"Proselytizing Unschooling"
Sandra Dodd
-=- I don't know that I share your zeal for proselytizing unschooling
although I do enjoy sharing and promoting unschooling and respectful
parenting.
-=-
Someone wrote this to me on the side.
"Proselytizing" doesn't sound at all like what I do to me. I don't
like to be interviewed because I don't trust the journalists to
understand well enough to describe unschooling accurately. I don't
go to regular homeschooling lists and say "You should unschool
instead." When the internet was in its awkward infancy and there
weren't pages or e-mail lists, just newsgroups, and all the
homeschoolers were lumped together in one group on *Prodigy, I
wouldn't say "Unschooling is GREAT!," but I would respond when others
said "If they're not made to read, they'll never read." I would say
"I know kids who are reading who weren't made to read," or whatever.
Proselytizing is going out to people who didn't want to know.
I'm staying in a place (my website, here, UnschoolingDiscussion list
on google) where people can find me. It's more like an office.
People can look for these discussions or those pages, and they can
come here, but I don't chase them down or invite them over with
billboards or flyers on doors.
When people are here, I assume they came to discuss unschooling in a
serious way. The fact that I prefer serious, honest discussions
might seem like "proselytizing." I see it as integrity and
consideration for not wasting people's time or energy.
On Unschooling Discussion someone posted this in response to another
mom who's new there (and hostile and resistant) (from line to line is
the quoted part):
===========================================
On this the list a while back I posted how I was late all the time
for my daughters ballets lessons ( and I know your daughter is in
similar lessons with RAD so maybe you can relate) and I ended up in
big fight with ballet teacher.
I came to the list for advice on how I could better handle the
situation which got ugle for other reasons. I think in part I
wanted to be validated- "oh what an awful teacher, how dare she
criticize you, blah blah blah." I don�t think I consciously wanted to
hear that. but in hindsight I think I wanted to be validated.
I know on several homeschool/unschool lists I would have gotten that-
"don't be so hard on yourself" , etc.
On this list- what makes it different- is that you don�t get away
with that kind of thinking. Sandra mentioned in one of her posts to
me something like "It is your JOB to get your daughter to where she
needs to go." Those words struck me right to the heart and I admit I
was quite depressed for a few days- she was right. I felt terrible
because she was right and I realized I had been letting my children
down.
That was several months ago and that day I did a complete about
face - we now get there a half hour early 4X a week. There is no more
rushing or untidy bun. I can SEE the difference in her attitude- that
I take her desire to be there seriously and that lifts her spirit
and maintains her self worth.
I don't think I would have gotten that type of advice on another
list. Maybe it being put so bluntly made me really think about what
was said more than I would have if I had to wade through sugar
coated opinions to figure out the meaning. Maybe not
At any rate there is a saying "principles before personalities"
meaning take the principle behind what the person as saying and don�t
let their personality get in the way of receiving the message.
=======================================
There are MANY other lists where the goal is to sit and write
whatever comes to mind, to other people who are going to read it
lightly and write whatever comes to mind. The few lists I'm on that
are that way pretty much bug the crap out of me, because it IS a
waste of time and energy, but some people like the mindless chit-chat
and the cooing and "support" and camaraderie. In some cases it can
lead to real friendships, but in more cases it's fluff and noise. I
stay because under 20 messages might be one piece of information I
actually needed.
-=--=- I don't know that I share your zeal for proselytizing
unschooling although I do enjoy sharing and promoting unschooling and
respectful parenting.
-=--=-
I think what I'm doing is sharing and promoting unschooling and
respectful parenting. I spend money (I pay for webspace and support
and I got full photobucket so I can upload, store and link graphics
better than I could on the website I'm already paying for. It's not
huge amounts of money, and It seems totally worth it to me to have
things where I can just send people links when they ask. It's like
any volunteer work or community service, only I can do it from home
and still be with my kids.
Anyway... I think proselytizing is trying to bring everyone into one
fold, and I don't think unschooling is for everyone. I think
unschooling is for very few and it's easy to screw it up. Some
people say "Anyone can unschool," and I've never ever heard or read
those words without thinking (and sometimes saying) "No they can't."
And some people say "You've been unschooling since your baby was
born!" and that's nonsense. Those who like to think there's nothing
to it are going to take longer to get it going well than those who
actively try to adjust their lives and homes and thinking to get that
learning flow running, and to get ideas and communications swirling.
I'm willing to help people do that, because it was harder for me to
get going than it needs to be now, with the internet and e-mail
lists. I like to help make it easier for those who want to do it,
but I'm not off trying to convert the heathen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
although I do enjoy sharing and promoting unschooling and respectful
parenting.
-=-
Someone wrote this to me on the side.
"Proselytizing" doesn't sound at all like what I do to me. I don't
like to be interviewed because I don't trust the journalists to
understand well enough to describe unschooling accurately. I don't
go to regular homeschooling lists and say "You should unschool
instead." When the internet was in its awkward infancy and there
weren't pages or e-mail lists, just newsgroups, and all the
homeschoolers were lumped together in one group on *Prodigy, I
wouldn't say "Unschooling is GREAT!," but I would respond when others
said "If they're not made to read, they'll never read." I would say
"I know kids who are reading who weren't made to read," or whatever.
Proselytizing is going out to people who didn't want to know.
I'm staying in a place (my website, here, UnschoolingDiscussion list
on google) where people can find me. It's more like an office.
People can look for these discussions or those pages, and they can
come here, but I don't chase them down or invite them over with
billboards or flyers on doors.
When people are here, I assume they came to discuss unschooling in a
serious way. The fact that I prefer serious, honest discussions
might seem like "proselytizing." I see it as integrity and
consideration for not wasting people's time or energy.
On Unschooling Discussion someone posted this in response to another
mom who's new there (and hostile and resistant) (from line to line is
the quoted part):
===========================================
On this the list a while back I posted how I was late all the time
for my daughters ballets lessons ( and I know your daughter is in
similar lessons with RAD so maybe you can relate) and I ended up in
big fight with ballet teacher.
I came to the list for advice on how I could better handle the
situation which got ugle for other reasons. I think in part I
wanted to be validated- "oh what an awful teacher, how dare she
criticize you, blah blah blah." I don�t think I consciously wanted to
hear that. but in hindsight I think I wanted to be validated.
I know on several homeschool/unschool lists I would have gotten that-
"don't be so hard on yourself" , etc.
On this list- what makes it different- is that you don�t get away
with that kind of thinking. Sandra mentioned in one of her posts to
me something like "It is your JOB to get your daughter to where she
needs to go." Those words struck me right to the heart and I admit I
was quite depressed for a few days- she was right. I felt terrible
because she was right and I realized I had been letting my children
down.
That was several months ago and that day I did a complete about
face - we now get there a half hour early 4X a week. There is no more
rushing or untidy bun. I can SEE the difference in her attitude- that
I take her desire to be there seriously and that lifts her spirit
and maintains her self worth.
I don't think I would have gotten that type of advice on another
list. Maybe it being put so bluntly made me really think about what
was said more than I would have if I had to wade through sugar
coated opinions to figure out the meaning. Maybe not
At any rate there is a saying "principles before personalities"
meaning take the principle behind what the person as saying and don�t
let their personality get in the way of receiving the message.
=======================================
There are MANY other lists where the goal is to sit and write
whatever comes to mind, to other people who are going to read it
lightly and write whatever comes to mind. The few lists I'm on that
are that way pretty much bug the crap out of me, because it IS a
waste of time and energy, but some people like the mindless chit-chat
and the cooing and "support" and camaraderie. In some cases it can
lead to real friendships, but in more cases it's fluff and noise. I
stay because under 20 messages might be one piece of information I
actually needed.
-=--=- I don't know that I share your zeal for proselytizing
unschooling although I do enjoy sharing and promoting unschooling and
respectful parenting.
-=--=-
I think what I'm doing is sharing and promoting unschooling and
respectful parenting. I spend money (I pay for webspace and support
and I got full photobucket so I can upload, store and link graphics
better than I could on the website I'm already paying for. It's not
huge amounts of money, and It seems totally worth it to me to have
things where I can just send people links when they ask. It's like
any volunteer work or community service, only I can do it from home
and still be with my kids.
