Let's go back to what the question was...
sorschasmom
I want to go back to what my question was, it seems the conversation
is taking a different route then what I am needing information
regarding.
As for questions, the families involved are wonderful RUing families
and the children have lots of support and great relationships with
their families. My question is not in regards to the particular
situation or children involved. My question is about my feelings as
a RUing parent and Sorscha that arose from the situation. In the
particular situation, the parents openly discussed it and have moved
on. The situation that the families are absolutely fine with has
sparked questions for me and my relationship with Sorscha.
Here is my question:
If a non-sexual 9-year-old Sorscha were in a situation with a child
who was 13 or 14 who was sexual (again, the sexual is not a concern
of mine, it is the difference in the age range and then being sexual)
should as a RUing parent I be concerned / upset, etc.?
If I truly trust Sorscha to make decisions for her self then should I
be okay if she were to make a decision to kiss this older child? I
am feeling like I would have a problem with it and I am truly trying
to figure out if my feelings are appropriate. My first reaction
would be to feel like Sorscha was being taken advantage of, however,
I am feeling like by feeling that way that I am possibly placing
my `junk' onto the situation.
I hope I am making sense. The sexuality part is not my concern it is
the age. If Sorscha were a sexual person and in a situation with
another child around her age I would not be feeling this way. It is
the difference of years and experience and how this plays a part in
our Radical Unschooling lifestyle.
~Crystal~
is taking a different route then what I am needing information
regarding.
As for questions, the families involved are wonderful RUing families
and the children have lots of support and great relationships with
their families. My question is not in regards to the particular
situation or children involved. My question is about my feelings as
a RUing parent and Sorscha that arose from the situation. In the
particular situation, the parents openly discussed it and have moved
on. The situation that the families are absolutely fine with has
sparked questions for me and my relationship with Sorscha.
Here is my question:
If a non-sexual 9-year-old Sorscha were in a situation with a child
who was 13 or 14 who was sexual (again, the sexual is not a concern
of mine, it is the difference in the age range and then being sexual)
should as a RUing parent I be concerned / upset, etc.?
If I truly trust Sorscha to make decisions for her self then should I
be okay if she were to make a decision to kiss this older child? I
am feeling like I would have a problem with it and I am truly trying
to figure out if my feelings are appropriate. My first reaction
would be to feel like Sorscha was being taken advantage of, however,
I am feeling like by feeling that way that I am possibly placing
my `junk' onto the situation.
I hope I am making sense. The sexuality part is not my concern it is
the age. If Sorscha were a sexual person and in a situation with
another child around her age I would not be feeling this way. It is
the difference of years and experience and how this plays a part in
our Radical Unschooling lifestyle.
~Crystal~
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I truly trust Sorscha to make decisions for her self then should I
be okay if she were to make a decision to kiss this older child? I
am feeling like I would have a problem with it and I am truly trying
to figure out if my feelings are appropriate. My first reaction
would be to feel like Sorscha was being taken advantage of, however,
I am feeling like by feeling that way that I am possibly placing
my `junk' onto the situation. -=-
Well your "junk" (your experiences and your feelings) ARE part of her
life.
-=-The sexuality part is not my concern it is
the age. If Sorscha were a sexual person and in a situation with
another child around her age I would not be feeling this way. It is
the difference of years and experience and how this plays a part in
our Radical Unschooling lifestyle. -=-
Well that seems unfair. If she were likely to initiate sexual
behaviors with another child, would it really matter to you if that
child were younger, her age or older? If it's inappropriate, it's
inappropriate.
Many years ago in an incident my children don't remember, a six year
old boy did something inappropriate. It involved touch and language,
and I could have thrown a gigantic fit but I didn't. And the other
family offered to pay for counselling, but that wasn't even the
point. They needed themSELVES in counselling. The mother said, when
we discussed it very calmly for a long time, that she was sorry
because he was five years older than the girl, that if it had been
[named a six year old girl who was also in our playgroup] it would've
been different, but...
It would NOT have been different.
Little boys shouldn't sticking ANY parts of themselves (finger or
anything else) inside any parts of little girls, , whether those
girls are younger, same aged or older.
Little girls shouldn't be inviting that play, either.
So if the only question is age, I don't think that should matter.
