Sex, Age, and Mama's Feelings
Crystal Miller
Perfect connections!!!! I'm glad this is coming up because there was a situation the other day where three kiddos where in the closet playing Truth or Dare. Sorscha was not one of them but this situation has got me thinking for several days now.
The kids were kissing. It did not concern / bother (not sure if either of those words is what I am feeling but the best choice I can come up with because Sorscha wants me to come play) that the two 6-year-olds (1 boy /1 girl) were experimenting. What concerned (again lack of a better word because I'm typing quickly) me was that one of the children was 10 (boy) and the parent describes him as very sexual (which does not bother me) but with two 6-year-olds it does. Why does this bother me? Should it?
Again, Sorscha was not involved but it has got me thinking about how I would feel if it had been Sorscha (age 9) with someone who was 13 or 14. I'm feeling like I would be very uncomfortable with a very sexual child who was older (at this stage in life) kissing Sorscha. It seems inappropriate to me and I'm not sure if I am just conjuring up feelings from my childhood or if this is a legitimate concern. I'd rather face the emotions I'm having now even though this might never happen. Sorscha is not sexual at all. She does not think anything of boys or girls as other than friends. She has never said, "Hey so and so's hot." As she is getting older, more and more boys are falling for her and she is completely oblivious. Currently there are four boys who are enamored with my booger faced, rats-nest hair, up until Thursday food filled braces daughter. Heehee.
Sorscha and I are very open with our 'sex talk'. In fact, she told me the other day that she did not want me to kiss her without her permission. I told her she had every right to decide whom she wanted to kiss her or not. Therefore, I think that if a situation like this came about that I have complete faith in her to make a reasonable decision for her self. But then I'm having those mommy feelings that a child that much older and who is 'highly sexual' would be taking advantage of a smaller child. Then I had another very traditional parenting friend say to me, "Well, if she has complete freedom over her own body, are you okay if she wanted to have sex?" Sooo, this whole situation has sparked a beautiful avalanche of thoughts in my head. I do not want to project any of my 'junk' onto Sorscha so I think that it is great that this situation came up because it has really got me thinking and hopefully I can organize my thoughts and feelings for the 'maybe' or 'maybe not' future.
Looking forward to your ponderings based on being RUers.
Seriously need to go play!
~Crystal~
PS: And yes Diana...I'll be at your talk. I did not realize I had any issue with this until now. Guess I'm always learning. Heehee.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The kids were kissing. It did not concern / bother (not sure if either of those words is what I am feeling but the best choice I can come up with because Sorscha wants me to come play) that the two 6-year-olds (1 boy /1 girl) were experimenting. What concerned (again lack of a better word because I'm typing quickly) me was that one of the children was 10 (boy) and the parent describes him as very sexual (which does not bother me) but with two 6-year-olds it does. Why does this bother me? Should it?
Again, Sorscha was not involved but it has got me thinking about how I would feel if it had been Sorscha (age 9) with someone who was 13 or 14. I'm feeling like I would be very uncomfortable with a very sexual child who was older (at this stage in life) kissing Sorscha. It seems inappropriate to me and I'm not sure if I am just conjuring up feelings from my childhood or if this is a legitimate concern. I'd rather face the emotions I'm having now even though this might never happen. Sorscha is not sexual at all. She does not think anything of boys or girls as other than friends. She has never said, "Hey so and so's hot." As she is getting older, more and more boys are falling for her and she is completely oblivious. Currently there are four boys who are enamored with my booger faced, rats-nest hair, up until Thursday food filled braces daughter. Heehee.
Sorscha and I are very open with our 'sex talk'. In fact, she told me the other day that she did not want me to kiss her without her permission. I told her she had every right to decide whom she wanted to kiss her or not. Therefore, I think that if a situation like this came about that I have complete faith in her to make a reasonable decision for her self. But then I'm having those mommy feelings that a child that much older and who is 'highly sexual' would be taking advantage of a smaller child. Then I had another very traditional parenting friend say to me, "Well, if she has complete freedom over her own body, are you okay if she wanted to have sex?" Sooo, this whole situation has sparked a beautiful avalanche of thoughts in my head. I do not want to project any of my 'junk' onto Sorscha so I think that it is great that this situation came up because it has really got me thinking and hopefully I can organize my thoughts and feelings for the 'maybe' or 'maybe not' future.
Looking forward to your ponderings based on being RUers.
Seriously need to go play!
~Crystal~
PS: And yes Diana...I'll be at your talk. I did not realize I had any issue with this until now. Guess I'm always learning. Heehee.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Then I had another very traditional parenting friend say to me,
"Well, if she has complete freedom over her own body, are you okay if
she wanted to have sex?"-=-
I just despise those snarky question.
"So if it's okay for your child to have a Twinkie, is it okay for him
to shoot heroin?"
Uh... Well, for one thing, my kids CAN have Twinkies but I've never
known one to buy a Twinkie or to ask for one . Yet they've had them,
when others bought them, and didn't say "WOW! These are great!"
And...
I'm thinking that if some decent random sample of heroin users
(current or former) were polled about whether their mother said it
was okay, or whether they ASKED their moms, the restults would do no
harm to the theories behind unschooling. <g>
How many teenaged girls ask their moms if it's okay to have sex!?
