Amie

I am wondering if anyone can help me with some ideas on how to assist my kids right now. Six weeks ago my brother committed suicide. He was only 33. We were extremely close to him, my kids adored him. He was over at our house alot, and to the kids he always seemed happy. He joked around alot with them. They don't understand how someone can appear happy but not be. Someone recommended a place to take the kids that helps kids with grieving a close family member. My kids say they are not going. I don't want to push them, but at the same time, I feel like Eric in particular is really trying to avoid even thinking about it. He doesn't want to talk about it. It is so hard to know what to do. Also, he is lashing out at Sam and being really mean to him. It is difficult to get him to stop doing this. I feel like I am out of ideas. Eric has had alot of issues with jealously even before this happened. They are twins, and are both boys, so this is playing into everything. I am getting therapy trying to cope with losing my brother, it all feels so overwhelming. I just thought maybe someone might have some experience with this. Also, any thoughts or insights on grieving with kids? They are 10 years old.

Thank you,
Amie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/16/2007 11:19:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
amiersa2@... writes:

Also, any thoughts or insights on grieving with kids?


___

Perhaps one of the most important things you can do for your kids is to be
aware that you are grieving too.
This was your brother and it's so difficult to lose a brother so
unexpectedly. I think it's important to discuss some of your sadness with your children
as well as ways you work through your grief. It can be a long process and
perhaps sharing some of the things you are doing both in and out of therapy
might be beneficial to your children. Talk about your sadness as well as your
wonderful happy memories of your brother. Don't pressure them to talk about
it.

Six weeks is not that long. I'd suggest waiting on any outside intervention
for awhile. My brother died unexpectedly almost two years ago. A completely
different situation as my kids are older and we didn't live close to him,
however, something that did help us all is to just get out of the house. I
felt closer to my brother just being outside and it helped the kids when they
were busy doing something new. It gave us all something else to focus on and
gave me some time to think and work through my grief knowing they were happily
occupied. It's a long and ongoing process. I'd just recommend not worrying
about fixing it and making everything okay. Things will get better and
easier. But it will be awhile.

Gail



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


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Nicole

In our past we have had a number of deaths and on book I found that helps us
is "Tear Soup" by Pat Schwiebert. Pat has worked with parents who lost a
child and currently does hospice care. She is also my aunt. They have a
site <http://www.griefwatch.com/> http://www.griefwatch.com/



The reason I like the book is because it talks about how each person deals
with death in a different way and at a different pace. It is beautifully
illustrated and simple to read. I have found that my children, my nephews
and nieces, my friends and my family have all found the book offers so much
to the healing process. My friend had a copy on his table for a long time
after the death of their friend-he would read it and if his kids wanted he
would read it to them but he didn't push it.



I also saw a book that allowed children to write about the person they lost.
I have searched for the book and cannot find it. Maybe someone on this
group will remember it. It is a book that had questions or a phrases that
the child could fill in and write about the person.



The other thing I have found to be helpful when my best friend died was
<http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/> http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/ .



Take Care

Nicole




<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/28804;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWJ
vNmZiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzI
4ODA0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzkzMjk1ODI-> kids and grieving

Posted by: "Amie"
<mailto:amiersa2@...?Subject=%20Re%3Akids%20and%20grieving>
amiersa2@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/mascire2> mascire2

Wed May 16, 2007 8:19 am (PST)

I am wondering if anyone can help me with some ideas on how to assist my
kids right now. Six weeks ago my brother committed suicide. He was only 33.
We were extremely close to him, my kids adored him. He was over at our house
alot, and to the kids he always seemed happy. He joked around alot with
them. They don't understand how someone can appear happy but not be. Someone
recommended a place to take the kids that helps kids with grieving a close
family member. My kids say they are not going. I don't want to push them,
but at the same time, I feel like Eric in particular is really trying to
avoid even thinking about it. He doesn't want to talk about it. It is so
hard to know what to do. Also, he is lashing out at Sam and being really
mean to him. It is difficult to get him to stop doing this. I feel like I am
out of ideas. Eric has had alot of issues with jealously even before this
happened. They are twins, and are both boys, so this is playing into
everything. I am getting therapy trying to cope with losing my brother, it
all feels so overwhelming. I just thought maybe someone might have some
experience with this. Also, any thoughts or insights on grieving with kids?
They are 10 years old.

