Emily Troper

Hi there trusted listmates, I need your help!

My dh is a very kind and smart man who, though he hasn't read much on
unschooling, has always been cool enough to follow my lead on
"educational" issues. We've tried all sorts of alternative/free
schools over the years (including Summerhill), but have always left
the choice up to the kids - if they didn't like the school, they
could just be home and unschool.
I have a 15 year old son (dh's stepson) who is very much into gaming,
and now our 7 year old son (Seth) has developed a deep interest in
gaming (he got his first system, a gameboy, for his 7th birthday) and
the boys have been playing together quite a bit on my older son's
game systems and TV. I'm actually glad to see the older boys bonding
more and sharing some interests (they even chose to share a separate
table at the pizza parlor the other night) and I definitely see Seth
(my 7 year old) engaged in a LOT of other things too (he loves
skateboarding, gymnastics and bouncing around on a pogo stick, and
he's taking guitar lessons and swimming and has a few playdates each
week with lively friends, as well as collecting pokemon cards and
playing lots with his younger siblings, and doing various activities
with me and dh - like chess, reading, board games, movies, etc.).
Most importantly, the person Seth is becoming is a great thing to
behold - he is compassionate and kind and silly and interesting. I
feel like things are going really well.

My dh, however is greatly disturbed by how much "screen time" (his
words) the children have, and feels strongly that I cannot or will
not see the "reality" of the effect of gaming on them. He cites many
studies that show it's addictive and harmful, and often compares it
to heroin during our discussions. I think that dh's disdain for
these interests of our children are more harmful than the games, and
I feel in my heart that when/if he can truly let go of his fear
around this issue, the "screen time" will likely be less
anyway...but, I need more than that. He wants to see/hear more
"evidence" than just an anecdote or two from teens saying that gaming
is great, or that gaming is educational - he's already on board with
things not having to be "educational", he'd rather have them playing
in the sandbox outside or sitting in a chair staring into space, than
doing a math computer game.

What ya got for me? :)

Thanks,

Emily

mostly joyously unschooling
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)






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Sandra Dodd

-=-My dh, however is greatly disturbed by how much "screen time" (his
words) the children have, and feels strongly that I cannot or will
not see the "reality" of the effect of gaming on them-=-

http://sandradodd.com/videogames

There are many studies and articles there, not by unschoolers.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 12, 2007, at 6:38 PM, Emily Troper wrote:

> feels strongly that I cannot or will
> not see the "reality" of the effect of gaming on them.

What reality does he see?

He cites studies but what does he seen with his own eyes?

I think one of the unfortunate parts of school is that we're told
what we're supposed to see (in science experiments, in poetry and
literature, in history) and are taught (consequently) not to trust
our own sight and our own judgement about what we see.

We learn that most situations are too complex to understand what's
really happening unless you're an expert so we set aside what's
happening in front of us to search for what we're told is significant
and why it's significant.

(It's also important to note that all studies are done on schooled
kids. Researches have no clue how much school warps the natural
behavior of kids so they just accept schooled kids as normal kids.
They aren't. Schooled kids make choices for different reasons than
unschooled kids do. So the conclusions they draw apply only to kids
who spend years doing what others think is important in a society
that fears giving them power in homes where more often than not their
parents both work.)

Without looking through the lens of studies that blow up little
snippets of behavior into doom and gloom, what does he really see?

One technique that scientists use when studying animals is to write
down what's going on -- interactions and actions -- every 15 minutes
or so. (He might want to write down what's going on other than
watching the screen ;-) If someone were to do the same type of study
with someone reading a book or playing chess and he were prejudiced
against either of those, it would look like even less was going
on! ;-) How often do they interact and help each other? (Teamwork.)
How often do they check strategy from books and on line? (Research.)
How often does a game spark other actions (pretend play, writing,
drawing.) (Processing information and making it their own.)

Unschoolers *especially* know that scientific studies on learning
have little relation to natural unwarped-by-school children.
Educators are convinced that kids need to start learning to read and
do math and sit quietly early or they're on a track for failure. We
know from our own experience that it isn't true. Without the
pressures of school, kids turn out fine even if they don't read until
12, don't do formal math until they need it (for the SAT's or a
college requirement). With attentive loving families, kids turn out
fine if they play violent video games.

