Wildflower Car

This is a response to Sandra's post, but I believe it benefits the entire
group and is not intended to be a side conversation leaving the rest of you
out of the loop. It is similar to having a public conversation at a round
table discussion. All can benefit from it.

Thank you for those who have responded to me personally regarding this.


>Someone wrote, seemingly in defense of a family in which cynicism and
>unhappiness were common, "I think that as long as children are having
>basic needs met, food, shelter, and love, they are better off being
>unschooled."

Why would you imply that I was in defense of a family where cynicism and
unhappiness are common?

Wouldn't you want a family that unschools to offer food, shelter, and love?
Love encompasses doing your best and unconditional acceptance. And is it
possible for you to see this as a simple statement, not all encompassing of
mine or anyone else's view of unschooling.


>There is no benefit to anyone here for a single person on this list
>to encourage a mom to settle for doing a wan and half-assed job when
>she can improve her own life and those of her children and
>grandchildren by taking steps rto perk up and be better.

I NEVER said someone should settle for a half-assed job. And to tell someone
to "perk up" and "be better"? Are we naive people who don't understand that
life is not perky and better all the time? Or to tell someone that might
actually make it happen? And to imply that doing these things make you a
more adequate unschooler is naive as best. Perking up and being better is
unrealistic sometimes. Struggle and conflict shape us and teach us to
appreciate the good times. Although we can all agree that not sweating the
small stuff is sound advice.

You come across as a person of principal, I assume from what I've read that
you are. As well as a person with good advice and discussion in regards to
unschooling. Your insistence on twisting this issue into more than it was
ever intended comes across as a superiority complex and in poor taste.


Wildflower

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Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 6, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Wildflower Car wrote:

>> Someone wrote, seemingly in defense of a family in which cynicism and
>> unhappiness were common, "I think that as long as children are having
>> basic needs met, food, shelter, and love, they are better off being
>> unschooled."
>
> Why would you imply that I was in defense of a family where
> cynicism and
> unhappiness are common?

A family where cynicism and unhappiness are common could still
provide for those basic needs to be met, and you state that the kids
would be better off unschooling as long as those basic needs are met.
So kids are better off unschooling even in a family in which cynicism
and unhappiness are common. That's a defense of those families.

Maybe that's not what you meant to say?

-pam



Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

> A family where cynicism and unhappiness are common could still
> provide for those basic needs to be met, and you state that the
>kids would be better off unschooling as long as those basic needs
>are met. So kids are better off unschooling even in a family in
>which cynicism and unhappiness are common. That's a defense of
>those families.Maybe that's not what you meant to say?


Ackowledging that unschooling can happen in even less than ideal
circumstances isnt necessarily defending those circumstances. I've
seen parents told to "just put your kid in school" if they arent
able or willing to unschooling in an ideal way, or arent able to be
the "best" unschooling parent (because they are working fulltime, or
going through a divorce,or fighting with a spouse or whatever.)

My niece has a verbally abusive, emotionally absent alcoholic father
and a non-medicated/nondiagnosed bipolar mother off work on physical
disability. She (niece) usually stays in her room and reads. Would i
ever encourage her mother to homeschool? No, i think school is
probably an escape for my niece. But if her mother was willing to
put forth even a *minimal* amount of effort towards spending quality
time with her daughter, or occasionally getting out to do
fun/interesting things, then i would say homeschooling *would* be
better. She has those less-than-ideal parents whether or not she
goes to school, school just adds a whole other layer of stress to
her life. She sees our life, and knows it could be different for
her, but it won't be--not at home, not at school, and thats sad.

Obviously, this list isnt a place where we'd want to encourage "good
enough" unschooling, or minimal effort. But in a broader discussion
of when does school become a better option than
homeschooling/unschooling, i would say as long as the child and
parent both desire to unschool, and the environment isnt one that a
child would want an 8 hour daily escape from, then unschooling is
almost always better. "Cynicism and unhappiness" occur quite
frequently in the school setting, so i don't neccarily see it as a
salve to those particular problems.

