Zak Lancaster

I've enjoyed reading this thread about tv advertising and its effects.
The basic question seems to be whether we (and our kids) are critical
media observers or not. If we're not, then our kids probably won't be
and may fall vulnerable to big business marketing tactics.

But, aside from the possibility that many people believe they are more
resistant to big business marketing tactics than they really are (and
there is some interesting evidence on this), there seems to be a total
absence of class analysis in this thread. I think we need to more
sensitively take into account that the vast majority of the u.s.
population (those who are working class to poor working class) are more
vulnerable to big business marketing campaigns than the privileged few
(let's say 20% or so), not because they lack the capacities for
critical analysis but because they lack the luxury of time and energy
to exercise these capacities. Come home after working a 12 hour labor-
intensive day (or two labor-intensive jobs) and see how open you are to
critiquing the content of what you're watching on television. I've done
this, and the effect of tv when I'm exhausted, tired, and stressed is
to lull me into an uncritical stupor. If I'm in an uncritical stupor,
how can I engage my children into open dialogue and critical
questioning about big-business marketing tactics?

If interested, Michael Dawson in his book The Consumer Trap has a lot
to say about the "class warfare" inherent in corporate marketing, as,
of course, do Chomsky/Herman in Manufacturing Consent.

-Zak

Fetteroll

On May 7, 2007, at 12:02 AM, Zak Lancaster wrote:

> The basic question seems to be whether we (and our kids) are critical
> media observers or not. If we're not, then our kids probably won't be
> and may fall vulnerable to big business marketing tactics.

"Are" suggests it just happens. More profoundly we're talking about
kids who become critical thinkers because parents are present *with*
their children: paying attention to what they say and what they do,
talking about life with them.

> But, aside from the possibility that many people believe they are more
> resistant to big business marketing tactics than they really are (and
> there is some interesting evidence on this)

Unschoolers?

Not because we're superior and are immune to every negative
factor ;-) (though I think respecting kids cuts the odds *way* *way*
down ), but because it's very useful to realize that studies are done
on huge chunks of the population that is *also* subjected to school
and conventional parenting and, for a large segment, families with
two working parents or at least parents that aren't fully involved in
their children's lives the way unschoolers are. Those factors do have
an effect on people that can't be subtracted out. The results are
assumed to apply to "people" but they really apply to people who have
been forced to spend 12 years being told that what they want isn't as
important as what the experts around them say they should want.

Why wouldn't that have a profound effect on who they are and the
choices they make?

> there seems to be a total
> absence of class analysis in this thread.

Because we're talking about unschooling and the effects of limiting
our children's world not the effect of TV on (conventional) people.

And it's also useful to realize that studies don't show the effects
that happen to a *person*. They show trends over a mass of people.
The trends say nothing useful about how an individual will react.

It's way more useful to look at our kids as unique individuals and
see what *they* need. (Which is so easy it's hard for people with
massive number of scripts in their heads about what kids should do
and should be like.)

And that's really the purpose unschooling lists serve. While it's
easy to list the principles of unschooling, helping people figure out
how that works for their circumstances is a huge chunk of the
information that passes through the list. (Though ultimately it's
about helping people get rid of the other influences -- like control
and comparing kids and looking towards school and fear of letting
kids experience life before they're full of the "facts" of what life
is really like -- that are interfering with unschooling.)

> Come home after working a 12 hour labor-
> intensive day (or two labor-intensive jobs) and see how open you
> are to
> critiquing the content of what you're watching on television.

And how likely is it they'll be unschooling their kids? If they don't
have time to attend to their kids then the kids would be better off
in school.

> If I'm in an uncritical stupor,
> how can I engage my children into open dialogue and critical
> questioning about big-business marketing tactics?

To unschool people need to find a way not to be in an "uncritical
stupor" or unschooling won't work. Moms with 3 kids under 6 can find
themselves in a state of exhausted stupor for quite some time but it
*does* pass and there are lots of moms here who have been through
that and can share what helped them during those years.

And "open dialogue and critical questioning" isn't that hard to do --
as long as someone isn't in a stupor. No one needs to turn it into a
big production -- like a lesson! It's just casual talk: "Boy we
should get some of that detergent! It sure makes people happy!"
*Trust* that kids will see the ridiculousness of that without us
having to explain why it's untrue. We don't need to tell them what
they need to look for. We just need to be aware and interested in
life -- and *not* in a stupor.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Zak Lancaster"
<zaklancaster@...> wrote:
>
> I've enjoyed reading this thread about tv advertising and its
effects.
> The basic question seems to be whether we (and our kids) are
critical
> media observers or not. If we're not, then our kids probably won't
be
> and may fall vulnerable to big business marketing tactics.
>
> But, aside from the possibility that many people believe they are
more
> resistant to big business marketing tactics than they really are
(and
> there is some interesting evidence on this),


LOL

I'd say the evidence is right. Being knowledgeable and aware is one
thing, and we all should be, but the moment you think you're too
smart to be fooled you're wide open to being fooled.