Anyway... I think proselytizing is trying to bring everyone into one
fold, and I don't think unschooling is for everyone. I think
unschooling is for very few and it's easy to screw it up. Some
people say "Anyone can unschool," and I've never ever heard or read
those words without thinking (and sometimes saying) "No they can't."
And some people say "You've been unschooling since your baby was
born!" and that's nonsense. Those who like to think there's nothing
to it are going to take longer to get it going well than those who
actively try to adjust their lives and homes and thinking to get that
learning flow running, and to get ideas and communications swirling.
I'm willing to help people do that, because it was harder for me to
get going than it needs to be now, with the internet and e-mail
lists. I like to help make it easier for those who want to do it,
but I'm not off trying to convert the heathen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I had written this:
I don't think unschooling is for everyone. I think
unschooling is for very few and it's easy to screw it up. Some
people say "Anyone can unschool," and I've never ever heard or read
those words without thinking (and sometimes saying) "No they can't."
By e-mail, someone wrote this, and I said I'd answer online instead
of there. After I had written that, I found a really cool pair of
graphics that show clearly why unschooling will work GREAT for some
people and probably not work at all for others. If I had answered
the question right away, I'd've had no pictures to show for it. <g>
======================
How does one know if they can do it or not? How does a person know
if unschooling is right for one's family or not?
If not everyone can do it, then does that mean that some who think
they are unschooling are actually not and thus potentially harming
their children?
I mean, if I thought I was unschooling my kids and years later
discovered I wasn't actually unschooling, and my kids had learned
nothing, that would seem to be doing them a disservice. Yet I read
that kids (everyone) learns all the time, from life, so anything they
do can be thought of as a "learning experience." How can a person
fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?
==================================================================
I'll answer them backwards. The third one...
-=- I read that kids (everyone) learns all the time, from life, so
anything they do can be thought of as a "learning experience." How
can a person fail at unschooling? -=-
A parent can fail at unschooling by being
critical
negative
exasperated
selfish
bored
boring
depressed
depressing
cheap
lazy
insulting
pessimistic
cynical
unwilling to change
more concerned about their own mothers' opinions than about being
their children's best mother
If the parents consider their children's interests to be "stupid,"
unschooling will be stunted at best, at their house.
If the parents are unschooling because they think it will be less
expensive and take less time and effort, they won't be good unschoolers.
Children learn from things they feel happy and good and hopeful
about. From other things, they learn to stop trusting, stop trying,
avoid learning.
-=-How can a person fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?-=-
It's harder to fail than to succeed. People do it all the time.
They say "We used to unschool" but when pressed for details, it's
sometimes no more than one semester they quit their curriculum early,
or they used to only require math and reading, but that wasn't
working so they went back to a curriculum. There are people who
"give it a try" for a month and decide it didn't work. There are
people who are unwilling to even look into the idea of deschooling,
so they walk around with an emergency-option school on their backs,
and in their heads. They live in the shadow of school. They compare
everything their kids do or don't do to an idealized vision of what
the child would do if he were in school, or to a theoretical model of
the ideal school kid.
-=-If not everyone can do it, then does that mean that some who think
they are unschooling are actually not and thus potentially harming
their children?-=-
If the children are unhappy, and the parents aren't thinking of fun,
creative, surprising and interesting things to do, the kids might be
better off in school. School potentially harms people. If the
parents can do better than school in so many ways that the kids
really would rather be home doing cooler things, then the parents
probably can unschool. If the parents want to expend the lowest
possible effort and spend more time thinking "Anything's better than
school" instead of "How can we make every single day fun and
memorable?" then they probably shouldn't bother to try to unschool.
-=- I mean, if I thought I was unschooling my kids and years later
discovered I wasn't actually unschooling, and my kids had learned
nothing, that would seem to be doing them a disservice. -=-
It would be a disservice to all unschoolers, too, to call neglect
unschooling.
Would it really take YEARS to discover kid weren't learning and
weren't happy?
So... those graphs:
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/pask.htm#serialists
The second, scattery/holistic model, is how I've described
unschooling over the years. If people pick up all kinds of
knowledge, and start making the connections, it's easier to add
things in between those things.
Some people can do both, or are some balance between the two, or it
depends on the topic... If everyone in a family is genetically a
"serialist" then unschooling isn't going to work for them. If the
parents are and the child isn't, the child can probably learn in
spite of them. If the parents are holistic and the child is a
serialist, the child can still learn from books and lists and such,
and will probably still pick up cool ideas from the swirl of the
holistically-still-learning-and-connecting parents.
In a family (such as my own) in which every single person is happy to
gather information in all kinds of ways and make those connections,
unschooling works pretty effortlessly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think unschooling is for everyone. I think
unschooling is for very few and it's easy to screw it up. Some
people say "Anyone can unschool," and I've never ever heard or read
those words without thinking (and sometimes saying) "No they can't."
By e-mail, someone wrote this, and I said I'd answer online instead
of there. After I had written that, I found a really cool pair of
graphics that show clearly why unschooling will work GREAT for some
people and probably not work at all for others. If I had answered
the question right away, I'd've had no pictures to show for it. <g>
======================
How does one know if they can do it or not? How does a person know
if unschooling is right for one's family or not?
If not everyone can do it, then does that mean that some who think
they are unschooling are actually not and thus potentially harming
their children?
I mean, if I thought I was unschooling my kids and years later
discovered I wasn't actually unschooling, and my kids had learned
nothing, that would seem to be doing them a disservice. Yet I read
that kids (everyone) learns all the time, from life, so anything they
do can be thought of as a "learning experience." How can a person
fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?
==================================================================
I'll answer them backwards. The third one...
-=- I read that kids (everyone) learns all the time, from life, so
anything they do can be thought of as a "learning experience." How
can a person fail at unschooling? -=-
A parent can fail at unschooling by being
critical
negative
exasperated
selfish
bored
boring
depressed
depressing
cheap
lazy
insulting
pessimistic
cynical
unwilling to change
more concerned about their own mothers' opinions than about being
their children's best mother
If the parents consider their children's interests to be "stupid,"
unschooling will be stunted at best, at their house.
If the parents are unschooling because they think it will be less
expensive and take less time and effort, they won't be good unschoolers.
Children learn from things they feel happy and good and hopeful
about. From other things, they learn to stop trusting, stop trying,
avoid learning.
-=-How can a person fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?-=-
It's harder to fail than to succeed. People do it all the time.
They say "We used to unschool" but when pressed for details, it's
sometimes no more than one semester they quit their curriculum early,
or they used to only require math and reading, but that wasn't
working so they went back to a curriculum. There are people who
"give it a try" for a month and decide it didn't work. There are
people who are unwilling to even look into the idea of deschooling,
so they walk around with an emergency-option school on their backs,
and in their heads. They live in the shadow of school. They compare
everything their kids do or don't do to an idealized vision of what
the child would do if he were in school, or to a theoretical model of
the ideal school kid.
-=-If not everyone can do it, then does that mean that some who think
they are unschooling are actually not and thus potentially harming
their children?-=-
If the children are unhappy, and the parents aren't thinking of fun,
creative, surprising and interesting things to do, the kids might be
better off in school. School potentially harms people. If the
parents can do better than school in so many ways that the kids
really would rather be home doing cooler things, then the parents
probably can unschool. If the parents want to expend the lowest
possible effort and spend more time thinking "Anything's better than
school" instead of "How can we make every single day fun and
memorable?" then they probably shouldn't bother to try to unschool.
-=- I mean, if I thought I was unschooling my kids and years later
discovered I wasn't actually unschooling, and my kids had learned
nothing, that would seem to be doing them a disservice. -=-
It would be a disservice to all unschoolers, too, to call neglect
unschooling.
Would it really take YEARS to discover kid weren't learning and
weren't happy?
So... those graphs:
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/pask.htm#serialists
The second, scattery/holistic model, is how I've described
unschooling over the years. If people pick up all kinds of
knowledge, and start making the connections, it's easier to add
things in between those things.
