Bill Ellis

On 09, Dec 2006, at 3:32 AM, [email protected] wrote:

> I don't like the idea of "education" but I love the idea of
> learning. Still, rejecting attachment to the concepts of teaching
> and education is a long, long way from suggesting "the equality of
> all elements."
BE:
You have the cause effect relationship reversed.
Because we are equal "every person should have the equal right,
freedom, tresources, and opportunities to learn what they want, when
they want, and how they want."
>
> Individual humans aren't equal. It's the favorite myth of the United
> States, but it's a myth, an idea, a principle and not an objective
> reality.
BE:
This depends on you definition of equal. We are equal under God, we
are equal under the law. We don't have equal amount of hair, our ages
aren't equal, our I.Q.s (what ever that means) are not equal, we are
not equally good at football, etc. etc.
Chaos, Complexity and Gaian theories imply a 'Gaian Paradigm' that will
replace the long standing 'dominator paradigm. The science suggests
that their is no hierarchy of value. the Cosmos, and Gaia (the Earth
and all its lifeforms) is a network equal interdependence among
everything that exists.

The e/t/s syndrome takes away our freedom to be what WE want to be.
Alternatives to education are needed to give us our freedom to learn.

If you would like more on the transition to a GaianParadigm see:
<http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Bill_Ellis>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Chaos, Complexity and Gaian theories imply a 'Gaian Paradigm' that
will
replace the long standing 'dominator paradigm. The science
suggests ...-=-

The "science"? So is there now bogus New-Age science to compete with
bogus "creationist science"?

-=-If you would like more on the transition to a GaianParadigm see:-=-

No thanks. I like the paradigm in which people live thoughtfully
with their families without trying to transition to made-up
paradigms, where people have to learn terms like "the e/t/s/
syndrome" to be able to read things like "The e/t/s syndrome takes
away our freedom to be what WE want to be."

There are millions of things I might want to be that are not
available to me. No "syndrome" caused that.

I would like to help people accept and enjoy being who they ARE,
where they are. Not only would I like to do that, I've been doing it
for a long time.

-=-The science suggests
that their is no hierarchy of value.-=-

I value spelling and language, and there IS a hierarchy of value,
within any belief system, within any life, from any one point of view.

Your belief system seems to value learning over education. Your
belief system (science, paradigm) seems to value equality over
comparative valuation. There's a clear fallacy in saying, "Because
X is important to me and I reject Y, I can assure you that all things
are equal." In that same statement you're assuring the reader that
your knowledge is higher/better/more expert than theirs, too.

The idea that all things are valuable to someone is a fine starting
place. The next level is "What do you value?"

This Gaian religion/science you discuss... does it think ozone is
more important than Right Guard Spray Deoderant? Is clear water
equal to radioactive sludge?

It might seem I'm going off topic, but part of deschooling is often
the parents learning to re-value things they had once categorized as
"educational" and "non-educational" or "good" and "junk."

Definitions and categories are quite central to the idea of
analytical skills (IQ-whatever-that-is often has to do with what
something is or isn't, or is like or isn't like, or is equal to or
not equal to).

Sandra






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Sandra Dodd

I just remembered I meant to address "depends on your definition of
equal."

Sandra Dodd:
> Individual humans aren't equal. It's the favorite myth of the United
> States, but it's a myth, an idea, a principle and not an objective
> reality.

Bill Ellis:

-=-This depends on you definition of equal. We are equal under God, we
are equal under the law. We don't have equal amount of hair, our ages
aren't equal, our I.Q.s (what ever that means) are not equal, we are
not equally good at football, etc. etc....The science suggests
that their is no hierarchy of value.-=-


That depends on your definition of "value."

My interpretation of your use of "equal" in the lofty phrase "the
equality of
all elements" is that one is not more valuable than another.

Gaia needs oxygen a LOT more than Gaia needs uranium.
People like gold and iron (a LOT), but Gaia's not getting a lot of
practical everyday use out of either one of them, as they're found in
nature.

And I'm guessing you didn't mean literally "elements" when you said
elements, but entities and concepts.
Not all concepts are created equal, either.

But back to the first statement about equality, and that.
We're NOT all equal under God. Pick and God and a place, and we can
talk about that. (I advise against picking that Old Testament God,
for a starting clue.)
We're not all equal under the law.
(Which country? Which "law"? What age or gender or history of the
person?)


Sandra





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queenjane555

>we are equal under the law.

Children are not equal under the law. Children have certain rights
(like being supported by another human being, given free education,
food, shelter)that adults don't have and adults have MANY rights
that children do not have.

In the US, most children do not have the right to:

Choose where they will live.
Choose what religion they will be (if any.)
Choose whether they will attend school, and if so, which school.
Choose whether they will be spanked, or choose discipline methods
utilized in their home.

I could go on.

And thats just in America....kids probably have it better in some
countries, and much much worse in others.

I've always found it more helpful when people talk about their own
kids, and how unschooling works in their home, rather than some
abstract theory. If i wouldve found the unschoolers, instead of the
TCSers(Taking Children Seriously)when my son was two, everything
would have been different for us much sooner. It would have been so
much more meaningful for me at that time (with a very spirited two
yr old and me at a loss how to parent him)to hear what parents were
*doing* with their own kids, rather than "Suppose there was a
hypothetical child named Joe, and Joe wants to climb on the TV
set..."

Katherine

Deb Lewis

***we are equal under the law.***

With some exceptions. <g>

The government still wants to tell some folks who they can marry.

