emmy

welcome cathy. so awesome for your daughter exploring with confidence! your kids sound like very rational thinkers!

ok my question....WHY do people think christians aren't able to unschool? i came upon "unschooling" naturally.....meaning i did not "know" there was an actual term for it nor books written about it,or a whole movement shall i say. i still have not read any holt books,nor any other "unschooling" books either, actually just a few snips here and there on the net. i just realized shortly after i started homeschooling (7 years ago) what wasn't working for my son (only one at the time) and realized if i backed off he will naturally learn when he's ready. i then heard the term once as i was at a park day with other hs moms and someone asked me about what curriculum do we use. ehhh none. oh so your an unschooler eh? a wha? haha so i googled it and read a few bits LOL.

so yeah anyhow i'm curious! i am a christian and know a few others locally that are as well but i've never heard we "can't" nor too much criticism from other c's. so i curiously wonder why it would be said? enlighten me please.

emmy

www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Cathy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Validity (was Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV)


Hello Everyone

I am new to the list so I will introduce myself before butting in!!

I live in the UK, have 5 children ages 17,14,12,10 and 5. We were always
relaxed/delight-directed homeschoolers, but after reading John Holt's 'How
Children Learn' and 'How Children Fail' in 2000, (and lurking for a while on
Sandra's radical unschooling list where everyone was frolicking in the deep
end of the ocean, so it gave me confidence to think 'hey, let's test the
water here on the shallow end.), we took the plunge into unschooling and we
have never looked back. Of course, it is a constant and challenging learning
experience for me here in highly structured, hyper-testing orientated,
conservative England, and I mess up a lot of the time, but the kids are
great - so patient when they remind me that it is supposed to be their
choice.. Back off mom, we know what we need.

My oldest daughter is now in South Africa, where she is the youngest
aspirant dancer of her ballet company, and where people are constantly
amazed that a 17 year old is so sure of what she wants and is so
self-disciplined and self-directed, and is able to live so far from her
family without falling apart.

Second daughter is constantly mistaken for an 18 year old - again because
she is so confident and sure of herself, and of her goals and objectives.

They alone are sufficient evidence for me that unschooling really really
really works! I tell people everywhere, and I love seeing them spend time
with us and gradually become more relaxed and laid back in their home
education, even if they continue to follow their precious curriculum guides!

We are Christians, and at times we get a lot of criticism, as many
Christians feel that you cannot be both a Christian and an unschooler.
Interestingly, many unschoolers also think so. I was so convinced by John
Holt's writings that I determined to confront this perception - for myself
and for my family. And ultimately for other people who would like to know.
It is a wonderful journey.

With regard to the TV issue, you may be amused to hear that in our family it
was daughter 2 who most strongly voted for us not to have one in our home
right now. We keep horses, and we do all the care ourselves. She is the
owner of three of the horses, so she has soooo much work to do every day. We
live on a small farm and there are always tasks to accomplish. Her concern
was that, even if we only watched 1 hour of TV per day, it would add up to 7
hours/week - which is almost a full day's work!!!! What a dreadful waste of
time when we don't ever have enough time in the week to get everything done
that we want to do as it is. (she has visions of losing all her slave
labour!!!!) Everyone, except poor hubby - who wanted Sky TV so that he could
watch the sport - was won over by her argument and agreed! Thus a decision
has been made and the TV issue is to be reviewed again in a few months time.

One question that does come up regularly is to do with being part of and
relevant to our society - TV is a useful way of keeping some sort of track
of what is considered important at any given time.

A concern that I have is that I don't really want my 5 year old hearing
about all the gory bits of what paedophile/sex murderer/whoever got up to.
The BBC delights in hashing and rehashing these kinds of news items. Most
recently an English 3 year old was stolen from the bedroom in which she was
sleeping - taken out of her bed by some swine who climbed in through the
window. She hasn't been found yet. I feel sick myself at the thought, and I
don't think Kate needs to know about that right now. I would like her to
experience her world as a wonderful safe place, at least for these few short
sweet years of early childhood.

Dear son, who is very aware of what money can buy, said that a SKY TV
subscription would not be the best use of our funds. He felt that we were
better off continuing to have the money available to buy whatever we are
interested in at the time (currently it is beading, so we are always buying
beads).