I wouldn't (and never did) encourage young kids to play kissing
games. Neither did I make any big deal when Holly was 12 or 13 and
had played truth or dare a couple of times.
If moms are nervous, and can react calmly and verbally, how cool for
the kids!
And if kids feel informed and empowered, how cool for them (and their
moms).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Well, if she has complete freedom over her own body, are you okay if
she wanted to have sex?"-=-
I just despise those snarky question.
"So if it's okay for your child to have a Twinkie, is it okay for him
to shoot heroin?"
Uh... Well, for one thing, my kids CAN have Twinkies but I've never
known one to buy a Twinkie or to ask for one . Yet they've had them,
when others bought them, and didn't say "WOW! These are great!"
And...
I'm thinking that if some decent random sample of heroin users
(current or former) were polled about whether their mother said it
was okay, or whether they ASKED their moms, the restults would do no
harm to the theories behind unschooling. <g>
How many teenaged girls ask their moms if it's okay to have sex!?
I wouldn't (and never did) encourage young kids to play kissing
games. Neither did I make any big deal when Holly was 12 or 13 and
had played truth or dare a couple of times.
If moms are nervous, and can react calmly and verbally, how cool for
the kids!
And if kids feel informed and empowered, how cool for them (and their
moms).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
magenta_mum
I just went and read the pages that Sandra left in the cyber-bathroom
the other day, so that I don't double up here. Since many of us wont
get to the Fireside Chat, what with living in far away places and
such, I thought I'd mention a few things round this topic as it has
been and is talked about in our house. I'm happy to be critiqued and
open to be told "too much for the list!" as well, though I don't
believe what I say will be in that territory. Depending on the
individual levels of comfort readers here have around sex(uality) and
learning, I could come off anywhere between a big vanilla prude or in
need of a whole lot of saving. I think I'm pretty middle of the road
really, and I hope, sensible and sensitive about sex and
children/younger people.
Also, I hope this post doesn't take days to come through and become
redundant because of that, seeing as a lot of yahoo! group mail is
lost in space right now... one post I sent a couple of days ago is
still missing.
Firstly, Crystal, I think that if someone let me know their child was
very sexual, I think I'd like to know that their child was aware that
not all other children or young people of varying ages are necessarily
likewise. I was trying to think how I would broach the conversation if
I'd decided I'd like more information from the parent(s), like the
level of awareness/knowledge their child had around others' sexuality
or lack there of, and around consent. How to set about that
conversation if I'd decided it might be wise and possible to have it,
would depend on how well I knew the family and what I knew about the
way they relate in their family whether mainstream, RU or whatever.
It is possible that a family who seems RU in many ways might not have
gone so far as to talk about being respectful of the bodily autonomy
of other children when it comes to sexual things. They might not do
that for numbers of reasons.
Two I can think of are: not thinking further than "all children
play/experiment some" or, with the intention of not shaming their own
child, because they don't know how or aren't comfortable talking about
consent in matter of fact ways, even around the games that children
might play that seem low key, like truth or dare, for instance. Even
that can have elements of coercion, I would think, just because it is
what it is.
In discussing this with another parent, especially one who'd let me
know their child was very sexual, I'd do my best to reassure them that
I had no intention to shame them or their child, only to be matter of
fact (with the probably unspoken goal of ascertaining that my child
would be safe, or finding out what my child might need to know in
order to be/feel/remain safe).
In any case, I decide long ago that I would like for my own child to
be as clued up as it is possible and comfortable for her to be, so
that she not only knows herself (and what all else there is) well but
is able to also be respectful of others. I've been open and
informative in the ways it is possible to be gradually through the
years. Talking about different aspects of sex and sexuality as they
came/come up, often presented on our television screen. In fact,
everthing I talk about from this point all is about sex in the media,
so I do want to say that conversations and information giving and
requesting have happened in other ways - just so as people will know
for sure that my child's sex ed hasn't all happened via tv and movies.
For example, watching Four Weddings and a Funeral years ago with K,
when the scene where Hugh Grant's character ends up hiding in a
cupboard while a newly wed bride and groom are... going at it like
bunnies... it's just plain bonking (euphamisms can be fun and
interesting to talk about too sometimes), I said what popped into my
head, which was something like, that sex doesn't always, or even ever
have to look like that.
There've been multitudes of images of sex we've seen together.
Everthing from Marge and Homer Simpson rockin' the casbah, through
CSI's furries and all sorts in between and far out, with explanations
given by me when asked, and sometimes also proferred unasked in a
conversational way that is comfortable to us. That mutual level of
comfort grows from the little beginnings.
K, now 13 and not yet sexually active, has a clearly defined sense of
what is sex she can comfortably watch and what is sex she will turn
her head from. The latter is mostly where it looks a little or a lot
like something you see on one of the Crime shows (which she chooses
not to watch any longer, having checked them out to her satisfaction),
where usually plastic looking people are clearly performing and often
kind of violently.
Images she will comfortably watch, are those that look like real
people in real relationships that don't have that patina, that
"glamour" of performance being wrought (when the actual
people/characters most often seem on some level dissociated from what
they're doing), nor an overlay of scariness nevermind downright danger
and violation.