Zak Lancaster

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:

We just need to be aware and interested in
> life -- and *not* in a stupor.
>

Perhaps I was being a bit too indirect in my previous post about lack
of class perspective on this listserv. To be clear, my interests are
not only in unschooling myself and my own children -- an immediate goal
that is supported and inspired by this listserv -- but also to develop
a vision (not a "goal") for working toward an unschooled society. And
developing such a vision, a vision of a country full of critical,
creative, self-reliant problem- solvers, a nation full of participatory
citizens, requires a broad-based class analysis.

What percentage of the U.S. population is in a position to unschool
their children if they wanted to? What percentage of the population
cannot unschool their children because they have to work all day (and a
good part of the night) outside the home to pay the bills and put food
on the table? How can we organize to alleviate this situation? How can
those of us who are in a position to do so network and organize to
develop supportive communities for unschooling children of parents who
have no choice but to work outside the home?

Yes, we should not be zombies at night. But we have the luxury to say
this. How can we use our privileged positions to better educational
opportunities in our communities and ultimately society at large?

Please forgive me: I am new to this listserv. But I am wondering if
these and related questions are of interest to other people in this
community. Thanks for all your thoughtful posts! I really do like this
site a lot.

-Zak

Sandra Dodd

-=-there seems to be a total
absence of class analysis in this thread. -=-

That's okay.

All topics need to come back toward how those who choose to come to
this list can unschool their children more clearly and peacefully.

-=-Come home after working a 12 hour labor-
intensive day (or two labor-intensive jobs) and see how open you are to
critiquing the content of what you're watching on television.-=-

Someone who has to work two jobs is probably not unschooling, and so
that's not an unschooling situation.

-=-If I'm in an uncritical stupor,
how can I engage my children into open dialogue and critical
questioning about big-business marketing tactics?-=-

Not everyone has a sailboat. How much of a sailboat discussion list
should be dedicated to worry and shame about people who don't own
sailboats?

Because I unschooled (and others, but for a moment this is me,
talking just about me)---because I unschooled and because I shared
that out on lists such as this one (there've been others, and message
boards and newsgroups over the years), and because I've written
articles for local newsletters and then branched out, and spoke at a
local conference and then was invited elsewhere, then others have
been braver and more confident about unschooling.

Because I did that because I wanted to and I could, then others found
they wanted to and could. Or they could and found they could do it
better. Or the could and decided they wanted to.

If a sailboat had never been invented until the political (and
geographical!? I'm over 5,000 feet above sealevel, 1000 miles from
flat water, not counting Elephant Butte Lake and Abiquiu Lake)
situation allowed for every family to have a sailboat, it just
wouldn't be a question. Sailboats wouldn't exist.

Should I not unschool because not everyone wants to? Because not
everyone can?
Should I not let my kids have seconds at dinner because not everyone
will let theirs? Because not everyone has enough?
Should I not let my kids watch TV because not everyone is analytical?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Are you saying that people are fooled into buying things that don't
live up to the advertising hype? Or manipulated into the wanting of
things, in the first place? Fooled how?

I don't find myself or my family to be wide open to being fooled and
I really do think we're too smart to be fooled. We're skeptics, but
not cynics. There are great things out there that, yes, are
advertised - like my pink cell phone which I got because it is pretty
and I enjoy that aspect of it. Was I tricked by advertising into
thinking it is pretty? Sheesh - what a miserably cynical view of life
that is.

Kids' expectations are sometimes too high for something they've seen
advertised. But it doesn't take more than a couple of experiences for
them to be more realistic about what they're likely to get, compared
to what they see in an ad.

Marketing lets us know what is out there and so people, of course,
buy more of things that are "marketed." That's just awareness, not
manipulating or trickery.

If you're talking bigger picture, the idea that we're all fooled into
thinking that we need more "stuff" in order to be happy, I don't buy
<beg> that either. We buy stuff that DOES add to our enjoyment of
life, but we don't think the stuff is what will make us happy,
overall. It is a basic human characteristic to want more stuff,
Madison Avenue didn't put that natural desire into human beings.

-pam


On May 7, 2007, at 4:37 AM, Bob Collier wrote:

> I'd say the evidence is right. Being knowledgeable and aware is one
> thing, and we all should be, but the moment you think you're too
> smart to be fooled you're wide open to being fooled.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 7, 2007, at 8:19 AM, Zak Lancaster wrote:

> Yes, we should not be zombies at night. But we have the luxury to say
> this. How can we use our privileged positions to better educational
> opportunities in our communities and ultimately society at large?

First, your idea of "privileged" is possibly a bit off. Many
unschoolers manage on very low incomes.

The best thing we can do is raise a new kind of free child to become
a new kind of free adult - free of the effects of 13 years of
oppression.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Perhaps I was being a bit too indirect in my previous post about lack
of class perspective on this listserv.-=-

As to direct or indirect, the purpose of this list is to talk about
unschooling. Tell us about your own unschooling life first and
foremost, and if other stories and topics fit into those reports, great.