We all enjoy watching TV a bit when we are on holiday, but on the whole we
are not majorly impressed by most of the programming - about 80% of it we
can skip. I think I can honestly say that none of us feels like we are
missing out.

What we did instead was buy a digital projector so that we could set up big
screen media in the lounge, and we have a subscription to hire DVD's and we
also buy quite a lot of DVD's. If anyone wants to watch something, it goes
on the list and we get it. We also like hooking the computer onto the
digital projector and messing around on the internet together. Finally, the
kids also go through intense stages where they love playing racing games on
the playstation (again on the big screen), although I really DO think that
this is one huge waste of time - and what is more, it makes me seasick to
watch!!!~!

Regards

Cathy

_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: 05 May 2007 02:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Validity (was Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV)

-=-Maybe "valid decision" was the wrong phrase to use! I simply meant
that if someone decides not to have a television in their home that's
fine with me-=-

It's fine with me if they're not insulting unschoolers with it.
It's fine with me if it's not in an unschooling context.

I feel sorry for the kids of parents who make unilateral decisions
regardless of their kids' preferences or desires. There are millions
of them, though, so I don't dwell on it. I hang out on unschooling
lists where it's rare to find parents like that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cathy

Hi Emmy



Over the years I have been told (in various ways and in various forms) that:

* Unschooling is humanism and John Holt was a humanist, and we should
therefore have nothing to do with him or his philosophies
* In order to unschool you have to compromise on Christian principles
* Unschoolers do not follow the Biblical mandate to train up their
children in God's ways
* Christians must teach their children to submit to authority by
making them obey
* It is wrong to allow people to do what they want - not good for
their character
* Unschooling does not equip people for life in the real world where
we have to submit to others
* Unschooling is selfish



I have also been told that:

* Christianity is too rigid and structured a religion to allow for
unschooling
* Unschooling means freedom, and thus Christians would not be able to
follow it as they are bound by their Scriptures
* A Christian's understanding of being accountable to God will prevent
them unschooling fully



Most people who had an issue - and these are the ones who used to get under
my skin and make me cross - just had an issue. Didn't want to talk about it;
didn't want to discuss it, just KNEW I was wrong. Now I ignore those kinds
of people and stick to fruitful conversations with people, no matter how
structured, who respect me enough to really want to know why I don't agree
with the above statements, or in what way I don't agree with them. I don't
care if they end up not agreeing with me in the end if at least they will
consider my ideas!!!



I have realized that so many people are just so scared. They are afraid of
messing up in some way. It takes so much courage to trust God, your kids,
yourself. Far easier on the surface to stick to accepted protocol.



I have discovered that all the above ideas are JUST NOT TRUE!!! And that
when Jesus Christ said that He came to give life, and life more abundantly,
He meant what He said. Paul said that it was for freedom that Christ had set
us free, and that we should not again allow ourselves to be bound by a yoke
of slavery. He was talking about slavish application of Judaic law. I see
parallels here too. Following rules and regulations makes people feel safe,
as they then can fool themselves that they are no longer responsible for
their actions. Ho hum..



In our family we unanimously agree to live as Christians, to copy the
example set for us by Jesus, and to follow the teachings of the Bible. This
is like a huge, overriding rainbow, under which we revel and delight in the
beauty of our lives. The picture that means the most to me is of a huge,
rich, delightful pasture, surrounded by a secure boundary fence. But the
pasture is HUGE and the boundary fence is not restrictive at all. In fact,
there is more freedom than we ever realized, and one goes deeper and deeper
into it. Using this picture has enabled me to speak about unschooling in
conservative Christian contexts and be heard.



I don't experience conflict between the two philosophies, and so if some
think that that means we compromise, I suppose that is just tough.



I have been so excited and so grateful for the discoveries I have made, and
John Holt is my hero! I have read all his books and my copies are underlined
and scribbled in and I still don't feel I understand enough to leave them on
the shelf. And yet it has become normal to live this way, so much so that it
feels strange to think back on the days when I was asking 'Can a Christian
be an unschooler?' and 'Can an unschooler be a Christian?'



A tough question that I sometimes ask (I tend to put myself through the mill
on stuff) is how would I react if one of my kids didn't want to be a
Christian anymore. I have to admit that that would be very tough for me, and
that it is important to me that my kids love Jesus and have their own
relationship with Him. I also know though that I would have to find the
grace somewhere to let them be - because I couldn't do otherwise and still
be true to myself. This does not mean that I would not have the right to
debate the subject furiously with them if they were willing to do so though.



