Paige Parr

Funny, what memories I have of the show. My Mom used to have me help with
dusting the living room on Saturday mornings, and my job was always to pick
up our little color TV so that she could dust the entertainment center under
the TV. I never, ever saw any actual dust under the TV, but oh well...that
was my job, and it wasn't much, so I didn't complain. My Mom was of the
mindset that she'd rather do all the cleaning, and have me help in very
minor ways, so she could be assured that "it was done RIGHT". Anyway, seems
like I always held the TV against my chest when the Smurfs were on. That's
a weird memory.

I *never* liked the show, personally, but I wonder if my kids have ever even
heard of them, or seen them. Shelby, maybe (she's 13). One of the reasons
I first subscribed (years ago) to the Cartoon Network was so I could
re-live some of those really great cartoons with my girls: Bugs Bunny,
Droopy the Dog, Huckleberry Hound, Tom and Jerry, Garfield and Friends.
Alas, it's really hard to find those on now...maybe I could check
Netflix.The Gargamel/Smurfette thing triggered a memory, though. I thought
it was referenced in a Kevin Smith film (we really like Smith's films), but
I googled it and found it here:

"First of all, Papa Smurf didn't create Smurfette. Gargamel did. She was
sent in as Gargamel's evil spy with the intention of destroying the Smurf
village, but the overwhelming goodness of the Smurf way of life transformed
her."
~from *Donnie Darko*, 2001

There's a little more, here (from IMDb), but I didn't want to get too
raunchy. Funny stuff, though. ;-)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0246578/quotes

Paige, in Virginia

--
http://abeautifulchild.blogspot.com/

"All humans realize they are loved when witnessing the dawn; early morning
is the triumph of good over evil. Absolved by light we decide to go on."
~Rufus Wainwright


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

stratva

Funny that Smurfs have come up, because I cleaned out the garage just
the other day and found MY old Smurf set--about a dozen of the figures
and the little mushroom house. My kids went wild. They've only
discovered Smurfs recently themselves; my husband saw it on the cable
guide and recorded a bunch of episodes on the DVR. The kids have been
watching it on Saturday mornings, and hubby and I are there going OH I
REMEMBER THAT ONE! and stuff.

One episode launched a great discussion about "fairness"--whether
something the Smurfs did in response to Gargamel was "fair" or not. It
was a great conversation. My 8yo especially was quite animated over
the whole thing, almost outraged that the "good" guys (Smurfs) were
doing something she considered not good, not fair. This led my 12yo to
all kinds of questions about if the good guys do something bad to
achieve a good end, is that still 'good' or not. Eventually we wound
up talking about the war, Iraq, all kinds of political stuff--by then
the 8 and youngers were back to watching the show, but the 12yo is
very interested in politics and world events, and it became quite a
deep discussion--all from Smurfs.

And I kid you not--this was before my 'return to unschooling mindset'
epiphany that I wrote about the other day in my 'saying yes' post, and
before I had any thought of rejoining this list--I thought "this is
one of those moments Sandra Dodd's always writing about." LOL!! Maybe
that's what sparked the idea (weeks later) to start poking around
Sandra's site again, and to come back here. I really don't know.

I have to say being back here is sort of an unsettling experience,
like jumping into deep water and finding out if you still remember how
to swim. I have swallowed a lot of water these past few days--am
seeing more and more small moments, tiny exchanges between me and the
kids, where I have (had) shifted into a more controlling, even rigid,
person, and am now trying to unclench.

Sara, mom of 5

Sandra Dodd

-=-And I kid you not--this was before my 'return to unschooling mindset'
epiphany that I wrote about the other day in my 'saying yes' post, and
before I had any thought of rejoining this list--I thought "this is
one of those moments Sandra Dodd's always writing about." LOL!! Maybe
that's what sparked the idea (weeks later) to start poking around
Sandra's site again, and to come back here. I really don't know.-=-

That could have been the trigger, really. If you were using
Charlotte Mason instead of Smurfs videos...

