"homeschooling is legal," in states where thousands of people may be
homeschooling, but it isn't called that in the legal sense.

The magazine article went beyond even that, and said that unschooling
was legal. It is pretty clear that the authorities, from school
district officials on up to state legislators, didn't intend to
legalize unschooling, and that we're pretty much all taking advantage
of the fact that they don't even really understand what we're doing.


> and yes, most people in the
> homeschooling community see unschooling as a subset or particular
> approach to homeschooling. I'm not aware of any language that
> specifically calls "unschooling" illegal.

There is language in most, not quite all, homeschool laws and private
school regulations that say that kids have to be taught some specific
subjects. "We" interpret that through our unschooling lenses and say,
"Kids will learn what they need to learn in a rich a stimulating
environment with supportive adults." But, the intent is clearly to
require teaching and we're not doing it.

Alaska probably has the "best" homeschooling law in the country. It
simply says that if the child is being educated in the child's home
by a parent or legal guardian, the child is exempt from compulsory
attendance. There are no qualifying, reporting, registering, or
educational requirements at all of any kind.

EVEN in that most free of all states, Alaska, however, notice that it
says "if a child is being educated..." If authorities wanted to make
a case that unschooling didn't meet the legal definition of
"educating," they'd probably have most educational experts on their
side and, therefore, very likely win in court.

We don't usually talk much about the legal issues on our discussion
lists - this one or the others - because our interest is in talking
about learning and life as unschoolers. The legal stuff you each have
to figure out based on your own state laws, court decisions in your
state, and how things work "in practice" in your area. None of that
changes anything about how kids learn or how unschooling works.

It is probably good to point out, once in a while, that unschoolers
are doing something that might possibly get them into some legal hot
water if they don't make sure they are knowledgeable and confident
enough to do/say what is necessary to any authorities in order to
protect their own freedom to unschool. That includes not saying,
"Unschooling is legal," or insisting on calling it "unschooling,"
even to authorities or others who have no reason to know of it or
understand it.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-We don't usually talk much about the legal issues on our discussion
lists - this one or the others - because our interest is in talking
about learning and life as unschoolers. The legal stuff you each have
to figure out based on your own state laws, court decisions in your
state, and how things work "in practice" in your area. None of that
changes anything about how kids learn or how unschooling works.-=-

Yes.

And it's one reason (though rarely explained) that experienced
unschoolers can get quickly exasperated with people who seem to need
to be spoonfed information.

Figuring unschooling out IS strange and odd sometimes, but if someone
really can't understand it while lots of confident people are making
suggestions and making pointers, the odds of her getting it going
well at home and maintaining it for years and defending it when and
if needed are not so strong.

I know that sometimes newer unschoolers seem baffled that we're
talking so much philosophy and so little (it seems to them)
practicality and "how to" but it's because unschooling only starts to
work after beliefs and viewpoints change. There's not really a
shortcut. There's a bypass, which looks like unschooling that will
work, but it's not sustainable if the parents don't really relax into
it and expect it to be fun and good, and unless they do the work it
takes to create the environment to allow it to work for everyone.

It's not as easy as it looks.
And it should take many hours a day (more parental-involvement at
first than later; more with younger kids than older).

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan

> People have gotten themselves into trouble by insisting that
> "homeschooling is legal," in states where thousands of people may be
> homeschooling, but it isn't called that in the legal sense.

You're right, that's true - we group may things under homeschooling
that technically and legally aren't considered homeschooling -
families functioning as private schools, as you mention, for example.
In addition to the home instruction laws here in my state we also have
religious exemptions and tutor provisions that are not considered the
same as homeschooling in a legal sense (but in reality are used that
way).

I guess what I was trying to say (and should have been clearer in my
use of language) is that there is a way to do what would be commonly
considered "homeschooling" and "unschooling" (non-technical
definitions) in one way or another in all 50 states but the legal
hurdles and specific requirements vary from place to place. In some
states "homeschooling" is an acceptable word, other states may not be
as tolerant, depending on what educational avenues they expect
families to follow (like umbrella schools, etc).

> The magazine article went beyond even that, and said that unschooling
> was legal. It is pretty clear that the authorities, from school
> district officials on up to state legislators, didn't intend to
> legalize unschooling, and that we're pretty much all taking advantage
> of the fact that they don't even really understand what we're doing.

I didn't read the magazine article, so I wasn't speaking to that, but
I can guess where they got the information ~ probably misuse of words
and an implied understanding on the part of the speaker that might or
might not actually have been understood correctly by the receiver. In
other words, just like what I did with my post - Oops! I guess coming
from a place where homeschooling and even unschooling is not
difficult, I forget the difficulties others face elsewhere. It wasn't
my intention to exacerbate the problem - I will be more careful in the
future.

> There is language in most, not quite all, homeschool laws and private
> school regulations that say that kids have to be taught some specific
> subjects. "We" interpret that through our unschooling lenses and say,
> "Kids will learn what they need to learn in a rich a stimulating
> environment with supportive adults." But, the intent is clearly to
> require teaching and we're not doing it.

Right again. I was looking through my rose colored glasses. I realize
there are certain responsibilities that the intent of the law implies,
but after years of reading it and dealing with it my brain
automatically translates all school speak into unschooling terms now.
In hindsight, that's probably not the most accurate or useful way to
approach this topic when helping people who are trying to grasp a very
basic understanding. I apologize for any confusion.

-- Susan

Amy

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster - lol! But I just had to
say thanks for this. It is strange, odd and baffling. But I've
found that if I just mull my questions over in my head, and keep
reading the philosophy espoused here I start to get it. Little by
little. I did want answers when I started reading. I kept wanting
to ask, "Well what do I say when she does this? What do I do about
this situation?" It's difficult to change philosophies and know what
to say and do. It is not an easy way to parent. But I never asked
for easy anyway. I do have to tell you though, my daughter and I are
so much happier. She's just 4, so we didn't have to do any
deschooling. Just 'delimiting.' We are having such a nice time
together.

Thanks again,
Amy

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Figuring unschooling out IS strange and odd sometimes, but if someone
really can't understand it while lots of confident people are making
suggestions and making pointers, the odds of her getting it going
well at home and maintaining it for years and defending it when and
if needed are not so strong.

I know that sometimes newer unschoolers seem baffled that we're
talking so much philosophy and so little (it seems to them)
practicality and "how to" but it's because unschooling only starts to
work after beliefs and viewpoints change. There's not really a
shortcut. There's a bypass, which looks like unschooling that will
work, but it's not sustainable if the parents don't really relax into
it and expect it to be fun and good, and unless they do the work it
takes to create the environment to allow it to work for everyone.

It's not as easy as it looks.