I am about to leave for one of Kelly Marks 'Intelligent Horsemanship' demos,
and I am starting to run late, so I had better go. I hope I have expressed
my thoughts clearly and also that I have not stood on anyone's toes!!!!



Regards

Cathy



_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of emmy
Sent: 06 May 2007 06:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: cathy & a ?



welcome cathy. so awesome for your daughter exploring with confidence! your
kids sound like very rational thinkers!

ok my question....WHY do people think christians aren't able to unschool? i
came upon "unschooling" naturally.....meaning i did not "know" there was an
actual term for it nor books written about it,or a whole movement shall i
say. i still have not read any holt books,nor any other "unschooling" books
either, actually just a few snips here and there on the net. i just realized
shortly after i started homeschooling (7 years ago) what wasn't working for
my son (only one at the time) and realized if i backed off he will naturally
learn when he's ready. i then heard the term once as i was at a park day
with other hs moms and someone asked me about what curriculum do we use.
ehhh none. oh so your an unschooler eh? a wha? haha so i googled it and read
a few bits LOL.

so yeah anyhow i'm curious! i am a christian and know a few others locally
that are as well but i've never heard we "can't" nor too much criticism from
other c's. so i curiously wonder why it would be said? enlighten me please.

emmy

www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Cathy
To: AlwaysLearning@ <mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Validity (was Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV)

Hello Everyone

I am new to the list so I will introduce myself before butting in!!

I live in the UK, have 5 children ages 17,14,12,10 and 5. We were always
relaxed/delight-directed homeschoolers, but after reading John Holt's 'How
Children Learn' and 'How Children Fail' in 2000, (and lurking for a while on
Sandra's radical unschooling list where everyone was frolicking in the deep
end of the ocean, so it gave me confidence to think 'hey, let's test the
water here on the shallow end.), we took the plunge into unschooling and we
have never looked back. Of course, it is a constant and challenging learning
experience for me here in highly structured, hyper-testing orientated,
conservative England, and I mess up a lot of the time, but the kids are
great - so patient when they remind me that it is supposed to be their
choice.. Back off mom, we know what we need.

My oldest daughter is now in South Africa, where she is the youngest
aspirant dancer of her ballet company, and where people are constantly
amazed that a 17 year old is so sure of what she wants and is so
self-disciplined and self-directed, and is able to live so far from her
family without falling apart.

Second daughter is constantly mistaken for an 18 year old - again because
she is so confident and sure of herself, and of her goals and objectives.

They alone are sufficient evidence for me that unschooling really really
really works! I tell people everywhere, and I love seeing them spend time
with us and gradually become more relaxed and laid back in their home
education, even if they continue to follow their precious curriculum guides!

We are Christians, and at times we get a lot of criticism, as many
Christians feel that you cannot be both a Christian and an unschooler.
Interestingly, many unschoolers also think so. I was so convinced by John
Holt's writings that I determined to confront this perception - for myself
and for my family. And ultimately for other people who would like to know.
It is a wonderful journey.

With regard to the TV issue, you may be amused to hear that in our family it
was daughter 2 who most strongly voted for us not to have one in our home
right now. We keep horses, and we do all the care ourselves. She is the
owner of three of the horses, so she has soooo much work to do every day. We
live on a small farm and there are always tasks to accomplish. Her concern
was that, even if we only watched 1 hour of TV per day, it would add up to 7
hours/week - which is almost a full day's work!!!! What a dreadful waste of
time when we don't ever have enough time in the week to get everything done
that we want to do as it is. (she has visions of losing all her slave
labour!!!!) Everyone, except poor hubby - who wanted Sky TV so that he could
watch the sport - was won over by her argument and agreed! Thus a decision
has been made and the TV issue is to be reviewed again in a few months time.

One question that does come up regularly is to do with being part of and
relevant to our society - TV is a useful way of keeping some sort of track
of what is considered important at any given time.

A concern that I have is that I don't really want my 5 year old hearing
about all the gory bits of what paedophile/sex murderer/whoever got up to.
The BBC delights in hashing and rehashing these kinds of news items. Most
recently an English 3 year old was stolen from the bedroom in which she was
sleeping - taken out of her bed by some swine who climbed in through the
window. She hasn't been found yet. I feel sick myself at the thought, and I
don't think Kate needs to know about that right now. I would like her to
experience her world as a wonderful safe place, at least for these few short
sweet years of early childhood.

