C Johnson

First some history since I haven't posted in quite awhile; My children are 10 and 7. Their father passed away in May after being sick since March. We have started putting our lives back together and moved into a new house in a different town. We have lived here two months. My boyfriend has lived with us almost 3 yrs now. We lived with their father until he passed away. Recently they have started doing things my boyfriend asks them not too, especially my 10 yro daughter. This does not happen to me. Little things, but it is bothering him enough our house is starting to get really uncomfortable. We do not punish them, but talk. I have given him different things to read about unschooling and peaceful parenting. He feels like when they do these little things they are lying to him because they tell him they understand what he is saying and then do it anyway. Here is an example of what happens; He asked them not to slide down the hill by our house when it was icy,
because he didn't want them hitting the house. When they did it anyway he explained that he didn't want them to get hurt and if they would have told him it was the best hill they could find, he would have showed them an even better one that didn't run into the house. After something like this happens, he gets really upset. This keeps happening and I cannot figure out what we are doing wrong. It is interfering with our unschooling and making our home feel divided. We used to do everything as a family. Has this ever happened to anyone before and what can him or I do to communicate properly with the children? He wants to start punishing them because it worked with him and I feel like that would make it worse. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Chrissie


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Vida

Chrissie,

I have the same question. My daughter (8) also does things anyways.
I have no advise to give as I am re-learning some things I seem to
have forgotten these past 2 years. What I can say is that punishment
does NOT work. I made the mistake of trying it.... and not the time
out type or go to your room, or threats of no TV etc..... I just
started yelling at her and the more I let myself do that, the worse
it got.... I can't imagine what would have happened if I locked her
in her room without supper. The results have accumulated over 2
years and the only thing I have accomplished is to make her afraid of
me, to make her feel she needs to lie, to push her away so that she
doesn't talk to me.

Please, please do not resort to punishment...... please don't do that
to them. And please don't resort to hurtful words when feeling
frustrated... making them feel horrible about themselves.... tears
come to my eyes while writing this. It's not worth it.

I patiently wait for the wise words of the parents on this list. In
just one day I made things different by following and re-learning
what I used to do/be. Just one day of "yes" and suddenly I'm getting
my spontaneous hugs back, the I love you's, 80% more co-
operation..... A reality slap in the face that it's not them (my
children) it's how I react to them that creates nearly all the
disturbance in our home... the resistance..... Please don't make my
mistake.

Vida

marji

>At 03:34 2/2/2007, you wrote:
>Has this ever happened to anyone before and what can him or I do to
>communicate properly with the children? He wants to start punishing
>them because it worked with him and I feel like that would make it
>worse. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I'm so glad you asked! Frankly (since you asked), I don't think your
daughters are the problem! I think it's your boyfriend. Apart from
all the extremely complex issues that your very young daughters are
having to go through regarding grieving for their father and now
having to live with and submit to the rules & regs of someone whom
they probably did not choose, it would be far better if your
boyfriend understood that *he* is setting the girls up to "disobey" him.

Rather than tell them "don't do this" and "don't do that," perhaps he
can be encouraged to use his experience and intellect to find ways of
helping them do what they seem to want to do! For example, since
they like *that* hill, get a couple of bales of hay or some other
kind of soft barrier so they won't get hurt if they go too
far. Showing them a "better" hill is not the same as helping them do
what they want to do (although he could show them other hills, too,
but not instead of that one). If he finds ways of saying "yes," he
will be supportive rather than undermining, and everyone (including
him) will be happier! Saying "no" only encourages them to go
underground and get sneaky, which is a horrible dynamic and sets
things on a path of extreme yuckiness where it's *us against
them*. That kind of thing will totally undermine unschooling!

But, my gut is telling me (and I could, of course, be completely
wrong) that he may be annoyed that they're "getting away" with stuff
that *he* couldn't when he was a wee one. My gut tells me that he's
kind of chomping at the bit to punish, and that's why he setting them
up with arbitrary restrictions that they *will* break so that he can
punish them.

