John Rizzo

My wife and I are embarking on unschooling with dd who is 3.5 and ds who is 1. We came upon unschooling through our efforts to become unconditional parents over the past 1.5 years and our unsatisfactory pre-school experience.

Our current issue is with freedom of choice with respect to food. DD eats very little and always wants treats (cookies, candy, etc.). We always have healthy snacks available and we currently limit the amount of treats dd can have in a day. This creates some conflict and frustration on all parties.

It really feels like we are teaching her to have an unhealthy attitude toward food and that we are not respecting her enough. On the other hand, it is our job to keep her healthy and get her proper nutrition.

Is there any collective wisdom on the list about where to draw the line, or even if the line should be drawn?

Thanks,

John Rizzo


---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<< Is there any collective wisdom on the list about where to draw the
line, or even if the line should be drawn? >>>>

The Food board at www.unschooling.info is

http://www.unschooling.info/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=34

Sandra's food page:

http://sandradodd.com/food

(Especially read Pam's essay about the economics of food restriction.)

Joyce's Food page:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/food/food.html

A useful book about food and diets:

"The Gospel of Food: Everything you think you know about food is wrong" by
Barry Glasner.

http://www.skeptic.com/lectures/2007/01/07/the-gospel-of-food/#more-77
includes some blurb for his lecture (available to buy) which I attended.

Have no fear - your dd knows how to eat well for *her* body's needs. Let her
listen to it. Have a cornucopia available. All will be well.

Robyn L. Coburn

Sandra Dodd

-=-DD eats very little and always wants treats (cookies, candy,
etc.).-=-

Using terms like "treats" (even if only in your head) contributes to
the problem.

Let her choose foods without labels and you will see her choose a
variety of foods. Limit (or even define) "treats" and you will have
added to a bad situation.

=Is there any collective wisdom on the list about where to draw the
line, or even if the line should be drawn?=

http://sandradodd.com/food

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/food/food.html

It's still about learning, but even more than other areas, there are
also instincts that will kick in once the artificial framework is
removed, and your child will learn to listen to her own body about
what she needs instead of looking in a magazine article or asking you.

Many parents report having learned to eat better themselves after
seeing their children make choices.

it will take a while to settle, and the more controls and shaming and
labels there were before, the longer it might take.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Machaj

I found this book, "Preventing Childhood Eating Problems" to be
helpful and interesting. Very unschooly.
http://www.overcomingovereating.com/childhood.html

And I know there have been plenty of discussions about it on the
yahoo group AlwaysUnschooled.

My dd is 3.5 yo and we have no restrictions or rules about food. She
has access to the pantry and we put things she likes on low shelves
and leave a bowl of fruit and other easily eaten items out on the
table or counters. She often helps herself to things in the fridge.
Sometimes it seems like all she is eating for days on end is bologna,
but then she will just naturally balance it out by eating fruit for
days, then bread and tortillas, etc. It certainly doesnt look like "3
square" meals a day, but over the week or longer, it would all
average out.

HTH,

Nancy


*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Fritcher

Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
>
>
>
> Have no fear - your dd knows how to eat well for *her* body's needs.
> Let her listen to it. Have a cornucopia available. All will be well.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>


*********

I missed the original post, sorry.
Kids know how to eat. We only get messed up when we start putting
external rules to an internal process. Provide tons of options and go
from there. I've recently begun trying to reverse decades of diet
mentality in myself and I notice that even though I've tried not to do
that to my daughter, I've already put rules to what, when, where, why,
etc she can and can't eat. I wish I hadn't done that. I'm trying to
reverse that trend for her as well. If she chooses to eat ramen for
every meal for a week, who am I to say no. Today she chose a PB&J
instead w/ no prompting from me. Good for her. :) Good for me too. :)

Melissa F.

Meredith

--- In [email protected], John Rizzo <jmcrizzo@...>
wrote:
>> Our current issue is with freedom of choice with respect to
>food. DD eats very little and always wants treats (cookies, candy,
>etc.).

I find it helpful to look at the various factors that make "treats"
attractive. Since portability, availability of small portions, and
attractive presentation are all things my dd finds appealing, I try
to add those elements to more nutritious foods, especially if she's
not eating a whole lot. One way I do that if Mo's really focussed on
a project and forgetting to eat, is to put together a mixed plate
with tiny portions of different foods - maybe just all on the plate,
maybe in little bowls or cups - and bringing it right to her so that
she doesn't have to stop what she's doing to eat. I include things
like cookies and chips in with other offerrings, and often she'll
eat some of everything, or ignore the "treats" altogether.