I think that's a pretty healthy place for her to be at right now.
Parody, of the bodice or pant ripping variety, whether overt like in
an old movie called Yellowbeard the Pirate (rip-roaring, UK, Pythonish
cast), or less obvious like in American Beauty (the mother as realtor
in one scene in a home she's trying to sell, which K read as parody)
do not make her uncomfortable, because that's all just downright funny
to her.
Jo R
the other day, so that I don't double up here. Since many of us wont
get to the Fireside Chat, what with living in far away places and
such, I thought I'd mention a few things round this topic as it has
been and is talked about in our house. I'm happy to be critiqued and
open to be told "too much for the list!" as well, though I don't
believe what I say will be in that territory. Depending on the
individual levels of comfort readers here have around sex(uality) and
learning, I could come off anywhere between a big vanilla prude or in
need of a whole lot of saving. I think I'm pretty middle of the road
really, and I hope, sensible and sensitive about sex and
children/younger people.
Also, I hope this post doesn't take days to come through and become
redundant because of that, seeing as a lot of yahoo! group mail is
lost in space right now... one post I sent a couple of days ago is
still missing.
Firstly, Crystal, I think that if someone let me know their child was
very sexual, I think I'd like to know that their child was aware that
not all other children or young people of varying ages are necessarily
likewise. I was trying to think how I would broach the conversation if
I'd decided I'd like more information from the parent(s), like the
level of awareness/knowledge their child had around others' sexuality
or lack there of, and around consent. How to set about that
conversation if I'd decided it might be wise and possible to have it,
would depend on how well I knew the family and what I knew about the
way they relate in their family whether mainstream, RU or whatever.
It is possible that a family who seems RU in many ways might not have
gone so far as to talk about being respectful of the bodily autonomy
of other children when it comes to sexual things. They might not do
that for numbers of reasons.
Two I can think of are: not thinking further than "all children
play/experiment some" or, with the intention of not shaming their own
child, because they don't know how or aren't comfortable talking about
consent in matter of fact ways, even around the games that children
might play that seem low key, like truth or dare, for instance. Even
that can have elements of coercion, I would think, just because it is
what it is.
In discussing this with another parent, especially one who'd let me
know their child was very sexual, I'd do my best to reassure them that
I had no intention to shame them or their child, only to be matter of
fact (with the probably unspoken goal of ascertaining that my child
would be safe, or finding out what my child might need to know in
order to be/feel/remain safe).
In any case, I decide long ago that I would like for my own child to
be as clued up as it is possible and comfortable for her to be, so
that she not only knows herself (and what all else there is) well but
is able to also be respectful of others. I've been open and
informative in the ways it is possible to be gradually through the
years. Talking about different aspects of sex and sexuality as they
came/come up, often presented on our television screen. In fact,
everthing I talk about from this point all is about sex in the media,
so I do want to say that conversations and information giving and
requesting have happened in other ways - just so as people will know
for sure that my child's sex ed hasn't all happened via tv and movies.
For example, watching Four Weddings and a Funeral years ago with K,
when the scene where Hugh Grant's character ends up hiding in a
cupboard while a newly wed bride and groom are... going at it like
bunnies... it's just plain bonking (euphamisms can be fun and
interesting to talk about too sometimes), I said what popped into my
head, which was something like, that sex doesn't always, or even ever
have to look like that.
There've been multitudes of images of sex we've seen together.
Everthing from Marge and Homer Simpson rockin' the casbah, through
CSI's furries and all sorts in between and far out, with explanations
given by me when asked, and sometimes also proferred unasked in a
conversational way that is comfortable to us. That mutual level of
comfort grows from the little beginnings.
K, now 13 and not yet sexually active, has a clearly defined sense of
what is sex she can comfortably watch and what is sex she will turn
her head from. The latter is mostly where it looks a little or a lot
like something you see on one of the Crime shows (which she chooses
not to watch any longer, having checked them out to her satisfaction),
where usually plastic looking people are clearly performing and often
kind of violently.
Images she will comfortably watch, are those that look like real
people in real relationships that don't have that patina, that
"glamour" of performance being wrought (when the actual
people/characters most often seem on some level dissociated from what
they're doing), nor an overlay of scariness nevermind downright danger
and violation.
I think that's a pretty healthy place for her to be at right now.
Parody, of the bodice or pant ripping variety, whether overt like in
an old movie called Yellowbeard the Pirate (rip-roaring, UK, Pythonish
cast), or less obvious like in American Beauty (the mother as realtor
in one scene in a home she's trying to sell, which K read as parody)
do not make her uncomfortable, because that's all just downright funny
to her.
Jo R
Gold Standard
>>What concerned (again lack of a better word because I'm typing quickly) mewas that one of the children was 10 (boy) and
>>the parent describes him as very sexual (which does not bother me) butwith two 6-year-olds it does. Why does this bother >>me? Should it?<<
Is this child unschooled? How well do you know the family and the child's
living situation?