-=-To be clear, my interests are
not only in unschooling myself and my own children -- an immediate goal
that is supported and inspired by this listserv -- but also to develop
a vision (not a "goal") for working toward an unschooled society. And
developing such a vision, a vision of a country full of critical,
creative, self-reliant problem- solvers, a nation full of participatory
citizens, requires a broad-based class analysis. -=-

I live in a cul-de-sac. I can't even inspire the other three
families with children to unschool, and I don't have time, and it
would piss them off. The grandchildren of one of the women are
homeschooled. I've seen them a couple of times. The boys wear
overalls and the girls wear knee-length dresses with long sleeves
(little house on the prairie kind of stuff). They're not
unschooled. They're some kind of fundamentalist Christian 19th-
century-worshipping structured homeschoolers.

If you spend your time, thought and energy on emptying the ocean with
a thimble, you will have no time and energy to spend with your own
children. If you spend your time and energy on your children, you
might find a way to understand a LOT more about the ocean, and
thimbles, and the movement of water, and what would have happened had
you emptied that ocean anyway...

If we live our lives as well as we can, that will improve the world.
If we spend out lives vainly trying to improve the world, we won't be
living our lives as well as we can.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Zak Lancaster

> Should I not unschool because not everyone wants to? Because not
> everyone can? Should I not let my kids have seconds at dinner
> because not everyone will let theirs? Because not everyone has >
enough? Should I not let my kids watch TV because not everyone is
> analytical?


These questions strike me as a rather rehearsed reaction to a left-
oriented critique of unschooling (homeschooling in general), a
critique which, as I understand it, is less intended to tell
individual people what they "should" and "should not" do than to
offer a vision of what else civic-minded individuals can do to work
toward bettering educational opportunities for the majority of young
people. I'm unschooling my own kids, so I don't mean to trigger
defensiveness from other unschoolers. And obviously, inspiring
people wwho have the finanical wherewithal to unschool their
children is an extremely valuable goal. I'm simply suggesting that
another goal is to understand how a larger percentage of the
population -- not just relatively privileged communities of people --
can be provided with inspired educational opportunities.

I've met many working-class people in the U.S. who also are critical
of mainstream schooling but have no other choice than to keep their
kids there-- due to financial hardships, increasing ones I might
add. Many of us in more privilege positions may be interested in
improving schools for these kids or developing unschooling networks
for them.

Thanks,
Zak

Zak Lancaster

> The best thing we can do is raise a new kind of free child to become
> a new kind of free adult - free of the effects of 13 years of
> oppression.
>

I agree, certainly! I was just taking a more social-democratic
perspective, not only an individualistic one.
-Z

Sandra Dodd

-=These questions strike me as a rather rehearsed reaction to a left-
oriented critique of unschooling-=-

Zak...
I've been unschooling since my nearly-21-year-old son was five years
old.
I've been answering other people's unschooling questions and
complaints all that time, and online to strangers (and newspaper
reporters and radio interviewers) since he was eight.

By "rather rehearsed" did you mean "had to be repeated again because
the question doesn't change, nor does the answer"? Or did you
plainly mean to be insulting?

-=-And obviously, inspiring
people wwho have the finanical wherewithal to unschool their
children is an extremely valuable goal. -=-

It's not always financial wherewithal. There are unschooling
families here who sold a house and got a smaller one, and I know a
dad who managed to work from home (he probably wasn't the only one)
so he could unschool.

-=-I'm simply suggesting that
another goal is -=-

ZAK!!!
The list is full of former teachers (and some current professors and
other professionals that touch on education. Do you think you're
telling us something we didn't think of? We all went to school, we
all made a decision to take our kids out of school. Do you really,
REALLY think we've never been part of, or made, or responded to the
arguments about class, privilege and school reform!?

-=-I've met many working-class people in the U.S. who also are critical
of mainstream schooling but have no other choice than to keep their
kids there-=-

You've *MET* them?
Is the class discussion part of your own guilt then? Were you never
yourself actually working class? I wanted to go to a private school
in town, but my dad couldn't afford it. I wanted more books, but my
dad couldn't afford them. I wanted braces, but my dad couldn't
afford them. My kids have had braces (two of them; one opted out and
we let him) and books and unschooling, not because I coudln't think
of anything else to do with my "privilege," but because it was my
priority to give my children a better life than I had.

-=-Many of us in more privilege positions may be interested in
improving schools for these kids or developing unschooling networks
for them. -=-

"Unschooling networks" aren't going to be the kind of unschooling
we're talking about on this list, I don't think.
I hope your wife is there to unschool your children wile you and
your other plural privileged folk are improving schools.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-
> The best thing we can do is raise a new kind of free child to become
> a new kind of free adult - free of the effects of 13 years of
> oppression.
>

-=-I agree, certainly! I was just taking a more social-democratic
perspective, not only an individualistic one. -=-


Unschooling does have to do with how individual families live.