Another method I use, if she's prefrerring to get her own food, is
to make individual servings of home-made or bulk foods in baggies or
wraps or bowls, and decant milk and juice into smaller containers
that are easier for her to pour.

I find that sort of attention to detail helps Mo make decisions
about food based more on what her body needs. My stepson, too, for
that matter. He's perfectly happy to heat up nutritous leftovers
when he's up late at night, but doesn't have a lot of confidence
when it comes to cooking from scratch, so he prefers to make
convenience foods. Keeping the fridge stocked with foods that are
easy *and* nutritious lets him make a decision based on something
other than convenience.

All that being said, sometimes someone in the family wants to eat a
lot of cookies, or boxed mac'n'cheese for a couple days, or
whatever. I really believe that bc we've chosen not to create a
power struggle over those sorts of things its much easier for Mo and
Ray to experiment with that kind of eating, learn what they want to
learn from it, and move on. Its noticabley harder for me or my
partner to move on when its one of us who wants to eat cookies all
day (guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt).

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

John Rizzo

I appreciate all the feedback. One of our concerns is the terrible
behavior that would accompany any period of adjustment to complete
freedom. This is not an unfounded or made up fear.

When DD crashes after having alot of sugar, she gets very physically
aggressive with us and her little brother, she also gets very angry and
ends up screaming alot. This makes it hard on the whole family.

Is this just something we would have to get through? Any ideas for
minimizing this negative period.

This is one of our daily struggles; how do we give DD freedom when that
freedom encroaches on the well-being of DS or my wife?

So while intellectually I have no problem with digesting that it will
all even out in time, emotionally I am worried about the impacts on the
family during the process.

Thanks,

John Rizzo

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-DD eats very little and always wants treats (cookies, candy,
> etc.).-=-
>
> Using terms like "treats" (even if only in your head) contributes to
> the problem.
>
> Let her choose foods without labels and you will see her choose a
> variety of foods. Limit (or even define) "treats" and you will have
> added to a bad situation.
>

Fetteroll

On May 11, 2007, at 2:37 PM, John Rizzo wrote:

> she gets very physically
> aggressive with us and her little brother, she also gets very angry
> and
> ends up screaming alot.

Is it the diet that causes is or because she hasn't gotten a handle
on mastering the emotions?

What if she was a violin virtuoso and practiced for hours at a
stretch but playing for that long would cause her to bounce off the
walls afterward. Would you take the violin away to stop the bouncing?

Assume she doesn't want to be angry and scream. (And *also* doesn't
want her food restricted.) Rather than imposing a solution, *help*
her figure out techniques to handle the overload of emotions. (Others
will have some grand ideas. At my house we're inordinately calm so I
never had to stretch those muscles much ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John Rizzo

We are working on helping her manage her emotions in general, but it
really is the diet that triggers the terrible times. She does a
pretty good job staying on track when she is feeling good and rested,
and tends to lose it when sick and tired (like everyone else). Since
sugar contributes (main contributor) to sick and tired, it really is
an issue of diet.

It's not the bouncing off the walls of the sugar rush that is the
problem, it is the physical crash that occurs after.

This is where I know intellectually that her body would eventually
regulate itself because it is no fun to feel bad after eating a lot
of junk. However, how many hits, pushes, scratches, screams must
everyone else endure during the regulation process? Is it even fair
to make the decision for DS to subject him to this for the good of DD?

Thanks,

John Rizzo

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
wrote:
>
>
> On May 11, 2007, at 2:37 PM, John Rizzo wrote:
>
> > she gets very physically
> > aggressive with us and her little brother, she also gets very
angry
> > and
> > ends up screaming alot.
>
> Is it the diet that causes is or because she hasn't gotten a
handle
> on mastering the emotions?
>
> What if she was a violin virtuoso and practiced for hours at a
> stretch but playing for that long would cause her to bounce off
the
> walls afterward. Would you take the violin away to stop the
bouncing?
>
> Assume she doesn't want to be angry and scream. (And *also*
doesn't
> want her food restricted.) Rather than imposing a solution,
*help*
> her figure out techniques to handle the overload of emotions.
(Others
> will have some grand ideas. At my house we're inordinately calm so
I
> never had to stretch those muscles much ;-)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

jenstarc4

> When DD crashes after having alot of sugar, she gets very
physically
> aggressive with us and her little brother, she also gets very angry
and
> ends up screaming alot. This makes it hard on the whole family.