Some people can do both, or are some balance between the two, or it
depends on the topic... If everyone in a family is genetically a
"serialist" then unschooling isn't going to work for them. If the
parents are and the child isn't, the child can probably learn in
spite of them. If the parents are holistic and the child is a
serialist, the child can still learn from books and lists and such,
and will probably still pick up cool ideas from the swirl of the
holistically-still-learning-and-connecting parents.
In a family (such as my own) in which every single person is happy to
gather information in all kinds of ways and make those connections,
unschooling works pretty effortlessly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jecaam28
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
across this post and feel like I need to return to it. Some of the
thigns said here really struck a cord with me.
How can a person
continued to read, A lot of what was written seemed to describe my
picture of me. Am I one of the ones who shouldn't unschool?
because I feel I have now become aware That I do project these
traits and am wanting to change and am actively trying to find ways
to do this. However, it seems like a very long process. My ds has
just turned 12, does he have time as for me to go through this
process? I see the same type of reactions in him. His biological
father was a angry, critical person too. Am I doing more damage than
good trying to unschool him while I work on these issues I have?
just gave her the links to several unschooling websites and told her
this is what we are doing. I have defended homeschooling so much to
my extended family,I didn't want to even think about defending
unschooling. Although, as I read this comment again, I don't think I
was really concerned about their opinions, just the backlash I had
to deal with because of them.
At first, I think this described my feeling about some of their
pursuits somewhat. I don't think "stupid" is the right word though.
I can't think of the right word, but I felt, and still do at times,
feel like certain things such as TV and video games don't really
have much value. The I thinkabout some of the thing smy DS comes up
with and when I ask "where did you learn that" his answer is
discovery kids or somethign similar. DD, however, only watches
disney or charmed. I think this is where I am truly wonderign about
the value. The she will come up with some tidbit of info that seem
valuable that was gleened forn one of these shows. It's a constant
internal conflict of mine.
From other things, they learn to stop trusting, stop trying,
up to be able to trust in me and come to me wit whatever they needed
to. I hav recently discovered that my DS fells like he can't tell me
anything or he'll "get in trouble". I dont feel like he is avoiding
learning though. He does like to come show me his creations and
things he has found that interest him. He has said that he is glad
he can coem to me and share his interestes. I guess it is realy the
negative feelings that he feels he can not share with me or "he'll
get in trouble".
had a mish-mosh of different shoolish books. Lasted for 3 weeks.
Then I found out about unschooling. The beginning of this "school"
year I got panicky. My DS doesn't know the math that school kids
know. I hear about this all the time from my Grandmother, teacher
for 60 years. So we tried a Charlotte mason approach. Taht lasted
until november. We were liking all the reading, then we moved and
haven't started reading again. They didn't like some of the other
aspects of it and we haven't gone back. We are out in the country
and the kids are really liking exploring and playing outside. I do
think we would all liketo go back to doign soemof the reading
though. DD still spells phonetically. She would be in 4th grade this
year. This does bother her, so I am trying to help out by strewing
spelling type things. We have recently gotten Boggle and she has
jsut gotten an internet pen pal. Both of these she likes, but seems
to give up so easily because of her spelling skills.
There are
I think we have been doing this for 3 years and it is still ongoing.
Does it really take this long and longer?
in the back of my head. I usually don't think about it unless
someone else brings it up, which is often. This is one of the
reasons I think we are still deschooling.
really just pretending and doing more harm than good?
games with them. I have finally decided we waste enough money on
other thigns, I should just go ahead and let them do the activities
I have said no to in the past because i felt like we didn't have the
money. So dd is taking cooking classes and Ice skating and LOVING
both of them. Ds is in Boy Scouts and does every activity they come
up with. I feel liek we should get out more. I know they would like
to go to park day with our homeschool group more. And there is a
coop that they liek to go to on fridays. Buthow do you balance what
the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?
School potentially harms people. If the
than being in school? I can say that when asked, they do not want to
go back to school. DS has, however, said he woudl like to try middle
school for a year, but changes his mind when he realizes he doesn't
know the same schoolish things that they do (i.e. mulitiplication
and division.
"How can we make every single day fun and
take time out for such as washing clothes and cooking and fixing
thigns arougn the house? And what about when mom has gone so much
she is exhausted but the kids still want to go?
them to do anything. I guess that's a part of deschooling.
tables or division or how to diagram a sentence, but I see ALL kinds
of learning!
So I am wondering, am I one of the ones who should not unschool? Am
I failing at it?
Thasnk for listenign to my inarticulate ramblings,
Jenn
wrote:
>I haven't read for a several days and as I was catching up I came
across this post and feel like I need to return to it. Some of the
thigns said here really struck a cord with me.
How can a person
> fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?this is the line that really caught me attention. Then as I
continued to read, A lot of what was written seemed to describe my
picture of me. Am I one of the ones who shouldn't unschool?
> ==================================================================This, I think, describes me. I took out the "unwilling to change"
>
>
> A parent can fail at unschooling by being
> critical
> negative
> exasperated
> selfish
> bored
> boring
> depressed
> depressing
> cheap
> lazy
> insulting
> pessimistic
> cynical
because I feel I have now become aware That I do project these
traits and am wanting to change and am actively trying to find ways
to do this. However, it seems like a very long process. My ds has
just turned 12, does he have time as for me to go through this
process? I see the same type of reactions in him. His biological
father was a angry, critical person too. Am I doing more damage than
good trying to unschool him while I work on these issues I have?
> more concerned about their own mothers' opinions than about beingthis one i have recently gotten over. I think that's progress. I
> their children's best mother
just gave her the links to several unschooling websites and told her
this is what we are doing. I have defended homeschooling so much to
my extended family,I didn't want to even think about defending
unschooling. Although, as I read this comment again, I don't think I
was really concerned about their opinions, just the backlash I had
to deal with because of them.
>be "stupid,"
> If the parents consider their children's interests to
At first, I think this described my feeling about some of their
pursuits somewhat. I don't think "stupid" is the right word though.
I can't think of the right word, but I felt, and still do at times,
feel like certain things such as TV and video games don't really
have much value. The I thinkabout some of the thing smy DS comes up
with and when I ask "where did you learn that" his answer is
discovery kids or somethign similar. DD, however, only watches
disney or charmed. I think this is where I am truly wonderign about
the value. The she will come up with some tidbit of info that seem
valuable that was gleened forn one of these shows. It's a constant
internal conflict of mine.
>I do think my angry,, critical nature has definately affected this.
> Children learn from things they feel happy and good and hopeful
> about.
From other things, they learn to stop trusting, stop trying,
> avoid learning.I tried to be so open with my DS and DD. hoping that they would grow
up to be able to trust in me and come to me wit whatever they needed
to. I hav recently discovered that my DS fells like he can't tell me
anything or he'll "get in trouble". I dont feel like he is avoiding
learning though. He does like to come show me his creations and
things he has found that interest him. He has said that he is glad
he can coem to me and share his interestes. I guess it is realy the
negative feelings that he feels he can not share with me or "he'll
get in trouble".
>early,
> -=-How can a person fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?-=-
>
> It's harder to fail than to succeed. People do it all the time.
> They say "We used to unschool" but when pressed for details, it's
> sometimes no more than one semester they quit their curriculum
> or they used to only require math and reading, but that wasn'tOk, we've been homeschoolign for 3 years. when we first started I
> working so they went back to a curriculum. There are people who
> "give it a try" for a month and decide it didn't work.
had a mish-mosh of different shoolish books. Lasted for 3 weeks.
Then I found out about unschooling. The beginning of this "school"
year I got panicky. My DS doesn't know the math that school kids
know. I hear about this all the time from my Grandmother, teacher
for 60 years. So we tried a Charlotte mason approach. Taht lasted
until november. We were liking all the reading, then we moved and
haven't started reading again. They didn't like some of the other
aspects of it and we haven't gone back. We are out in the country
and the kids are really liking exploring and playing outside. I do
think we would all liketo go back to doign soemof the reading
though. DD still spells phonetically. She would be in 4th grade this
year. This does bother her, so I am trying to help out by strewing
spelling type things. We have recently gotten Boggle and she has
jsut gotten an internet pen pal. Both of these she likes, but seems
to give up so easily because of her spelling skills.