There are political lists galore online for the discussion of social-
democratic perspectives but very few to discuss unschooling and
natural learning in a pure and applied form.

Zak, your next post should probably be to tell us about your own
unschooling life.

Sandra
listowner.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

I think we need to more
> sensitively take into account that the vast majority of the u.s.
> population (those who are working class to poor working class) are
>more vulnerable to big business marketing campaigns than the
>privileged few(let's say 20% or so), not because they lack the
>capacities for critical analysis but because they lack the luxury of
>time and energy to exercise these capacities.

My experience has been very different. As someone who has lived a
large part of my adult life at or below the poverty level, with kids,
that I am much more critical of advertising than I am when I have
money. When you don't have money, the money you do have is a
precious commodity that you hold close and tight.

>If I'm in an uncritical stupor,
> how can I engage my children into open dialogue and critical
> questioning about big-business marketing tactics?


I just don't believe this to be true. I have been in situations
where I work a lot and hard. I find that my critical thinking
doesn't go out the door, just because I'm exhausted. I find more
than likely, I just have less time for tv watching in general because
my free time is taken up with kids, meal prep, dish washing, clothes
washing, then bed time stuff. No time for tv watching when I'm busy
busy busy. I find that I read more when I'm super busy and tired
like that. I'll read in bed to fall asleep faster.

Perhaps I'm not the typical person, but that has been my experience.

Fetteroll

On May 7, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Zak Lancaster wrote:

> is less intended to tell
> individual people what they "should" and "should not" do than to
> offer a vision of what else civic-minded individuals can do to work
> toward bettering educational opportunities for the majority of young
> people.

If there were a list to learn to play the guitar (not sure how that
would work, but go with it ;-), and someone joined to suggest that
those privileged enough to have the leisure to learn should also
spend time to help others who don't have access to music, it would be
a guilt inducing irritant.

If you want to *ask* people to join you on a separate list to help
with your vision of bringing unschooling to the world, hey, it's
possible Sandra might let that through. I wish you luck. (And hope
your wife is the one unschooling the kids while you're off saving the
world.) (Do note that John Holt also devoted his life to it, wrote
several books and had a magazine to spread the word about unschooling
-- *and* didn't have children who needed him. And yet how far did he
get for his efforts? Changing the world is a *huge* task and takes
talent, time and devotion. Guilt is not a substitute for those.)

But to suggest that those who have the privilege to unschool have
some obligation to those who can't (because of finances or ignorance)
is emotional manipulation.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

> What percentage of the U.S. population is in a position to unschool
> their children if they wanted to? What percentage of the population
> cannot unschool their children because they have to work all day (and
a
> good part of the night) outside the home to pay the bills and put
food
> on the table?

The answer is any and all who want to. It's a choice. Living on one
income in a tiny house that we rent, not own, is a choice that I gladly
choose over working outside of the home to earn that money to buy a
bigger house with a better yard in a nicer neighborhood.

I love being with my kids so much, that I would give up just about
every material possession and eat beans and rice, if that's what it
took to be home with them and unschool!

The real question should be, "how many people actually want to
homeschool, let alone unschool their kids?" Most people don't put that
in their bag of choices.

huntmom1996

***If you spend your time, thought and energy on emptying the ocean
with a thimble, you will have no time and energy to spend with your own
children. If you spend your time and energy on your children, you
might find a way to understand a LOT more about the ocean, and
thimbles, and the movement of water, and what would have happened had
you emptied that ocean anyway...

If we live our lives as well as we can, that will improve the world.***

Thank you.

Peace~Jessica

huntmom1996

***Many of us in more privilege positions may be interested in
> improving schools for these kids or developing unschooling networks
> for them. ****

You might be interested in reading _Smarting us up: the un dumbing of
America_ by Ned Vare and Luz Shosie.

The title page has this to say:
"Advice, inspiration, and courage from two of the pioneers in
unschooling -- the hugely successful alternative to the state-
run "education" system.

It has some real advice from people who have tried about how to
unschool and influence the current educational system.

Peace~Jessica

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Zak Lancaster"
<zaklancaster@...> wrote:
>> Many of us in more privilege positions may be interested in
> improving schools for these kids or developing unschooling
networks
> for them.

Them, huh?
I'm in the process of helping develop a network of unschoolers in my
area - and some of us are low-income (waving). I also host a small
board for unschooling single parents and other "nontraditional"
families - and many of the posters are low income. Unschooling with
limited resources is a pretty familiar topic on various boards -
unschoolers *want* to form networks, so we do, whenever possible.

If you'd like to help some low-income unschoolers network, you might
consider donating to the Live and Learn scholarship fund:

http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/scholarships.html


> I've met many working-class people in the U.S. who also are
critical
> of mainstream schooling but have no other choice than to keep
their
> kids there-- due to financial hardships, increasing ones I might
> add.