In my experience it is somewhat unusual for children to be "very sexual" at
age 10...at least in the way that comes to mind for me when I think of
sexual. One symptom of sexual abuse can be an over interest in, and activity
with, sex. Obviously, there isn't any information here for us to make
determinations, but if my child was in that situation, I would be very
watchful...not shameful of course, like you said, but I wouldn't leave kids
alone in a closet with those dynamics known.
I've worked with many sexually abused children over the years, and though
I'm not saying that is what is going on here, I do think it is something to
watch.
Jacki
Randi
Are you just trying to get clear on what your personal feelings are on
this situation? You aren't actually passing judgment on this without
getting all the facts are you? I think that if you are having personal
feelings about what went on then maybe a conversation needs to be had
with the parents. You never know what they actually know about their
children, or what they have talked to them about. In essence it could
help clear up some of those feelings. Unless you were just wanting to
vent about the sex situation then all is null and void.
That being said I want to say that a lot of conclusions are being made
here without all of the facts. So I hope that some level of respect
will be maintained. Saying that someones else's children are very
sexual or possibly suffer from sexual abuse is voicing some pretty
strong opinions. Are these judgments we would want someone to make
about our kids with out actually talking to the parents? I notice that
while reading all that is being said I am wishing that a conversation
would have been had before this as I do not think this is the big deal
that is being made of it. That is just my feeling and opinion.
However, if you are just getting clear on your feelings and your
personal parent stuff then this too is null and void.
--- In [email protected], "Crystal Miller"
<willowsfortress@...> wrote:
playing Truth or Dare. Sorscha was not one of them but this situation
has got me thinking for several days now.
come up with because Sorscha wants me to come play) that the two
6-year-olds (1 boy /1 girl) were experimenting. What concerned (again
lack of a better word because I'm typing quickly) me was that one of
the children was 10 (boy) and the parent describes him as very sexual
(which does not bother me) but with two 6-year-olds it does. Why
does this bother me? Should it?
14. I'm feeling like I would be very uncomfortable with a very sexual
child who was older (at this stage in life) kissing Sorscha. It seems
inappropriate to me and I'm not sure if I am just conjuring up
feelings from my childhood or if this is a legitimate concern. I'd
rather face the emotions I'm having now even though this might never
happen. Sorscha is not sexual at all. She does not think anything of
boys or girls as other than friends. She has never said, "Hey so and
so's hot." As she is getting older, more and more boys are falling
for her and she is completely oblivious. Currently there are four
boys who are enamored with my booger faced, rats-nest hair, up until
Thursday food filled braces daughter. Heehee.
permission. I told her she had every right to decide whom she wanted
to kiss her or not. Therefore, I think that if a situation like this
came about that I have complete faith in her to make a reasonable
decision for her self. But then I'm having those mommy feelings that
a child that much older and who is 'highly sexual' would be taking
advantage of a smaller child. Then I had another very traditional
parenting friend say to me, "Well, if she has complete freedom over
her own body, are you okay if she wanted to have sex?" Sooo, this
whole situation has sparked a beautiful avalanche of thoughts in my
head. I do not want to project any of my 'junk' onto Sorscha so I
think that it is great that this situation came up because it has
really got me thinking and hopefully I can organize my thoughts and
feelings for the 'maybe' or 'maybe not' future.
this situation? You aren't actually passing judgment on this without
getting all the facts are you? I think that if you are having personal
feelings about what went on then maybe a conversation needs to be had
with the parents. You never know what they actually know about their
children, or what they have talked to them about. In essence it could
help clear up some of those feelings. Unless you were just wanting to
vent about the sex situation then all is null and void.
That being said I want to say that a lot of conclusions are being made
here without all of the facts. So I hope that some level of respect
will be maintained. Saying that someones else's children are very
sexual or possibly suffer from sexual abuse is voicing some pretty
strong opinions. Are these judgments we would want someone to make
about our kids with out actually talking to the parents? I notice that
while reading all that is being said I am wishing that a conversation
would have been had before this as I do not think this is the big deal
that is being made of it. That is just my feeling and opinion.
However, if you are just getting clear on your feelings and your
personal parent stuff then this too is null and void.
--- In [email protected], "Crystal Miller"
<willowsfortress@...> wrote:
>was a situation the other day where three kiddos where in the closet
> Perfect connections!!!! I'm glad this is coming up because there
playing Truth or Dare. Sorscha was not one of them but this situation
has got me thinking for several days now.
>either of those words is what I am feeling but the best choice I can
>
> The kids were kissing. It did not concern / bother (not sure if
come up with because Sorscha wants me to come play) that the two
6-year-olds (1 boy /1 girl) were experimenting. What concerned (again
lack of a better word because I'm typing quickly) me was that one of
the children was 10 (boy) and the parent describes him as very sexual
(which does not bother me) but with two 6-year-olds it does. Why
does this bother me? Should it?
>I would feel if it had been Sorscha (age 9) with someone who was 13 or
>
>
> Again, Sorscha was not involved but it has got me thinking about how
14. I'm feeling like I would be very uncomfortable with a very sexual
child who was older (at this stage in life) kissing Sorscha. It seems
inappropriate to me and I'm not sure if I am just conjuring up
feelings from my childhood or if this is a legitimate concern. I'd
rather face the emotions I'm having now even though this might never
happen. Sorscha is not sexual at all. She does not think anything of
boys or girls as other than friends. She has never said, "Hey so and
so's hot." As she is getting older, more and more boys are falling
for her and she is completely oblivious. Currently there are four
boys who are enamored with my booger faced, rats-nest hair, up until
Thursday food filled braces daughter. Heehee.