Dear son, who is very aware of what money can buy, said that a SKY TV
subscription would not be the best use of our funds. He felt that we were
better off continuing to have the money available to buy whatever we are
interested in at the time (currently it is beading, so we are always buying
beads).

We all enjoy watching TV a bit when we are on holiday, but on the whole we
are not majorly impressed by most of the programming - about 80% of it we
can skip. I think I can honestly say that none of us feels like we are
missing out.

What we did instead was buy a digital projector so that we could set up big
screen media in the lounge, and we have a subscription to hire DVD's and we
also buy quite a lot of DVD's. If anyone wants to watch something, it goes
on the list and we get it. We also like hooking the computer onto the
digital projector and messing around on the internet together. Finally, the
kids also go through intense stages where they love playing racing games on
the playstation (again on the big screen), although I really DO think that
this is one huge waste of time - and what is more, it makes me seasick to
watch!!!~!

Regards

Cathy

_____

From: AlwaysLearning@ <mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlwaysLearning@
<mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: 05 May 2007 02:15 AM
To: AlwaysLearning@ <mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Validity (was Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV)

-=-Maybe "valid decision" was the wrong phrase to use! I simply meant
that if someone decides not to have a television in their home that's
fine with me-=-

It's fine with me if they're not insulting unschoolers with it.
It's fine with me if it's not in an unschooling context.

I feel sorry for the kids of parents who make unilateral decisions
regardless of their kids' preferences or desires. There are millions
of them, though, so I don't dwell on it. I hang out on unschooling
lists where it's rare to find parents like that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jason & Stephanie

ok my question....WHY do people think christians aren't able to unschool? i came upon "unschooling" naturally.....
so yeah anyhow i'm curious! i am a christian and know a few others locally that are as well but i've never heard we "can't" nor too much criticism from other c's. so i curiously wonder why it would be said? enlighten me please.

emmy

We are Christians, and at times we get a lot of criticism, as many
Christians feel that you cannot be both a Christian and an unschooler.

<snipped from two posts>

****I just wanted to offer my yahoo group if anyone is interested.

www.groups.yahoo.com/group/RadChristianUnschoolers/

Stephanie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-* Christians must teach their children to submit to authority by
making them obey-=-

Many Christian parents justify their over-controlling limitations on
kids, and their punishments, by saying God commanded them to do that,
and they're just being good Christians, just saving their children's
souls.

Because they've told their children this (and blamed God), it's a
SERIOUS danger to peace in their lives if another Christian family is
having fun and freedom. Their kids might question the state of their
lives.

It's parallel to the threat to families that require lots of homework
and good grades and limit TV and video games and any sort of fun,
because school is IT, and they "have to" support the school, and
they're just saving their children's GPAs to ensure their financial
future. (Only that "god" is money/success.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-* Christians must teach their children to submit to authority by
> making them obey-=-
>
> Many Christian parents justify their over-controlling limitations
on
> kids, and their punishments, by saying God commanded them to do
that,
> and they're just being good Christians, just saving their
children's
> souls.
>
> Because they've told their children this (and blamed God), it's a
> SERIOUS danger to peace in their lives if another Christian family
is
> having fun and freedom. Their kids might question the state of
their
> lives.
>
> It's parallel to the threat to families that require lots of
homework
> and good grades and limit TV and video games and any sort of fun,
> because school is IT, and they "have to" support the school, and
> they're just saving their children's GPAs to ensure their
financial
> future. (Only that "god" is money/success.)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



That reminds me of an incident back in my son's first year of 'home
ed' when he still socialised regularly with some of the children he
went to school with.

When my son and I started out on our adventure, we had a three hour a
day lesson plan that he'd negotiated with his parents as a
requirement for being taken out of school. That lasted about a week
and a half; then my son said "I don't want to do this" and I said "I
don't want to do it either" and that was that. Ever since, our home
ed has been totally improvisational.

One day a few months later, one of my son's ex-schoolmates came over
to play after school. At one point, I overheard him telling my son
that he'd had a really good day at school because he'd finished his
work early and his teacher had allowed him to have an extra ten
minutes of free play time. "Crikey", I thought, "I'd better not
mention that Pat and I have spent most of the day playing videogames
and watching cartoons".