After both kids are in or through puberty, they should have enough
clues to know what the real dangers are, and parents can't protect
them from everything forever (nor should they even want to). Once
they're out on their own away from adults, they'll have the tools
their parents have helped them develop and whatever else they've
gleaned from other sources.
The development of the tools should start early, I think. Knowledge
is power. Too much knowledge can be abusive. Telling children
EVERYTHING robs them of some of the peace of childhood. Telling them
nothing is also wrong.
Balance and compassion and mindfulness are the only way to figure it
out for the particular child. Watch your child, listen to your child,
don't be too paranoid or too naive either one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be okay if she were to make a decision to kiss this older child? I
am feeling like I would have a problem with it and I am truly trying
to figure out if my feelings are appropriate. My first reaction
would be to feel like Sorscha was being taken advantage of, however,
I am feeling like by feeling that way that I am possibly placing
my `junk' onto the situation. -=-
Well your "junk" (your experiences and your feelings) ARE part of her
life.
-=-The sexuality part is not my concern it is
the age. If Sorscha were a sexual person and in a situation with
another child around her age I would not be feeling this way. It is
the difference of years and experience and how this plays a part in
our Radical Unschooling lifestyle. -=-
Well that seems unfair. If she were likely to initiate sexual
behaviors with another child, would it really matter to you if that
child were younger, her age or older? If it's inappropriate, it's
inappropriate.
Many years ago in an incident my children don't remember, a six year
old boy did something inappropriate. It involved touch and language,
and I could have thrown a gigantic fit but I didn't. And the other
family offered to pay for counselling, but that wasn't even the
point. They needed themSELVES in counselling. The mother said, when
we discussed it very calmly for a long time, that she was sorry
because he was five years older than the girl, that if it had been
[named a six year old girl who was also in our playgroup] it would've
been different, but...
It would NOT have been different.
Little boys shouldn't sticking ANY parts of themselves (finger or
anything else) inside any parts of little girls, , whether those
girls are younger, same aged or older.
Little girls shouldn't be inviting that play, either.
So if the only question is age, I don't think that should matter.
After both kids are in or through puberty, they should have enough
clues to know what the real dangers are, and parents can't protect
them from everything forever (nor should they even want to). Once
they're out on their own away from adults, they'll have the tools
their parents have helped them develop and whatever else they've
gleaned from other sources.
The development of the tools should start early, I think. Knowledge
is power. Too much knowledge can be abusive. Telling children
EVERYTHING robs them of some of the peace of childhood. Telling them
nothing is also wrong.
Balance and compassion and mindfulness are the only way to figure it
out for the particular child. Watch your child, listen to your child,
don't be too paranoid or too naive either one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorschasmom
<<Well your "junk" (your experiences and your feelings) ARE part of
her life.>>
Well put, but I am very careful to keep my 'junk' out of her life and
that is why I am asking this question here.
<<Well that seems unfair. If she were likely to initiate sexual
behaviors with another child, would it really matter to you if that
child were younger, her age or older? If it's inappropriate, it's
inappropriate.>>
If two teens around the same age are sexual and decide to explore...I
do not have a problem with that or see it as inappropriate. They are
equals, equal sexuality, equal age, etc. There might be some
inequalities but they are mostly equal. What I am asking is if my
feelings of difference in age and experience are valid.
<<Little boys shouldn't sticking ANY parts of themselves (finger or
anything else) inside any parts of little girls, , whether those
girls are younger, same aged or older. Little girls shouldn't be
inviting that play, either. So if the only question is age, I don't
think that should matter.>>
Straight talk that I appreciate.
<<After both kids are in or through puberty, they should have enough
clues to know what the real dangers are, and parents can't protect
them from everything forever (nor should they even want to).>>
YES, that is why Sorscha and I talk a lot. That is why I want to get
my feelings straight.
<<Once they're out on their own away from adults, they'll have the
tools their parents have helped them develop and whatever else
they've gleaned from other sources. The development of the tools
should start early, I think. Knowledge is power. Too much knowledge
can be abusive. Telling children EVERYTHING robs them of some of
the peace of childhood. Telling them nothing is also wrong. Balance
and compassion and mindfulness are the only way to figure it out for
the particular child. Watch your child, listen to your child, don't
be too paranoid or too naive either one.>>
Yes, I like that. I am finding that Sorscha's conversation with me
about a week ago about not wanting me to kiss her without her
permission sparked a wonderful conversation about her personal
rights, her body, and her choices. I think we are on the right track
in our communication.