There are
> people who are unwilling to even look into the idea ofdeschooling,
I think we have been doing this for 3 years and it is still ongoing.
Does it really take this long and longer?
> so they walk around with an emergency-option school on theirbacks,
> and in their heads. They live in the shadow of school. Theycompare
> everything their kids do or don't do to an idealized vision ofwhat
> the child would do if he were in school, or to a theoretical modelof
> the ideal school kid.We are constantly hearing concerns from extended family so this is
in the back of my head. I usually don't think about it unless
someone else brings it up, which is often. This is one of the
reasons I think we are still deschooling.
>think
> -=-If not everyone can do it, then does that mean that some who
> they are unschooling are actually not and thus potentiallyharming
> their children?-=-So am I one of the ones that just thinks I am unschooling, but am
really just pretending and doing more harm than good?
>fun,
> If the children are unhappy, and the parents aren't thinking of
> creative, surprising and interesting things to do, the kids mightbe
> better off in school.I think I am getting better at this. I am sitting down to play more
games with them. I have finally decided we waste enough money on
other thigns, I should just go ahead and let them do the activities
I have said no to in the past because i felt like we didn't have the
money. So dd is taking cooking classes and Ice skating and LOVING
both of them. Ds is in Boy Scouts and does every activity they come
up with. I feel liek we should get out more. I know they would like
to go to park day with our homeschool group more. And there is a
coop that they liek to go to on fridays. Buthow do you balance what
the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?
School potentially harms people. If the
> parents can do better than school in so many ways that the kidsSo what if they watch "Charmed" all day? Is that better or cooler
> really would rather be home doing cooler things, then the parents
> probably can unschool.
than being in school? I can say that when asked, they do not want to
go back to school. DS has, however, said he woudl like to try middle
school for a year, but changes his mind when he realizes he doesn't
know the same schoolish things that they do (i.e. mulitiplication
and division.
"How can we make every single day fun and
> memorable?"EVERY single day? Waht about the day to day things that we have to
take time out for such as washing clothes and cooking and fixing
thigns arougn the house? And what about when mom has gone so much
she is exhausted but the kids still want to go?
> It would be a disservice to all unschoolers, too, to call neglectSometimes I think I am being neglectful because I am not requiring
> unschooling.
them to do anything. I guess that's a part of deschooling.
> Would it really take YEARS to discover kid weren't learning andI see them learning things all the time. It may not be the times
> weren't happy?
tables or division or how to diagram a sentence, but I see ALL kinds
of learning!
So I am wondering, am I one of the ones who should not unschool? Am
I failing at it?
Thasnk for listenign to my inarticulate ramblings,
Jenn
>
Wildflower Car
Jenn,
This is so much that I'm sorry I don't have time to reply to all of it.
But I think that as long as children are having basic needs met, food,
shelter, and love, they are better off being unschooled.
But again, not enough time to explain all this or make an argument for what
"might" be a are exception.
Peace out,
Wildflower
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This is so much that I'm sorry I don't have time to reply to all of it.
But I think that as long as children are having basic needs met, food,
shelter, and love, they are better off being unschooled.
But again, not enough time to explain all this or make an argument for what
"might" be a are exception.
Peace out,
Wildflower
>From: "jecaam28" <jecaam28@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "Proselytizing Unschooling"
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:43:56 -0000
>
>--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
>wrote:
> >
>I haven't read for a several days and as I was catching up I came
>across this post and feel like I need to return to it. Some of the
>thigns said here really struck a cord with me.
>
>
>How can a person
> > fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?
>
>this is the line that really caught me attention. Then as I
>continued to read, A lot of what was written seemed to describe my
>picture of me. Am I one of the ones who shouldn't unschool?
> > ==================================================================
> >
> >
> > A parent can fail at unschooling by being
> > critical
> > negative
> > exasperated
> > selfish
> > bored
> > boring
> > depressed
> > depressing
> > cheap
> > lazy
> > insulting
> > pessimistic
> > cynical
>
>This, I think, describes me. I took out the "unwilling to change"
>because I feel I have now become aware That I do project these
>traits and am wanting to change and am actively trying to find ways
>to do this. However, it seems like a very long process. My ds has
>just turned 12, does he have time as for me to go through this
>process? I see the same type of reactions in him. His biological
>father was a angry, critical person too. Am I doing more damage than
>good trying to unschool him while I work on these issues I have?
>
>
> > more concerned about their own mothers' opinions than about being
> > their children's best mother
>
> this one i have recently gotten over. I think that's progress. I
>just gave her the links to several unschooling websites and told her
>this is what we are doing. I have defended homeschooling so much to
>my extended family,I didn't want to even think about defending
>unschooling. Although, as I read this comment again, I don't think I
>was really concerned about their opinions, just the backlash I had
>to deal with because of them.
>
> >
> > If the parents consider their children's interests to
>be "stupid,"
>
>At first, I think this described my feeling about some of their
>pursuits somewhat. I don't think "stupid" is the right word though.
>I can't think of the right word, but I felt, and still do at times,
>feel like certain things such as TV and video games don't really
>have much value. The I thinkabout some of the thing smy DS comes up
>with and when I ask "where did you learn that" his answer is
>discovery kids or somethign similar. DD, however, only watches
>disney or charmed. I think this is where I am truly wonderign about
>the value. The she will come up with some tidbit of info that seem
>valuable that was gleened forn one of these shows. It's a constant
>internal conflict of mine.
> >
> > Children learn from things they feel happy and good and hopeful
> > about.
>
>I do think my angry,, critical nature has definately affected this.
>
>
> From other things, they learn to stop trusting, stop trying,
> > avoid learning.
>
>I tried to be so open with my DS and DD. hoping that they would grow
>up to be able to trust in me and come to me wit whatever they needed
>to. I hav recently discovered that my DS fells like he can't tell me
>anything or he'll "get in trouble". I dont feel like he is avoiding
>learning though. He does like to come show me his creations and
>things he has found that interest him. He has said that he is glad
>he can coem to me and share his interestes. I guess it is realy the
>negative feelings that he feels he can not share with me or "he'll
>get in trouble".
>
>
> >
> > -=-How can a person fail at unschooling? Is it so hard?-=-
> >
> > It's harder to fail than to succeed. People do it all the time.
> > They say "We used to unschool" but when pressed for details, it's
> > sometimes no more than one semester they quit their curriculum
>early,
> > or they used to only require math and reading, but that wasn't
> > working so they went back to a curriculum. There are people who
> > "give it a try" for a month and decide it didn't work.
>
>Ok, we've been homeschoolign for 3 years. when we first started I
>had a mish-mosh of different shoolish books. Lasted for 3 weeks.
>Then I found out about unschooling. The beginning of this "school"
>year I got panicky. My DS doesn't know the math that school kids
>know. I hear about this all the time from my Grandmother, teacher
>for 60 years. So we tried a Charlotte mason approach. Taht lasted
>until november. We were liking all the reading, then we moved and
>haven't started reading again. They didn't like some of the other
>aspects of it and we haven't gone back. We are out in the country
>and the kids are really liking exploring and playing outside. I do
>think we would all liketo go back to doign soemof the reading
>though. DD still spells phonetically. She would be in 4th grade this
>year. This does bother her, so I am trying to help out by strewing
>spelling type things. We have recently gotten Boggle and she has
>jsut gotten an internet pen pal. Both of these she likes, but seems
>to give up so easily because of her spelling skills.
>
>There are
> > people who are unwilling to even look into the idea of
>deschooling,
>
>I think we have been doing this for 3 years and it is still ongoing.
>Does it really take this long and longer?
>
>
> > so they walk around with an emergency-option school on their
>backs,
> > and in their heads. They live in the shadow of school. They
>compare
> > everything their kids do or don't do to an idealized vision of
>what
> > the child would do if he were in school, or to a theoretical model
>of
> > the ideal school kid.
>
>We are constantly hearing concerns from extended family so this is
>in the back of my head. I usually don't think about it unless
>someone else brings it up, which is often. This is one of the
>reasons I think we are still deschooling.