There are many many people of all economic levels who are critical
of mainstream schooling but don't realize that homeschooling is an
option - either legally or financially or that they have the
*ability* to homeschool their kids, much less unschool. And yet at
the same time there are unschoolers on welfare, unschoolers with no
fixed address due to hardship, unschoolers who are battling abusive
ex-spouses for custody and the right to unschool. Finances and
hardship alone don't account for people keeping kids in schools.
There are a lot of myths about the "necessity" of education, and
there are a lot of myths about homeschooling that contribute to the
lack of awareness of this option.

If you want to help break down the myths and stereotypes that exist
around home/unschooling, tell more people you home/unschool. Really.
Its also a good way to network, btw. Last night I met another
homeschooling mom at a book club and we ended up exchanging email
addresses and making tentative plans to get our kids together.
That's the third or fourth time I've met another homeschooler irl by
this kind of "direct action".

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

halfshadow1

I have some dislike with the term *class* I know some poor people with
alot of class, a plumber can enjoy fine art,poor people can have good
taste just not have the means to buy the stuff. What people do isn't
who they are. I have a problem with the assumption that you have to
have money in order to have the high class, good style and an eye for
fine things in life.I know this isn't what the discussion is about but
i had to mention it,maybe it should be upper money bracket..middle
money bracket and lower money bracket?--- In
[email protected], "jenstarc4" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> > What percentage of the U.S. population is in a position to unschool
> > their children if they wanted to? What percentage of the population
> > cannot unschool their children because they have to work all day (and
> a
> > good part of the night) outside the home to pay the bills and put
> food
> > on the table?
>
> The answer is any and all who want to. It's a choice. Living on one
> income in a tiny house that we rent, not own, is a choice that I gladly
> choose over working outside of the home to earn that money to buy a
> bigger house with a better yard in a nicer neighborhood.
>
> I love being with my kids so much, that I would give up just about
> every material possession and eat beans and rice, if that's what it
> took to be home with them and unschool!
>
> The real question should be, "how many people actually want to
> homeschool, let alone unschool their kids?" Most people don't put that
> in their bag of choices.
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Zak Lancaster"
<zaklancaster@...> wrote:
>> I think we need to more
> sensitively take into account that the vast majority of the u.s.
> population (those who are working class to poor working class) are
more
> vulnerable to big business marketing campaigns than the privileged
few
> (let's say 20% or so), not because they lack the capacities for
> critical analysis but because they lack the luxury of time and
energy
> to exercise these capacities.

Are you saying the "capacity for critical analysis" is somehow
different from the negotiating, problem solving, advance-planning,
and generally thinking out of the box that unschooling families
engage in regularly just by dint of stepping away from rules and
striving to live more peacefully?

Life isn't divided into subjects, but you seem to be thinking
about "dealing with advertising" as something separate from the rest
of living.

Its tough to be a creative, thoughtful, engaged parent when I'm
tired. Its alot easier to make poor judgements and have knee-jerk
reactions. But part of being and unschooler means I'm working on
that - learning new skills, new ways of thinking, different ways of
managing my time and energy, and getting help when I need it, so
that I *can* be the thoughtful, engaged parent I want to be.

My kids see me learning those skills and benefit from that process.
They get to experience a more generally thoughful family environment
than...well, more thoughtful than what *I* grew up with, anyway.

*One* way they get to experience that has to do with advertising.
For example, I don't respond to "that looks really cool" with "well,
you're not getting it" or "you don't really want that". I start with
something like: "it does look cool, doesn't it" and go from there.
Maybe we'll end up getting whatever it is, or something similar but
less costly, and maybe we won't, but I don't start the conversation
with a knee-jerk "no".

Learning how to have those kinds of conversations with kids and how
to overcome those knee-jerk "nos" is an important part of what
happens on this board and other unschooling boards. We can tell our
stories and get feedback.

> If I'm in an uncritical stupor,
> how can I engage my children into open dialogue and critical
> questioning about big-business marketing tactics?

How old are your kids and how long have y'all been unschooling? Are
you at home with the kids? If you're not right there with them every
day, that may be why you are seeing "dealing with advertising" as
something separate from the daily details of living with other
people.

If you are so tired as to be "in an uncritical stupor" you're
unlikely to have open dialog or critical questioning about
toothbrushing, the mess in the living room, or who's turn it is to
sit in the front seat of the car, let alone advertising. That's
going to impact your relationship with your kids. I'd suggest
finding ways to not end up in an uncritical stupor very often -
perhaps you need to find a job closer to home, or with more flexible
hours. Perhaps you need to be sure to eat more protein - some nuts
in the car on the way home, for example. Hard to say without some
more details.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have some dislike with the term *class*-=-

And it's not going to translate to our many readers in the U.K., NZ
and Australia anyway.

-=-What percentage of the U.S. population is...-=-

Inappropriate discussion for an international list.