Better that the parents continue to unschool, and work on the
behavior than decide "well i'm not cut out for unschooling" and put
the kids back in school. I would hope that a mother coming to this
list for help would not want to settle for an unhappy life, after
reading about all the joy and happiness that unschooling well brings
to the lives of those who are living it.


Katherine

Gold Standard

>>Better that the parents continue to unschool, and work on the
>>behavior<<

I read the original post that said "I think that as long as children are
having
basic needs met, food, shelter, and love, they are better off being
unschooled" as being a bit dismissive of the work that is talked about
above...the work that the parent could do to be more joyful and have a more
joyful home. Maybe the op didn't mean it that way, and maybe just a few of
us took it that way, but I was glad that the idea was expanded upon,
particularly because I believe the op was a person new to unschooling
(though my memory could be wrong this way) and it presented the idea to a
list that has many new unschoolers on it. The idea itself sitting out there
alone definitely felt unfinished to me.

Jacki

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 6, 2007, at 8:07 PM, queenjane555 wrote:

> Ackowledging that unschooling can happen in even less than ideal
> circumstances isnt necessarily defending those circumstances.


We're not talking about dealing with difficulties in a usually
positive family - heck, my family had a fire in our house and we
haven't been able to live in our own house for a year (not
complaining, we're living in a really nice apartment in a really nice
place and we're going to have a much nicer house when we move home,
just saying, yeah, for sure I know that difficulties happen and
living ).

The statement made was an absolute - that kids ARE better off
unschooling as long as basic needs are met. Lots of parents love
their kids and meet their basic needs, but still the kids might be
better off in school if the parents are negative and cynical and
creating a lot of unhappiness in the home. Don't you think it would
be better for kids to spend time away from that? Unschooling isn't
for everyone - and commonly cynical and unhappy is not conducive to
an encouraging, supportive, and positive household. Unschooling does
really need more than just loving our kids and meeting their basic
needs.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

>Lots of parents love their kids and meet their basic needs, but
>still the kids might be better off in school if the parents are
>negative and cynical and creating a lot of unhappiness in the home.
>Don't you think it would be better for kids to spend time away from
>that?

Sure, of course. But that doesnt necessarily mean school, and
sending a child to school may just create *more* unhappiness for
them, not less.

When i reread the thread, i felt like Wildflower was responding to
this by the original poster:

"I took out the "unwilling to change" because I feel I have now
become aware That I do project these traits and am wanting to change
and am actively trying to find ways to do this. However, it seems
like a very long process. My ds has just turned 12, does he have
time as for me to go through this process? I see the same type of
reactions in him. His biological father was a angry, critical person
too. Am I doing more damage than good trying to unschool him while I
work on these issues I have?"

She seems to be wondering if it would be better to unschool while
working on her issues, even if it isnt the "perfect" (for lack of a
better word)unschooling that many of us describe, or because this
might take her awhile would her son be better off in school. I guess
its a reasonable thing for a scared/unsure newbie mom of a 12 yr old
to wonder.

Wildflower responded "But I think that as long as children are
having basic needs met, food, shelter, and love, they are better off
being unschooled."

If a person feels that the mountain is so high they can't possibly
get to the top "in time", should they not bother to climb at all? I
would say, climb as quickly as you can, one boot in front of the
other, and don't worry about the top right now, just take it one
step at a time and try your best to climb as much as you can
*today*, if it seems that overwhelming to you.

I guess since my son had such a traumatizing experience in school
(that he still sometimes talks about over three years later), it
would take ALOT of unhappiness in our home for me to think school
was a better option. I wouldnt recommend someone do a half-assed job
of unschooling, or live in an unhappy, negative home. But yeah, i
think even a home that consists of the kind of "benign neglect" that
some parents try to pass off as unschooling is almost always
preferable to most school experiences. It can be so much better than
that though, and i would encourage any parent not to settle for less.


Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-If a person feels that the mountain is so high they can't possibly
get to the top "in time", should they not bother to climb at all? I
would say, climb as quickly as you can, one boot in front of the
other, and don't worry about the top right now, just take it one
step at a time and try your best to climb as much as you can
*today*, if it seems that overwhelming to you. -=-

Sure, and helping people do it now and better is what this list is
all about.

A response that seems to say "anything is better than school; don't
worry about trying to do anything beyond basic needs" won't really
help. It can seriously hinder.

-=-But yeah, i
think even a home that consists of the kind of "benign neglect" that
some parents try to pass off as unschooling is almost always
preferable to most school experiences.-=-

You can think that, but I don't think you'll find any state laws or
family courts to support it. One single family taken to trial for
acting on that belief would endanger all the unschoolers everywhere.

-=-It can be so much better than
that though, and i would encourage any parent not to settle for less.-=-

It HAS to be better than benign neglect, or it's nothing but benign
neglect.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

[queenjane posted]
Obviously, this list isnt a place where we'd want to encourage "good enough" unschooling, or minimal effort. But in a broader discussion of when does school become a better option than homeschooling/ unschooling, i would say as long as the child and parent both desire to unschool, and the environment isnt one that a child would want an 8 hour daily escape from, then unschooling is almost always better. "Cynicism and unhappiness" occur quite
frequently in the school setting, so i don't neccarily see it as a salve to those particular problems.

******
I'm so glad to see this come up now. Just yesterday I was on the phone with my sister. I asked how the home/unschooling is going and how her son is enjoying high school. After years of being a huge proponent of public schooling and NEED for education, my sister pulled her kids out of school after moving to Memphis, TN in Feb 05. Her son was 12 (almost 13 then) and her daughter 6. She went into it relaxed, thinking she'd put together her own curriculum.

Gradually, she drifted into unschooling something that looked like it wanted to be unschooling. Not really unschooling, tho I shared with her lots of links, info, answers to questions, etc. Her dh is really not on board, thinks they're doing their daughter a disservice. My first thought was that it's always better to get the kids home. I'm having to reconsider this thought.

This past spring my nephew visited for a few weeks. He had already decided then that he'd be returning to school in the fall -- this past August. In talking with him about this -- my sister had asked me to 'talk him into staying home' -- I learned why he wanted to return to school. They don't go anywhere -- my sister has health issues, they have only car, she can't find any nearby groups/activities, etc. I've found local uschoolers for her. Gary and I've gone most of the last year sharing one car, for a variety of reasons. I have days when I don't feel well. And yet, I find ways to get out with my kids -- I'm sure she could, too, but she doesn't! Her kids end up without social outlets; she doesn't manage to find a way to show her dh that the kids are learning. In short, she's not succeeding at homeschooling.

Then yesterday, while talking about how my nephew is doing in school, she said something and I realized she just totally does not get unschooling or natural learning. I had invited her to the last two conferences (she could have stayed with me and saved hotel money this past year) but she didn't make either one. She has family and friends in Dallas and could easily hit the RE conference, but hasn't. I'm beginning to worry that she is doing her kids a disservice, by simply not doing anything consistently enough. I know her well enough to guess that she's simply overwhelmed and doesn't feel she has the resources to do any more than she's doing. Maybe that's true -- I just don't know anymore.

I just don't see her overcoming the obstacles to true unschooling in her house -- or even some kind of relaxed, eclectic homeschooling. I'm sad to hear her daughter now talking about returning to school -- and my sister telling her that before she can go back, they need to 'make progress' or she'll never pass the test for grade placement.

I guess what bothers me most is that it's not that unschooling failed them, but that my sister failed to really get/live/share unschooling in a way that helped her children. I'm beginning to think, given my sister's underlying traditional mindset, that her kids really are better off in school.