Here's some stuff I've written about the same arguments against TV:

http://tinyurl.com/268c4k

Joyce

Emily Troper

Thank you so much Sandra and Joyce,

I have sent my dh links to both of your wonderful sites, several
times, and he still isn't convinced. He says that the arguments
there are about whether or not kids are learning anything, and he
doesn't disagree with the fact the games/TV can be interesting and
educational - his concern is that they are addictive and harmful as
well. If anyone here thinks of anything new I could convey to help
him understand this one, please write - or even just share some
personal stories about how your kids played/watched freely and DIDN'T
get "addicted", or about the transition period when limits are first
removed when it appears they are totally consumed, etc.???


Thanks again to you all, we'll get there eventually!

We're going to Life is Good AND Live and Learn this year, so
hopefully that will help some!


Emily

Kelli Traaseth

**If anyone here thinks of anything new I could convey to help
him understand this one, please write - or even just share some
personal stories about how your kids played/watched freely and DIDN'T
get "addicted", or about the transition period when limits are first
removed when it appears they are totally consumed, etc.???**

I think there are several stories of that at the link that Sandra sent. People reporting that exact thing.

I have 3 kids who play a lot of video games and/or do a lot of computer work, they aren't addicted. They eat when they're hungry, get up and run around when they feel like they need to, they choose to play with friends/family when there's an opportunity or when they want to do that. And we're OK with the fact that they might not want to do those things too. I think that's a big factor. You HAVE to be OK with their decisions. Their decisions might be different from what you would choose. Their balance in their life might be different from yours. I think that's really hard sometimes for parents to accept. Alec (ds14) might want to play a video game for hours on end. He gets up and does other things while playing it but he will spend a day or more doing the same game. He can focus so well on something its amazing.

Now as he's doing this its not like he's in his own world. He's still part of ours and we are part of his as well. We go and sit with him. We talk with him about what he's doing and what he had to do to get to certain parts of the game. He tells all about the research he's doing, the different aspects of the game that are interesting to him.

Now for me, I need to be more active than him. I can't do something like that for the amount of time he can. I like changing things up. Going from one thing to another. And I don't get as much excitement/energy from doing the things he does, but that's OK. We're 2 different people. He is so energized when he's working to beat a boss, or trying to figure out a puzzle, or figuring out a new strategy for a character. He isn't as physical as me and that's OK. Everyone's different.

I ended up pointing this out to my mother-in-law. She was having worries about him playing so much video games/computer games and such. Which to me was so funny that she would worry about that. She loves to read, sew and quilt. She rarely goes outside, doesn't really like sports, never has, even as a child and she will say she loves being home. She is so much the same way as her grandson but yet she still couldn't see the connection.

We are allowing our children to be who they are now, they don't have to wait until they are out of the house.

***he
doesn't disagree with the fact the games/TV can be interesting and
educational - his concern is that they are addictive and harmful as
well.***


I have read/heard about people being addictive to video games. Where they will miss out on really important events in their lives, due to video games but, and this is a huge BUT, <g> None of these people have been unschooled. ( I think Joyce addressed that in her reply.) The people that I have heard of have not been happy in their lives. Its been an escape for them.

The ones I've seen, have been doing it because there's nothing else in their lives that is exciting or there are in unfulfilling relationships, stuff like that. They've either been unhappy in their family life or just unhappy in general. The kids I meet who are playing video games aren't unhappy. They are choosing to play because isn't fun, its interesting and there's a lot to these games.

Online gaming has been hit hard with fear of addictiveness, I know. Our whole family played World of Warcraft for a while, it was an amazing time for us. This adventure world where we met each other and other friends. We don't play much anymore. Abbi (dd12) will still roleplay a bit with friends, but Alec has leveled up so much and pretty much done all the different aspects of the game that he's bored with it now.

Doing what everyone else says is "wrong" or "bad" is scary sometimes. People love to put the scary fearful thoughts out there, but do they see the joy in your child's face? Do they know of the lives that we can lead as unschoolers? Probably not. The possibilities are endless. Trusting our children, nourishing what they like to do, including them in your interests. Its all so good!

I've written quite a bit about gaming and computer use in our household at my blog. Feel free to check it out. The link is below. :)
















Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin




---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

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Kelli Traaseth

Just wanted to clarify something. Sorry I didn't see it before I hit send.