>me the other day that she did not want me to kiss her without her
>
>
> Sorscha and I are very open with our 'sex talk'. In fact, she told
permission. I told her she had every right to decide whom she wanted
to kiss her or not. Therefore, I think that if a situation like this
came about that I have complete faith in her to make a reasonable
decision for her self. But then I'm having those mommy feelings that
a child that much older and who is 'highly sexual' would be taking
advantage of a smaller child. Then I had another very traditional
parenting friend say to me, "Well, if she has complete freedom over
her own body, are you okay if she wanted to have sex?" Sooo, this
whole situation has sparked a beautiful avalanche of thoughts in my
head. I do not want to project any of my 'junk' onto Sorscha so I
think that it is great that this situation came up because it has
really got me thinking and hopefully I can organize my thoughts and
feelings for the 'maybe' or 'maybe not' future.
>any issue with this until now. Guess I'm always learning. Heehee.
>
>
> Looking forward to your ponderings based on being RUers.
>
> Seriously need to go play!
>
> ~Crystal~
>
>
>
> PS: And yes Diana...I'll be at your talk. I did not realize I had
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "magenta_mum" <magenta_mum@...>
wrote:
wrt sex and sexuality. Some kids experiment *because* they don't feel
comfortable talking with their parents or because their parents aren't
terribly informed outside of their own experience.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
wrote:
>> Firstly, Crystal, I think that if someone let me know their childwas
> very sexual, I think I'd like to know that their child was aware thatnecessarily
> not all other children or young people of varying ages are
> likewise. I was trying to think how I would broach the conversationif
> I'd decided I'd like more information from the parent(s), like theI'd be curious, too, as to just how "informed" the kid in question was
> level of awareness/knowledge their child had around others' sexuality
> or lack there of, and around consent.
wrt sex and sexuality. Some kids experiment *because* they don't feel
comfortable talking with their parents or because their parents aren't
terribly informed outside of their own experience.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Sandra Dodd
-=-Obviously, there isn't any information here for us to make
determinations, but if my child was in that situation, I would be very
watchful...not shameful of course, like you said, but I wouldn't
leave kids
alone in a closet with those dynamics known.-=-
I agree.
There have been a (very) few kids I've advised my kids not to be
alone with, or to be careful with, or not to make sex jokes with,
when I've known something or had reason to suspect.
It doesn't mean shun them for life, it means deal with them in other
kinds of ways while they all get older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
determinations, but if my child was in that situation, I would be very
watchful...not shameful of course, like you said, but I wouldn't
leave kids
alone in a closet with those dynamics known.-=-
I agree.
There have been a (very) few kids I've advised my kids not to be
alone with, or to be careful with, or not to make sex jokes with,
when I've known something or had reason to suspect.
It doesn't mean shun them for life, it means deal with them in other
kinds of ways while they all get older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Are you just trying to get clear on what your personal feelings
are on
this situation? -=-
Everyone is trying to get clearer on their personal feelings, aren't
they? All the time?
-=-You aren't actually passing judgment on this without getting all
the facts are you?-=-
No one has a right or a need to get "all the facts" about anyone
else's sexual situation. No one.
-=-Saying that someones else's children are very
sexual or possibly suffer from sexual abuse is voicing some pretty
strong opinions. -=-
Not it isn't.
ANYone else's child might be more sexual than mine and might possibly
have suffered from sexual abuse.
It won't hurt my kids a bit to know that some other kids might not
have the same calm or self control that mine have.
There are sometimes reasons that young teenaged girls want to have
sex with any boy who will do it. My boys were warned years ago that
some girls would rather be pregnant than not. Some girls would
welcome a reason to make their parents angry, or to move away (or get
thrown out).
That's matter of fact. I knew girls like that grown up, I've read
what some teenaged moms said about their feelings surrounding their
first pregnancy. I have a cousin who had four children by the time
she was 21, by four different fathers.
One of my husband's ex girlfriends told me once that her earliest
memory was of lying on her back in a treehouse, looking at the
trees, and the other boys taking turns on her. It wasn't a horrible
memory for her, just a matter-of-fact memory. Her ex husband just
found out in the past few months that his oldest daughter was not his
biological daughter. This came up when she needed a blood transfusion.
To pretend such situations aren't all around us isn't good or
healthy. To focus on them and make the whole world about them is
equally as unhealthy. Being realistic about dangerous situation, and
being cautious but not reactionary, is the best we can do for our
children. They will be out in a world with those things all around
them, and they need to know enough to protect themselves from abuse
or entanglement while still knowing they can be friends with such
people and have relationships with them that don't involve sexuality.
I am NOT fishing for responses or confessions here, but there are
people who will read this who were abused as children, or raped, or
who have had abortions, or given a secret baby up for adoption under
duress and pressure and live with a deep sorrow. There are people
here who might be married to people who were sexually abused in small
or large ways, and that might affect their sexual behavior and
attitude even if they don't have clear memories of what happened.
