rachel

I have a 9 yr old dd and my question posed to the group is regarding
her. She is the 2nd of 4 children and quite different in many ways than
my other 3. In different I mean she has always been somewhat of an
introvert- very clingy as a baby, nursed for 2 solid years and refused
solid foods until she weaned, spoke very little until baby # 3 came
along (she was 2 1/2) and as of the present reads very little and
struggles to articulate herself. She is finally becoming much more
verbal with others- so much so it struck me the other day when at a
restaurant she very bluntly blurted out what her selection for her meal
was going to be ( I usually order for her). She really is truly a
beautiful child and very similar, it seems, to my husband. He claims he
was very much the same as her as a child. She is quite artistic and very
passionate about whatever she is working on. She frustrates easily
though when her siblings don't follow her rules for play and as of
recently she is very quick to correct and set straight what she sees as
wrong or bothersome behavior. She seems at times lonely yet I really
think she is just intensely thinking. My problem is that I tire easily
trying to listen as she attempts to tell me things and I find it
difficult at times to be sensitive when she overreacts to situations
that irritate her. She seems rather immature on some level yet very self
assured on others. I guess I just need some help understanding her. We
are so different and I'm not sure what she needs of me. I wonder if she
feels different than her siblings or other kids her age and if that is
causing her confusion & insecurity. She realizes reading is a useful
skill she would like to have, but does not work very hard to build her
ability up. I suppose it's just not important to her enough yet, but as
her 6 yr old sister is advancing and her 5 yr old brother showing much
interest I'm worried this will cause more frustration for her. Does
anyone have any suggestions for me in how I should relate to her or help
her in anyway? Do I continue to stay out of the way or do try to guide
her a little and how would I do that without insulting her intelligence?
She really doesn't want me to "teach" her anything and refuses to listen
to me whenever my inner teacher shows up!

Thanks, Rachel

Gold Standard

>>She really doesn't want me to "teach" her anything and refuses to listen
>>to me whenever my inner teacher shows up!<<

Rachel it sounds like you have a good understanding of your daughter.

My 18 yo son gave me many questions like yours, more than any of my other
three did. He was intensely quiet for long periods, and it took me quite a
while to feel comfortable with that. I thought it indicated that he was in
discomfort. But really, he was just fine with his reflection and
thinking...he wasn't looking for outside help or connection during these
times. I learned to not "leave him alone", but to let him be while at the
same time being watchful for a time that I could supportively say, "hi".
That often opened up discussion for us...it wasn't invasive or intruding in
his space, but a simple word that was more an invitation if he wanted to
connect. It was important to not try to get him out of his space, but to
figure out ways to join in his space...respectfully.

And his long periods of introversion were often followed by explosions of
activity...it's just the way his brain worked.

He talked at a later age too...lots of kids do. He still has great
difficulty expressing his thoughts and feelings, but he writes. He writes
movie scripts, short stories, poems, etc...writing is a very important part
of his life. When he was younger, he drew a whole bunch, mostly stick
figures, because his hands didn't work all that well with writing or
drawing, and to this day it is very difficult to read his writing. He types
really well. He can type about 50 words a minute and he this has been a
great communication tool for him.

It has always been important for me to be especially vigilant to listen to
his words, to try to interpret what he is really trying to say. I have been
a kind of interpreter for him in life...an interpreter of life to him and of
him to others in life. This has been needed less and less as he has gotten
older, but certainly was a necessity to get him to where he is today. And
that is completely okay. It is who he is and what he needed and that is
unschooling in action.

He too seems "immature" in ways, and yet very insightful in others. This is
perfectly perfect...our individual children are who they are, and
unschooling philosophy allows us to see without a second's thought that
there is nothing "wrong" with who they are...if they were in public school
where children are compared with each other, THEN there would be problems
with our "outside the box" kids. But they really aren't outside any box,
there is no box, the box is man-made and imaginary.

It is completely reasonable, in my oh so humble opinion, to trust that your
daughter does not need your teaching if she does not want your teaching.
Even though she looks different from your others, she still knows what she
needs more than you do. She may have more scattered skills than your other
children, and that is okay. You will need to continue to learn about and
understand your daughter, probably more consciously than your others, in
order to truly support her in the ways that she needs. You may need to be
more a guide to appropriate public behavior for her than you need to be for
your others, you may need to be ready to show her something new in a
moment's notice more so than your others who may give you time and patience
to gain more information. For instance, my guy once said to me "How do you
make purple" with great intensity and a desire to know right then. I jumped
to it more quickly than I would have for my others, because I knew that he
would lose the moment more quickly than my others would have. Those
connection times are fewer and farther between with ds than with my other
kids, who have relationships with me in relaxed ways all the time, and who
have the capacity to work and live more patiently, who seem to more believe
that all is well.