Sylvia




Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (6)

Peace is the vibrant space which stimulates the dance of kindness, merriment and freedom. ~ unknown




http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com









---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Greenspan

-Sure, of course. But that doesnt necessarily mean school, and
sending a child to school may just create *more* unhappiness for
them, not less.

Thank you for this discussion. I think it is true that school may cause more
stress-for the whole family. I think that cynicism could be an outward
expression of frustrated emotional giftedness that needs nurturing. That
probably won't happen in a school. In this case, school would probably cause
more stress.




-If a person feels that the mountain is so high they can't possibly
get to the top "in time", should they not bother to climb at all? I
would say, climb as quickly as you can, one boot in front of the
other, and don't worry about the top right now, just take it one
step at a time and try your best to climb as much as you can
*today*, if it seems that overwhelming to you.



What I needed to see was hope. This is a great analogy.



Deborah



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

This has been sitting in my drafts folder for months, labelled "maybe
finish this or not..."
Yesterday I was agitated and angsty for a large part of the
afternoon. I wasn't happy. I was stressed. But I admitted it to
Keith and the kids and I made an effort to get out of it. With
practice and desire, people can learn to induce better moods. Really.

So here's what I had written and saved, whenever back on the list. I
don't remember who I'm quoting here, so don't out the person if she's
still here (or even if not)--let it be anonymous.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------

-=-And to tell someone to "perk up" and "be better"? Are we naive
people who don't understand that
life is not perky and better all the time?-=-

Please don't use "we" to generalize your statements to the group.

Life is not perky all the time. I can be better every second,
though, or worse. People make choices.

You chose to call me naive, and worse. That didn't help anyone
understand unschooling better. It didn't make you look compassionate
or thoughtful.

-=-Or to tell someone that might
actually make it happen? -=-

Are you saying that encouraging people to be happier will have no
effect?
Are you saying that recommending the simple tools of determining how
one wants to be (defining principles and knowing how something might
be better) and then making choices in that direction is naive and in
poor taste?

-=-And to imply that doing these things make you a
more adequate unschooler is naive as best.-=-

Being happy makes one a happier unschooler.
Being more positive positively makes one a better unschooler.

There is no such thing as "more adequate."
"Adequate" is half-assed.


If you would like to begin a list for the discussion of the bare
minimum you consider to be acceptable unschooling, go and do it. Go
here: http://groups.yahoo.com/start
Yahoogroups will walk you through forming the group. You can
advertise it here, once, and then you can go and do whatever it is
you want to do, which you think is greatly superior to this list's
seven year history of encouraging people to do incrementally better
until their lives are happy, sparkly, and fun. It can be done.
It's done all the time.

If you can't do it, don't say "we."
My family has been doing it for years and has done it today. We
know the direction away from where we want to be, and we know the
direction toward. When most decisions move toward our ideal, the day
is better, unschooling is better, our lives are better. Better isn't
"adequate." It's better. And it can continue to get better.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

That's what I wrote then.
Since then I've dealt with a couple of unhappy families who didn't
even see the negativity they were so used to.

In some circles it's popular to be cynical and disdainful of concepts
like "perky" and "joyful." If one defines happiness as "stupid" and
belittles people who claim they like being happy, it will be
somewhere between difficult and impossible for those families to
cultivate joy.

Happiness isn't a constant here, but it's the common mode.
Unhappiness is the exception.