Everyone's experience is different, and secrecy and covering and
ignoring can be partly healthy and partly UNhealthy. We should not
tell children everything we know and we shouldn't refuse to tell them
anything at all. They need some information, and what and how much
they need depends on the situations they're coming into and the
stages they're growing through.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
are on
this situation? -=-
Everyone is trying to get clearer on their personal feelings, aren't
they? All the time?
-=-You aren't actually passing judgment on this without getting all
the facts are you?-=-
No one has a right or a need to get "all the facts" about anyone
else's sexual situation. No one.
-=-Saying that someones else's children are very
sexual or possibly suffer from sexual abuse is voicing some pretty
strong opinions. -=-
Not it isn't.
ANYone else's child might be more sexual than mine and might possibly
have suffered from sexual abuse.
It won't hurt my kids a bit to know that some other kids might not
have the same calm or self control that mine have.
There are sometimes reasons that young teenaged girls want to have
sex with any boy who will do it. My boys were warned years ago that
some girls would rather be pregnant than not. Some girls would
welcome a reason to make their parents angry, or to move away (or get
thrown out).
That's matter of fact. I knew girls like that grown up, I've read
what some teenaged moms said about their feelings surrounding their
first pregnancy. I have a cousin who had four children by the time
she was 21, by four different fathers.
One of my husband's ex girlfriends told me once that her earliest
memory was of lying on her back in a treehouse, looking at the
trees, and the other boys taking turns on her. It wasn't a horrible
memory for her, just a matter-of-fact memory. Her ex husband just
found out in the past few months that his oldest daughter was not his
biological daughter. This came up when she needed a blood transfusion.
To pretend such situations aren't all around us isn't good or
healthy. To focus on them and make the whole world about them is
equally as unhealthy. Being realistic about dangerous situation, and
being cautious but not reactionary, is the best we can do for our
children. They will be out in a world with those things all around
them, and they need to know enough to protect themselves from abuse
or entanglement while still knowing they can be friends with such
people and have relationships with them that don't involve sexuality.
I am NOT fishing for responses or confessions here, but there are
people who will read this who were abused as children, or raped, or
who have had abortions, or given a secret baby up for adoption under
duress and pressure and live with a deep sorrow. There are people
here who might be married to people who were sexually abused in small
or large ways, and that might affect their sexual behavior and
attitude even if they don't have clear memories of what happened.
Everyone's experience is different, and secrecy and covering and
ignoring can be partly healthy and partly UNhealthy. We should not
tell children everything we know and we shouldn't refuse to tell them
anything at all. They need some information, and what and how much
they need depends on the situations they're coming into and the
stages they're growing through.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that if you are having personal
feelings about what went on then maybe a conversation needs to be had
with the parents. You never know what they actually know about their
children, or what they have talked to them about. In essence it could
help clear up some of those feelings. -=-
No.
A conversation does not NEED to be held with the parents.
The situation as described was that the parent was the one who said
the child was sexual. Leave it there. Information was offered which
other parents can use.
If a parent uses that to suggest to a child that she not voluntarily
be closed in a dark closet with the child, that's fine.
-=-You never know what they actually know about their
children-=-
That's true of anyone, and some things are not other people's
business, really. And some parents who might think they know
everything about their child don't.
-=-You never know what they actually know about their
children, or what they have talked to them about. In essence it could
help clear up some of those feelings. -=-
Or it could screw up relationships all kinds of ways.
It sounds really nosy and pushy to me. If I warn Holly about a
particular boy because of things I know from other sources, I don't
have to prove or cite. I just say "Be careful; be aware."
-=-Are these judgments we would want someone to make
about our kids with out actually talking to the parents? -=-
If Marty is acting in such a way that a girl's parents believe him to
be a sexually dangerous kid, why should they talk to me? They should
warn their daughter, advise her, not leave them alone. (Marty and
Kirby both have been reported to be very gentlemanly, by girls and
their parents, so I'm using him as an excuse knowing it is NOT a
current situation.)
People will and do "make judgments" about my children. That's part
of life. I have and will advise my children in ways that optimize
the liklihood that other people's judgments about them will be
favorable.
-=I notice that
while reading all that is being said I am wishing that a conversation
would have been had before this as I do not think this is the big deal
that is being made of it. That is just my feeling and opinion. -=-
No one's making a big deal. It's e-mail. It's a discussion list.
We're going to discuss things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feelings about what went on then maybe a conversation needs to be had
with the parents. You never know what they actually know about their
children, or what they have talked to them about. In essence it could
help clear up some of those feelings. -=-
No.
A conversation does not NEED to be held with the parents.
The situation as described was that the parent was the one who said
the child was sexual. Leave it there. Information was offered which
other parents can use.
If a parent uses that to suggest to a child that she not voluntarily
be closed in a dark closet with the child, that's fine.
-=-You never know what they actually know about their
children-=-
That's true of anyone, and some things are not other people's
business, really. And some parents who might think they know
everything about their child don't.
-=-You never know what they actually know about their
children, or what they have talked to them about. In essence it could
help clear up some of those feelings. -=-
Or it could screw up relationships all kinds of ways.