So I guess I mostly want to encourage you to continue to know your daughter,
to be okay with the fact that it is a different-looking path than with your
other children, and that with that comes lessons that you may not have
wanted to teach. For instance my 16 yo is driving, my 18 yo won't be able to
for a long time it appears. My 18 yo has watched his younger siblings
accomplish many things, including having healthy friendships, before he did.
These are tough life lessons to watch as a parent, at least they were for
me, and my guy has had pain that his sibs probably never will have...but at
the same he has great insight into things that his sibs don't have, he is
intensely creative and sees things that others typically don't. He has
opened my mind tremendously...

Keep listening, watching, loving and supporting...

Jacki

Sandra Dodd

-=-She realizes reading is a useful
skill she would like to have, but does not work very hard to build her
ability up. I suppose it's just not important to her enough yet, but as
her 6 yr old sister is advancing and her 5 yr old brother showing much
interest I'm worried this will cause more frustration for her.-=-

Reading doesn't come from working hard.

http://sandradodd.com/reading

Please read through some of those articles. The calmer you are, the
easier her life will be, so any bit of unnecessary worry on your part
will make things worse.

Others answered the other aspects.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rachel

Thank you so much, Jackie, for your insightful and kind response to my
post. I know my DD-9 is amazingly special and i am so blessed to live
with a person like her, as well a my DH. They both give me perspective
on life i would never have on my own and, as a dear friend just told me,
it balances me.

Sandra, I meant by working hard that she doesnt have the drive yet to
put much energy into it. She tends to back away when it becomes
difficult & I think that's OK. I don't want her to feel unnecessary
pressure. Reading came very naturally to DD-11 but back then in the
beginning we "worked" on it a little bit so I suppose the old ghosts
come back here and there and I wonder if I should have done more with
DD-9. My Mom, a Montessori teacher, told me once that she (DD-9) lacked
some basic skills (building blocks) and since then I've felt a bit more
responsible. I will read your article Sandra- thank you.

Rachel






--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-She realizes reading is a useful
> skill she would like to have, but does not work very hard to build her
> ability up. I suppose it's just not important to her enough yet, but
as
> her 6 yr old sister is advancing and her 5 yr old brother showing much
> interest I'm worried this will cause more frustration for her.-=-
>
> Reading doesn't come from working hard.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/reading
>
> Please read through some of those articles. The calmer you are, the
> easier her life will be, so any bit of unnecessary worry on your part
> will make things worse.
>
> Others answered the other aspects.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I will read your article Sandra- thank you.-=-

It's not an article. It's LOTS of people's writing and commentary.

-=-Sandra, I meant by working hard that she doesnt have the drive yet to
put much energy into it.-=-

I know what working hard is and I know what you meant.
Reading doesn't come from having drive or putting energy.



-=-She tends to back away when it becomes
difficult & I think that's OK. -=-

What's not okay is for there to be anything to back away from.
What's not okay is for there to be an "it" to become difficult.

-=-. I don't want her to feel unnecessary
pressure.-=-

If you think there is any necessary pressure, then you're facing away
from unschooling.

-=-I suppose the old ghosts
come back here and there and I wonder if I should have done more with
DD-9. -=-

The old ghosts are evident in everything you wrote, so I don't think
they've gone away.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists

Those might help.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rachel

Okay Sandra, thank you for your input. Does anyone else have anything
they can add to this discussion. I appreciate everyone's view point.

Rachel


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I will read your article Sandra- thank you.-=-
>
> It's not an article. It's LOTS of people's writing and commentary.
>
> -=-Sandra, I meant by working hard that she doesnt have the drive yet
to
> put much energy into it.-=-
>
> I know what working hard is and I know what you meant.
> Reading doesn't come from having drive or putting energy.
>
>
>
> -=-She tends to back away when it becomes
> difficult & I think that's OK. -=-
>
> What's not okay is for there to be anything to back away from.
> What's not okay is for there to be an "it" to become difficult.
>
> -=-. I don't want her to feel unnecessary
> pressure.-=-
>
> If you think there is any necessary pressure, then you're facing away
> from unschooling.
>
> -=-I suppose the old ghosts
> come back here and there and I wonder if I should have done more with
> DD-9. -=-
>
> The old ghosts are evident in everything you wrote, so I don't think
> they've gone away.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
> http://sandradodd.com/checklists
>
> Those might help.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Nancy Wooton