>
>
> >
> > -=-If not everyone can do it, then does that mean that some who
>think
> > they are unschooling are actually not and thus potentially
>harming
> > their children?-=-
>
>So am I one of the ones that just thinks I am unschooling, but am
>really just pretending and doing more harm than good?
>
>
>
> >
> > If the children are unhappy, and the parents aren't thinking of
>fun,
> > creative, surprising and interesting things to do, the kids might
>be
> > better off in school.
>
>I think I am getting better at this. I am sitting down to play more
>games with them. I have finally decided we waste enough money on
>other thigns, I should just go ahead and let them do the activities
>I have said no to in the past because i felt like we didn't have the
>money. So dd is taking cooking classes and Ice skating and LOVING
>both of them. Ds is in Boy Scouts and does every activity they come
>up with. I feel liek we should get out more. I know they would like
>to go to park day with our homeschool group more. And there is a
>coop that they liek to go to on fridays. Buthow do you balance what
>the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?
>
>
>
> School potentially harms people. If the
> > parents can do better than school in so many ways that the kids
> > really would rather be home doing cooler things, then the parents
> > probably can unschool.
>
>So what if they watch "Charmed" all day? Is that better or cooler
>than being in school? I can say that when asked, they do not want to
>go back to school. DS has, however, said he woudl like to try middle
>school for a year, but changes his mind when he realizes he doesn't
>know the same schoolish things that they do (i.e. mulitiplication
>and division.
>
> "How can we make every single day fun and
> > memorable?"
>
>EVERY single day? Waht about the day to day things that we have to
>take time out for such as washing clothes and cooking and fixing
>thigns arougn the house? And what about when mom has gone so much
>she is exhausted but the kids still want to go?
>
>
> > It would be a disservice to all unschoolers, too, to call neglect
> > unschooling.
>Sometimes I think I am being neglectful because I am not requiring
>them to do anything. I guess that's a part of deschooling.
>
>
> > Would it really take YEARS to discover kid weren't learning and
> > weren't happy?
>
>I see them learning things all the time. It may not be the times
>tables or division or how to diagram a sentence, but I see ALL kinds
>of learning!
>
>So I am wondering, am I one of the ones who should not unschool? Am
>I failing at it?
>
>Thasnk for listenign to my inarticulate ramblings,
>Jenn
> >
>
>
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Gold Standard
>>DD, however, only watchesSandra once wrote about what she learned watching episode after episode of
>>disney or charmed. I think this is where I am truly wonderign about
>>the value.<<
Gilligan's Island when she was younger. She talked about noticing the
geography, how the set was designed, wondering about where the island was,
how the camera angles were used (I think I'm remembering this right...it
could have been more than Sandra that contributed to that thread) and that
really resonated with me because I had the same experience with Gilligan's
Island...I watched every episode many times. My parents thought it was a
waste of time and let me know it. I continued to watch, but did so at that
point with a bit of shame, because now I thought that what I was doing was
irresponsible and bad. But I loved the show! I remember being entranced with
the stereotyped characters (the Howells were the first rich people I had
ever seen, and Ginger, well, gosh, before her I didn't think anybody really
could have been glamorous like that [or shallow :o)]. So even though they
weren't real people, and I knew that, I did learn a bit about the
possibilities...someone could spend their time looking beautiful and
modeling, someone could actually have so much money they paid for people to
do even the simplest of tasks for them. I was really quite enmeshed in that
show, and it was a really important thing for me at the time. I internally
got a lot out of it. If I was forced to go play outside, I probably would
have tried to watch it through a window.
So the point is, what is meaningless to you is a separate thing entirely
from what is meaningful to your children. And if you inflict your negative
opinion onto something they love, it will get in the way of your
relationship, and take away an opportunity to enjoy something together.
>>Buthow do you balance whatKids first as much as possible. Start with a "yes" to questions asked, and
>>the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?<<
then qualify it if you have to with "as soon as I...(put gas in the car,
finish my bagel, circulate the laundry)". I have found having an attitude of
"yes" to be a great tool in unschooling. There really isn't a whole lot to
say an absolute "no" to.
Also, there is little that I "need" or even want at this point in my life
that takes away from my kids...because what I really want above all else is
to have a healthy, lasting, trusting relationship with each one of my
children. The reading, the movie-watching, the massage, the conversing on
the phone, really can all wait until my kids aren't around as much. I do get
to do these things on occasion, but I really try to do it around my kids'
needs/wants. My older kids are already starting to be gone more and I do
have much more freedom than ever before in my parenting. Sidenote: my almost
17 yo just said yesterday, "Mom, I'm going to college but I'm going to live
at home and not build up debt and live with you guys for a long time. Just
letting you know." YES!!!! I SO hope that that is how it turns out, as he is
just such a good friend of mine. But I am also ready for him to decide
otherwise, if he wants, as he gets older. I think it is telling though, that
he would even say such a thing at an age that is typically known for
rebelling and kids counting the days until they can leave home.
>>So what if they watch "Charmed" all day? Is that better or coolerOMG yes! She is really getting something out of that show. Have you sat and
>>than being in school?<<
watched it with her...with an appreciative attitude? That behavior will
strengthen your relationship.
>"How can we make every single day fun andMaybe those things don't always have to be done when you think they do?
> memorable?"
>>EVERY single day? Waht about the day to day things that we have to
>>take time out for such as washing clothes and cooking and fixing
>>thigns arougn the house?<<
Maybe putting out there "We can do such and such (what they want), but I am
wondering how people will have clean clothes tomorrow. Any ideas?" See what
they say...I bet they get involved in that problem-solving, and you may even
have eager participants to help. You may learn that they don't even want
clean clothes tomorrow.
I would also suggest that the activities you list above could be seen as
fun, and could be done pleasantly and invitingly, a time to share together,
rather than as chores. And the little things that you do around the house
CAN be memorable...we just played dirty sock ball as we were loading up the
laundry...THAT will be memorable (for me at least :ol ), and was part of a
regular ordinary daily activity.
>>And what about when mom has gone so muchI think it is okay to say when you're exhausted, if that is truly the case.
>>she is exhausted but the kids still want to go?<<
If kids are supported and get to do things they are interested lots of the
time, they are pretty supportive back when you need it.
I admire your honesty in looking at what is working for you and not in
unschooling.
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
-=-But I think that as long as children are having basic needs met,
food,
shelter, and love, they are better off being unschooled.
-=-
It depends on the kids and the house and the attitudes.
I don't think it's a good idea to encourage parents to think that
"whatever" is better than school. When we can make a child's life
better, shouldn't we?
Sandra
food,
shelter, and love, they are better off being unschooled.
-=-
It depends on the kids and the house and the attitudes.
I don't think it's a good idea to encourage parents to think that
"whatever" is better than school. When we can make a child's life
better, shouldn't we?
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra once wrote about what she learned watching episode after
episode of
Gilligan's Island when she was younger. She talked about noticing the
geography, how the set was designed, wondering about where the island
was,
how the camera angles were used (I think I'm remembering this right...it
could have been more than Sandra that contributed to that thread) and
that
really resonated with me because I had the same experience with
Gilligan's
Island...I watched every episode many times.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
-=-Start with a "yes" to questions asked, and
then qualify it if you have to with "as soon as I...(put gas in the car,
finish my bagel, circulate the laundry)". I have found having an
attitude of
"yes" to be a great tool in unschooling. There really isn't a whole
lot to
say an absolute "no" to.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/yes
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
episode of
Gilligan's Island when she was younger. She talked about noticing the
geography, how the set was designed, wondering about where the island
was,
how the camera angles were used (I think I'm remembering this right...it
could have been more than Sandra that contributed to that thread) and
that
really resonated with me because I had the same experience with
Gilligan's
Island...I watched every episode many times.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
-=-Start with a "yes" to questions asked, and
then qualify it if you have to with "as soon as I...(put gas in the car,
finish my bagel, circulate the laundry)". I have found having an
attitude of
"yes" to be a great tool in unschooling. There really isn't a whole
lot to
say an absolute "no" to.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/yes
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I feel I have now become aware That I do project these
traits and am wanting to change and am actively trying to find ways
to do this. However, it seems like a very long process. My ds has
just turned 12, does he have time as for me to go through this
process?-=-
If you start now you'll start changing now.