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

stratva

> -=-And I kid you not--this was before my 'return to unschooling mindset'
> epiphany that I wrote about the other day in my 'saying yes' post, and
> before I had any thought of rejoining this list--I thought "this is
> one of those moments Sandra Dodd's always writing about." LOL!! Maybe
> that's what sparked the idea (weeks later) to start poking around
> Sandra's site again, and to come back here. I really don't know.-=-
>
> That could have been the trigger, really. If you were using
> Charlotte Mason instead of Smurfs videos...
>

The Charlotte Mason stuff, letting it go, is where I'm having trouble. There is a part of me
that connects so much to what she has to say, the vision she presents. But I recognize that
it's an ideal, and the reality has not been quite so idyllic. Again, not TERRIBLE, not
miserable kids, but, if I'm honest with myself, not wholly happy either.

I cannot escape the plain truth that when I am doing CM stuff, tension comes into my
home. The 8yo resists: "I don't like that book. I hate narrating." The toddlers start to
squabble with each other because I'm kind of ignoring them so I can read to the older
kids. The 12yo sits patiently waiting, suppressing her frustration with the rising noise
level, the interruptions, her sister squealing because someone's foot strayed one inch into
"her" territory.

And I look at it this way and wonder what I'm clinging to? Some imaginary picture? I mean,
when I write it out like this it sounds stupid. If anyone else described to me a scene like
the above, I'd say, Well obviously you need to ditch that. And if the person said, but that's
just a bad day--there are lots and lots of good days, great days even, I'd be thinking, But
the bad days are what the kids will remember.

Anyway, if I approach it from the viewpoint of saying YES as often as possible--well, right
away it's clear that even in our best times, CM stuff involves a lot of me saying "no, not
now," etc. Saying no sweetly & cheerfully is still saying no. It's still saying, what YOU want
is not as important as what *I* want. :::sigh:::

I get it, I really do. The thing I don't get is why there's ANY part of me that's reluctant to let
it go. Hmm...deschooling was easy the first time (ten years ago), because I was coming
from a background of my own frustrating public school experience. This time, deschooling
from this idealized CM vision, it's way harder.

Sara

Sandra Dodd

-=-mm...deschooling was easy the first time (ten years ago), because
I was coming
from a background of my own frustrating public school experience.
This time, deschooling
from this idealized CM vision, it's way harder. -=-

I don't see why it would be different.
Deschooling, if it had taken, should have kept you from falling for
the Charlotte Mason claims.


Maybe part of the problem was feeling you had "successfully" deschooled.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> And I look at it this way and wonder what I'm clinging to? Some
imaginary picture? I mean,
> when I write it out like this it sounds stupid. If anyone else described
> to me a scene like
> the above, I'd say, Well obviously you need to ditch that. >>>>

Here exactly is the value of writing it out with all the details and
questioning and clarity. Here exactly is one of this list's most useful
reason for being here. You gain the insight yourself by following the
process.

For me the best antidote for attachment to these unbidden visions of the
ideal child or perfect future (or visions of disaste for that matter) has
been stopping and focussing on what Jayn is doing and saying right now.

You already know that this CM program is interfering with the joy in your
family. Since it is you who is enjoying the vision, you can still do the
reading alone. Maybe treat her program as nothing more than a recommended
book list for yourself. Perhaps join an online book discussion club for the
classics - Barnes and Noble have moderated online book discussion forums
that may fill your need to have discussions about great books, that will
free your kids from having to fulfil that function for you. I wonder if you
have the niggling notion that it is self-indulgent to use some time to enjoy
reading material that interests you alone (or just you and your dd if that
is how it transpires). Really it doesn't need the veneer of being for the
kids to be allowable for you, presuming that you aren't ignoring requests
for attention or help.:)

I bet you would get something from having a copy of Sandra's empowerment
certificate hanging up where your eye will fall upon it periodically. You
and your kids are more powerful than Charlotte Mason.

Robyn L. Coburn

Sandra Dodd

-=-I bet you would get something from having a copy of Sandra's
empowerment
certificate hanging up where your eye will fall upon it periodically.
You
and your kids are more powerful than Charlotte Mason.-=-

I give them away at conferences where I speak.
You can print one out or lift the text and format it as you wish:
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

stratva

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-mm...deschooling was easy the first time (ten years ago), because
> I was coming
> from a background of my own frustrating public school experience.
> This time, deschooling
> from this idealized CM vision, it's way harder. -=-
>
> I don't see why it would be different.
> Deschooling, if it had taken, should have kept you from falling for
> the Charlotte Mason claims.

You're right, it didn't take. Maybe I looked at homeschooling catalogs too soon. Those
things are like crack. ;)

I've seen a few quotes on your site, Sandra, where people describe totally *getting*
unschooling as an experience similar to a religious conversion. Not that it's a religion, but
it's such a total paradigm shift & lifestyle change that the experience is something akin to
embracing a religuous faith.

