Cally Brown

I can't even count the times I've been asked this - and it astounds me
every time...

>I was asked more than once why I
>would homeschool if I didn't have to, and why a non Christian would
>homeschool.
>
Saying, 'because I love living and being with my kids' just doesn't cut
it with them. After astonishment, my next reaction is sadness - they are
homeschooling because they 'have to' and there seems no pleasure in it -
other than a sense of smug righteousness perhaps!

On a slightly different tack, a few weeks ago, because the christian
presence in our local support network had become all but overwhelming,
and I was afraid that new people wouldn't know it was possible to be a
non christian homeschooler (let alone unschooler!), I advertised an
Atheist and Agnostic gathering at my place: "bring your kids, your
lunch, a change of clothes (nothing bad here - it's winter and we live
in the country and kids get very muddy!) and a smile". I got an e-mail
phrased in pretend polite phrases asking, "whatever could there be for a
atheism (sic) to smile about?"

We do have a few christian unschoolers, but most seem to be
non-christian. Yet the few christian unschoolers I have known are some
of the most gentle, most respectful of their children.

But mostly it seems like Christians are astounded that I, an atheist
would choose to be at home with my children, while I am astounded that
they don't want to be!

I've had 3 incidents in the last week that have brought me face to face
with total disrespect for 'kids' and in 2 cases the 'kids' included
'kids' as old as 25!! At times I berate myself for my mistakes and my
failure to be the respectful, gentle person I'd love to be, but when I
come up against these sort of people it makes me realise that I have
come a very long way in the last 1/4 century since I had my first son. I
think I've reached the point now when my sadness for my own shortcomings
is less than my sadness for these people who don't even seem to have any
awareness that things could be different from their miserable
relationships!

Cally
in New Zealand , mother of 4 sons, aged 25,23,19,16

Sandra Dodd

-=-But mostly it seems like Christians are astounded that I, an atheist
would choose to be at home with my children, while I am astounded that
they don't want to be!-=-

When the best homeschooling information was to be found on a *Prodigy
bulletin board (Yeah, slim pickin's in those days), some moms were
speaking very harshly about their kids, how bratty and awful they
were, and I said I had read something inspiring that said that since
we don't know when or how Jesus will return, we should all treat our
children as though they might be Christ (and I was most consciously
thinking this *should* tweak the consciences of all the Christian
homeschoolers, who made up 80% of that group of 100 or so, and should
be able to recite "inasmuch as ye have done this for least of my
brethren, ye have done it for me" (which I might have misquoted, but
still, from memory I have the gist of it).

No, one of the badmouthingest of them shot back quickly "TRUST ME,
this child is not the second coming," and went on about how horrible
he was and how resistent he was to discipline.

So I thought how deeply ironic it was that here I was NOT waiting for
Jesus to return, yet treating my children as though they were the
direct offspring of God, which in most religions they are quite
considered to be, aren't they?

We're still in the French or no French topic, which is fine, but it
reminds me that in France religious talk like this seems to give
people the willies. (translate 'the willies'... the creeps.
Shivers. OOogie feelings. Hairs on arms stand up and people want
the conversation changed.)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-No, one of the badmouthingest of them shot back quickly "TRUST ME,
this child is not the second coming,"-=-

I JUST REMEMBERED.

The quote was

"TRUST ME,
this child is NOT the second coming. LOL"-=-

I forgot the caps and the LOL.

I shudder to imagine how his next ten years went compared to Kirby's.

Kirby is upstairs in the room above me, watching Lost.
Last night he was out playing drinking games until he got sick and
passed out on a friend's couch. That's not ideal. But I know where
he was and I knew at the time, and he knew I knew, and there was no
reason for sneakiness or shame. And he's home in his own home by
choice, at peace, and safe.

I survived the odd pressures of Christian Homeschoolers, and so did
Kirby indirectly.