Does he have time for you to continue to be negative?
People can get addicted to their negativity.
People sometimes have friends who will drag them back down. It's
almost like with drugs or alcohol. If what friends to together is
piss and moan and laugh at other people and belittle things, one can
sometimes have to find a new social group to get out of that pit of
dramatic despair and "superiority."
-=-Am I doing more damage than
good trying to unschool him while I work on these issues I have? -=-
Those issues you have are like the air that you breath. If he goes
to school, you'll still be negative before and after, right? Just
start changing now, if you want to change.
Here are some tools and toys:
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
http://sandradodd.com/joy
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
traits and am wanting to change and am actively trying to find ways
to do this. However, it seems like a very long process. My ds has
just turned 12, does he have time as for me to go through this
process?-=-
If you start now you'll start changing now.
Does he have time for you to continue to be negative?
People can get addicted to their negativity.
People sometimes have friends who will drag them back down. It's
almost like with drugs or alcohol. If what friends to together is
piss and moan and laugh at other people and belittle things, one can
sometimes have to find a new social group to get out of that pit of
dramatic despair and "superiority."
-=-Am I doing more damage than
good trying to unschool him while I work on these issues I have? -=-
Those issues you have are like the air that you breath. If he goes
to school, you'll still be negative before and after, right? Just
start changing now, if you want to change.
Here are some tools and toys:
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
http://sandradodd.com/joy
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Although, as I read this comment again, I don't think I
was really concerned about their opinions, just the backlash I had
to deal with because of them.
-=-
I don't see the difference in those two.
If you need to appease them, then you need to. Some people are more
separate from their families than others, either emotionally or
physically or legally. There are many factors that can preclude
unschooling--hostile ex husbands or other parents in the equation,
money and living space... No one has a "right to unschool." It's
something a family will need to work out the same way they would need
to work out sending the kids to an expensive boarding school, or
owning llamas, or a yacht.
If someone from a longtime vegetarian family wanted to open a
steakhouse, he would be dealing with family backlash. People just
need to decide their priorities, and if unschooling is high on the
list, they need to arrange what needs to be arranged.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
was really concerned about their opinions, just the backlash I had
to deal with because of them.
-=-
I don't see the difference in those two.
If you need to appease them, then you need to. Some people are more
separate from their families than others, either emotionally or
physically or legally. There are many factors that can preclude
unschooling--hostile ex husbands or other parents in the equation,
money and living space... No one has a "right to unschool." It's
something a family will need to work out the same way they would need
to work out sending the kids to an expensive boarding school, or
owning llamas, or a yacht.
If someone from a longtime vegetarian family wanted to open a
steakhouse, he would be dealing with family backlash. People just
need to decide their priorities, and if unschooling is high on the
list, they need to arrange what needs to be arranged.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wildflower Car
Hello Sandra-
basics are there, unschooling can and does happen. And as I mentioned
previously, I am certainly sure that I don't have all the answers and there
may be exceptions. (Wildflower)
needs should be met. After that, I think whatever can and does work.
I am, of course, speaking from my own life and the lives of people
I've interacted with.(Wildflower)
When we can make a child's life
we should try to some degree to make lives in the world better.
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
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>-=-But I think that as long as children are having basic needs met,I think the variances make the world a better place. And as long as the
>food,
>shelter, and love, they are better off being unschooled. (Wildflower)
>-=-
>
>It depends on the kids and the house and the attitudes.(Sandra)
basics are there, unschooling can and does happen. And as I mentioned
previously, I am certainly sure that I don't have all the answers and there
may be exceptions. (Wildflower)
>I am not encouraging whatever, I prefaced it by saying that certain
>I don't think it's a good idea to encourage parents to think that
>"whatever" is better than school. (Sandra)
needs should be met. After that, I think whatever can and does work.
I am, of course, speaking from my own life and the lives of people
I've interacted with.(Wildflower)
When we can make a child's life
>better, shouldn't we?I certainly agree that we should make our children's lives better. I believe
>
>Sandra
we should try to some degree to make lives in the world better.
Wildflower
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Ok, we've been homeschoolign for 3 years. when we first started I
had a mish-mosh of different shoolish books. Lasted for 3 weeks.
Then I found out about unschooling. The beginning of this "school"
year I got panicky. My DS doesn't know the math that school kids
know. I hear about this all the time from my Grandmother, teacher
for 60 years. So we tried a Charlotte mason approach. Taht lasted
until november. We were liking all the reading, then we moved and
haven't started reading again. They didn't like some of the other
aspects of it and we haven't gone back.-=-
You're going back and forth, because you don't have faith in natural
learning.
-=-I do
think we would all liketo go back to doign soemof the reading
though. DD still spells phonetically. She would be in 4th grade this
year. This does bother her, so I am trying to help out by strewing
spelling type things. We have recently gotten Boggle and she has
jsut gotten an internet pen pal. Both of these she likes, but seems
to give up so easily because of her spelling skills.-=-
You're pushing spelling. She's 9? 10? Let her do fun things, not
"spelling things."
You want to go back to doing some of the reading?
You're looking at books or a list or an ideal instead of your children.
-=-There are
-=-I think we have been doing this for 3 years and it is still ongoing.
Does it really take this long and longer?-=-
Deschooling begins when school ends, and not a moment before. You
keep schooling. you want to go back now.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Please do read that deschooling link, and those it links to. It will
help more than anything else, I think.
-=-So am I one of the ones that just thinks I am unschooling, but am
really just pretending and doing more harm than good?-=-
This sounds kind of accusatory and defensive and negative.
If what you're doing is half-hearted and unsettled, are you "really
just pretending"? Do you think you are unschooling or are you full-on
unschooling? There's a whole range os possibility, it's not just
"is" or "isn't." It will be learning all the time, about how to do
it better and more confidently.
-=-I feel liek we should get out more. I know they would like
to go to park day with our homeschool group more. And there is a
coop that they liek to go to on fridays. Buthow do you balance what
the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?=-
First do what you need to do for your kids, and with the leftover
time take care of yourself.
http://sandradodd.com/howto
-=-"How can we make every single day fun and
take time out for such as washing clothes and cooking and fixing
thigns arougn the house? And what about when mom has gone so much
she is exhausted but the kids still want to go?-=-
It doesn't take 24 hours to make a day fun or memorable. It takes
something fun or memorable.
How many days would you like to aim for if "EVERY" it too many for
you? How many days are you willing to let go while your children are
young? You won't get those days back.
-=-Sometimes I think I am being neglectful because I am not requiring
them to do anything. I guess that's a part of deschooling.-=-
I think you have a wrong idea of deschooling, but you'll be reading
that stuff again, right? <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
had a mish-mosh of different shoolish books. Lasted for 3 weeks.
Then I found out about unschooling. The beginning of this "school"
year I got panicky. My DS doesn't know the math that school kids
know. I hear about this all the time from my Grandmother, teacher
for 60 years. So we tried a Charlotte mason approach. Taht lasted
until november. We were liking all the reading, then we moved and
haven't started reading again. They didn't like some of the other
aspects of it and we haven't gone back.-=-
You're going back and forth, because you don't have faith in natural
learning.
-=-I do
think we would all liketo go back to doign soemof the reading
though. DD still spells phonetically. She would be in 4th grade this
year. This does bother her, so I am trying to help out by strewing
spelling type things. We have recently gotten Boggle and she has
jsut gotten an internet pen pal. Both of these she likes, but seems
to give up so easily because of her spelling skills.-=-
You're pushing spelling. She's 9? 10? Let her do fun things, not
"spelling things."
You want to go back to doing some of the reading?
You're looking at books or a list or an ideal instead of your children.
-=-There are
> people who are unwilling to even look into the idea ofdeschooling,
-=-I think we have been doing this for 3 years and it is still ongoing.
Does it really take this long and longer?-=-
Deschooling begins when school ends, and not a moment before. You
keep schooling. you want to go back now.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Please do read that deschooling link, and those it links to. It will
help more than anything else, I think.