Yes, indeed. If more schoolchildren knew the truth about what home
education can be, their parents might have to re-examine their
beliefs about a lot of things.

Bob

Gold Standard

>>In our family we unanimously agree to live as Christians, to copy the
>>example set for us by Jesus, and to follow the teachings of the Bible.<<

>>A tough question that I sometimes ask (I tend to put myself through the
mill
>>on stuff) is how would I react if one of my kids didn't want to be a
>>Christian anymore.<<

I think it is very wise for you to be open to thinking about these things
now.

In our family of 6, it is darned difficult to find unanimous agreement for
many concepts outside of principles of treating each other well, treating
each other's things well (or asking before touching another's things), and
respectful behavior in general. Outside of that, our kids have branched out
into their own ideas about life, god, Jesus, Buddha, etc. I'm rather happy
with the lack of UNanimousness, lol.

When looking at religious unschooling, I wonder about the effect of daily
sharing of adult strong convictions and beliefs in a family. I find my own
sharing of my beliefs with my kids comes into play in our discussions only
occasionally. I spend much of my time listening to my kids' thoughts and
processes, supporting their explorations, working to understand their
ideas...I try not to give my own ideas too much, mostly when it is clear
that they are asking for it. Listening to their insights and supporting
their explorations has been key for us in freedom and unschooling.

I understand the idea that religion can feel like the core of one's life,
and that it could be quite difficult not to share the wonders of it with
one's children daily. But I do wonder the effect on their true freedom. I'm
not trying to be antagonistic, but this is sort of the crux of the religious
unschooling question in my mind.

For instance, if I may ask, I am curious how each one of your family members
came to unanimously agree to live as Christians. How old are your kids? When
they are younger, parents really do get to make decisions without much
question or disagreement. Maybe that is where your family is? Or maybe they
have been exposed to the many possibilities with openness, and they have
chosen Christianity for their lives?

The religious unschooling is a little like the strong convictions about
TV/computers/video games being harmful and damaging in unschooling in my
mind, and maybe I am offbase with that thinking. Having doctrine in my home
about anything, be it following commandments created thousands of years ago
or espousing the evils of video games would impinge on my kids true freedom.

I think it is very good in unschooling to question what I would do if one or
more of my kids chose a path that I strongly disagreed with. First question:
WHY do I disagree? That is my issue to resolve. My disagreement will surely
get in the way of our relationship. Short of choosing a path of murder or
mayhem, there shouldn't be all that much that I couldn't support in my
children's choices.

Anyway.

Those are the questions that come to me when I think of incorporating one
religion in an unschooling family.

Jacki





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachel

This is my response to the question about whether you can be a
Christian and also be an unschooler. If you would allow me to share my
experience & thoughts...

We are a Christian family of 6 who do not attend a church, but my DH
and I are Christians- in the sense that we do believe God created the
world and provided redemption through Jesus (I know that sounds
horribly religious, but basically we believe the bible to be God's
Word and His will).

Now we spent the better part of our marriage, now in it's 13th year,
attending church, serving there, talking about and teaching our
children about God and making our decisions based on what we thought
was correct according to the bible or traditional thought. We no
longer attend church and have ceased stressing the bible so urgently
in our home.

We do talk a lot about a responsibility to love one another and do
what is right- for the betterment of us as individuals and a family &
in order to help others achieve better. We speak a lot of social
injustices, politics, the FDA, the war, corruption, morality without
judgment and honesty. The interesting thing is that since we have
discontinued the "training" our children they really do not talk much
about biblical things as they used to. Prior to that I think the kids
would talk more about things related to church and the bible because
it was what we were stressing. Duh... kids will mimic and aim to
please those in which they fear an opinion! I really don't want the
kids to mimic me- i do want to be the best I can be, but I always tell
them I want them to be and do better.

When the discussion of things that may pertain to religion or the such
come up I allow them to voice their opinion without forcing mine. God
is a part of our lives as is everything. To many religious people that
might seem as if we have done our kids a disservice and that they
will not grow up Godly because of our so called neglectfulnesses to
the Word. We now see how we were not fully using our own brains on
many issues and thanks to our own enlightenment (in which I personally
thank God- cause I am a bit of a thickhead!) we are allowing our kids
to learn without outside pressure.