Sandra












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lorilee Kopp

I tend to read from this group on a minimal basis, but when I read
this I associated with it right away. I have been unschooling my two
boys (8yo, 4yo) for almost four years now and I have never felt so
much joy! We have our bad days, sure, but after we leap over our
hurdles we are stronger and have learned so much about each other
and our limits. I have found that learning is constant. We know each
other so well that we just fit like a puzzle and are happy about 99%
of the time.
Now when I spend time with other families that aren't in the same
place we are I get some side effects of jealousy and almost anger
from them. Instead of sharing our experiences and learning from one
another there is competition and denial of their negative attitudes.
It is the most upsetting thing in my life. The hostility will linger
with me for days... why did they do that? why can't we just learn
from one another? why did they want to compete with me (us)? why
does it have to be this way? can't they see my amazing children for
the beautiful people that they are, not where they are failing?
I know that I need to learn to just ignore them. Find my oily back
so to say. But it is hard for me and something that I try very hard
each day to let go of. Why do I need to know why? :)
My children, husband and I love unschooling! It fits our
personalities and our lives. I wish that others could see the beauty
of a happy family and share in our joy more often than they do.
Does anyone else experience this? Or do I just hang around the
worong people:) ?
Thanks for listening.
Lorilee Kopp in Missouri

-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>
> This has been sitting in my drafts folder for months,
labelled "maybe
> finish this or not..."
> Yesterday I was agitated and angsty for a large part of the
> afternoon. I wasn't happy. I was stressed. But I admitted it
to
> Keith and the kids and I made an effort to get out of it. With
> practice and desire, people can learn to induce better moods.
Really.
>
> So here's what I had written and saved, whenever back on the
list. I
> don't remember who I'm quoting here, so don't out the person if
she's
> still here (or even if not)--let it be anonymous.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> -----------------
>
> -=-And to tell someone to "perk up" and "be better"? Are we naive
> people who don't understand that
> life is not perky and better all the time?-=-
>
> Please don't use "we" to generalize your statements to the group.
>
> Life is not perky all the time. I can be better every second,
> though, or worse. People make choices.
>
> You chose to call me naive, and worse. That didn't help anyone
> understand unschooling better. It didn't make you look
compassionate
> or thoughtful.
>
> -=-Or to tell someone that might
> actually make it happen? -=-
>
> Are you saying that encouraging people to be happier will have no
> effect?
> Are you saying that recommending the simple tools of determining
how
> one wants to be (defining principles and knowing how something
might
> be better) and then making choices in that direction is naive and
in
> poor taste?
>
> -=-And to imply that doing these things make you a
> more adequate unschooler is naive as best.-=-
>
> Being happy makes one a happier unschooler.
> Being more positive positively makes one a better unschooler.
>
> There is no such thing as "more adequate."
> "Adequate" is half-assed.
>
>
> If you would like to begin a list for the discussion of the bare
> minimum you consider to be acceptable unschooling, go and do it.
Go
> here: http://groups.yahoo.com/start
> Yahoogroups will walk you through forming the group. You can
> advertise it here, once, and then you can go and do whatever it
is
> you want to do, which you think is greatly superior to this
list's
> seven year history of encouraging people to do incrementally
better
> until their lives are happy, sparkly, and fun. It can be
done.
> It's done all the time.
>
> If you can't do it, don't say "we."
> My family has been doing it for years and has done it today. We
> know the direction away from where we want to be, and we know the
> direction toward. When most decisions move toward our ideal, the
day
> is better, unschooling is better, our lives are better. Better
isn't
> "adequate." It's better. And it can continue to get better.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> ------------------------------
>
> That's what I wrote then.
> Since then I've dealt with a couple of unhappy families who
didn't
> even see the negativity they were so used to.
>
> In some circles it's popular to be cynical and disdainful of
concepts
> like "perky" and "joyful." If one defines happiness as "stupid"
and
> belittles people who claim they like being happy, it will be
> somewhere between difficult and impossible for those families to
> cultivate joy.
>
> Happiness isn't a constant here, but it's the common mode.
> Unhappiness is the exception.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Instead of sharing our experiences and learning from one
another there is competition and denial of their negative attitudes.
It is the most upsetting thing in my life. The hostility will linger
with me for days... -=-

I still get frustrated when a mom is being mean to her kids around
me, especially when I'm either drawn into seeming to agree with her
(or needing to choose to overtly disagree or criticize her to avoid
that), or when it really inconveniences my own kids.