It sounds really nosy and pushy to me. If I warn Holly about a
particular boy because of things I know from other sources, I don't
have to prove or cite. I just say "Be careful; be aware."
-=-Are these judgments we would want someone to make
about our kids with out actually talking to the parents? -=-
If Marty is acting in such a way that a girl's parents believe him to
be a sexually dangerous kid, why should they talk to me? They should
warn their daughter, advise her, not leave them alone. (Marty and
Kirby both have been reported to be very gentlemanly, by girls and
their parents, so I'm using him as an excuse knowing it is NOT a
current situation.)
People will and do "make judgments" about my children. That's part
of life. I have and will advise my children in ways that optimize
the liklihood that other people's judgments about them will be
favorable.
-=I notice that
while reading all that is being said I am wishing that a conversation
would have been had before this as I do not think this is the big deal
that is being made of it. That is just my feeling and opinion. -=-
No one's making a big deal. It's e-mail. It's a discussion list.
We're going to discuss things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorschasmom
<<Are you just trying to get clear on what your personal feelings are
on this situation?>>
Not the exact situation, it does not involve my family. However, the
situation is what sparked feelings within myself that I am
uncomfortable with that I would like to explore as a RUing parent.
<<You aren't actually passing judgment on this without getting all
the facts are you?>>
This question has nothing to do with the actual situation so there
can be no passing judgment. I think I made that clear in my original
post. The complete facts do not need to be stated and my original
post gives a simple version of what sparked my feelings that I would
like input on.
<<I think that if you are having personal feelings about what went on
then maybe a conversation needs to be had with the parents. You never
know what they actually know about their children, or what they have
talked to them about. In essence it could help clear up some of those
feelings. Unless you were just wanting to vent about the sex
situation then all is null and void.>>
Null and void my feelings are not about the particular children
involved so there is no need for me to have any conversations with
the parents. I do not have any concerns with the children involved.
I have concerns about my sparked feelings. It is not venting that I
am after but serious conversation with serious dialogue.
<<That being said I want to say that a lot of conclusions are being
made here without all of the facts.>>
I think that the original question swirled and moved around. That
seems to happen with RUers. I like when that happens but I would
like to explore my original question.
<< So I hope that some level of respect will be maintained. Saying
that someones else's children are very sexual or possibly suffer from
sexual abuse is voicing some pretty strong opinions.>>
For me, I do not jump to the `child is sexual so child was molested
and watch out'. I think that some people are just more sexual than
others are. To me it is kind of like saying that a child read early
so everyone jumps to conclusions that they were forced or pushed.
<<Are these judgments we would want someone to make about our kids
with out actually talking to the parents?>>
I do not think anyone is judging here. I am taking it as open
dialogue. This is a discussion list and that is why I posted my
feelings here so I could receive a ton of information that I could go
process. However, I do wish that the discussion would morph back to
the original question.
<< I notice that while reading all that is being said I am wishing
that a conversation would have been had before this as I do not
think this is the big deal that is being made of it. That is just my
feeling and opinion. >>
There was no need to have a discussion with anyone in the situation
because the situation was only a catalyst for my feelings. I am
exploring my feelings about RUing, parenting, and Sorscha. These
feelings have nothing to do with the families involved in the
original situation but have everything to do with my life with
Sorscha.
<<However, if you are just getting clear on your feelings and your
personal parent stuff then this too is null and void.>>
Null and void. I am exploring my feelings, my personal tapes, and
traditional society rhetoric. I was unaware that I was uncomfortable
with Sorscha kissing a child 4 years older.
~Crystal~
on this situation?>>
Not the exact situation, it does not involve my family. However, the
situation is what sparked feelings within myself that I am
uncomfortable with that I would like to explore as a RUing parent.
<<You aren't actually passing judgment on this without getting all
the facts are you?>>
This question has nothing to do with the actual situation so there
can be no passing judgment. I think I made that clear in my original
post. The complete facts do not need to be stated and my original
post gives a simple version of what sparked my feelings that I would
like input on.
<<I think that if you are having personal feelings about what went on
then maybe a conversation needs to be had with the parents. You never
know what they actually know about their children, or what they have
talked to them about. In essence it could help clear up some of those
feelings. Unless you were just wanting to vent about the sex
situation then all is null and void.>>
Null and void my feelings are not about the particular children
involved so there is no need for me to have any conversations with
the parents. I do not have any concerns with the children involved.
I have concerns about my sparked feelings. It is not venting that I
am after but serious conversation with serious dialogue.
<<That being said I want to say that a lot of conclusions are being
made here without all of the facts.>>
I think that the original question swirled and moved around. That
seems to happen with RUers. I like when that happens but I would
like to explore my original question.
<< So I hope that some level of respect will be maintained. Saying
that someones else's children are very sexual or possibly suffer from
sexual abuse is voicing some pretty strong opinions.>>
For me, I do not jump to the `child is sexual so child was molested
and watch out'. I think that some people are just more sexual than
others are. To me it is kind of like saying that a child read early
so everyone jumps to conclusions that they were forced or pushed.