Oh! People there used to make folders named "Christian..." this or
that on that message board. So not only was the place predominantly
curriculum-using folks (ABeka and Sonlight mostly), they would put
up folders designed to keep others out. So one day I started a
topic called "Heathen Homeschoolers," to discuss the problems of
secular homeschoolers. It got 90 posts in just half a day, and 60 or
more were from Christians just cranky that anyone would use a word
like "heathen" on what they clearly saw as their message board.

That's why when AOL's expansive-like-a-mall message areas came
available there was finally, for the first time, a separate place for
unschoolers to discuss unschooling. It was fantastic. Not as good
as what we have now, but it didn't suck. (Some kids get their mouths
washed out with soap for saying "sucks" and that sucks.)

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sandalmom

--- In [email protected], Cally Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
wrote:
>
---I can't even count the times I've been asked this - and it
astounds me
every time...
I was asked more than once why I
would homeschool if I didn't have to, and why a non Christian
would homeschool.

Saying, 'because I love living and being with my kids' just
doesn't cut it with them. After astonishment, my next reaction is
sadness - they are
homeschooling because they 'have to' and there seems no pleasure
in it - other than a sense of smug righteousness perhaps!---

Lately, I have been asked a lot by non-homeschoolers about why I
homeschool our three boys. We live in a school district which is
lauded for its test scores and general quality of education. As my
oldest gets older (10yo), people become more perplexed. Some of the
most recent remarks that leave me shaking my head are:

"You must be a saint."
"Wow, what alot of work THAT must be."
"Well, I'm in the school almost every day, so I stay involved that
way."
"I can't get my 1st grader to do her 15 minutes of homework, how can
you homeschool?"
"I could NEVER do that."

Obviously, most people assume that I do school-at-home. Many people
assume I am a Christian homeschooler. When I tell them that I
don't, and that I'm not, that usually leads to the question about
how could I spend all day with them and still be sane.

This is starting to bother me. The kids are playing some organized
soccer so there's lots of these random remarks at the sidelines.
Any snappy comebacks come to mind? I don't necessarily want to push
people away, but they feel free to give me a litany of reasons why
they choose to send Johnny to school. It's as if they have to
explain themselves so I know that they are righteous, good caring
parents too.

Really, any thoughts would be welcome. I'm tired of smiling and
nodding.

~Christa

Kathleen Whitfield

on 9/17/06 5:48 PM, Sandra Dodd at Sandra@... wrote:

>We're still in the French or no French topic, which is fine, but it
>reminds me that in France religious talk like this seems to give
>people the willies. (translate 'the willies'... the creeps.
>Shivers. OOogie feelings. Hairs on arms stand up and people want
>the conversation changed.)

I'm rather the same way.

The problem with religious talk is that it either degenerates into
proselytizing or bashing -- and I don't find either one an enlightening way
to converse. I don't have the pain in my life that some people attribute to
religion or a religious upbringing, although I can recognize that many
people have suffered from others using religion as a hammer.

Descriptions of "bad" people of particular faiths (or lack thereof) make my
teeth hurt as much as evangelicals wanting to discuss the state of my soul.
The bashing oftentimes comes across as its own form of evangelism, even when
that's not the conscious intent.

It happens on this and many other lists; it happens IRL. It's a personal pet
peeve. I have no interest in attempting to stop people on lists. I just
delete. In person, I either change the subject, attempt to add moderating
comments or extricate myself from the conversation.

Kathleen
in SoCal


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

judy

We also live in a school district that is considered one of the best
in the state, having all the bells and whistles, etc. and we are
also very involved in activities which put us in daily contact with
those that are very keen on the public school system here. My boys
are 14 and 11.

I've tried and tried to get my kids involved with a local
homeschool/unschool group and they resist it like the plague! I've
let them know it's available and some of the fun stuff that they do
and I've left it up to them whether we attend or not. So far, not.