-=-So am I one of the ones that just thinks I am unschooling, but am
really just pretending and doing more harm than good?-=-
This sounds kind of accusatory and defensive and negative.
If what you're doing is half-hearted and unsettled, are you "really
just pretending"? Do you think you are unschooling or are you full-on
unschooling? There's a whole range os possibility, it's not just
"is" or "isn't." It will be learning all the time, about how to do
it better and more confidently.
-=-I feel liek we should get out more. I know they would like
to go to park day with our homeschool group more. And there is a
coop that they liek to go to on fridays. Buthow do you balance what
the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?=-
First do what you need to do for your kids, and with the leftover
time take care of yourself.
http://sandradodd.com/howto
-=-"How can we make every single day fun and
> memorable?"-=-EVERY single day? Waht about the day to day things that we have to
take time out for such as washing clothes and cooking and fixing
thigns arougn the house? And what about when mom has gone so much
she is exhausted but the kids still want to go?-=-
It doesn't take 24 hours to make a day fun or memorable. It takes
something fun or memorable.
How many days would you like to aim for if "EVERY" it too many for
you? How many days are you willing to let go while your children are
young? You won't get those days back.
-=-Sometimes I think I am being neglectful because I am not requiring
them to do anything. I guess that's a part of deschooling.-=-
I think you have a wrong idea of deschooling, but you'll be reading
that stuff again, right? <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Hello Sandra--=-
It's better when people address the list instead of seeming to have
side conversations. Just write to AlwaysLearning, instead of to
individuals by name.
Thanks,
Sandra-the-listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's better when people address the list instead of seeming to have
side conversations. Just write to AlwaysLearning, instead of to
individuals by name.
Thanks,
Sandra-the-listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wildflower Car
Whoops, sorry everyone! I went through all the trouble to make a note on who
was writing for the benefit of others and then addressed the e-mail,
slightly embarrassing. :)
Pleasant day all!
Wildflower
Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live
Spaces
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was writing for the benefit of others and then addressed the e-mail,
slightly embarrassing. :)
Pleasant day all!
Wildflower
>From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] JennRe: "Proselytizing Unschooling"
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:39:39 -0700
>
>-=-Hello Sandra--=-
>
>It's better when people address the list instead of seeming to have
>side conversations. Just write to AlwaysLearning, instead of to
>individuals by name.
>
>Thanks,
>Sandra-the-listowner
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live
Spaces
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jecaam28
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
wrote:
>I thought that was what I had said. that i am working on that now.
> If you start now you'll start changing now.
>Please explain your thoughts here more.
> Does he have time for you to continue to be negative?
>is
> People can get addicted to their negativity.
> People sometimes have friends who will drag them back down. It's
> almost like with drugs or alcohol. If what friends to together
> piss and moan and laugh at other people and belittle things, onecan
> sometimes have to find a new social group to get out of that pitof
> dramatic despair and "superiority."So what if the whole family is like this. What do you do then?
>
jecaam28
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
of the same exasperating conversations over and over again.
try to answer. When they don't like the answer, I get a slew of "so-
and-so said ..." or "I read ...". It's a broken record that I get
tired of listening to.
wrote:
>Meaning their opinion did not change my thoughts. I just got tired
> -=-Although, as I read this comment again, I don't think I
> was really concerned about their opinions, just the backlash I had
> to deal with because of them.
> -=-
>
> I don't see the difference in those two.
of the same exasperating conversations over and over again.
>I don't need to appease them, but when they ask a pointed question i
> If you need to appease them
try to answer. When they don't like the answer, I get a slew of "so-
and-so said ..." or "I read ...". It's a broken record that I get
tired of listening to.
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Does he have time for you to continue to be negative?
-=-Please explain your thoughts here more.-=-
It sounded as though you were asking us whether it was worth
changing, as he's already however-old he is.
It seemed to me to be a question designed to justify not changing
because there wasn't enough time.
Would you change if he died tomorrow? Would you change if you knew
he was going to die within a year?
Are you changing for him or yourself?
These questions are not asked so you'll answer them on the list.
They're asked so that you can consider them to help clarify your
feelings and thoughts and intentions.
-=-> If you start now you'll start changing now.
-=-I thought that was what I had said. that i am working on that
now.-=-
Posting more isn't as good a change as reading all those links and
starting to use those tools actively in your home today.
It doesn't matter what you said, or whether we understood what you
said, or whether you say you're working on it.
It only matters
to your children
if you do it.
-=-> People can get addicted to their negativity.
What do you think?
You either change or you don't.
Change comes in little increments. Decide where you'd rather be and
move in that direction as steadily as you can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Please explain your thoughts here more.-=-
It sounded as though you were asking us whether it was worth
changing, as he's already however-old he is.
It seemed to me to be a question designed to justify not changing
because there wasn't enough time.
Would you change if he died tomorrow? Would you change if you knew
he was going to die within a year?
Are you changing for him or yourself?
These questions are not asked so you'll answer them on the list.
They're asked so that you can consider them to help clarify your
feelings and thoughts and intentions.
-=-> If you start now you'll start changing now.
-=-I thought that was what I had said. that i am working on that
now.-=-
Posting more isn't as good a change as reading all those links and
starting to use those tools actively in your home today.
It doesn't matter what you said, or whether we understood what you
said, or whether you say you're working on it.
It only matters
to your children
if you do it.
-=-> People can get addicted to their negativity.
> People sometimes have friends who will drag them back down. It'sis
> almost like with drugs or alcohol. If what friends to together
> piss and moan and laugh at other people and belittle things, onecan
> sometimes have to find a new social group to get out of that pitof
> dramatic despair and "superiority."-=-So what if the whole family is like this. What do you do then?-=-
What do you think?
You either change or you don't.
Change comes in little increments. Decide where you'd rather be and
move in that direction as steadily as you can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Meaning their opinion did not change my thoughts. I just got tired
of the same exasperating conversations over and over again.-=-
Getting tired and being exasperated is a change.
-=-I don't need to appease them, but when they ask a pointed question i
try to answer. When they don't like the answer, I get a slew of "so-
and-so said ..." or "I read ...". It's a broken record that I get
tired of listening to.
-=-
Answering their questions and being tired of listening to them IS an
effect of their opinion upon you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meaning their opinion did not change my thoughts. I just got tired
of the same exasperating conversations over and over again.-=-
Getting tired and being exasperated is a change.
-=-I don't need to appease them, but when they ask a pointed question i
try to answer. When they don't like the answer, I get a slew of "so-
and-so said ..." or "I read ...". It's a broken record that I get
tired of listening to.
-=-
Answering their questions and being tired of listening to them IS an
effect of their opinion upon you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jecaam28
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
her because other girls in some groups she is involved in point it
out. so I was trying to strew fun that might help her in the
spelling department also- because it bothers HER.
No. I believe I said "we". I have read booksto them since they were
born. They like it. They request it. They say they miss it. I am not
looking at a list. They pick books out that they want me to read to
them. I read them.
and have referred those family member that ask those pointed
questions to it also.
I should have left the "want" out, although they are things that I
want to take care of also. We have moved to a house that has health
and safety issues. I am the one that has to do the work.
and not the small things.
Jenn
wrote:
>natural
>
> You're going back and forth, because you don't have faith in
> learning.That's my point! Am I one of the ones that is failing a unschooling?
>not
>
>
> You're pushing spelling. She's 9? 10? Let her do fun things,
> "spelling things."No, I am not pushing spelling. I said it bothered HER. It bothers
her because other girls in some groups she is involved in point it
out. so I was trying to strew fun that might help her in the
spelling department also- because it bothers HER.
>children.
> You want to go back to doing some of the reading?
> You're looking at books or a list or an ideal instead of your
No. I believe I said "we". I have read booksto them since they were
born. They like it. They request it. They say they miss it. I am not
looking at a list. They pick books out that they want me to read to
them. I read them.
>Where did you get this idea?
>
> You keep schooling. you want to go back now.
>will
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Please do read that deschooling link, and those it links to. It
> help more than anything else, I think.I will. Thank you. I have read many artcles at your site and others
and have referred those family member that ask those pointed
questions to it also.