My suggestion (since you asked) :-) would be to examine each one of
the *issues* that your boyfriend is having with what your girls are
doing that bug him, and find out *how* they can still do what *they*
want to do so that they are safe and happy and encouraged and feeling loved.

And, if it were me (and, of course, it's not, but you *did* ask!), I
would let my boyfriend know unequivocally and in no uncertain terms
that disciplining *my* kids was not part of *his* job description,
and hands off! If he wanted to understand unschooling better, I'd be
happy to give him resources so he could get up to speed with my
parenting philosophies, but he would also be hearing from me that
until he understands what I'm doing and why, his input is not
welcome! I wouldn't give a @#$% what worked for him when he was
little because he's not them, you're not his mom, and they're not
living in the same circumstances that *he* did! (You might consider
figuring out a gentler way to say that to him then I just did, but
I'd keep the 2x4 handy, just in case!) ;-)

I hope that helps!!

Marji, puttin' up her dukes!



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Sandra Dodd

-=-He feels like when they do these little things they are lying to
him because they tell him they understand what he is saying and then
do it anyway.-=-

Has he stated any intent to change and do things more the way you
want them done?
If so, would he feel he was "lying to you" if he said he understood
and then did it anyway?

That's a harsh definition of lying (and I'm pretty harsh about the
concept myself).

Are they afraid NOT to agree with him during the conversation, and so
the only way they can win or express themselves is to make their own
decisions?

If he'll be mad at them about making a decision in the moment, that's
not helping them learn to make decisions, it's helping them learn to
be afraid of him, to avoid him, and not to respect him.

-=-He asked them not to slide down the hill by our house when it was
icy,
because he didn't want them hitting the house. When they did it
anyway he explained that he didn't want them to get hurt and if they
would have told him it was the best hill they could find, he would
have showed them an even better one that didn't run into the house.-=-

Put some old mattress or box springs against the house as a pad they
can aim for. Maybe they took it the way I did (MAYBE, not probably)
if he said it the way you first worded it. On the first sentence
alone, it sounds like more concern for the house than for them.

-=-He wants to start punishing them because it worked with him and I
feel like that would make it worse. -=-

It "worked" for him in that he wants to pass it on.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-If he finds ways of saying "yes," he
will be supportive rather than undermining, and everyone (including
him) will be happier! Saying "no" only encourages them to go
underground and get sneaky, which is a horrible dynamic and sets
things on a path of extreme yuckiness where it's *us against
them*. That kind of thing will totally undermine unschooling!-=-

Oh. Marji said what I said only better. <g>

Well hearing it twice might be reinforcing. <bwg>

http://sandradodd.com/yes

Joyce explains the depth of benefit of that "yes" stuff really well
on that page.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sunday Cote

-=-If he finds ways of saying "yes," he
will be supportive rather than undermining, and everyone (including
him) will be happier! Saying "no" only encourages them to go
underground and get sneaky, which is a horrible dynamic and sets
things on a path of extreme yuckiness where it's *us against
them*. That kind of thing will totally undermine unschooling!-=-

This is so true! My kids were really on the fast track to sneakiness
when I had a lot of rules and limits in my house. It concerned me to
see the adversarial relationship being created between us. It really
made an impact on me when I discover one son trying to distract me while
my other son hovered in a corner of the garage gulping down the Capri
Sun he had smuggled from the fridge. Yikes! That got my attention and
I realized that this was NOT the relationship I wanted with my kids. I
decided right then to go from rules to principles!

That was almost two years ago and I had a wonderful conversation with my
8 year old about lying the other day that confirms we are on the right
path. He asked me if I ever lied. I say that of course I've lied. He
asked why. I said that whenever I lie, it's usually because I'm afraid
that the person I'm lying to will not love me anymore if they knew the
truth. I said that I really try hard not to lie and if I ever feel the
desire I remember that I'm lovable anyway and I don't have to hide my
mistakes. (I wasn't saying this in a preachy kind of way, hoping he'd
get it. It was just a conversation and the sincere truth for me.) He
thought for a minute and said, "I haven't lied in a long time. I really
don't have a reason to anymore."

I love those little moments.

Sunday

C Johnson

"that kind of thing will totally undermine unschooling!"