I can only speak from my own experience. Generally when one of my
children are very hungry, they will naturally go for easy sugars. If
I don't attend to their hunger needs in advance, then cookies and the
like will get eaten. If their blood sugar levels spike, then crash,
they feel cranky and irritable without realizing why.

If at that time, I offer up a plate of food with protein and other
stuff, they will gobble it down and feel better and be nicer. It's
best though, to recognize when they are starting to get hungry,
before they load up on stuff that will make them crash.

I am by no means telling my kids that they can't have those easy
sugars, I just try to give it to them with other food too, before
they get so hungry they want whats easiest, and what their bodies
know will give them that quick boost it needs.

Some kids like sugar more than others. I have one child that hardly
ever eats candy, but will eat chocolate or cookies or ice cream, and
another child that will most often eat candy over cookies or ice
cream, or sometimes they want it all, and sometimes none of it.

Once you get rid of the control, kids find balance for their own
particular bodies.

jenstarc4

>
> It's not the bouncing off the walls of the sugar rush that is the
> problem, it is the physical crash that occurs after.
>

I wanted to add too, that not all kids crash this way from sugar. I
have one child that would just fall asleep after crashing and wake up
refreshed and hungry. My other child does more what you are
describing, but really, if I just offer her some other foods,
especially protein, the problem resolves itself pretty quickly.

We've been doing this so long now, that my 5 yo, the one who does the
crashing like you describe, recognizes it for herself and asks for
protein.

John Rizzo

Thanks for the advice. DD gets lots of protein. When she eats it is
usually eggs, nuts, cheese or yogurt.

We have a snack tray (fruit, chips, crackers, cheese, beans, etc.)
available all day and she has easy access to the fridge and cupboards.

These things do not help if she has unfettered access to sugary foods.

-John Rizzo

--- In [email protected], "jenstarc4" <jenstarc4@...>
wrote:
>
> >
> > It's not the bouncing off the walls of the sugar rush that is the
> > problem, it is the physical crash that occurs after.
> >
>
> I wanted to add too, that not all kids crash this way from sugar. I
> have one child that would just fall asleep after crashing and wake up
> refreshed and hungry. My other child does more what you are
> describing, but really, if I just offer her some other foods,
> especially protein, the problem resolves itself pretty quickly.
>
> We've been doing this so long now, that my 5 yo, the one who does the
> crashing like you describe, recognizes it for herself and asks for
> protein.
>

Sandra Dodd

I'm really busy this weekend and don't have time to research this,
but there have been tests that showed it wasn't sugar that caused
excitement in children, but the excitement of the party (birthday
cake) or the privilege (having something that's usually denied) and
not the sugar itself.

In the tests (someone here will know where the reports are, I hope),
parents reported themselves that their chidren were or weren't having
"a sugar high" but some of those kids had had no sugar at all.

It's another boogeyman parents use to control children and the fact
that the parents believe there really is a boogeyman doesn't make it
any more real.

When I was little there were lies parents believed about coffee (will
stunt your growth) and chocolate (will give you zits, will give you
exzema) but it seems really they just didn't want to share expensive
Valentines' chocolates with little kids or share expensive (or the-
privilege-of-grownups) coffee.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-. She does a
pretty good job staying on track when she is feeling good and rested,
and tends to lose it when sick and tired (like everyone else). Since
sugar contributes (main contributor) to sick and tired, it really is
an issue of diet.
-=-

I had already written my other post about sugar as a boogeyman when I
read this.

If you feel that you're somehow keeping her healthy by controlling
her diet for her, you will have a very difficult time not controlling
other parts of her life.

If you saw some of the unschooled teens, how healthy they are and how
UNlikely they are to be eating Twinkies, you would feel differently
right then and there.

In the meantime, please try not to discuss the boogeyman too much on
the list.

It is NOT "really an issue of diet," it's an issue of fallacy and
magical thinking.

-=-However, how many hits, pushes, scratches, screams must
everyone else endure during the regulation process? Is it even fair
to make the decision for DS to subject him to this for the good of
DD?-=-

You'll be blaming her (or rather sugar) for not giving him more
freedom with food.

Here's how we dealt with hitting in a home where food was never
controlled from the time they were babies:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

If you wonder if my kids are any damned good, here are some recent
testimonials on the middle one:
http://sandradodd.com/marty/thatmarty

If you want your chidren to have choices, freedom and respect, you
simply have to GIVE them choices, freedom and respect.

Limited choice is false choice, pretty much, though.
http://sandradodd.com/yes
http://sandradodd.com/choice

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

Hi, John

Just some 'random neural firings' on this from my own experience that
may or may not be helpful. This goes right back to when my now grown
up never unschooled daughter was a baby and I first became a stay-at-
home dad, so it's not strictly 'unschooling' - but, if I might be so
bold as to put it this way, it's my view that unschooling parents
have this right where conventional parents don't.