If my husband leaves me, he won't be reported as a runaway and he won't be
sent to juvie, man.
My kid couldn't legally leave us without our consent.
If my husband hit me I could have him arrested. But it's legal for me to
hit my kid and if I was in Wyoming I could hit hard enough to bruise him
without it being abuse.
A person who is sixteen can consent to sex but a person who is fifteen
years, three hundred sixty days old can't.
My kid can't (legally) work a full time job yet.
Old people can vote until their so goofy and confused they think they're
sixteen again but people who are really sixteen can't vote.
And there's that whole compulsory attendance thing for certain people.

I don't believe we're all equal under the laws of nature, either. Exposed
to the elements a lost hunter will die from hypothermia while the deer he
was tracking goes happily on her way. I can't hold my breath under water
as long as a Beluga whale can. I can't live in super hot water like that
newly discovered little shrimp. If I climb to the roof and jump off, nature
will remind me that gravity is a harsh mistress but my raven friend will
have a different experience. The famous Harriet, a Galapagos tortoise,
lived to be a hundred and seventy six years old. I'll be darn lucky to
hang on until eighty.

I am hopeful, in my dreamy moments, that humans will eventually learn to
live on the earth with respect for all their fellow earthlings but I still
don't think that will make us all equal.

Deb Lewis

Sandra Dodd

-=-If I climb to the roof and jump off, nature
will remind me that gravity is a harsh mistress but my raven friend will
have a different experience. -=-


That's just beautiful writing.

Deb writes better than most people. That makes us not equal. That's
not fair. (Re-read that last little sentence to yourself in a very
whiney way, please, for full effect.)

When Gaia decides to clean house, people might be the first to go. I
think some people know that, which is why they're sucking up to what
they personify as an earth consciousness. They think Gaia loves them
best. It just becomes another religion. It becomes just another
religion.

Sandra




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Deb Lewis

***That's just beautiful writing.***

That's a nice thing to say but I was plagiarizing. "Gravity is a harsh
mistress" was a line spoken by my hero, The Tick. And I think he borrowed
and modified Robert Heinlein's, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."

Deb Lewis

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: d.lewis@...

***we are equal under the law.***

With some exceptions. <g>

<snip>

I am hopeful, in my dreamy moments, that humans will eventually learn
to
live on the earth with respect for all their fellow earthlings but I
still
don't think that will make us all equal.

-=-=-

DEB! Are you saying that *some* of us are more equal than others???

~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
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Sandra Dodd

-=-That's a nice thing to say but I was plagiarizing. "Gravity is a
harsh
mistress" was a line spoken by my hero, The Tick. And I think he
borrowed
and modified Robert Heinlein's, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."-=-

It was reference, not plagiarizing.
The Tick said nothing about jumping off your roof and a bird having a
different experience.

You're do demurely humble and honest.

Not just a good writer, but more humble and honest than most people.

I thought we were supposed to be equal.
Cheater.

Sandra

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Cally Brown

Sandra Dodd wrote:

>-=-If I climb to the roof and jump off, nature
>will remind me that gravity is a harsh mistress but my raven friend will
>have a different experience. -=-
>
>
>That's just beautiful writing.
>
Sandra's right - except I wouldn't have snipped just that bit - I would
have quoted the whole thing!

>Deb writes better than most people. That makes us not equal. That's
>not fair. (Re-read that last little sentence to yourself in a very
>whiney way, please, for full effect.)
>
I have no need of such instructions, Sandra - I have that whine down to
perfection - but quite often it's used around the time I read something
you wrote!

But that piece Deb wrote - that was so right but so poetical too -
thanks Deb.

>When Gaia decides to clean house, people might be the first to go. I
>think some people know that, which is why they're sucking up to what
>they personify as an earth consciousness. They think Gaia loves them
>best. It just becomes another religion. It becomes just another
>religion.
>
Yeah, I am interested in Gaian theory but lose interest when it becomes
a religious thing rather than a scientific thing. I haven't looked into
it much yet though.

Cally

Dawn Falbe

Katherine:



I was thinking about how children don't have equality when I was reading the
first post and then I saw yours and I thought great minds think alike. I
can often be heard asking my friends (with school kids) "is that was "joey"
(whatever name you want) wants to do?" A lot of times the parents look at
me with confusion when I ask that and usually ignore my question. I've even
had someone say "it's not important what they want it's only important they
do what I want them to do). Needless to say that's not someone I hang out
with anymore!!



Children have so few rights it's disgusting. I think about pedophiles and
what kind of prison term they get for loosing their lives (which is what
rape is) and in some states they get 2-3 years in prison. Yet the child has
to live with having been molested or raped and the consequences of such for
their lifetime.



Children are treated as second class citizens. My parents (who still don't
approve of homeschooling and especially child centered learning) believe
that children should do as they were told. As I like to remind my mother
"well that worked well for me didn't it" (sarcasm being the highest form of
wit for us British subjects)!!!



Namaste



Dawn\Temecula, CA - was Tucson, AZ



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Sandra Dodd

-=-Children are treated as second class citizens.-=-

They ARE second class citizens (if they're "citizens" at all; depends
on the definition--they're residents maybe, or natives, and for
passport purposes they might be citizens). But they can't vote or
sign contracts or drive (not saying they should, just sayin'...).

There are other classes of people without full rights, though, and
for a range of reasons, some very good.
Felons, convicted sex offenders, parolees, aliens (not space aliens,
resident aliens)... women...

Sandra

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