Oh yes, I totally agree. That is why I asked for advice :)

Chrissie

Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-If he finds ways of saying "yes," he
will be supportive rather than undermining, and everyone (including
him) will be happier! Saying "no" only encourages them to go
underground and get sneaky, which is a horrible dynamic and sets
things on a path of extreme yuckiness where it's *us against
them*. That kind of thing will totally undermine unschooling!-=-

Oh. Marji said what I said only better. <g>

Well hearing it twice might be reinforcing. <bwg>

http://sandradodd.com/yes

Joyce explains the depth of benefit of that "yes" stuff really well
on that page.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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C Johnson

Marji,

Yes you helped a lot. Oh and I have a 10 yro daughter and a 7 yro son lol. I think his childhood did have a lot to do with him being so upset, because he did feel like they were "getting away" with things and he never did. When you said he was "setting the children up to "disobey" him", that really made him think. Thank you so much for the advice and don't worry about putting up your dukes, things are starting to feel much better and more peaceful around here.

Thanks again,
Chrissie

marji <marji@...> wrote:

>At 03:34 2/2/2007, you wrote:
>Has this ever happened to anyone before and what can him or I do to
>communicate properly with the children? He wants to start punishing
>them because it worked with him and I feel like that would make it
>worse. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I'm so glad you asked! Frankly (since you asked), I don't think your
daughters are the problem! I think it's your boyfriend. Apart from
all the extremely complex issues that your very young daughters are
having to go through regarding grieving for their father and now
having to live with and submit to the rules & regs of someone whom
they probably did not choose, it would be far better if your
boyfriend understood that *he* is setting the girls up to "disobey" him.

Rather than tell them "don't do this" and "don't do that," perhaps he
can be encouraged to use his experience and intellect to find ways of
helping them do what they seem to want to do! For example, since
they like *that* hill, get a couple of bales of hay or some other
kind of soft barrier so they won't get hurt if they go too
far. Showing them a "better" hill is not the same as helping them do
what they want to do (although he could show them other hills, too,
but not instead of that one). If he finds ways of saying "yes," he
will be supportive rather than undermining, and everyone (including
him) will be happier! Saying "no" only encourages them to go
underground and get sneaky, which is a horrible dynamic and sets
things on a path of extreme yuckiness where it's *us against
them*. That kind of thing will totally undermine unschooling!

But, my gut is telling me (and I could, of course, be completely
wrong) that he may be annoyed that they're "getting away" with stuff
that *he* couldn't when he was a wee one. My gut tells me that he's
kind of chomping at the bit to punish, and that's why he setting them
up with arbitrary restrictions that they *will* break so that he can
punish them.

My suggestion (since you asked) :-) would be to examine each one of
the *issues* that your boyfriend is having with what your girls are
doing that bug him, and find out *how* they can still do what *they*
want to do so that they are safe and happy and encouraged and feeling loved.

And, if it were me (and, of course, it's not, but you *did* ask!), I
would let my boyfriend know unequivocally and in no uncertain terms
that disciplining *my* kids was not part of *his* job description,
and hands off! If he wanted to understand unschooling better, I'd be
happy to give him resources so he could get up to speed with my
parenting philosophies, but he would also be hearing from me that
until he understands what I'm doing and why, his input is not
welcome! I wouldn't give a @#$% what worked for him when he was
little because he's not them, you're not his mom, and they're not
living in the same circumstances that *he* did! (You might consider
figuring out a gentler way to say that to him then I just did, but
I'd keep the 2x4 handy, just in case!) ;-)

I hope that helps!!