I read something in a self-help book about the time I became a parent
that stuck with me because it resonated with my parenting philosophy
of "baby steps and continuous forward movement". Don't recall now who
to thank for putting that idea into words for me, but this is from a
guy called Ken Keyes Jr. and he called it something like 'Three Rules
for Happiness':

1. Ask for what you want - but don't demand it.

2. Accept whatever happens - for now.

3. Turn up your love - even if you don't get what you want.

How does this work for me in practice?

Well, right now, my 11 year old son Pat won't eat fruit. In fact,
that's been the case for most of his childhood. I want him to eat
fruit. That's for my benefit - then I'm a 'good' parent, right? What
a relief. Who wants to be thought of as a 'bad' parent?

So, one day Pat's a bit peckish, and I ask him, "Would you like
a banana?" (He did eat bananas when he was a toddler)

"No thanks."

"Okay. What would you like?"

"Would you cook me some rice?"

"Sure."

And so we get on with our lives.

I still want Pat to eat fruit. Maybe a couple of days later, Pat's in
the pantry looking for something to snack on.

"There are some bananas here if you want one."

"No thanks."

End of conversation.

Maybe a couple of days later I'm eating a banana myself and I say to
Pat, "Mmmm ... I love bananas. Did you know bananas are one of the
most nutritional foods you can eat?"

Pat says, "Bob, I know you're trying to trick me into eating a banana
and it won't work."

And we both burst out laughing.

Maybe Pat will eat bananas one day, maybe he won't. I want him to.
I'm also okay with his decision either way.

In the meantime, I've made some major changes to my own diet as a
result of wondering about what my son eats, while learning not to be
too concerned about that. That's made me a more useful model. My son
won't eat vegetables either. But it's worth noting that he does drink
mostly water, sometimes milk, and won't touch fizzy drinks (soda); he
rarely eats candy ('lollies' here in Australia) and the only 'junk
food' he likes is potato chips and mcnuggets. So it's not all bad. :)

That reminds me of something from my daughter's early childhood in
rural England. Sometimes when she and I were in the village shop,
she'd ask for some candy ('sweets' in England) and, me being me, I'd
say, "What would you like?" So we would get home with a big bag of
sweets and Bronnie would eat one or a few and decide to save the rest
for later. Usually, she'd end up sharing them with her playmates,
and, if that didn't happen, the bag of sweets would be in her room
completely untouched, sometimes for weeks.

One day when she was about six or seven, my daughter had a box of
Smarties (do you have those in America? They're like M&Ms). It had
been inside an Easter egg she'd previously eaten and she'd had this
box of Smarties for days without opening it. Some of her friends came
to play after school - four other girls - and Bronnie opened the box
of Smarties and laid them all out in rows on the table according to
their colour, as you do, maybe sixty or seventy Smarties all
together, and she invited her friends to help themselves if they
wanted some. It was like a feeding frenzy at the zoo. I'm standing
there watching this with my eyes popping out of my head, thinking
maybe that wasn't such a good idea if the other girls were going home
to have their tea, but too late, so I suggested to Bronnie she might
like to grab a few Smarties herself before they all go. I could see
from the look on her face that she was thinking something
like, "Hmmm ... that was unexpected."

Well, when I was a boy, my parents were poor (my wife and I aren't)
and sweets were a luxury. It's more difficult for some parents than
it is for others to be supportive of what their children want. If
they choose to be. That wasn't the case with my parents. I got a
small bag of sweets once a week, on a Saturday, that was supposed to
last me until the next Saturday - but it *was* contingent upon
me 'being good'. That's a different consideration.

All I know is that I hardly ever eat candy myself these days, but,
only last week, I bought a big bag of marshmallows and ate every one
of them myself in about ten minutes. And felt sick afterwards. That
was totally triggered by childhood memories and nothing to do with
food. I wasn't even hungry, never mind hungry for candy.

Food as a substitute for other things - a deep and complex subject.
Every body is different. And we really don't know what's for our
children's good. All the more reason for us to trust our children to
trust what their own bodies tell them so that food is all about what
our body actually needs and not what our mind thinks it needs.