On Mar 18, 2007, at 7:19 PM, rachel wrote:

>
> I have a 9 yr old dd and my question posed to the group is regarding
> her. She is the 2nd of 4 children and quite different in many ways than
> my other 3. In different I mean she has always been somewhat of an
> introvert- very clingy as a baby, nursed for 2 solid years and refused
> solid foods until she weaned, spoke very little until baby # 3 came
> along (she was 2 1/2) and as of the present reads very little and
> struggles to articulate herself. She is finally becoming much more
> verbal with others- so much so it struck me the other day when at a
> restaurant she very bluntly blurted out what her selection for her meal
> was going to be ( I usually order for her). She really is truly a
> beautiful child and very similar, it seems, to my husband. He claims he
> was very much the same as her as a child. She is quite artistic and
> very
> passionate about whatever she is working on. She frustrates easily
> though when her siblings don't follow her rules for play and as of
> recently she is very quick to correct and set straight what she sees as
> wrong or bothersome behavior. She seems at times lonely yet I really
> think she is just intensely thinking. My problem is that I tire easily
> trying to listen as she attempts to tell me things and I find it
> difficult at times to be sensitive when she overreacts to situations
> that irritate her. She seems rather immature on some level yet very
> self
> assured on others. I guess I just need some help understanding her. We
> are so different and I'm not sure what she needs of me. I wonder if she
> feels different than her siblings or other kids her age and if that is
> causing her confusion & insecurity. She realizes reading is a useful
> skill she would like to have, but does not work very hard to build her
> ability up. I suppose it's just not important to her enough yet, but as
> her 6 yr old sister is advancing and her 5 yr old brother showing much
> interest I'm worried this will cause more frustration for her. Does
> anyone have any suggestions for me in how I should relate to her or
> help
> her in anyway? Do I continue to stay out of the way or do try to guide
> her a little and how would I do that without insulting her
> intelligence?
> She really doesn't want me to "teach" her anything and refuses to
> listen
> to me whenever my inner teacher shows up!
>

I'm using this post as a jumping-off point for a discussion I've wanted
to have with unschoolers for a long time:

How do we unschool kids with learning disabilities/differences, autism,
dyslexia, sensory integration problems, etc.? If it's the school which
often identifies these problems, and we never send our kids, how do we
know if they're just following their own timetable, or if they need
some kind of intervention? What happens if we miss a developmental
window? Are there truly such things?

I've worked on the edges of these issues for a few years now, in my
capacity as a volunteer with therapeutic horseback riding programs.
I've talked to lots of parents whose kids suffer in mainstream classes
or special ed., yet they often find the idea of homeschooling appalling
because they have enough trouble as it is. Unschooling is simply
beyond their capacity to consider, and frankly, I don't know if it
would be helpful for their kids.

FYI, I have no idea what, if anything, is "wrong" with the child
described above, and that's my point -- the parent who wrote doesn't,
either, and has chosen to ask this list. Can anyone here shed light on
the problem (other than suggesting we not view our unique children as
"problems" ;-) ? Would professional evaluation be helpful to the
child? Would that open the door to all kinds of problems, legal or
otherwise, for the family?

Nancy

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 18, 2007, at 7:19 PM, rachel wrote:

>
> I have a 9 yr old dd and my question posed to the group is regarding
> her. She is the 2nd of 4 children and quite different in many ways
> than
> my other 3. In different I mean she has always been somewhat of an
> introvert- very clingy as a baby, nursed for 2 solid years and refused
> solid foods until she weaned, spoke very little until baby # 3 came
> along (she was 2 1/2) and as of the present reads very little and
> struggles to articulate herself. She is finally becoming much more
> verbal with others- so much so it struck me the other day when at a
> restaurant she very bluntly blurted out what her selection for her
> meal
> was going to be ( I usually order for her).

What does nursing for two years have to do with anything? Two years
isn't long. It also isn't at all uncommon for younger kids not to
speak as early or as much as older siblings. My now-19 year old
didn't order for herself in restaurants until she was a young teen.
Very shy.

> She really is truly a
> beautiful child and very similar, it seems, to my husband. He
> claims he
> was very much the same as her as a child. She is quite artistic and
> very
> passionate about whatever she is working on. She frustrates easily
> though when her siblings don't follow her rules for play and as of
> recently she is very quick to correct and set straight what she
> sees as
> wrong or bothersome behavior.

She'll probably always have a strong sense of justice and she'll be
frustrated that not everybody shares it. Over time you will help her
to learn to decide when it is "worth it" to set others straight and
when to be silent. She'll learn this through trial and error, so
you'll also be there to comfort her when she finds out the hard way
that others don't often appreciate unsolicited opinions about their
behavior.