Which makes me think of the parable about the seed falling on rocky soil, thorny soil, etc.
There are seeds that fall but don't take root, seeds that get choked by thorns (my
homeschooling catalogs??)...

>
> Maybe part of the problem was feeling you had "successfully" deschooled.

Yes, like the people in that parable who are full of zeal at first but fall away later on.

But then, I never did cross the bridge all the way. My take was: I'm all for unschooling, but
you've got to make them do their chores. You've got to make them write thank-you notes
when appropriate. Etc etc etc---the et ceteras multiply until one day you realize they've
moved right into school-at-home territory.

So I have to say, now I'm reading these posts & quotes from a new perspective.

I am enjoying the bejeebers out of my ever-growing YES list. My husband is all, "My aren't
you a chipper bunch these days." It is FUN being a yes mom. I was not having fun before.
My kids weren't having fun.

Thanks,
Sara

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am enjoying the bejeebers out of my ever-growing YES list. My
husband is all, "My aren't
you a chipper bunch these days." It is FUN being a yes mom. I was not
having fun before.
My kids weren't having fun. -=-

I'm enjoying you being so chipper on this list, too!!

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

stratva

--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<<> And I look at it this way and wonder what I'm clinging to? Some
> imaginary picture? I mean,
> > when I write it out like this it sounds stupid. If anyone else described
> > to me a scene like
> > the above, I'd say, Well obviously you need to ditch that. >>>>
>
> Here exactly is the value of writing it out with all the details and
> questioning and clarity. Here exactly is one of this list's most useful
> reason for being here. You gain the insight yourself by following the
> process.

YES!! Yes, that's so true. It really helps to have to articulate what's been going on in my
head. I didn't realize some of this stuff until I started writing it down.


>For me the best antidote for attachment to these unbidden visions of the
>ideal child or perfect future (or visions of disaste for that matter) has
>been stopping and focussing on what Jayn is doing and saying right now.

I see your point...I was saying something similar to my husband last night, that I think we
fell into a way of parenting that looks more at (worries about) some imagined future--how
you want the kids to "turn out"--at the expense of the now moment. What seems more
important now is being happy together, here, today, every day, not just on the "good
days."

Sara

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 10, 2007, at 8:39 PM, stratva wrote:

> I see your point...I was saying something similar to my husband
> last night, that I think we
> fell into a way of parenting that looks more at (worries about)
> some imagined future--how
> you want the kids to "turn out"--at the expense of the now moment.
> What seems more
> important now is being happy together, here, today, every day, not
> just on the "good
> days."

Remember this - something my mother used to say a lot: "Childhood is
not a rehearsal for adulthood."

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/11/2007 12:26:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

"Childhood is
not a rehearsal for adulthood."



Wow! Big Wow! Thank you so much for posting that. For years, I viewed
childhood as exactly that: a rehearsal for adulthood. (my poor son can attest t
o that.) Although I've moved far beyond that point now, I never actually
thought of it in those terms. Sometimes I still need a little reminder. Such a
simple statement, yet so packed full of meaning and insight. Your mom
sounds pretty wise to me. Thanks again.

Wendy
in sunny [read rainy] Florida = )



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carelia

On Jun 10, 2007, at 9:20 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

> Remember this - something my mother used to say a lot: "Childhood is
> not a rehearsal for adulthood."


I have a t-shirt that is similar: "Childhood is a journey, not a race."

**********
carelia ~ C. Norton
carelia@...
http://www.mckca.org/carelia

Mom to Katherine (19), Christopher (16) and Aaron (8)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

Hi, Sara

Just a thought from somebody who had to google Charlotte Mason to
find out who she was.

As I read something about her at Wikipedia, I had flashbacks to the
days of the British Empire and colonial types forcing 'civilisation'
onto primitive dark skinned people. Maybe that's just me.

But, since she lived 1842-1923 in any event, I'd say her ideas about
how to educate children relate to a world that no longer exists.

No doubt she had some positive attitudes toward children and their
development, but, personally, the rest of it makes me cringe to think
that this little red schoolhouse approach is apparently being touted
as a basis for a useful 21st century education.