And school reform is inappropriate discussion for an unschooling list.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On 5/7/07, Zak Lancaster <zaklancaster@...> wrote:
>
> I've met many working-class people in the U.S. who also are critical
> of mainstream schooling but have no other choice than to keep their
> kids there-- due to financial hardships, increasing ones I might
> add. Many of us in more privilege positions may be interested in
> improving schools for these kids or developing unschooling networks
> for them.
>


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I imagine lots of folks think in *no other choice* mode, though not often
'round here... the difference between unschoolers and those with *no other
choice* is perspective. There are always other choices, there are
alwaysother ways. The place to have the discussion about what's
possible is right
here it's what we do. We're not placing ourselves in boxes called income
brackets, we're in the wide open space of choices.

The very best networking available is at unschooling conferences/get
togethers. Conferences can be traveled to on next to nothing (in some cases
it's pb&js and room sharing), registration fees can be waived by
volunteering. Conference directories address the option of hosting
unschoolers; get in your car and hang out with another family (or three!) on
an inspirational road trip. I do it often! Hayden and I just returned from
three weeks away from home, surrounded by like-minded folks! We're still
glowing :) I'm in good practice, having had consistent support and recent
inspiration.

My privilege is my wisdom, the scales being removed from my eyes, if you
will. I can see how to make it work, at exactly the moment I choose to
commit my energy behind YES.

Living an amazing life on less money than other folks' mortgages,
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

Recently, I was at a website advertising a 'positive thinking' e-book
written by somebody I'd never heard of (not hard these days, there
are so many wannabes on the internet).

The sales letter was particularly interesting. It was a very long
page. Research has shown that as a website visitor scrolls down a
long page on their computer screen the likely effect is that their
brain waves will slow down and the person reading the page will go
from normal alertness into a light trance. Without noticing. The same
as we can go into a light trance when passively watching a TV
programme. If we've been surfing the web, the chances are we're
already in a light trance when we arrive at the website. Internet
marketers know this.

When our brain waves are slowed down and we're in a trance
(a 'buying trance', the marketing gurus call it), we're susceptible
to hypnotic suggestion. And this sales letter in question was not, in
fact, a sales letter - as in, here's the product, here's how it will
benefit you and why I think you should buy it. The sales page was a
disguised hypnosis script.

The purpose of the opening part of the sales letter was to make me
feel depressed. I don't have the letter here to refer to, but it was
essentially a guided imagery session. Exactly like a hypnotherapist
might use with a client, only this had a negative intent. "I wonder
if you've ever noticed how tired you feel at the end of the day."
This is like saying "I wonder if you've ever thought of a white cat."
Chances are, you have now. "Perhaps there is something in your life
that's not quite right." And that "something" would be what? Whatever
you think of. Absolutely anything that you perceive as "not quite
right" in your personal experience.

That's the way the letter went on; and then it gets to the part where
you've hopefully recalled into your awareness (without realising it)
some of the undoubtedly millions of little things that have 'gone
wrong' in your life, and you're thinking, without really knowing
why, "Well, maybe my life isn't so great at the moment." The next
part is to ramp up your negative thoughts to Chicken Little
proportions by relating them to the bigger picture. "There's so much
depression in the world today. Latest research shows that teen
suicides are up by 400% over the past ten years ..." and so on.

If you're Zig Ziglar, or somebody like him, all of this so far will
have bounced off you. But you're not in the target market. If you're
in the target market, you should be feeling a bit low right now.
That's the intention.

Then comes the 'solution' to your 'problem'. This guy's e-book. Only
it's not offering you relief from how you felt before marketing let
you know the book was out there; it's offering you relief from how
the marketing itself made you feel.

Marketing gurus talk about these 'black hat' techniques behind closed
doors - NLP, covert hypnosis and so on - at $5,000 a ticket seminars.

It's hard to really know how effective they are, because the gurus
puff them up to sell the tickets to their seminars in the first
place. NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) is regularly touted as a
skill that will give you the power to hypnotise anyone into doing
anything without them realising what's going on, as if all you have
to do is the equivalent of dangling a watch in somebody's face and
they're immediately at your bidding. Real hypnotists will tell you it
doesn't work like that. But it does work. And everybody can be
hypnotised. Even people who are certain they can't be.