Bob



--- In [email protected], John Rizzo <jmcrizzo@...>
wrote:
>
> My wife and I are embarking on unschooling with dd who is 3.5 and
ds who is 1. We came upon unschooling through our efforts to become
unconditional parents over the past 1.5 years and our unsatisfactory
pre-school experience.
>
> Our current issue is with freedom of choice with respect to
food. DD eats very little and always wants treats (cookies, candy,
etc.). We always have healthy snacks available and we currently
limit the amount of treats dd can have in a day. This creates some
conflict and frustration on all parties.
>
> It really feels like we are teaching her to have an unhealthy
attitude toward food and that we are not respecting her enough. On
the other hand, it is our job to keep her healthy and get her proper
nutrition.
>
> Is there any collective wisdom on the list about where to draw
the line, or even if the line should be drawn?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Rizzo
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>>
> If you want your chidren to have choices, freedom and respect, you
> simply have to GIVE them choices, freedom and respect.
>
>


Sometimes I think there are many parents who say they want their
children to be happy and then will refuse to do the things they can
do that will make their children happy to please somebody who's only
in their head.

When I first became a stay-at-home dad and I was home alone with my
daughter for most of the day, I used to say to her, "Well, this is
our home and there's only you and me here, so I guess we can do
whatever we like." That was a very liberating thought. Helped rid me
of the 'shoulds' very early on in my parenting life.

Bob

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/11/2007 4:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jenstarc4@... writes:

If at that time, I offer up a plate of food with protein and other
stuff, they will gobble it down and feel better and be nicer. It's
best though, to recognize when they are starting to get hungry,
before they load up on stuff that will make them crash.



I noticed mine have been coming downstairs in the morning and heading
straight for the "sweet", this clarifies things a bit in my thought process. I had
just figured that as kids, they needed more *quick* energy than I do
(especially after 10 hours of fasting while they sleep!), and just didn't have time
to wait for me to make something. Does anyone have suggestions on what I could
assemble the night before and have on their table (which they go by to get
to the sweet stuff) that 1. won't spoil while we're sleeping (neither of them
like warm cheese), 2. the cats are unlikely to dig into and 3. have some
nutrition (protein is our favorite sugar-crash-spoiler) in them? Thanks.

Peace,
Sang

Wyl 4/99 and Storm 10/04




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 11, 2007, at 1:18 PM, John Rizzo wrote:

> Since
> sugar contributes (main contributor) to sick and tired, it really is
> an issue of diet.


I know how many parents believe that sugar causes out of control
behavior in their young children, but no double-blind studies (in
which children, parents, and researchers do not know if the children
are getting sugar or a placebo) have found that sugar has a
significant effect on behavior.

Here is a little summary of the scientific research on this issue.
<http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516>

Even if you are totally convinced that it IS the sugar, it might be
worthwhile to pretend it isn't and focus elsewhere. For example, if a
meltdown is happening, quit thinking, "Oh, this is the result of all
that sugar," but consider other possible reasons - what needs of hers
are not being met?

Blaming sugar can be an easy way out - it lets the parents sort of
off the hook for figuring out what the child's problem really is.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

I've always been dubious about that food and behaviour thing, even
when it's been promoted by those who are rightly dismissive of that
other popular myth, 'ADHD'. Nice work. Thanks. I'll link to that one
in the next issue.

Bob



--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 11, 2007, at 1:18 PM, John Rizzo wrote:
>
> > Since
> > sugar contributes (main contributor) to sick and tired, it really
is
> > an issue of diet.
>
>
> I know how many parents believe that sugar causes out of control
> behavior in their young children, but no double-blind studies (in
> which children, parents, and researchers do not know if the
children
> are getting sugar or a placebo) have found that sugar has a
> significant effect on behavior.
>
> Here is a little summary of the scientific research on this issue.
> <http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52516>
>
> Even if you are totally convinced that it IS the sugar, it might
be
> worthwhile to pretend it isn't and focus elsewhere. For example, if
a
> meltdown is happening, quit thinking, "Oh, this is the result of
all
> that sugar," but consider other possible reasons - what needs of
hers
> are not being met?
>
> Blaming sugar can be an easy way out - it lets the parents sort of
> off the hook for figuring out what the child's problem really is.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fetteroll

On May 11, 2007, at 5:06 PM, John Rizzo wrote:

> However, how many hits, pushes, scratches, screams must
> everyone else endure during the regulation process? Is it even fair
> to make the decision for DS to subject him to this for the good of DD?

He shouldn't be hit at all. He should feel safe in his own home.

The situation is characterized as either she gets free access to
sugar and hits her brother or her sugar is restricted and he doesn't
get hit. Those aren't the only two options. *Whatever the cause*, if
she's in a mood to hit, she shouldn't be left alone with him. She
should be off doing something more interesting.