> She seems at times lonely yet I really
> think she is just intensely thinking.

My very-intense middle daughter IS lonely sometimes, yet other times
she doesn't want company because she's deeply involved in her own
stuff. She wants friends who are there when she wants them, but isn't
super good at maintaining friendships because she needs/wants so much
alone time, too.

> My problem is that I tire easily
> trying to listen as she attempts to tell me things

Tire easily? You don't get to do that - you're her mom. If you're
tiring "easily" then maybe you need to find a way to have more energy
for her. How tiring can it be to talk with your own child? What do
you mean "attempts to tell" you things? Meaning she's not articulate
enough for you to understand what she's trying to tell you? Then all
the conversations you have together are part of what you could
consider "speech therapy" and it is, if anything, even MORE important
that you listen patiently, reflect back to her what you do
understand, help her phrase things when you can, etc. If you're
letting on that you're impatient, then you could be creating a
problem of her feeling pressured and that's likely to make her less
articulate, not help her express herself more easily.

> and I find it
> difficult at times to be sensitive when she overreacts to situations
> that irritate her.

I truly understand. HOW many times I've thought (and occasionally and
regrettably said aloud to her) that my daughter is overreacting. I
remember we were sitting around a campfire with lots of other people
and playing a game and my daughter quietly "called out" an answer and
someone else heard and they called it out louder. They were heard and
got the "credit" for her answer. She was really upset about how it
wasn't fair. She was about 9 years old, by the way. I was embarrassed
and made things far worse by trying to shush her. She got more and
more upset and I had to take her away from the group and she sobbed
and sobbed. I was frustrated and told her she was acting like it was
the end of the world. She sobbed more and got angry with me, too.
Things escalated until I took her back to our tent and the evening
was over for us. I was mad that she'd wrecked MY night and she was
humiliated and angry. This kind of scenario repeated a number of
times over the years. Looking back, I know NOW that what I should
have done was take her very seriously - she was totally right and the
person should NOT have taken credit for her answer. It was cheating
and unfair and it mattered tremendously to her 9 year old self. She
didn't care about the rest of the world, ending or not <G>. I should
have commiserated and comforted and maybe even spoken up and said,
"Just for the record, that last answer was first given by Roxana."
SHE would have seen that as me standing up for what was right. Who
cares if other adults would have thought it was making a mountain out
of a molehill? Knowing what I know now, I realize made many mistakes
of this type - trivializing what was really super important to her.

> She seems rather immature on some level yet very self
> assured on others.

She is who she is - so what she needs is you to accept that. Learn
from my experience and don't expect her to "act" mature all the time
or to have mature considerations or understanding.

> I guess I just need some help understanding her. We
> are so different and I'm not sure what she needs of me.

Probably for you to listen to her more willingly and eagerly and
patiently (without showing that you're being patient). I know my
middle daughter needed me to "be there" for her when she was ready to
talk, even more than my other kids did. And it was easy for me to
unintentionally blow her off because if I didn't appear to be eager/
willing, she'd just drop it and I'd miss an opportunity to connect
with her.

> I wonder if she
> feels different than her siblings or other kids her age and if that is
> causing her confusion & insecurity.

Of course she feels different.

> She realizes reading is a useful
> skill she would like to have, but does not work very hard to build her
> ability up.

Does she think that she needs to do that in order to learn to read?
If I was you, I'd be sure to toss around ideas about multiple
intelligences - in words she can understand. What she needs is to be
aware that children develop different skills at different ages as
their brains and nervous systems develop differently. She has
developed some ability to think deeply about justice and morality and
ethics. Lots of kids haven't got that ability at her age. And her
artistic abilities are developing before her language abilities and
that's great - every person is unique and this is how she is. When it
is natural to do so, point out how so-and-so has natural physical
ability and so-and-so has natural singing ability and how someone
else has natural reading ability - all learning things, all
developing at their own speeds in their own directions. What an
adventure it IS to grow and find out what her own special strengths
will be. Don't let her think learning to read requires that SHE work
at it - it really just requires that her brain be developed in
certain areas. Commiserate if she says it is hard to wait, but also
point out that she can listen to books as much as she wants, no need
to wait to be able to read them for herself, right? If she wants to
be more well-read, get her audible books on an mp3 player to listen
to on her own.

> I suppose it's just not important to her enough yet,

Yikes. Have you told her that she'll be able to learn when it is
important enough to her? So now she feels like it is her own laziness
that is keeping her from reading? You owe her an apology, in that
case, because that is SO not true.