***They eat when they're hungry, get up and run around when they feel like they need to, they choose to play with friends/family when there's an opportunity or when they want to do that. And we're OK with the fact that they might not want to do those things too.***

They will eat when they are hungry. We will help them, by bringing them food sometimes, by joining them and we'll eat by them. Usually though, Alec will want to come to the kitchen or eat with us. When I said we're OK with the fact that they might not want to do those things, I meant they might choose to do something other than what I'm offering or if there's a friend who they haven't really had a whole lot of fun with recently, they'll probably choose something else. Sometimes playing with others isn't always the best option for them right then. :)




Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin




---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Emily Troper <emtroper@...>
wrote:
>> even just share some
> personal stories about how your kids played/watched freely and
DIDN'T
> get "addicted", or about the transition period when limits are
first
> removed when it appears they are totally consumed, etc.???

My 5yo has never had limits per se, although we didn't get our
satellite hook-up until the turn of the year. Before then we had
lots of movies. She goes through phases of watching a lot of tv or
playing a lot of computer games just like she goes through phases of
drawing alot, or reading alot, or digging in the mud alot. Right now
we have new kittens so she's spending a great deal of time with them.

My stepson had tv and computer limits at his mom's house. A couple
hours total a day. He moved in with us in Nov, and we got the
satellite a month later. He was amazed to learn that he could stay
up *all night long* and play computer games if he really wanted to,
and for awhile took us up on the offer, waking up around 4pm and
staying up until the rest of us were having breakfast. That's
probably a good example of what you mean by 'totally consumed'.

Once spring started, though (it comes early here in TN), he decided
entirely on his own to switch back to a more daytime schedule, even
though it meant he would have less opportunity to play on our single
computer. A couple weeks ago he started going to a Saturday night
coffee house with his dad - he's there now, in fact. He likes
people, and much as he loves chatting with people online, face to
face is better. He's gone to a couple parties and picked up some
yard work, too. He still spends a lot of time on the computer -
four, five hours a night - but he's not "addicted". He's wanting
less, not more.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Sunday Cote

>>If anyone here thinks of anything new I could convey to help
him understand this one, please write - or even just share some
personal stories about how your kids played/watched freely and DIDN'T
get "addicted", or about the transition period when limits are first
removed when it appears they are totally consumed, etc.???<<<

This has been a big transformation for me as we started unschooling. I
was pretty much the Waldorf anti-electronic mom when I first picked up a
Holt book. But now, three years into unschooling, I have two boys (5
and 8) who have free access to TV, computer and video games. I have to
say it took a lot of encouragement and coaching from my unschooling
friends and lists like this one to get me through the de-schooling phase
of almost non-stop TV and gaming. But then one day I discovered that
the boys weren't rushing to turn the TV on the minute they woke up and
that they were actually choosing other activities. This became more
apparent when their still-Waldorf friends came to visit and my boys
couldn't get them off the computer. One parent actually said that her
son could only play 15 minutes of video games before I had to restrict
him, otherwise "he just goes crazy!" Yikes. But what she doesn't
realize is that her son is VERY video game savvy and is getting it from
being at other friends or neighbors houses. This means that he's lying
to her and having to sneak around behind her back to get his "fix." He
has a secret life that he can't even talk to his mom about. I can't
imagine not sharing in the excitement my boys find in their games and TV
shows. Just yesterday, we were driving in the car and playing a game
where one of us would give clues about a certain TV or gaming character
and the others had to guess who it was. My husband and I
enthusiastically joined in and were pretty good at guessing the
character by hearing the description of clothing or what their signature
catch phrase was. My husband really makes the boys laugh by imitating
the voices of the characters. All four of us were laughing and having a
great time. What a sweet moment and a powerful way to keep us connected
as they get older.

We often sit and watch the shows with them or start our own file on a
video game. Right now, my husband, my 5 year old and I are all working
on our own Pikmin file. We don't belittle what they watch and we
celebrate their passions, including all things electronic. By honoring
what they find useful or funny, they will always feel safe to share the
important things in their lives. But more importantly, they will learn
to value their own opinions and to follow their own passions. How
wonderful is that!

So, I'd have to say that the best thing that got me through to a more
balanced perspective was being in the company of unschooling families,
especially the teens. Go to a conference and just observe these kids!
I am fortunate to know several unschooled teens IRL. (Waving to Jacki
and her fantastic four teens down the road from us right now.) Both my
husband and I have said, "If these teens are the result of unschooling
and respectful parenting, we're on-board!"

And there are two books that really helped me look at this issue from a
different perspective:

"Everything Bad is Good for You" by Steven Johnson

"Killing Monsters" by Gerard Jones

Your husband might find them insightful as well.

Sorry this is so long. I rarely post, so I guess I'm making up for it
all at once. <g>

Good luck!
Sunday