>am
> -=-So am I one of the ones that just thinks I am unschooling, but
> really just pretending and doing more harm than good?-=-I really meant it as just an honest question.
>
> This sounds kind of accusatory and defensive and negative.
>I will read this too, but I wasn't really referring to myself. Maybe
>>
> -=-I feel liek we should get out more. I know they would like
> to go to park day with our homeschool group more. And there is a
> coop that they liek to go to on fridays. Buthow do you balance what
> the kids want to do with what you need/want to do?=-
>
> First do what you need to do for your kids, and with the leftover
> time take care of yourself.
> http://sandradodd.com/howto
I should have left the "want" out, although they are things that I
want to take care of also. We have moved to a house that has health
and safety issues. I am the one that has to do the work.
>takes
>
>
> It doesn't take 24 hours to make a day fun or memorable. It
> something fun or memorable.I think I am looking at "fun and memorable" as a big outing or such
and not the small things.
>reading
>
>
>
> I think you have a wrong idea of deschooling, but you'll be
> that stuff again, right?Right.
Jenn
jecaam28
--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...>
wrote:
favorite show. I sit down to watch it with her and before I know it,
we've watched 4 episodes and are putting in the next DVD. Now that I
think about it, there is a lot she could learn from them. We just
watched an episode thart included greek mythology. Thanks.
wrote:
>you sat and
>
> >>So what if they watch "Charmed" all day? Is that better or cooler
> >>than being in school?<<
>
> OMG yes! She is really getting something out of that show. Have
> watched it with her...with an appreciative attitude? That behaviorwill
> strengthen your relationship.Actually, we have every season of DVD's out now because it is my
favorite show. I sit down to watch it with her and before I know it,
we've watched 4 episodes and are putting in the next DVD. Now that I
think about it, there is a lot she could learn from them. We just
watched an episode thart included greek mythology. Thanks.
>Jenn
jenstarc4
"But how do you balance what the kids want to do with what you
need/want to do?"
Given all the other things that you said, I would make sure that your
children's needs come first long enough for it to become a habit to see
them as being the MOST important needs that you have.
What you want and need, needs to come after what your kids want and
need. You need to put them first. By doing that long enough, you will
see that their needs for you become less, because they are full.
Sometimes when I feel like I need to do something just for me and it is
contradictory to what my kids need at the moment, I have to take myself
out of the room for a minute and give myself a little pep talk.
The idea that happy children have happy moms, generally because the mom
is doing something self fulfilling, is a copout. Moms can be happy
being moms and find fulfillment being the best moms they can be. In
shifting my perspective thusly, I actually find that I DO have more
time for myself because my kids aren't so needy of me.
need/want to do?"
Given all the other things that you said, I would make sure that your
children's needs come first long enough for it to become a habit to see
them as being the MOST important needs that you have.
What you want and need, needs to come after what your kids want and
need. You need to put them first. By doing that long enough, you will
see that their needs for you become less, because they are full.
Sometimes when I feel like I need to do something just for me and it is
contradictory to what my kids need at the moment, I have to take myself
out of the room for a minute and give myself a little pep talk.
The idea that happy children have happy moms, generally because the mom
is doing something self fulfilling, is a copout. Moms can be happy
being moms and find fulfillment being the best moms they can be. In
shifting my perspective thusly, I actually find that I DO have more
time for myself because my kids aren't so needy of me.
Robyn L Coburn
<<<< What you want and need, needs to come after what your kids want and
need. You need to put them first. >>>>
After a lot of thinking and writing over time about this kind of issue,
including trying to get my head around the idea that there need never be
conflicts in consensual living, that "conflicting needs" is a construct that
maintains adversarial thinking, I came to the realization that I only ever
have one need that is ever a problem.
At one time I was talking about the concept of "surrendering to Jayn's need"
- as being a process of relinquishing of my less urgent/important need in
order to return to serenity - looking at it hierarchically. People
encouraged me to see the very idea of surrendering as intertwined with
living adversarially.
I have come to realize that the greatest, the only, battle is within myself.
Every time there was (is) an apparent conflict of needs between me and Jayn
(she wanted to run and hide, I wanted to "feel she was safe" - she wanted to
stay, I wanted to go - she wanted to go, I wanted to stay) every time I
start feeling that tension of powerlessness inside and believe that I can
successfully resolve it by choosing to give (or give in) to her by
surrendering to her desire or need, what I was and am really doing is simply
this:
Letting go of my need to control.
Every time. It isn't about Jayn (or James) at all. It isn't about putting
them ahead. It is about freeing myself from my need to control.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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3:42 PM
need. You need to put them first. >>>>
After a lot of thinking and writing over time about this kind of issue,
including trying to get my head around the idea that there need never be
conflicts in consensual living, that "conflicting needs" is a construct that
maintains adversarial thinking, I came to the realization that I only ever
have one need that is ever a problem.
At one time I was talking about the concept of "surrendering to Jayn's need"
- as being a process of relinquishing of my less urgent/important need in
order to return to serenity - looking at it hierarchically. People
encouraged me to see the very idea of surrendering as intertwined with
living adversarially.
I have come to realize that the greatest, the only, battle is within myself.
Every time there was (is) an apparent conflict of needs between me and Jayn
(she wanted to run and hide, I wanted to "feel she was safe" - she wanted to
stay, I wanted to go - she wanted to go, I wanted to stay) every time I
start feeling that tension of powerlessness inside and believe that I can
successfully resolve it by choosing to give (or give in) to her by
surrendering to her desire or need, what I was and am really doing is simply
this:
Letting go of my need to control.
Every time. It isn't about Jayn (or James) at all. It isn't about putting
them ahead. It is about freeing myself from my need to control.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.20/664 - Release Date: 2/2/2007
3:42 PM
Sandra Dodd
Someone wrote, seemingly in defense of a family in which cynicism and
unhappiness were common, "I think that as long as children are having
basic needs met, food, shelter, and love, they are better off being
unschooled."
Below is a quote from something Pam Sorooshian wrote, about wonder.
It and several other things about appreciating wonder are here:
http://sandradodd.com
------------------------------------
I'm just recommending that people look at what their kids ARE doing
and see if they can change their own thinking about it - see it in
the best possible way. It doesn't change what they're doing, but it
changes the "tone" in the home and that is so all-important it can't
be overemphasized.
I guess, to be honest, I don't think people who are negative,
pessimistic, or cynical are going to make great unschooling parents
and that if they know themselves to be that way, they owe it to their
kids to work on being more positive, optimistic, and especially at
not expressing even minimal scorn. They'll do better by choosing to
be more child-like themselves, more filled with wonder at even little
ordinary aspects of life.
----------------------------------
I agree with Pam that the tone in the home makes or breaks
unschooling. "It is so all-important it can't be overemphasized."
There is no benefit to anyone here for a single person on this list
to encourage a mom to settle for doing a wan and half-assed job when
she can improve her own life and those of her children and
grandchildren by taking steps to perk up and be better.
Sandra
unhappiness were common, "I think that as long as children are having
basic needs met, food, shelter, and love, they are better off being
unschooled."
Below is a quote from something Pam Sorooshian wrote, about wonder.
It and several other things about appreciating wonder are here:
http://sandradodd.com
------------------------------------
I'm just recommending that people look at what their kids ARE doing
and see if they can change their own thinking about it - see it in
the best possible way. It doesn't change what they're doing, but it
changes the "tone" in the home and that is so all-important it can't
be overemphasized.
I guess, to be honest, I don't think people who are negative,
pessimistic, or cynical are going to make great unschooling parents
and that if they know themselves to be that way, they owe it to their
kids to work on being more positive, optimistic, and especially at
not expressing even minimal scorn. They'll do better by choosing to
be more child-like themselves, more filled with wonder at even little
ordinary aspects of life.
----------------------------------
I agree with Pam that the tone in the home makes or breaks
unschooling. "It is so all-important it can't be overemphasized."
There is no benefit to anyone here for a single person on this list
to encourage a mom to settle for doing a wan and half-assed job when
she can improve her own life and those of her children and
grandchildren by taking steps to perk up and be better.
Sandra