Thank you,
Amie






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Sandra Dodd

-=-RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DECEASED.......No outsider is able to
determine the special bond that connects two people, regardless of
the relationship, role or length of time the relationship has been in
existence.
Our relationship with the deceased has a great deal to do with the
intensity and duration of our grief.
What was that relationship? Was the deceased a spouse? A child? A
parent? A friend? A sibling?
How strong was the attachment to the deceased? Was it a close,
dependent relationship, or intermittent and independent? What was the
degree of ambivalence (the love/hate balance) in that relationship?
It is not only the person, but also the role that person played in
our life which is lost.
How major was that role? Was that person the sole breadwinner, the
driver, the handler of financial matters? The only one who could fix
a decent dinner? Was that person a main emotional support, an only
friend? How dependent were we on the role that person filled?-=-
========================
Nicole, that's a nice site. http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/
beyond_surviving.shtml
I brought a piece here.

Sometimes survivors get cranky with one another because they don't
handle it similarly, and the page above discusses that.

Two friends of mine, kids in band with me, one was in my Sunday
School class, the other had been my 8th grade boyfriend, killed
themselves at 14 and 15. We all had things to feel guilty about.
I've had other friends commit suicide since. It's rough.

My dad died naturally (VA hospital helped, but it wasn't suicide).
My sister and I first were disagreeing about how he was as a dad, and
I quickly realized we didn't need to agree about it. We were 22 and
25, I think, and my relationship with him was just very different
from hers and that was fine.

Since then it's been easier and clearer to me. Still not easy, but
much less frustrating.

My husband's brother died at 54 recently of lung cancer, pretty
suddenly. Diagnosed and dead within a week. Kirby didn't know him
very well and about a month later he had a huge attack of double
guilt, because he hadn't known him well enough to feel really bad
about it, and thought he should have taken the opportunity and all
that. I assured him it was really okay that he hadn't known him
differently or better.

My dad's mom seemed disturbed that I had fond memories of my Papaw
(who died naturally). I thought of him as a really nice guy who took
me for rides in his big old car and got me "pop" (Dr Pepper in a
bottle) and let me sit in his lap. She had lots of bad stories on
him and frustration and anger. She thought I should know about those
things, but I told her that wasn't MY relationship with him.

Maybe some of that kind of exploration would help your kids. They
don't need to know anything about their uncle except what they
experienced with him themselves. He will live in each person's
memory in a different way.

I was going through photos yesterday and putting some up where others
could get to them. I just finished writing a brief blurb about my
husband's first SCA squire, who hiked up into the mountains and took
aspirin and liquor and died, because he had been convicted of picking
up an arrowhead on federal property and keeping it, and because his
girlfriend broke up with him.

I came across another photo, looking for that one, of another friend,
an alcoholic, who went through friends and relatives in Arizona,
moved here and went through our crowd (he lived at our house for a
year and some) and then moved to Utah, irritated a group of people
there, and killed himself. He was sweet when he was sweet, and awful
when he was drinking.

But with depression and suicidal thoughts, there don't even have to
be "reasons" like those. It can be no more than the feeling that
life is just very, very tiring and futile and it would be nice not to
wake up. I know because I've had that feeling. It wasn't a spiteful
or mean or fearful feeling, just a wistful kind of wish for
darkness. Counselling can help! (Anti-depressants can help.)

Maybe talk to your children about that, too. Say sometimes things
like that can be related to depression, and that might be genetic,
and if they do start feeling those feelings they should go to a
counsellor who can help them come back away from the edge.