Bob




--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> Are you saying that people are fooled into buying things that
don't
> live up to the advertising hype? Or manipulated into the wanting
of
> things, in the first place? Fooled how?
>
> I don't find myself or my family to be wide open to being fooled
and
> I really do think we're too smart to be fooled. We're skeptics,
but
> not cynics. There are great things out there that, yes, are
> advertised - like my pink cell phone which I got because it is
pretty
> and I enjoy that aspect of it. Was I tricked by advertising into
> thinking it is pretty? Sheesh - what a miserably cynical view of
life
> that is.
>
> Kids' expectations are sometimes too high for something they've
seen
> advertised. But it doesn't take more than a couple of experiences
for
> them to be more realistic about what they're likely to get,
compared
> to what they see in an ad.
>
> Marketing lets us know what is out there and so people, of course,
> buy more of things that are "marketed." That's just awareness, not
> manipulating or trickery.
>
> If you're talking bigger picture, the idea that we're all fooled
into
> thinking that we need more "stuff" in order to be happy, I don't
buy
> <beg> that either. We buy stuff that DOES add to our enjoyment of
> life, but we don't think the stuff is what will make us happy,
> overall. It is a basic human characteristic to want more stuff,
> Madison Avenue didn't put that natural desire into human beings.
>
> -pam
>
>
> On May 7, 2007, at 4:37 AM, Bob Collier wrote:
>
> > I'd say the evidence is right. Being knowledgeable and aware is
one
> > thing, and we all should be, but the moment you think you're too
> > smart to be fooled you're wide open to being fooled.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I have some dislike with the term *class*-=-
>
> And it's not going to translate to our many readers in the U.K.,
NZ
> and Australia anyway.
>
>

I know exactly what 'class' is. I grew up in London in the final days
of the British Empire, when everybody knew their place and was
expected to stay there.

Maybe something *like* a 'class system' by some other name still
operates in the world, but I'm amazed that, almost thirty years after
a grocer's daughter became Britain's Prime Minister, there are still
people around who think 'class' has something to do with what's
possible and what isn't. Perhaps it's only in the minds of those who
think it should be so.

Bob

Zak Lancaster

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-What percentage of the U.S. population is...-=-
>
> Inappropriate discussion for an international list.

This is untrue. I have lived in several countries outside the U.S. (am
now), and I have found that non-Americans are actually more interested
in understanding the social fabric of the United States than Americans
are. Non-Americans also tend to be less afraid of discussing the issue
of class.

> And school reform is inappropriate discussion for an unschooling list.
>

I can only assume from your choice to not engage in critical self-
examination of your positions on unschooling (as well as your choice to
not post my most recent message) that you are incapable of doing so.
What good is unschooling if it doesn't allow you to remain patient and
tolerant and polite toward people who hold contrary views to your own?
You think that unschoolers are incapable of being also interested in
school reform? Does this not strike you as a narrow-minded position? I
actually teach in a graduate school of education in which faculty are
interested both in school reform and homeschooling in general. Be sure
that are you not being too hasty to squeeze out views from this website
just because they don't serve your own agenda. That would be doing a
disservice to members of this listserv, don't you think?

Sandra Dodd

-=-
> Inappropriate discussion for an international list.

This is untrue.-=-

Zak, it's my list. My singular personal over-five-year-old list. I
get complaints from readers when the topic isn't unschooling, or when
the topic is too local or regional.

-=-> And school reform is inappropriate discussion for an unschooling
list.
>

-=-I can only assume from your choice to not engage in critical self-
examination...-=-

This is obnoxious and will not help anyone unschool or understand
natural learning.

-=You think that unschoolers are incapable of being also interested in
school reform?-=-

Not at all, but there are school reform discussion lists they can go
to. This is not a school reform discussion list, nor a recipe list
nor a dog-grooming discussion list.

-=-Be sure
that are you not being too hasty to squeeze out views from this website
just because they don't serve your own agenda. That would be doing a
disservice to members of this listserv, don't you think?-=-

"Be sure" or what?
It would have been a disservice to this list for me to have let your
eight paragraph tirade about class through when I've already said
(and others have asked) that you should tell us about your children
and your unschooling.

-=-
I can only assume from your choice to not engage in critical self-
examination of your positions on unschooling (as well as your choice to
not post my most recent message)...-=-

It was midnight my time when you sent it. I was asleep. I've gotten
up, made Holly breakfast and am about to drive her across town to
babysit. After that I'm taking her to get her driver's license. Big
day here.

I'm a mom, Zak, not a grad school professor.
I'm unschooling, not out spouting politics.

Sometimes your posts are going to need to wait (like midnight to 8:15
a.m.; not at all unreasonable).
And the next one I let through needs to be about you, your children,
unschooling.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

>>Research has shown that as a website visitor scrolls down a
>>long page on their computer screen the likely effect is that their
>>brain waves will slow down and the person reading the page will go
>>from normal alertness into a light trance.<<

Hey! That's what happened when I was reading your post <g>...

>>The same
>>as we can go into a light trance when passively watching a TV
>>programme.<<

For me, I am VERY aware of what happens to me when I am watching TV (whether
it be passive watching or active watching). The reason I know what happens
to me is because I care that much about my time and my time with my family.
I conscientiously checked in with myself every few minutes when watching TV
with my kids to make sure I was with *them*, and not just pacifying myself.
I did this because I made a choice to unschool, and a lifelong choice to put
my relationships in my family above all else. I made this decision when I
was pregnant with my first child. At that time, I did not have two sticks to
rub together and would have been considered living "in poverty". That went
up and down over the years, but my commitment to being aware and conscious
with my kids never did.