> These things do not help if she has unfettered access to sugary foods.

If you feel it's the sugar and you don't have older kids, why are
there sugary foods in your house? It's cruel to bring it in and then
say "No, you can't have it," or "You can have it only when I say it's
okay."

If she's reaching for sugar a lot, it could be she's gearing up for a
growth spurt and it's her body's way of packing in the calories it
needs. If sugar is combined with whole grains and fat it's going to
slow how quickly it's absorbed and how quickly the blood sugar goes
up. Rather than restricting her, think in terms of expanding her diet
to *help* her: whole grain muffins, peanut butter and oatmeal cookies
made with whole grain flour and so on.

Is it plausible that a 3.5 yo body wouldn't yet be able to
emotionally handle the rapid body chemistry changes that come from
foods that are converted so quickly by the body? It's plausible,
certainly. I'm skeptical but you're convinced. The problem, as far as
the conversation goes, is that from your point of absolute certainty
that sugar is the cause you're asking people who aren't certain for
permission to restrict your daughter's diet. (Which is why you're
getting debate on whether sugar is really a problem or not.)

To get useful answers you can either

1) convince people here that sugar really is a problem -- though I
would advise against that since it could get messy (and boring for
people who just want unschooling discussion), but you could look in
the archives for information on how unschoolers help children with
food allergies like peanuts and wheat gluten, or

2) ask for advice about how to help her with emotions that change
rapidly (people have dealt with kids whose emotions run high so
there's lots of wisdom along those lines.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
>>Does anyone have suggestions on what I could
> assemble the night before and have on their table (which they go by
to get
> to the sweet stuff) that 1. won't spoil while we're sleeping
(neither of them
> like warm cheese), 2. the cats are unlikely to dig into and 3. have
some
> nutrition (protein is our favorite sugar-crash-spoiler) in them?

Tins work well for keeping cats off food. I like to make cookies with
peanut and other nut butters or nut-meals for added protein. I
generally use 1/2 the sugar in a recipe, and the kids consistently
choose them over store-bought.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

pentaitalia

>
> If you wonder if my kids are any damned good, here are some
recent
> testimonials on the middle one:
> http://sandradodd.com/marty/thatmarty

Sandra, I just clicked in to the Marty Testimonials, and Diana's
recount of Marty being chased by a little girl was priceless...and
the tears are streaming down my face! That little girl was one of my
4 year old twins! She was completely smitten with Marty, and so
excited that he chose her to be Goose!
Once we were home and browsing through our photos, there was one of
Marty kneeling down and whispering something into the twins' ears on
stage at the talent show! Viola piped up "I like that boy, he
said "You were awesome!" They were beaming with their memories of
Marty and how kind and gentle he was with them!
My 11 year old unbenownst to me also spent quite a bit of time with
Marty over the weekend.

Wow. Thanks so much for sharing him with us at Life is Good! Life
really IS Good! :)

Shonna (Canadian mamma to 5 (newly) happyily unschooled kidlets! :)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "John Rizzo" <jmcrizzo@...>
wrote:
> When DD crashes after having alot of sugar, she gets very physically
> aggressive with us and her little brother, she also gets very angry
and
> ends up screaming alot. This makes it hard on the whole family.

I really recommend reading here:
http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html

Danielle has written quite a bit about helping her son, Sam, deal with
his intense emotions *and* food sensitivities in ways that are
respectful of him - and not so incidentally of his sisters and
parents.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

diana jenner

On 5/12/07, Meredith <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
> >>Does anyone have suggestions on what I could
> > assemble the night before and have on their table (which they go by
> to get
> > to the sweet stuff) that 1. won't spoil while we're sleeping
> (neither of them
> > like warm cheese), 2. the cats are unlikely to dig into and 3. have
> some
> > nutrition (protein is our favorite sugar-crash-spoiler) in them?
>
> Tins work well for keeping cats off food. I like to make cookies with
> peanut and other nut butters or nut-meals for added protein. I
> generally use 1/2 the sugar in a recipe, and the kids consistently
> choose them over store-bought.
>
>

-=-Thanks for reminding me! I love to make the rice crispie bar recipe
except with Cheerios and 1/2c peanut butter. They store well (if you can
keep em around!). We need some of those!! :^)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], John Rizzo <jmcrizzo@...> wrote:
>
> > Our current issue is with freedom of choice with respect to
food. DD eats very little and always wants treats (cookies, candy,
etc.). We always have healthy snacks available and we currently limit
the amount of treats dd can have in a day. This creates some conflict
and frustration on all parties.