Try to shake it off, though, and let it go when the other family's
gone. Either they'll badmouth you behind your back or they won't.
Either they will lighten up when you're not looking or they won't.

The good thing about my kids seeing other parents be harsh or
hypocritical is that they put it on their internal checklists as ways
not to be. They learn more about people in general, and about
themselves.


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

harmony

This weekend my daughter (8years old) and I were clothes shopping. We were in the dressing room and another lady was yelling at her daughter(about 2 or 3) the entire time we were in there. Finally my daughter sighed and said"that's not the way to deal with children" I chuckled and we discussed it a little, but I thought it kind of fit with this and how people treat their children differently. The funny things kids say...are actually very smart.
Harmony


> -------Original Message-------
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Perking up
> Sent: Oct 22 '07 2:24pm
>
> -=-Instead of sharing our experiences and learning from one
> another there is competition and denial of their negative attitudes.
> It is the most upsetting thing in my life. The hostility will linger
> with me for days... -=-
>
> I still get frustrated when a mom is being mean to her kids around
> me, especially when I'm either drawn into seeming to agree with her
> (or needing to choose to overtly disagree or criticize her to avoid
> that), or when it really inconveniences my own kids.
>
> Try to shake it off, though, and let it go when the other family's
> gone. Either they'll badmouth you behind your back or they won't.
> Either they will lighten up when you're not looking or they won't.
>
> The good thing about my kids seeing other parents be harsh or
> hypocritical is that they put it on their internal checklists as ways
> not to be. They learn more about people in general, and about
> themselves.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

olga o

***This weekend my daughter (8years old) and I were clothes shopping. We
were in the dressing room and another lady was yelling at her daughter(about
2 or 3) the entire time we were in there. Finally my daughter sighed and
said"that's not the way to deal with children" I chuckled and we discussed
it a little, but I thought it kind of fit with this and how people treat
their children differently. The funny things kids say...are actually very
smart.
Harmony***

Harmony,
Your story reminds me of a time when I was in the store with my older two
kids before the third was born. The oldest was about 3+ and the younger
was about 5 months and slung on my back. We were standing in the check out
line and there was a very frazzled looking woman in front of us with a
crying baby in a bucket perched on the cart. My daughter looks up at me and
says, "why doesn't that woman just nurse her baby? That's what he
*needs*!" I just shrugged and said, "I don't know, honey. Is that what
you'd do?" She says, "well, it couldn't be worse than this..." =)

olga*
--
877 4 LA LECHE
La Leche League's Breastfeeding Helpline - US
Breastfeeding Help 24 Hours a day


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<This weekend my daughter (8years old) and I were clothes shopping. We were
in the dressing room and another lady was yelling at her daughter(about 2 or
3) the entire time we were in there. Finally my daughter sighed and said"that's
not the way to deal with children" I chuckled and we discussed it a little,
but I thought it kind of fit with this and how people treat their children
differently. >>

My 11yo daughter's friend's mom is *very* punitive and I just heard from my
daughter who heard from the friend that this mom took away her cherished
stuffed bunny (which was a gift from *my* daughter) because she left it on the
couch! (I know, what kind of rule is that, anyway??)

So now my daughter is totally upset, what's going to happen to the bunny?
(because in her world, stuffed animals are very real.) So we've had discussions
about how cruel it is to treat your kids that way, expecting them to follow
every rule and never make mistakes.

I know I won't get anywhere with criticizing the mom, but I did send her an
email asking her a favor, avoiding making any judgment of her parenting. Since
my daughter is so upset, if what we've heard is true and she is planning to
get rid of the bunny, would she be willing to give it back to my daughter? I
even offered to pay postage since she lives out of state. We'll see what she
says.

It's so annoying to me when other people's lame parenting hurts other
people's kids!

I'm not sure how this ties in with helping the original poster. Maybe
something along the lines of finding "the serenity to accept the things you can't
change, courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the
difference."