The response that I fall back on the most, when inquiring
conventional school minds want to know is, "this lifestyle works
really well for our family."
When they start inquiring re. how long we will homeschool/unschool,
I tell them, "as long as it's working for us." Then some may take
it further and want some details on what we do....I'm honest and
will go into depth with those that seem TRULY interested in the
alternatives to public schools....many ask and don't really want to
hear the answers. I don't waste a lot of time or energy on
answering their questions, but tell them if they really want more
info, I can email them websites, links to lists, loan them books,
magazines, etc.
I am happy to spend the time with those that REALLY want to know.

Also, to those that think, "I'm a saint", etc.....my response is
usually very honest when I reply, "I don't like living by the
school's schedule and find that more difficult than enjoying my
children's company all day."

Hope this helps!
judy in AZ




--- In [email protected], "sandalmom"
<christa.mente@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Cally Brown <mjcmbrwn@>
> wrote:
> >
> ---I can't even count the times I've been asked this - and it
> astounds me
> every time...
> I was asked more than once why I
> would homeschool if I didn't have to, and why a non Christian
> would homeschool.
>
> Saying, 'because I love living and being with my kids' just
> doesn't cut it with them. After astonishment, my next reaction is
> sadness - they are
> homeschooling because they 'have to' and there seems no pleasure
> in it - other than a sense of smug righteousness perhaps!---
>
> Lately, I have been asked a lot by non-homeschoolers about why I
> homeschool our three boys. We live in a school district which is
> lauded for its test scores and general quality of education. As
my
> oldest gets older (10yo), people become more perplexed. Some of
the
> most recent remarks that leave me shaking my head are:
>
> "You must be a saint."
> "Wow, what alot of work THAT must be."
> "Well, I'm in the school almost every day, so I stay involved that
> way."
> "I can't get my 1st grader to do her 15 minutes of homework, how
can
> you homeschool?"
> "I could NEVER do that."
>
> Obviously, most people assume that I do school-at-home. Many
people
> assume I am a Christian homeschooler. When I tell them that I
> don't, and that I'm not, that usually leads to the question about
> how could I spend all day with them and still be sane.
>
> This is starting to bother me. The kids are playing some
organized
> soccer so there's lots of these random remarks at the sidelines.
> Any snappy comebacks come to mind? I don't necessarily want to
push
> people away, but they feel free to give me a litany of reasons why
> they choose to send Johnny to school. It's as if they have to
> explain themselves so I know that they are righteous, good caring
> parents too.
>
> Really, any thoughts would be welcome. I'm tired of smiling and
> nodding.
>
> ~Christa
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's as if they have to
explain themselves so I know that they are righteous, good caring
parents too. -=-

I think that's it.

You make them uncomfortable so they cover that uncomfortable spot
with some rattling on about how hard it must be and how virtuous you
are.

In terms of mammalian behavior, I think they're showing belly.
They're saying "You're bigger than me and know more about this; don't
hurt me."

So first of all, be gracious. You won.

Unless they say "Well I actually CARE about my children so I wouldn't
do that to them," or "That's fine for people who don't care whether
their kids go to college," you've won. Some messages are the "SNARL--
back off" mammal behavior.

But the messages you listed
You must be a saint."
"Wow, what alot of work THAT must be."
"Well, I'm in the school almost every day, so I stay involved that
way."
"I can't get my 1st grader to do her 15 minutes of homework, how can
you homeschool?"
"I could NEVER do that."

are "please don't hurt me" behaviors.

Maybe you could say "I really LIKE being with them."

If they want to know more maybe you could say "Part of what school
does is put a wall between parents and kids" Then THEY might just
want to nod and smile, or they might think about it and find ways to
be closer with their kids even though they're in school.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The problem with religious talk is that it either degenerates into
proselytizing or bashing -- and I don't find either one an
enlightening way
to converse. -=-

What I wrote about treating a child as though he might be the return
of Jesus was proselytizing or bashing?