We have begun the unschooling process in ourselves. We have begun
questioning things and in so doing allowing our kids to think & learn
freely, even on this topic. My relationship with God is my
relationship and I now realize it to be rude and frankly unnecessary
to force that down anyone's throats. I see that verse about "training
up your children" quite differently. I feel what that truly means is
to support and allow your kids to go in the way they know (within
their hearts) and they will succeed- which is supportive of unschooling.

I am not worried or concerned about my children following God or
Christianity per say because I know it is a choice everyone must make
on their own. Without manipulation, perhaps they will truly experience
God's love for them and mankind. Our decision to step away from church
and indoctrination was also a decision to decide to find out for
ourselves what God really is to me. What I have found is that He is
not confined to our limited ideas of Him and He is wonderfully vast
and loving and kind. I will not use fear of any kind to cause my kids
to conform and I will fight everyone and everything that tries to do so.

So it is possible to be a Christian and unschool. Never anywhere have
I found support for coercion, manipulation (may I say slavery!) in the
Bible. Why would anyone willingly choose to be led and controlled? I
decided to stand up for myself and trust my own heart and my primary
motivation is to entrust my kids to do the same. So far it's working.

-Rachel

emmy

thank you all for sharing! i find that interesting, and yes now i can see where those who view God only as taking away freedom (ie the law and such) would not get it. i live in such freedom that i often "forget" others are bound by their (most often self inflicted )limits and fear. i agree with sandra that truly comes down to the way man(kind) sees to enforce "Gods way". (and whats even worse if we don't conform to that standard then we don't fit the "right way"!!)

MAN i know God as the first & ultimate unschooler! he gives us the freedom to explore His world, His creations,our relationship with him and nutures us right along in FREEDOM! INCLUDING the _choice_ to chose to believe in & follow Him or NOT. i think of this in relation to what bob said

"Yes, indeed. If more schoolchildren knew the truth about what home
education can be, their parents might have to re-examine their
beliefs about a lot of things."

the truth is if one is truly intimate with God then one will know his character and principles is NOT about limits or control. yes there are guidelines yet they are simply for protection to accompany us on our learning journey,which He longs to be a part of! JUST like that role we play as an (unschooling) parent! we nurture our relationship with our children and their journey of learning, because we love them, and because we love them we spend TIME with them and desire the fullest life for them by seeking their interests! it is our job as parents to protect them i mean _hello_ we don't want our kids to play in a busy highway because obviously its dangerous territory! anyhow He's ALL about freedom and i think its been the best kept secret! LOL He paid the price to SET us FREE, to encourage our dreams,to elevate and give the desires of OUR hearts. its NOT a one way street!! once your liberated by seeing what God's freedom brings,wow the whole world opens up! it really so simple yet sooo many complicate it. yes if indeed the truth be known.

i appreciate your honesty cathy about your fear. my sons are only 12 & 8. they truly made their own choice for their relationship with God each in their _own_ time. when they shared it with me, it was a beautiful moment knowing it was THEIR choice, and their relationship with God. they will have a different experience than i, because we are after all unique individuals. if they chose not to have a relationship with God later in their years that would be very hard yes, but i would have to respect their choice.

which reminds me we were recently discussing this very subject. i can't remember exactly what triggered the conversation but during it i made a comment to my son that not everybody worships/believes in jesus and we have to respect that. he (my youngest) who is so very sensative and intimate with God (by which he most often teaches & humbles ME! LOL) was very passionately upset and asked "WHY _wouldn't_ people believe in jesus, thats just stupid!! don't they know how awesome He is!"

i see many parents constantly make the mistake to "shove" their beliefs onto their kids, only to see them rebel and then wonder why? sometimes the child comes back to these beliefs but its usually after they've had the freedom to explore the "world" yet unfortunately it caused much hurt to their (parent/child) relationship in the process. i encourage parents if you give them that freedom in the first place, you will avoid the hurt and be respected more. it all comes down to their choice, & their free will. what will be, will be....truly what do we control??


emmy

www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com


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Sandra Dodd

-=-the truth is if one is truly intimate with God...-=-

Let's don't be going there, please. Each person's view of God is
going to be different.

http://sandradodd.com/theblindmenandtheelephant

-="WHY _wouldn't_ people believe in jesus, thats just stupid!! -=-

Let's don't be going there either.
Calling people "stupid" isn't cool.