I have nine children and unlike lots of folks did not start out with a
clear parenting philosophy or plan. What I have discovered is
modelling is our best way to share with our kids.

I currently have seven kids at home. Somedays they eat more processed
foods and some days those foods dry out on the counter and they are
eating salads and fruit. Overall the bigger issue it is for you the
more you are creating the thing you want to avoid.

I am a fairly healthy eater. I vocalize why I eat what I do , when the
kids ask. I personally try to avoid processed foods because they make
me feel bad. The kids all know and respect my choices.

When I go to the store I always ask what they would like to add to the
list. It can be fruit snacks, or grapefruit or whatever they are
craving or wanting. I try to honor what they are wanting at the time.
The less I differenciate on what they are choosing< GOOD FOOD BAD
FOOD> and just eat the food that I like the more my kids eat great
food. Not always ds just ate a box of oreos while reading Legend of
Zelda stories on the internet. Tomorrow he may eat salad covered in
homemade ranch all day.

my .02

Kathleen

John Rizzo

I must not be communicating very well, because I thought I made it
clear that I thought the restriction was probably bad (and I am
convinced of that), but that there were consequences I was trying to
minimize if the restrictions were lifted.

We are doing just about everything recommended as far as expanding
opportunities to nutrition and also are actively teaching her to deal
with her emotions. I appreciate that people start there, because I
can see where all these things need to be done and that some parents
may not be aware. It also might be relevant to note that she is in OT
for sensory integration issues.

A couple of points though. Nobody knows my family, but lets assume we
are on our way to giving as much freedom as possible and this is one
of our last stumbling blocks. Also, lets assume we know our children
and we know what makes behavior we are actively addressing worse. I
can assure you I am not looking for a boogeyman to control my kids,
just the opposite, I was seeking wisdom on how to let go of control
while reducing negative consequences to the rest of the family.

So here is a more on topic unschooling question, how do people handle
conflicts when DD and DS want completely different things and both
cannot be given their freedom to choose at the same time? For
example, we are at the park and DD wants to go across the park to the
trees, but DS wants to stay at the slide. Taking either side causes a
problem, so how does one decide who gets their way.

-John Rizzo





--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 11, 2007, at 5:06 PM, John Rizzo wrote:
>
> > However, how many hits, pushes, scratches, screams must
> > everyone else endure during the regulation process? Is it even fair
> > to make the decision for DS to subject him to this for the good of DD?
>
> He shouldn't be hit at all. He should feel safe in his own home.
>
> The situation is characterized as either she gets free access to
> sugar and hits her brother or her sugar is restricted and he doesn't
> get hit. Those aren't the only two options. *Whatever the cause*, if
> she's in a mood to hit, she shouldn't be left alone with him. She
> should be off doing something more interesting.
>
> > These things do not help if she has unfettered access to sugary foods.
>
> If you feel it's the sugar and you don't have older kids, why are
> there sugary foods in your house? It's cruel to bring it in and then
> say "No, you can't have it," or "You can have it only when I say it's
> okay."
>
> If she's reaching for sugar a lot, it could be she's gearing up for a
> growth spurt and it's her body's way of packing in the calories it
> needs. If sugar is combined with whole grains and fat it's going to
> slow how quickly it's absorbed and how quickly the blood sugar goes
> up. Rather than restricting her, think in terms of expanding her diet
> to *help* her: whole grain muffins, peanut butter and oatmeal cookies
> made with whole grain flour and so on.
>
> Is it plausible that a 3.5 yo body wouldn't yet be able to
> emotionally handle the rapid body chemistry changes that come from
> foods that are converted so quickly by the body? It's plausible,
> certainly. I'm skeptical but you're convinced. The problem, as far as
> the conversation goes, is that from your point of absolute certainty
> that sugar is the cause you're asking people who aren't certain for
> permission to restrict your daughter's diet. (Which is why you're
> getting debate on whether sugar is really a problem or not.)
>
> To get useful answers you can either
>
> 1) convince people here that sugar really is a problem -- though I
> would advise against that since it could get messy (and boring for
> people who just want unschooling discussion), but you could look in
> the archives for information on how unschoolers help children with
> food allergies like peanuts and wheat gluten, or
>
> 2) ask for advice about how to help her with emotions that change
> rapidly (people have dealt with kids whose emotions run high so
> there's lots of wisdom along those lines.)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "John Rizzo" <jmcrizzo@...>
wrote:
>
> > So here is a more on topic unschooling question, how do people
handle
> conflicts when DD and DS want completely different things and both
> cannot be given their freedom to choose at the same time? For
> example, we are at the park and DD wants to go across the park to
the
> trees, but DS wants to stay at the slide. Taking either side
causes a
> problem, so how does one decide who gets their way.
>
> -John Rizzo
>
>


Hi, John

How I do it is to look for what I call the 'Third Way'.