Bob




--- In [email protected], "stratva" <stratva@...> wrote:
>
> > -=-And I kid you not--this was before my 'return to unschooling
mindset'
> > epiphany that I wrote about the other day in my 'saying yes'
post, and
> > before I had any thought of rejoining this list--I thought "this
is
> > one of those moments Sandra Dodd's always writing about." LOL!!
Maybe
> > that's what sparked the idea (weeks later) to start poking around
> > Sandra's site again, and to come back here. I really don't know.-
=-
> >
> > That could have been the trigger, really. If you were using
> > Charlotte Mason instead of Smurfs videos...
> >
>
> The Charlotte Mason stuff, letting it go, is where I'm having
trouble. There is a part of me
> that connects so much to what she has to say, the vision she
presents. But I recognize that
> it's an ideal, and the reality has not been quite so idyllic.
Again, not TERRIBLE, not
> miserable kids, but, if I'm honest with myself, not wholly happy
either.
>
> I cannot escape the plain truth that when I am doing CM stuff,
tension comes into my
> home. The 8yo resists: "I don't like that book. I hate narrating."
The toddlers start to
> squabble with each other because I'm kind of ignoring them so I can
read to the older
> kids. The 12yo sits patiently waiting, suppressing her frustration
with the rising noise
> level, the interruptions, her sister squealing because someone's
foot strayed one inch into
> "her" territory.
>
> And I look at it this way and wonder what I'm clinging to? Some
imaginary picture? I mean,
> when I write it out like this it sounds stupid. If anyone else
described to me a scene like
> the above, I'd say, Well obviously you need to ditch that. And if
the person said, but that's
> just a bad day--there are lots and lots of good days, great days
even, I'd be thinking, But
> the bad days are what the kids will remember.
>
> Anyway, if I approach it from the viewpoint of saying YES as often
as possible--well, right
> away it's clear that even in our best times, CM stuff involves a
lot of me saying "no, not
> now," etc. Saying no sweetly & cheerfully is still saying no. It's
still saying, what YOU want
> is not as important as what *I* want. :::sigh:::
>
> I get it, I really do. The thing I don't get is why there's ANY
part of me that's reluctant to let
> it go. Hmm...deschooling was easy the first time (ten years ago),
because I was coming
> from a background of my own frustrating public school experience.
This time, deschooling
> from this idealized CM vision, it's way harder.
>
> Sara
>

Nancy Wooton

On Jun 11, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Bob Collier wrote:

> But, since she lived 1842-1923 in any event, I'd say her ideas about
> how to educate children relate to a world that no longer exists.

Her colleges were training governesses, and all her encouragement of
parents' involvement in their children's lives was because they hardly
saw their kids.

Charlotte Mason was my introduction to homeschooling, through a book
called "For the Children's Sake," which I read before I even had any
children. When it came to actually implementing the method, with my
real-live individual kids, I couldn't keep it up. For instance, I was
all prepared to teach my 4 y.o. son, who was showing all the signs of
readiness, to read, using her poetry method. In the meanwhile, he'd
taught himself, using his own method, which she could never have
conceived -- it involved a computer ;-)

Nancy

Bob Collier

LOL

My wife and I had a lesson plan for our son when he quit school that
he'd agreed to as a prerequisite for being home educated. But,
in retrospect, I can see that it was really for our benefit and to
keep the school happy, so we could all be comfortable that we were
doing 'the right thing' as far as the Department of Education was
concerned (the Department of Schools as I call it these days).

The lesson plan lasted all of two weeks before we dumped it.

At the time, we were far from convinced that we'd done the right
thing. We'd acted simply because we wanted our son to be happy and he
wasn't happy with anything that reminded him of the school classroom,
no matter how informal we made the lessons. Interestingly, it was
what then happened with our son's reading that ultimately persuaded
us we'd made the right decision.

In his second and final year at school (Year 1), Pat had been in the
remedial reading class. They didn't call it that, but that's
essentially what it was. I was a parent helper in the school's
reading program both years my son was there, so I knew first hand how
exciting the reading classes were. Mostly you got to read inane
little stories about things that were of no interest to you.
Especially if you were a boy. And you got to read them over and over
again. One of the things my son was required to do was bring a book
home every school day and he was supposed to read this to me and I
would make notes on his reading performance in a file that would then
go back to his teacher with the book the next school day. It took
only a few weeks to get through the school's entire stock of books at
that particular reading level and he could read them all just fine.
In fact, he could have read them backwards and upside down. But he
wasn't moved up to a higher level or even taken out of the remedial
reading program. He was still bringing home the same books over and
over. So I'd just sign the form with some useful comment or other and
tell him to do something more useful with his valuable time.