Sandra

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Vida

Amie,

I was very close to my father. When he died I didn't grieve as I
thought I would. I couldn't handle breaking down because it was just
too painful to go there at that time. I needed the freedom to grieve
as I needed to, which was a little bit at a time. Being a grown up,
I had that right. People didn't push me to do this or that, or
behave in a way they thought I should. Maybe Eric is just grieving
in his own way... the way he needs to. I think if you keep the
channels of communication as open as possible, and, as Gail said,
talk about what you are feeling (perhaps recognizing that an
unexpected outburst had its roots in your own grieving and bringing
that out) will help your boys deal with their own feelings. Space
to grieve in their own way may be the best "therapy". I would
suggest giving it some time as well.

Vida


.............................................
Vida M. Evenson
www.aegean-villas.com
www.paintinggreece.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], "Amie" <amiersa2@...> wrote:
>
> I am wondering if anyone can help me with some ideas on how to
assist my kids right now.

Amie,

First I am so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and your
kids.

Your kids and you are moving through a process that there is no way
around. I know you are full up dealing with your own pain right now,
but helping them grieve sucessfully is one of the most important
things. Getting stuck in unresolved loss can have lifetime impact.

I did facilitating for foster and adoptive families for years and my
specialty was helping kids in grief.

Also all of my kids have loss issues of their bio families, but the
one we saw the loss with the most profoundly was Ty. He came to us
at nearly seven after having an adoptive family of four years give
him back to the state. That boy had grief.

Some of the things we did was to keep talking and keeping the focus
on the actual issue. When he was angry and mean to his sister, we
helped him refocus on what he was actually upset about. Sometimes it
took guess work on our part and it took him a long time to actually
trust us. But all of the feelings, anger, despair, depression,
confusion, denial are part of moving through it. They are not
comfortable, they are not fun for anyone. Kids process emotionally
and those emotions bubble up physically. It is up to us to help them
have the words to process what they are feeling.

In the research done on grief an average, well coping, adult takes
about two years to process a big loss. In comparison it takes a
child six to eight years.

Some of the things that help us process those losses are the support
we get from other people.

I remember when my fil was killed. I just kept calling and talking
to people. I am certain I repeated and repeated myself, but it was
the way I had to move through that loss. Kids do not always know
what words to put to their feelings and often need help with that.

Ty has now lived in our home for two and a half years. He still
experiences some seasonal grief, like the time of year he lost his
family he will be angry or sad. I really try and pay attention and
know when those times might be coming up. I help him identify what
is going on with him. His overall sadness and anger have passed.
They have moved through him like a wave. Holidays were especially
hard for him and he has had several that were joyous now and not
filled with emotional past ghosts. So what I am trying to share is
you and your kids will heal through this.

My thoughts and prayers are with you,

Kathleen

Pam Tellew

One of the things I've learned is from my own grief and being with
others who've had losses is that, developmentally, kids tend to do it
differently. Young kids might seem to ignore it and simply go on
with their play. Teens often have a lot of anger. I forget the
details. Barbara Coloroso has a book, Parenting Through
Crisis, that is helpful on what it's like for kids as well as how to
get through it as a parent. One thing I do remember reading when a
friend died and her daughter was 10 was that many pre-adolescents
have delayed grief that hits them maybe five years later when they're
maybe more able to wrestle with bigger ideas and issues. I know it
said that for girls in that huge enormous mother loss situation. Not
sure if was more universally applicable.