Marji, puttin' up her dukes!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana

--- In [email protected], C Johnson <piscesmomx3@...>
wrote:
>
> First some history since I haven't posted in quite awhile; My children
are 10 and 7. Their father passed away in May after being sick since
March. We have started putting our lives back together and moved into a
new house in a different town. We have lived here two months. My
boyfriend has lived with us almost 3 yrs now. We lived with their
father until he passed away. Recently they have started doing things my
boyfriend asks them not too, especially my 10 yro daughter. This does
not happen to me. Little things, but it is bothering him enough our
house is starting to get really uncomfortable. We do not punish them,
but talk. I have given him different things to read about unschooling
and peaceful parenting. He feels like when they do these little things
they are lying to him because they tell him they understand what he is
saying and then do it anyway. Here is an example of what happens; He
asked them not to slide down the hill by our house when it was icy,
because he didn't want them hitting the house. When they did it anyway
he explained that he didn't want them to get hurt and if they would have
told him it was the best hill they could find, he would have showed them
an even better one that didn't run into the house. After something like
this happens, he gets really upset. This keeps happening and I cannot
figure out what we are doing wrong. It is interfering with our
unschooling and making our home feel divided. We used to do everything
as a family. Has this ever happened to anyone before and what can him
or I do to communicate properly with the children? He wants to start
punishing them because it worked with him and I feel like that would
make it worse. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
>

Grieving may have a big influence here... It's especially normal for
kids to question the permanence of every single person in their realm,
after experiencing Death. "Why should I listen to you? You're just
gonna die anyway!!" was my first thought when I read their behaviors.
It's a bizarre human thing to think that Death is somehow easier if we
just don't love each other so much... but we do it, we distance
ourselves to avoid the pain. Then there are those who refuse to be
distanced, who come again and again with love, and those are the ones
you know you won't mind missing so much. They're worth our appreciation
in the here and now. I would say the benefits of his relationship with
them has to outweigh their fear of the death of another loved one. Let
him be the *fun, right here* guy, more than usual, for a while. There's
a faith renewal that needs to happen here: 1- we can survive Death; 2-
we can count on those who are still here; 3-Life is the best way to
spend our time before we die.

I could go on forever! But I'll sum up with, this behavior is a call
for a gentle, loving response. Worth it!
~diana :)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C Johnson

Thank you, Diana.

BB,
Chrissie

diana <hahamommy@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], C Johnson <piscesmomx3@...>
wrote:
>
> First some history since I haven't posted in quite awhile; My children
are 10 and 7. Their father passed away in May after being sick since
March. We have started putting our lives back together and moved into a
new house in a different town. We have lived here two months. My
boyfriend has lived with us almost 3 yrs now. We lived with their
father until he passed away. Recently they have started doing things my
boyfriend asks them not too, especially my 10 yro daughter. This does
not happen to me. Little things, but it is bothering him enough our
house is starting to get really uncomfortable. We do not punish them,
but talk. I have given him different things to read about unschooling
and peaceful parenting. He feels like when they do these little things
they are lying to him because they tell him they understand what he is
saying and then do it anyway. Here is an example of what happens; He
asked them not to slide down the hill by our house when it was icy,
because he didn't want them hitting the house. When they did it anyway
he explained that he didn't want them to get hurt and if they would have
told him it was the best hill they could find, he would have showed them
an even better one that didn't run into the house. After something like
this happens, he gets really upset. This keeps happening and I cannot
figure out what we are doing wrong. It is interfering with our
unschooling and making our home feel divided. We used to do everything
as a family. Has this ever happened to anyone before and what can him
or I do to communicate properly with the children? He wants to start
punishing them because it worked with him and I feel like that would
make it worse. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
>

Grieving may have a big influence here... It's especially normal for
kids to question the permanence of every single person in their realm,
after experiencing Death. "Why should I listen to you? You're just
gonna die anyway!!" was my first thought when I read their behaviors.
It's a bizarre human thing to think that Death is somehow easier if we
just don't love each other so much... but we do it, we distance
ourselves to avoid the pain. Then there are those who refuse to be
distanced, who come again and again with love, and those are the ones
you know you won't mind missing so much. They're worth our appreciation
in the here and now. I would say the benefits of his relationship with
them has to outweigh their fear of the death of another loved one. Let
him be the *fun, right here* guy, more than usual, for a while. There's
a faith renewal that needs to happen here: 1- we can survive Death; 2-
we can count on those who are still here; 3-Life is the best way to
spend our time before we die.

I could go on forever! But I'll sum up with, this behavior is a call
for a gentle, loving response. Worth it!
~diana :)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf

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