Patty




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Sandra Dodd

-=-It's so annoying to me when other people's lame parenting hurts other
people's kids!-=-

Yes.
And it hurts their children's friendships sometimes.

A couple of Holly's local female friends, one lately and one years
ago, used the "privilege" of hanging out with Holly to control them
about things like cleaning toilets and guessing how the parents
wanted them to respond to questions, basically. They could get in
trouble for attitude.

So in the case of each family, more than once Holly got a
cancellation very late, like the day before or the same day, that
something she had looked forward to wasn't going to happen.

All it seemed like was a punishment for liking someone whose parents
were more interested in punishment than compassion and joy. And the
parents clearly cared *nothing* about Holly and her feelings.

Sandra

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jenstarc4

>
> It's so annoying to me when other people's lame parenting hurts other
> people's kids!
>

Yes! Chamille's best friend is mostly always grounded from her. I had
a talk with the dad a while back asking him to please not use that as a
form of grounding and punishment for his daughter because it punished
mine too and was unfair. He agreed to my face and told me he wouldn't
do that anymore, but he does and his daughter is currently grounded
from ALL contact from any friends indefinitely, but she only has one
friend, my daughter.

Chamille is in a constant state of hurt over it. It's really unfair,
but there is little we can do about it, except to try and find more
friends. Chamille not only hurts for herself, but being the very
empathic person she is, she hurts for her friend as well.

Our recent attempt at contact is written about here:

http://jenniferstar.blogspot.com/

As far as public encounters with mean parents, it just screams out
loudly in our peaceful life of being nice to kids. It's like getting
stung by a bee when you are innocently smelling those pretty flowers.
Chamille has less tolerance than I do in regards to mean parents in
public places. She just wants to leave and now, while I try to impress
happiness on the situation hoping for a positive change in the moment.

harmony

>
> Yes! Chamille's best friend is mostly always grounded from her. I had
> a talk with the dad a while back asking him to please not use that as a
> form of grounding and punishment for his daughter because it punished
> mine too and was unfair. He agreed to my face and told me he wouldn't
> do that anymore, but he does and his daughter is currently grounded
> from ALL contact from any friends indefinitely, but she only has one
> friend, my daughter.


But sometimes you run into parents (but probably not often!) that are the opposite. My kids have a friend and if he is in trouble his parents will call and ask if my kids can come stay the night to help him behave. They also use my kids as babysitters so they don't have to entertain their child. He is 8 and my kids are 8 and 10. The mom would rather have my kids at her house to play with her kid so he will "stay out of her hair"
Harmony

[email protected]

<<Since my daughter is so upset, if what we've heard is true and she is
planning to
get rid of the bunny, would she be willing to give it back to my daughter? I
even offered to pay postage since she lives out of state. We'll see what she
says.>>

Replying to my own post...

Good news (sort of)...the mom's planning to try to persuade the stepdad, who
was actually the one who took it, to give back the bunny when the girl does
something "cool, responsible or mature." I'm not supposed to tell my daughter.
So of course, what do I do, I tell my daughter.

So there's another thing. It's so annoying when other parents expect my
loyalty to be to *them* instead of to my own kid!

Abby (my daughter, who now says she's okay with me using her name) says she
thinks it'd be best not to tell the friend so she doesn't get her hopes up.
But she *might* advise her, as a friend, of course, that maybe the parents might
give her back the bunny if she does something cool, responsible or mature.
LOL!

Argh, what a mess, watch this come back and bite me in the butt. I'm the one
who ends up feeling like the naughty kid!

My son (12) has a friend who's being punished right now too. He's not
allowed to play Maplestory online until November, or talk on the phone with my son
while he plays it, so he sneaks in these three-minute calls and then hangs up
the phone when he hears his mom coming. I asked my son what the friend did
that was so terrible. The friend says he doesn't remember.

Patty




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