<<Are these judgments we would want someone to make about our kids
with out actually talking to the parents?>>
I do not think anyone is judging here. I am taking it as open
dialogue. This is a discussion list and that is why I posted my
feelings here so I could receive a ton of information that I could go
process. However, I do wish that the discussion would morph back to
the original question.
<< I notice that while reading all that is being said I am wishing
that a conversation would have been had before this as I do not
think this is the big deal that is being made of it. That is just my
feeling and opinion. >>
There was no need to have a discussion with anyone in the situation
because the situation was only a catalyst for my feelings. I am
exploring my feelings about RUing, parenting, and Sorscha. These
feelings have nothing to do with the families involved in the
original situation but have everything to do with my life with
Sorscha.
<<However, if you are just getting clear on your feelings and your
personal parent stuff then this too is null and void.>>
Null and void. I am exploring my feelings, my personal tapes, and
traditional society rhetoric. I was unaware that I was uncomfortable
with Sorscha kissing a child 4 years older.
~Crystal~
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 28, 2007, at 7:44 AM, Randi wrote:
parents. Possibilities are being discussed and the individual who
brought it up (and anybody else with similar concerns) can do what
she wants with them, including ignoring those that are off base.
gearing up to take any drastic action, just pondering.
across to you, since your perspective seems skewed on this.
What really happened was that she said that the child's own parent
mentioned that the 10 yo child is sexual and she said that child and
some others, not her own, were playing kissing games in a closet, and
it got her to pondering the circumstances and how she felt about it,
etc.
involved.
When kids are overly sexual in ways that are not usual for their age,
it makes sense to point out that that can be a possible warning sign
that the child might have been abused.
The kid down the street from me, 11 years old when I was 10, tried to
get me to do sexual stuff with him, a few times. I was disturbed by
it and got away, but didn't tell anybody.
He's in prison for murder and rape.
I don't know if he did anything to any of the other girls on our
street or in our school.
A little warning, "You might want to be cautious about being alone
with Richard," would have been good - and it would have opened up the
conversation to allow kids to talk about anything that HAD happened
and maybe he'd have gotten help. Who knows? Just a possibility.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> That being said I want to say that a lot of conclusions are being madeNO conclusions are being made here about the particular kids or
> here without all of the facts.
parents. Possibilities are being discussed and the individual who
brought it up (and anybody else with similar concerns) can do what
she wants with them, including ignoring those that are off base.
> So I hope that some level of respectMaybe you're saying, "Don't panic?" <g> I'm pretty sure she wasn't
> will be maintained.
gearing up to take any drastic action, just pondering.
> Saying that someones else's children are veryNot really what happened. You might consider why this is how it came
> sexual or possibly suffer from sexual abuse is voicing some pretty
> strong opinions.
across to you, since your perspective seems skewed on this.
What really happened was that she said that the child's own parent
mentioned that the 10 yo child is sexual and she said that child and
some others, not her own, were playing kissing games in a closet, and
it got her to pondering the circumstances and how she felt about it,
etc.
> Are these judgments we would want someone to makeShe has no business talking to the parents - her child wasn't even
> about our kids with out actually talking to the parents?
involved.
When kids are overly sexual in ways that are not usual for their age,
it makes sense to point out that that can be a possible warning sign
that the child might have been abused.
The kid down the street from me, 11 years old when I was 10, tried to
get me to do sexual stuff with him, a few times. I was disturbed by
it and got away, but didn't tell anybody.
He's in prison for murder and rape.
I don't know if he did anything to any of the other girls on our
street or in our school.
A little warning, "You might want to be cautious about being alone
with Richard," would have been good - and it would have opened up the
conversation to allow kids to talk about anything that HAD happened
and maybe he'd have gotten help. Who knows? Just a possibility.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
see my nephews much, but I do know they aren't getting the kind of
information they should be getting about sex/sexual feelings, so I do
worry about them doing (or trying) inapropriate things with my
girls. So I try to arm my kids with the information they need if
something happens, or something is tried. Having these kinds of
conversations BEFORE something happens hopefully will make it easier
for them to come to me if something does happen.
And we're off away from the original question again. lol
Ria
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> A little warning, "You might want to be cautious about being alonethe
> with Richard," would have been good - and it would have opened up
> conversation to allow kids to talk about anything that HADhappened
> and maybe he'd have gotten help. Who knows? Just a possibility.This is what I've tried to do with my girls and my nephews. We don't
see my nephews much, but I do know they aren't getting the kind of
information they should be getting about sex/sexual feelings, so I do
worry about them doing (or trying) inapropriate things with my
girls. So I try to arm my kids with the information they need if
something happens, or something is tried. Having these kinds of
conversations BEFORE something happens hopefully will make it easier
for them to come to me if something does happen.
And we're off away from the original question again. lol
Ria
Sandra Dodd
-=And we're off away from the original question again. lol-=-
That's fine. When ideas spring from ideas, we can follow those
trails. That's the whole idea of unschooling and natural learning
and connections and strewing, honestly. We CAN'T be saying "stick to
the curriculum," can we? <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's fine. When ideas spring from ideas, we can follow those
trails. That's the whole idea of unschooling and natural learning
and connections and strewing, honestly. We CAN'T be saying "stick to
the curriculum," can we? <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]