Answering the question about why people would think Christians can't
unschool is okay, but going on too long about religion is off topic
of the list.

Sandra

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emmy

i very well understand everyone views god differently.
i was expressing it in relation to unschooling,sharing
what i learned and it was not intended to start a debate.

"calling people "stupid" isn't cool"

i didn't call anyone stupid.
understand this came from my 8 yr old son who most often thinks farts are cool.
and i used it in context to relate it to learning (the paragraph above was referring to respect)
as i said the very same thing
to him .

emmy

www.cafepress.com/emmytofa
www.emmytofa.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Christians Unschooling?


-=-the truth is if one is truly intimate with God...-=-

Let's don't be going there, please. Each person's view of God is
going to be different.

http://sandradodd.com/theblindmenandtheelephant

-="WHY _wouldn't_ people believe in jesus, thats just stupid!! -=-

Let's don't be going there either.
Calling people "stupid" isn't cool.

Answering the question about why people would think Christians can't
unschool is okay, but going on too long about religion is off topic
of the list.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melody Flurry

In case anyone wants to check it out, I thought I would post that there are discussion groups related to Christian unschooling where discussion of religious matters might be more appropriate. I used to be on a list called Radical Christian Unschoolers which you can find out about through the "yahoo groups" section. I'm sure there are a multitude of others that I just don't know about or you could start your own!

Melody :-)


Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-the truth is if one is truly intimate with God...-=-

Let's don't be going there, please. Each person's view of God is
going to be different.

http://sandradodd.com/theblindmenandtheelephant

-="WHY _wouldn't_ people believe in jesus, thats just stupid!! -=-

Let's don't be going there either.
Calling people "stupid" isn't cool.

Answering the question about why people would think Christians can't
unschool is okay, but going on too long about religion is off topic
of the list.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cathy

Hi Jacki



Thank you for your excellent questions. Lots to consider there.



One thought that comes immediately to mind is this one: which principle (or
maybe 'philosophy' is the better word) is going to take precedence? If
Unschooling is first, then I will 'compromise' on religious belief to be
true to it. Alternatively, if my religion is first, then I will 'compromise'
on Unschooling to be true to it. The reason I put the word 'compromise' in
inverted commas is that I think that there is a way of looking at two
different philosophies and yet finding commonality in them. For example, for
me, freedom and respect for the personhood of a person, are very important
values. I find expression of and support for freedom and respect in both
Unschooling and Christianity. Hence the idea that it is possible to live as
a Christian Unschooling family. Yeeha! Thrashing out the reality is another
matter.



If it comes down to brass tacks and I felt pushed into a stalemate where I
had to choose between the two, Christianity comes first. This is because
there is a sense of allegiance to Jesus as a living Lord, to Whom I have
freely given my life, so in that way my choices are now limited. In much the
same way as my choices were limited after my marriage to my husband in a way
that they weren't when I was single.



So yes, my children are growing up in an overtly Christian home. But no, I
don't think they are feeling coerced (actually I asked 2 of them and they
looked at me as if I was crazy). The funny thing is that my oldest daughter
said that she sometimes feels coerced by my strong feelings about education!
She doesn't feel like I give her freedom to choose a different path on that
one, and she says that in retrospect maybe she would have preferred to have
been schooled. Now that is a real curved ball!!!!



Many families as an ideal prefer to leave the options open for their
children on all things. But can any of us honestly say that we do not
influence our children in the context of our family culture? We have an
identity as a family after all. I don't think this is wrong. But where I do
think there is potential to go wrong is when we don't leave the option for a
particular member of the family to be different - on any issue, be it
something as important as religion or environmental responsibility or
something as seemingly unimportant as foods to eat, clothes to wear and
choice of music. And we must recognize the subtle ways as well as the overt
ways of getting people to do what we want, rather than respecting their
freedom to choose.



Christianity makes sense to me. So does Unschooling. The challenge lies in
how to implement the concepts. All around me are people, in many cases
implementing one or another of the concepts dear to me. But maybe I don't
agree with their implementation. Or maybe I try to implement something, but
in a very short while I can see that it does not work. It is back to the
drawing board. Honest, rueful, apologetic assessment of where it went wrong.
The principle however remains. I am challenged to return again to the
principle - study and consider and investigate ways that work.



Regards

Cathy

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