Another thing that a grief counselor told me - for me - that has
helped me and lots of the people I've shared it with is from the
title of a poem, "Grief is a Circular Staircase." The surprising
thing for me about grief is how it seems like you keep circling back
around the same places. It's really different than Elizabeth
Kubler-Ross' stages of grief model which is very linear, first
denial, then... I think those "stages" happen but not necessarily in
order and you don't necessarily "finish" a stage before moving
on. It's like a circular staircase, where you come around to the
same place you were before, but with a different perspective, higher
up, more removed maybe. But just because you feel anger at some
point a few years later, it doesn't mean you aren't healing. I can
still feel shock that my mother's dead, even ten years later, though
not nearly so often and not nearly so intensely as shortly after. I
wish I could find the poem. Maybe that isn't the title google didn't
turn up much besides Robert Frost and staircase kits.

Be gentle with yourself and each other.

Pam

Pam Tellew

<<I remember when my fil was killed. I just kept calling and talking
to people. I am certain I repeated and repeated myself, but it was
the way I had to move through that loss.>>
I read about a village in some less developed part of the world where
the ritual was, when someone died, each person in the village went to
the bereaved family and said, "Tell me how it happened,'" and by the
time the whole village had done this, the shock had gone out of the
thing. Maybe it would help some kids who don't want to bring it up
themselves. I wouldn't want anybody to be forced to talk this way but
can understand that it might be helpful for many.
(My dad grew up in Iraq where the custom was wailing and wearing
black and crying loudly and he found it very oppressive and was
somewhat glad for the more reserved American way. I, on the other
hand, would like it to be more acceptable to wail and cry than it is here!)
Pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], Pam Tellew <pamtellew@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I read about a village in some less developed part of the world
where
> the ritual was, when someone died, each person in the village went
to
> the bereaved family and said, "Tell me how it happened,'" and by
the
> time the whole village had done this, the shock had gone out of
the
> thing. Maybe it would help some kids who don't want to bring it
up
> themselves.


I think that is really beautiful.


With Ty I talked a lot about my own feelings on it. His adoptive
family
were close friends of mine and their decision to disrupt the
adoption
was devistating for us.

I said things like, When I think about it I get sooo angry. I feel
really sad that it happened. Mothers are supposed to love their
kids
and protect them. I am sad you did not have a mother that did that.
He
then in turn had permission to share his feelings. He one day asked
to
call former mom and confronted her with the whys'. He yelled at her
and she said she was sorry. He layed in his bed and cried for hours
with me just rubbing his back. This is one incident. He moved
through
this grief like you shared on a spiral staircase. But the more he
shared and processed the smaller it became.

He recently had his former brother and sister over for a visit on
his
ninth birthday. When they left he said he really does not feel sad
anymore. I told him that was okay.

One thing that was really important and may apply to Amie and her
boys
is Ty did not know it was okay to be angry at her initially. He kept
trying to figure it out and had huge self blame.He thought he was a
bad
kid. That he should have done things differently.


Then once he knew he
could be angry he also needed to know it was okay to still love her.
Once we were driving and from the backseat he asked if I loved her
even
though I was mad. Remember she was my friend long before he came
into her
life. I explained to him how I had known her for twenty years and I
really did love her and that was why what happened hurt me so
deeply.
He then shared that he loved her a lot too. I think it is very
conflictual to be angry at someone that you love, especially when
that
person is not there to remedy the situation with.

Kathleen

Amie

I just wanted to thank everyone that has responded to my post. Thank you for the websites and book recommendations. This has been the hardest journey of my life, and it is only the beginning. Thanks again.

Amie

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Cathy

Sorry - You have to click on the whole link, or else it doesn't work - it
didn't come up properly on the email for some reason..

Regards

Cathy


http://www.ritualwell.org/lifecycles/death/funeralburial/16TheFiveStagesofGr
ief.xml/view?searchterm







_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Cathy
Sent: 17 May 2007 08:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and grieving



Hi Pam

You wrote: ".I wish I could find the poem.."

Is it this one?

http://www.ritualwe
<http://www.ritualwell.org/lifecycles/death/funeralburial/16TheFiveStagesofG
r> ll.org/lifecycles/death/funeralburial/16TheFiveStagesofGr
ief.xml/view?searchterm

Regards

Cathy

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