~Crystal~
her life.>>
Well put, but I am very careful to keep my 'junk' out of her life and
that is why I am asking this question here.
<<Well that seems unfair. If she were likely to initiate sexual
behaviors with another child, would it really matter to you if that
child were younger, her age or older? If it's inappropriate, it's
inappropriate.>>
If two teens around the same age are sexual and decide to explore...I
do not have a problem with that or see it as inappropriate. They are
equals, equal sexuality, equal age, etc. There might be some
inequalities but they are mostly equal. What I am asking is if my
feelings of difference in age and experience are valid.
<<Little boys shouldn't sticking ANY parts of themselves (finger or
anything else) inside any parts of little girls, , whether those
girls are younger, same aged or older. Little girls shouldn't be
inviting that play, either. So if the only question is age, I don't
think that should matter.>>
Straight talk that I appreciate.
<<After both kids are in or through puberty, they should have enough
clues to know what the real dangers are, and parents can't protect
them from everything forever (nor should they even want to).>>
YES, that is why Sorscha and I talk a lot. That is why I want to get
my feelings straight.
<<Once they're out on their own away from adults, they'll have the
tools their parents have helped them develop and whatever else
they've gleaned from other sources. The development of the tools
should start early, I think. Knowledge is power. Too much knowledge
can be abusive. Telling children EVERYTHING robs them of some of
the peace of childhood. Telling them nothing is also wrong. Balance
and compassion and mindfulness are the only way to figure it out for
the particular child. Watch your child, listen to your child, don't
be too paranoid or too naive either one.>>
Yes, I like that. I am finding that Sorscha's conversation with me
about a week ago about not wanting me to kiss her without her
permission sparked a wonderful conversation about her personal
rights, her body, and her choices. I think we are on the right track
in our communication.
~Crystal~
magenta_mum
--- In [email protected], "sorschasmom"
<willowsfortress@...> wrote:
average, four years is quite a big gap that can make for substantial
differences in experience (including knowledge and awareness of self
and others and capabilities in all sorts of ways) throughout
childhood, through all the years of growth and development. Which is
why I took a questioning approach to the hypothetical, because in some
ways my level of discomfort might depend on the children involved and
what they knew and recognised about themselves and each other.
difference between a more platonic kind of lip-smacking kiss and what
we here downunder sometimes call pashing, where kissing gets to be
about tongues, maybe, and arousal and can carry people of all ages
into deeper water - though chances are the average 9-10yr wont be
*there* yet and neither should an older child be going there with one
so much younger, same as a 7yr old who can swim probably shouldn't
assume a 3yr can swim and push or even just take them in the deep end
of a swimming pool. That would be beyond disrespectful, to silly,
potentially frightening and dangerous, I think. Which is, again, where
I want to know that each child has some awareness of what might be the
other child's experience. And I mean child and children generally
there, not only your child and other specific children your own
particular child knows.
aware of where they're at, as you clearly are and taking the broader
culture into consideration, including your own experience within that
context. To be quite direct, I do think your feelings are appropriate,
they're valid not only because you felt them but for reasons that
apply to human development, even without cultural influences. 9-10 yr
old bodies and minds aren't ready for reproduction, which is one of
the places sexual activity goes, nor, I suggest, is the average 13-14
yr old ready for all the feelings and consequences that can result
from sexual activity, particularly within the culture, though these
things can and do happen to many young people, even though they might
be avoided with good info., awareness... education. And maybe because
of what you've learned through RUing you're exploring those feelings
and thoughts rather than reacting, which is all good.
Rather than imagining Sorscha being taken advantage of, perhaps there
are some other words that might work better... Disrespected, maybe.
I'm deliberately not leaping to a more imflammatory word like
violated, because that has not happened, and may not be the case, even
in the hypothetical. You're concerned, and appropriately so, that
Sorscha might be disrespected, same as you might feel if someone who
was into calculus right now decided she needed to do calculus with
them, right now, even though she was neither that interested nor ready.
Is any of that more helpful, odd analogies and all? I kind of hope in
using far less charged analogies, to take some of the repressiveness
and fear around sex as a topic away from it. Not that I think you're
being repressive and fearful, Crystal. I get that you've been doing
what you could to make that clear.
There are, of course, legalities which I haven't touched because I
don't feel they're relevant to the feelings and thoughts we have
around sex and burgeoning, or not, sexuality and young people in this
conversation.