> but as
> her 6 yr old sister is advancing and her 5 yr old brother showing much
> interest I'm worried this will cause more frustration for her.

It could - but get her lots of books to listen to so that she can
have the chance to have "read" books before they did and she can
recommend books to them, etc.

> Does
> anyone have any suggestions for me in how I should relate to her or
> help
> her in anyway? Do I continue to stay out of the way

Stay out of her way?

> or do try to guide
> her a little and how would I do that without insulting her
> intelligence?

What would offering ideas and suggestions and support be insulting to
her intelligence? I don't understand.

> She really doesn't want me to "teach" her anything and refuses to
> listen
> to me whenever my inner teacher shows up!

Relate her learning to read with her learning to walk. How did you
help? Was it fun? Was she embarrassed that she wasn't yet walking?

I'd bet that you make her feel ashamed of herself for not learning
better. Maybe ponder that for a while and it'll help you figure out
what to do instead.

-pam

Relay for Life
http://www.acsevents.org/relay/ca/longbeach/pamsoroosh



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=I'd be sure to toss around ideas about multiple
intelligences --=-

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris

Hello :)

Well this topic inspires me to philisophically rambling questions...

"how do we know if they're just following their own timetable, or if
they need some kind of intervention?"

Am I alone in the idea that our (what's the word here? society?
culture? country? I'm not sure) requires, demands even, a status
quo? Creating a "which one of these things isn't like the other?"
situation that makes devleopmental differences "special" in that bad
way?

I don't know except the older my child gets the more I see him grow
and develop in institutionally measurable and human immesurable ways
and the more I am truly humbled. Having never been institutionally
anything'd by any sort of expert it makes me wonder, maybe their
whole school of "mainstream" thougth a myth?

Admitedly though, I wouldn't know because he is just a "normal" kid.
Isn't he? I certainly think so but then again, I never thought to
consult an expert when he challenged me to grow as a mother and
person.

Again, just rambling thoughts, wondering what other RUN families
think.

"(other than suggesting we not view our unique children
as "problems" ;-)"

Oops, read that too late! Please forgive me, I've already typed this
and hoped for an answer :)

Blessings,
Chris

Carmen Roa

This stuff has been going on long enough for my taste.
Who's having a bad day?
I don't have time in my schedule to read such drivel.
this does nothing to add to my homes' peace.
It's upsetting.
Remove me form the lists.
Carmen Roa


You can explore the universe looking for somebody more deserving of your love than you are ,
and you'll not find that person anywhere.
Carmen







---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

You can unsub yourself. It's right at the bottom of the email or go to
yahoo to unsub in the same way you subbed.



Angela Shaw

<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carmen Roa

Thanks, I knew how to unsubscribe.
I intended to make a point.
This board is turning into an autocracy and no one need put up with that in exchange for information.
Good Luck to everyone,
Carmen


You can explore the universe looking for somebody more deserving of your love than you are ,
and you'll not find that person anywhere.
Carmen







---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 21, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Carmen Roa wrote:

> Thanks, I knew how to unsubscribe.
> I intended to make a point.
> This board is turning into an autocracy and no one need put up
> with that in exchange for information.
> Good Luck to everyone,
> Carmen

An "autocracy" is a system of government that has one ruler. This is
Sandra's list. She owns it. If the point is that Sandra "rules" the
list, then yeah, well, that's what being "list owner" means. Starting
a list is easy - you can start your own with a few mouse clicks.
Sandra will even put your list on her website to advertise it for
you, if you want.

-pam


Relay for Life
http://www.acsevents.org/relay/ca/longbeach/pamsoroosh



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Thanks, I knew how to unsubscribe.
I intended to make a point.-=-

Public admission of dishonesty and wasting the time of every reader
on the list!?

Banishment. I won't advertise a list for such a person.

-=This board is turning into an autocracy and no one need put up with
that in exchange for information.-=-

There is more information than most people could ever finish reading
here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
and on Joyce's page, TONS:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
and
there are links on my main page to this many other people's writings:

Joyce Fetteroll
Pam Sorooshian
Deb Lewis
Robyn Coburn
Danielle Conger
Mary Gold
Schuyler Waynforth
Dan Vilter
Lyle Perry
Pam Laricchia
Kathy Ward
Linda Wyatt
Mae Kowalke (once Mae Shell)

and no one has to "put up with" anything to get this much FREE
information, which is free because people have voluntarily written
and voluntarily made it available, freely.

If those don't come out as links, they're 2/3 down the page at http://
sandradodd.com/unschooling

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]