Does that mean that I never get fully immerged in a show and shut the world
out a bit? No, I do that sometimes, but only with consciousness, a decision
made depending on the circumstances.

>>Internet
>>marketers know this.<<

*I* know this. *My kids* know this. We figured it out with freedom and
awareness. We haven't needed anyone to tell us. It's something that is
easily figured out from conscious living.

I overheard my 17 yo ds saying to a friend, "I don't have email or myspace.
I noticed that I just sit there and zone out and it just feels like a waste
of time". 15 yo dd goes on the internet maybe 2 or 3 times a week these
days, after many hours each day for a while. 18 yo ds gets on a few times a
week. 13 yo ds spends most of his internet time finding cheats for video
games and is really into You Tube right now. They've figured out this stuff
from their own experience.

>>we're susceptible
>>to hypnotic suggestion. And this sales letter in question was not, in
>>fact, a sales letter - as in, here's the product, here's how it will
>>benefit you and why I think you should buy it. The sales page was a
>>disguised hypnosis script.<<

Were you snowed by this ploy? I can't remember a time when I would have been
so naive as to have been influenced one iota by this...

>>If you're Zig Ziglar, or somebody like him, all of this so far will
>>have bounced off you.<<

Not Zig Ziglar, and wouldn't fall prey to this. This is the kind of thing
that gets my whole family laughing..."Hey Mom, check this out..." with
laughs.

>>It's hard to really know how effective they are, because the gurus
>>puff them up to sell the tickets to their seminars in the first
>>place.<<

In a full happy life, little to no effect is my guess.

>>Real hypnotists will tell you it
>>doesn't work like that. But it does work. And everybody can be
>>hypnotized. Even people who are certain they can't be.<<

I guess if you choose to believe it.

Jacki, who is easily hypnotized and has been made to forget her name in
front of a crowd...but I think that had some choice involved as well...

Gold Standard

>>And the next one I let through needs to be about you, your children,
>>unschooling.<<

Thank you Sandra. I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for what you
do for this list to keep it going, and to keep it focused.

Jacki

Vida

Although I found this discussion interesting, I must say that I am on
this list to expand my own limitations so that I can get to that
place some of these unschoolers already are... and where I want to be
(I sense this is bad sentence structure, but believe me, translated
in Greek it sounds just fine). I need to learn more about how to be
OK with my daughter's decision to not brush her hair and not to
resort to manipulation and guilt to get her to do what *I* think she
should do. An interesting discussion on class won't get me there;
the TV thread has done wonders for me.

So I second the thanks to Sandra. Keeping a list on track is hard
work and sometimes not very much fun.


Vida in Greece
Mama to dd's Penelope and Athena, both 8.


www.aegean-villas.com
www.paintinggreece.com



On May 8, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Gold Standard wrote:

>
> >>And the next one I let through needs to be about you, your children,
> >>unschooling.<<
>
> Thank you Sandra. I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for
> what you
> do for this list to keep it going, and to keep it focused.
>
> Jacki
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On 5/8/07, Zak Lancaster <zaklancaster@...> wrote:
>
> -
> > And school reform is inappropriate discussion for an unschooling list.
> >
>
> I can only assume from your choice to not engage in critical self-
> examination of your positions on unschooling (as well as your choice to
> not post my most recent message) that you are incapable of doing so.
> What good is unschooling if it doesn't allow you to remain patient and
> tolerant and polite toward people who hold contrary views to your own?
>












I remain tolerant and polite *and* fully knowledgeable of my own
limitations. I do not surround myself with those who do not support my
journey and seek ways to impede my joy. Ick! I do what I can and I am who I
am, when folks cross my path, I'm who they get and if they care enough to
wonder if they too can capture a Life of Joy like ours, I'll share my
stories...


You think that unschoolers are incapable of being also interested in
> school reform?
>




A mother can serve only one family at a time!! I'd love to see school
reform, I recommend Holt to my SpEd teacher sister, she's there in the
trenches, being paid to do so. I unschool to be with my kids, I don't
unschool so my time can be focused on kids who's parents aren't choosing to
be with their kids. I hope to inspire parents to take responsibility for
their own children first, then others' when/if we can. Lists such as this
one do that, we speak from experience to others who have made the same
commitment to a principle-driven existence. Anyone can come here and hear
how we do it and see what it looks like... It really is about choice.

Does this not strike you as a narrow-minded position?
>



Suuuuure, it's sure narrow-minded to see the world as big and full of
choices instead of small and limited and full of no-other-choice
situations... ?????
Maybe it is narrow-minded of me to want to avoid these folks in my daily
live? I'm okay with that.

I
> actually teach in a graduate school of education in which faculty are
> interested both in school reform and homeschooling in general. Be sure
> that are you not being too hasty to squeeze out views from this website
> just because they don't serve your own agenda. That would be doing a
> disservice to members of this listserv, don't you think?
>

Nah, Sandra's doing a great service to the members of this listserv and
we're doing a great service to one another... thanks for your concern,
however.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]