Jo R
<willowsfortress@...> wrote:
>sexual) should as a RUing parent I be concerned / upset, etc.?
> Here is my question:
> If a non-sexual 9-year-old Sorscha were in a situation with a child
> who was 13 or 14 who was sexual (again, the sexual is not a concern
> of mine, it is the difference in the age range and then being
>Much as I don't necessarily like to use words like developmental and
average, four years is quite a big gap that can make for substantial
differences in experience (including knowledge and awareness of self
and others and capabilities in all sorts of ways) throughout
childhood, through all the years of growth and development. Which is
why I took a questioning approach to the hypothetical, because in some
ways my level of discomfort might depend on the children involved and
what they knew and recognised about themselves and each other.
> If I truly trust Sorscha to make decisions for her self then shouldI be okay if she were to make a decision to kiss this older child?
>In the truth and dare situation, or just playing, there's a big
difference between a more platonic kind of lip-smacking kiss and what
we here downunder sometimes call pashing, where kissing gets to be
about tongues, maybe, and arousal and can carry people of all ages
into deeper water - though chances are the average 9-10yr wont be
*there* yet and neither should an older child be going there with one
so much younger, same as a 7yr old who can swim probably shouldn't
assume a 3yr can swim and push or even just take them in the deep end
of a swimming pool. That would be beyond disrespectful, to silly,
potentially frightening and dangerous, I think. Which is, again, where
I want to know that each child has some awareness of what might be the
other child's experience. And I mean child and children generally
there, not only your child and other specific children your own
particular child knows.
>I don't think there's anything junky about knowing your child, being
> I am feeling like I would have a problem with it and I am truly trying
> to figure out if my feelings are appropriate. My first reaction
> would be to feel like Sorscha was being taken advantage of, however,
> I am feeling like by feeling that way that I am possibly placing
> my `junk' onto the situation.
>
aware of where they're at, as you clearly are and taking the broader
culture into consideration, including your own experience within that
context. To be quite direct, I do think your feelings are appropriate,
they're valid not only because you felt them but for reasons that
apply to human development, even without cultural influences. 9-10 yr
old bodies and minds aren't ready for reproduction, which is one of
the places sexual activity goes, nor, I suggest, is the average 13-14
yr old ready for all the feelings and consequences that can result
from sexual activity, particularly within the culture, though these
things can and do happen to many young people, even though they might
be avoided with good info., awareness... education. And maybe because
of what you've learned through RUing you're exploring those feelings
and thoughts rather than reacting, which is all good.
Rather than imagining Sorscha being taken advantage of, perhaps there
are some other words that might work better... Disrespected, maybe.
I'm deliberately not leaping to a more imflammatory word like
violated, because that has not happened, and may not be the case, even
in the hypothetical. You're concerned, and appropriately so, that
Sorscha might be disrespected, same as you might feel if someone who
was into calculus right now decided she needed to do calculus with
them, right now, even though she was neither that interested nor ready.
Is any of that more helpful, odd analogies and all? I kind of hope in
using far less charged analogies, to take some of the repressiveness
and fear around sex as a topic away from it. Not that I think you're
being repressive and fearful, Crystal. I get that you've been doing
what you could to make that clear.
There are, of course, legalities which I haven't touched because I
don't feel they're relevant to the feelings and thoughts we have
around sex and burgeoning, or not, sexuality and young people in this
conversation.
Jo R
magenta_mum
> --- In [email protected], "sorschasmom"should I be okay if she were to make a decision to kiss this older
> <willowsfortress@> wrote:
> > If I truly trust Sorscha to make decisions for her self then
child?
> >I wonder if you still feel like I haven't answered your question.
Unless there's some immediate question relating to a slightly older
boy who is angling to spend time alone with your daughter, then I
suggest stepping back and shaking it off a bit. There's the potential
for you to start sounding like one of those "so, heroin's okay with
you then?!".
Hope that doesn't feel like a slap in the face. If it does, deep
breathing would probably be useful right now. Or, harder for me to
say, I wonder if you do have some 'junk' that's making it hard for you
to get clear, that's causing you to push at this a bit... if it's more
about you than your daughter. Please know I say that with the warmest
heart, that you needn't reply with specificity, and that if you do I
hope you wont yell at me...
Trepidatiously yours
Jo R