People who eliminate ALL religious talk from thought or speech are
limiting their view of the world. To live as though religion didn't
even exist is to make believe.

It's possible to avoid thinking about it, but to (seemingly) suggest
that no one else think or talk about it either seems naive and
unrealistic.

The history of homeschooling in the U.S. told without mention of
religion would be more slanted than the slanted histories taught to
kids by some religious curriculae.

I know there are people who are unaware of the realities of
fundamentalist homeschooling. I've been in MANY conversations in
which liberal homeschoolers totally ignorant of the ugly sides said
"We all want the same things for our children," and things that
equated us all. But without knowing what they're really doing, it's
best for people to say nothing at all.

-=-can recognize that many
people have suffered from others using religion as a hammer.-=-

Hundreds of thousands are suffering today, homeschooled chidren,
being spanked for not finishing their math or for complaining that
they don't want to do "homework." Obedience is extended even to
cheerfulness. They are commanded to be cheerful and punished if
they're not.

Yet there are people who defend all homeschooling and call on people
like me to be united and "supportive."

-=-Descriptions of "bad" people of particular faiths (or lack
thereof) make my
teeth hurt as much as evangelicals wanting to discuss the state of my
soul.
The bashing oftentimes comes across as its own form of evangelism,
even when
that's not the conscious intent.-=-

If I've read their writings for years and someone else hasn't, how
fair and true is it for the other person to refer to my comments as
"bashing"?

As I was personally in the middle of that conversation in which
someone assured me her son was not the second coming, as a way to
justify her intent to continue to treat him entirely disrespectfully,
is it bashing for me to tell that story?

-=-I have no interest in attempting to stop people on lists. I just
delete. In person, I either change the subject, attempt to add
moderating
comments or extricate myself from the conversation.-=-

In cases as those above, would the moderating comments not be
intended to attempt to stop people, instead of a willingness to
accept that maybe those people actually know what they're talking about?

Saying "they spank" is not bashing. Saying "They're child-abusing
freaks who don't deserve to live" would be bashing, but things like
that aren't said on this list. There's that trap door I keep oiled.
Calling any discussion bashing is like calling any disagreement
"flaming." That happens here too. People will say they were flamed
because someone asked them a question.


If there's anyone here who doubts the cruelty inherent in some of
those homeschooling cultures, go and look there. Read a few issues
of Home Schooling Digest, or The Old Schoolhouse. Read the
editorials. Read the "Making them Do It" chapter of The Survivor's
Guide to Homeschooling. Read ANY of the pamphlets the Anabaptists
give out free at "inclusive" homeschooling conferences. I wish they
were online, but they're low-tech folks.

http://www.thehomeschoolmagazine.com/index.php
http://www.teachinghome.com/ The Teaching Home
http://www.homeschooltoday.com/ Homeschooling Today
http://www.homeschooldigest.com/ Home School Digest
(following two links will get you to this http://
www.anencouragingword.net/article5.htm which has a list of reasons a
woman has to stay with a husband who is abusive, and to submit to her
husband's will even if he's not Christian--is it about
homeschooling? Yes. And it says the women's movement put women in
bondage. So what will those families tell their children about what
girls can do when they grow up?)

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Whitfield

No, You're right. Those aren't the only choices.

It's certainly possible to tell stories about religious people that aren't
proselytizing or bashing.

Kathleen

on 9/18/06 1:02 PM, Sandra Dodd at Sandra@... wrote:

What I wrote about treating a child as though he might be the return
of Jesus was proselytizing or bashing?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sandalmom

Thanks for your responses. You helped me reframe it. And the image
of some of the other moms "showing belly" will definitely lighten it
up for me (bg).

I will be gracious and kind and maybe a little more emphatic that I am
not burdened by living with my children all day; that I actually enjoy
it! It's just not the language that's spoken there. It's a breach of
the code.

Thanks again.

~Christa