After Pat quit school, he refused to read a book. He hates them.
Thank you school for teaching my son to hate reading books. My son
has never read a book since school and that was five years ago. He's
had not even one minute of a reading lesson since school. Yet his
reading is excellent. He developed his reading skills from reading
videogame manuals and web pages of cheats and walkthroughs and from
videogames themselves, some of which have an enormous amount of text
in the gameplay that you need to be able to read to play at all.

Pat's motivation for developing his reading skills came not from
being told it was something he needed but from his own understanding
of how it would help him get what he wanted.

There's no more powerful form of motivation, probably.

Bob








--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton <nancywooton@...>
wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 11, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Bob Collier wrote:
>
> > But, since she lived 1842-1923 in any event, I'd say her ideas
about
> > how to educate children relate to a world that no longer exists.
>
> Her colleges were training governesses, and all her encouragement
of
> parents' involvement in their children's lives was because they
hardly
> saw their kids.
>
> Charlotte Mason was my introduction to homeschooling, through a
book
> called "For the Children's Sake," which I read before I even had
any
> children. When it came to actually implementing the method, with
my
> real-live individual kids, I couldn't keep it up. For instance, I
was
> all prepared to teach my 4 y.o. son, who was showing all the signs
of
> readiness, to read, using her poetry method. In the meanwhile,
he'd
> taught himself, using his own method, which she could never have
> conceived -- it involved a computer ;-)
>
> Nancy
>

Sandra Dodd

Bob, I added this to a reading-from-videogames page. How old was Pat
when he came home?

-=-After Pat quit school, he refused to read a book. He hates them.
Thank you school for teaching my son to hate reading books. My son
has never read a book since school and that was five years ago. He's
had not even one minute of a reading lesson since school. Yet his
reading is excellent. He developed his reading skills from reading
videogame manuals and web pages of cheats and walkthroughs and from
videogames themselves, some of which have an enormous amount of text
in the gameplay that you need to be able to read to play at all.

Pat's motivation for developing his reading skills came not from
being told it was something he needed but from his own understanding
of how it would help him get what he wanted.

There's no more powerful form of motivation, probably.

Bob-=-

http://sandradodd.com/game/reading
(it's there)

My kids all "broke the code" with reading from video game manuals and
onscreen instructions or casual dialog. With Holly, the Harry Potter
collectible card game also helped, and we all played various little
word-related games, but it was the video games that made it real.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

Cool. He was seven.

We played a lot together in the first couple of years. Old games on
the Nintendo 64 (he started on that when he was three); mostly Super
Smash Bros and WWE Day of Reckoning on the Game Cube; dozens of dinky
little games we turned up on the internet. We also played Pokemon and
other card games together - Yugioh was very big for ages. Then
Runescape was his big passion on the PC for a long time. And Empire
Earth. I did play those a bit myself, but they're not really my kind
of game. I'm definitely 'old school'. Pat prefers the complex games
that require more sophisticated thinking and tactical skills.

He's left me completely behind since he got his Xbox 360 for
Christmas and plays online mostly these days (which has added new
interpersonal skills). The game we play most together at the moment
is Tony Hawk's Project 8, which is totally awesome.

Bob



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Bob, I added this to a reading-from-videogames page. How old was
Pat
> when he came home?
>
> -=-After Pat quit school, he refused to read a book. He hates them.
> Thank you school for teaching my son to hate reading books. My son
> has never read a book since school and that was five years ago. He's
> had not even one minute of a reading lesson since school. Yet his
> reading is excellent. He developed his reading skills from reading
> videogame manuals and web pages of cheats and walkthroughs and from
> videogames themselves, some of which have an enormous amount of text
> in the gameplay that you need to be able to read to play at all.
>
> Pat's motivation for developing his reading skills came not from
> being told it was something he needed but from his own understanding
> of how it would help him get what he wanted.
>
> There's no more powerful form of motivation, probably.
>
> Bob-=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/game/reading
> (it's there)
>
> My kids all "broke the code" with reading from video game manuals
and
> onscreen instructions or casual dialog. With Holly, the Harry
Potter
> collectible card game also helped, and we all played various
little
> word-related games, but it was the video games that made it real.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>