One person wants to go one way, the other person wants to go a
different way at the same time. So I make an assumption that there's
a way they both want to go that nobody's thought of yet.

How I find the 'Third Way'. Stephen Covey, in The 7 Habits of
Effective People, calls it starting with the end in mind. What do you
really want? I'm assuming what you really want is for both of your
children to be happy and satisfied in a certain set of circumstances.
You don't know *how* to get what you want. But you know what it is
for your children to be happy and satisfied and you know what the
specific circumstances are. So start with the 'what' and backtrack to
the 'how'.

This is a form of lateral thinking (as in Edward de Bono). Some
people call it creative visualization or just visualization.

It's actually a natural process, but its real power is in using it
deliberately in a self-disciplined way to produce specific positive
outcomes.

If you want to know more, please email me off list, because it's not
an unschooling topic. :)

Bob

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 12, 2007, at 1:28 PM, John Rizzo wrote:

> So here is a more on topic unschooling question, how do people handle
> conflicts when DD and DS want completely different things and both
> cannot be given their freedom to choose at the same time? For
> example, we are at the park and DD wants to go across the park to the
> trees, but DS wants to stay at the slide. Taking either side causes a
> problem, so how does one decide who gets their way.

Try not to think in all or nothing terms - you're thinking one gets
their way so the other doesn't. But, instead, try to find ways that
both can be relatively happy. Maybe DD will be willing to stay at the
slide for 10 more minutes if daddy offers to push her on the swings.
Maybe ds will be willing to go across the park if daddy pulls out
some bread to feed the ducks.

What you might want to consider is modeling a different approach - be
"solution-oriented" rather than seeing conflicts as having to choose
who gets their way.

-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I must not be communicating very well, because I thought I made it
clear that I thought the restriction was probably bad-=-

Once you put an idea out for discussion, you don't own it anymore.
People will discuss the idea as it appeared. Take from that what you
can use and leave the rest.

-=-It also might be relevant to note that she is in OT
for sensory integration issues.-=-

I don't even know what OT is. Don't use jargon here, please. Let's
talk about children as whole people capable of making decisions and
not label them up with more things that justify parental control.

-=-Nobody knows my family, but lets assume we
are on our way to giving as much freedom as possible and this is one
of our last stumbling blocks. -=-

We only know what you chose to post, in the words you chose. No
one's keeping anyone from being more careful about what and how they
post. Please try not to be defensive.

Here's something Joyce wrote to describe the ideal process very well:
-------------------


The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")

Joyce
--------------------------------------

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John Rizzo

I apologize for being defensive. Thanks for an interesting discussion
everyone.

Just FYI, OT is occupational therapy. It is pretty common to help
children with sensory issues regulate their input and control their
emotions. It is not a matter of label and control, merely another way
to help her learn how to manage her senses and emotions. She chooses
to go or not (with no coercion), and it is only play therapy.

For whatever reason DD has problems with impulse control that we are
all working on. Finding alternative solutions to disputes between her
and DS are often hard to find. We always try to find a solution that
works for everyone; this is much easier on weekends and when I am home
from work.

We are a family that practices respect for everyone in the family and
gives as much freedom as possible. The food issue and balancing
freedoms between two children seem to be our biggest issues to still
resolve.

-John Rizzo

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I must not be communicating very well, because I thought I made it
> clear that I thought the restriction was probably bad-=-
>
> Once you put an idea out for discussion, you don't own it anymore.
> People will discuss the idea as it appeared. Take from that what you
> can use and leave the rest.
>
> -=-It also might be relevant to note that she is in OT
> for sensory integration issues.-=-
>
> I don't even know what OT is. Don't use jargon here, please. Let's
> talk about children as whole people capable of making decisions and
> not label them up with more things that justify parental control.
>
> -=-Nobody knows my family, but lets assume we
> are on our way to giving as much freedom as possible and this is one
> of our last stumbling blocks. -=-
>
> We only know what you chose to post, in the words you chose. No
> one's keeping anyone from being more careful about what and how they
> post. Please try not to be defensive.
>
> Here's something Joyce wrote to describe the ideal process very well:
> -------------------
>
>
> The list is about ideas, not about people.
> Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
> tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
> batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
> person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
> cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
> and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
>
> Joyce
> --------------------------------------
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>