Perspective on Kids and Alcohol
Sandra Dodd
Sorry this didn't go through the right way. My fault.
From: "Sunday Cote" <sundaycote@...>
Date: August 27, 2006 6:34:41 PM MDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Perspective on Kids and Alcohol
Hi All,
Recently my 8 year old has become curious about alcohol. It's never
been a big deal in our family. My husband and I have an occasional beer
or glass of wine. Our children have never seen us (or anyone else for
that matter) intoxicated. But he's discovered that he loves the smell
of beer. The other night he was enjoying the smell of my beer and I
asked if he wanted a taste. I assumed that he'd think it was yucky.
Surprisingly he really liked the taste too. We've talked about how it
isn't good for his growing body and that there are laws about not
drinking under 21, but I've done it very casually without a fearful
tone. He accepts that it's an "adult" drink and doesn't really want to
drink it now. But he has said a couple of times that when he grows up
he will be able to drink beer. I don't want it to become something that
he can hardly wait to do. And yet my family of origin has a propensity
for alcoholism so I don't want to be TOO casual about it either. It's
funny because he says similar things about Teen rated video games and R
rated movies. He knows he can try them if he wants to, but has set his
own limits and has said he's not ready to view them. I guess it feels
different because he is setting his own limits on the video games where
as the State has actually imposed limits on alcohol use. Of course I
think there are legal age limits on X-Rated videos as well, but he
doesn't know about that yet! LOL
We practice radical unschooling and don't have limits on food, sleep,
TV, or other areas of our lives. I'm thinking now that I shouldn't have
told him about the drinking laws so that I wouldn't have set alcohol up
as the "forbidden fruit." But before I stick my foot in my mouth
further, I'd love to hear how you all have approached this subject with
your children.
Thanks,
Sunday
"To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves...and most of
us were taught as children that we could not be trusted." John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: "Sunday Cote" <sundaycote@...>
Date: August 27, 2006 6:34:41 PM MDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Perspective on Kids and Alcohol
Hi All,
Recently my 8 year old has become curious about alcohol. It's never
been a big deal in our family. My husband and I have an occasional beer
or glass of wine. Our children have never seen us (or anyone else for
that matter) intoxicated. But he's discovered that he loves the smell
of beer. The other night he was enjoying the smell of my beer and I
asked if he wanted a taste. I assumed that he'd think it was yucky.
Surprisingly he really liked the taste too. We've talked about how it
isn't good for his growing body and that there are laws about not
drinking under 21, but I've done it very casually without a fearful
tone. He accepts that it's an "adult" drink and doesn't really want to
drink it now. But he has said a couple of times that when he grows up
he will be able to drink beer. I don't want it to become something that
he can hardly wait to do. And yet my family of origin has a propensity
for alcoholism so I don't want to be TOO casual about it either. It's
funny because he says similar things about Teen rated video games and R
rated movies. He knows he can try them if he wants to, but has set his
own limits and has said he's not ready to view them. I guess it feels
different because he is setting his own limits on the video games where
as the State has actually imposed limits on alcohol use. Of course I
think there are legal age limits on X-Rated videos as well, but he
doesn't know about that yet! LOL
We practice radical unschooling and don't have limits on food, sleep,
TV, or other areas of our lives. I'm thinking now that I shouldn't have
told him about the drinking laws so that I wouldn't have set alcohol up
as the "forbidden fruit." But before I stick my foot in my mouth
further, I'd love to hear how you all have approached this subject with
your children.
Thanks,
Sunday
"To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves...and most of
us were taught as children that we could not be trusted." John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Long
I dont think you were wrong at all for telling your son that he needs to wait til he's 21. God forbid he drinks as a teen and gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone, or himself. Then YOU will be responsible because he's not of legal age. Good for you for telling him the rules about alcohol.
Jen L.
Cranston, RI
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Sorry this didn't go through the right way. My fault.
From: "Sunday Cote" <sundaycote@...>
Date: August 27, 2006 6:34:41 PM MDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Perspective on Kids and Alcohol
Hi All,
Recently my 8 year old has become curious about alcohol. It's never
been a big deal in our family. My husband and I have an occasional beer
or glass of wine. Our children have never seen us (or anyone else for
that matter) intoxicated. But he's discovered that he loves the smell
of beer. The other night he was enjoying the smell of my beer and I
asked if he wanted a taste. I assumed that he'd think it was yucky.
Surprisingly he really liked the taste too. We've talked about how it
isn't good for his growing body and that there are laws about not
drinking under 21, but I've done it very casually without a fearful
tone. He accepts that it's an "adult" drink and doesn't really want to
drink it now. But he has said a couple of times that when he grows up
he will be able to drink beer. I don't want it to become something that
he can hardly wait to do. And yet my family of origin has a propensity
for alcoholism so I don't want to be TOO casual about it either. It's
funny because he says similar things about Teen rated video games and R
rated movies. He knows he can try them if he wants to, but has set his
own limits and has said he's not ready to view them. I guess it feels
different because he is setting his own limits on the video games where
as the State has actually imposed limits on alcohol use. Of course I
think there are legal age limits on X-Rated videos as well, but he
doesn't know about that yet! LOL
We practice radical unschooling and don't have limits on food, sleep,
TV, or other areas of our lives. I'm thinking now that I shouldn't have
told him about the drinking laws so that I wouldn't have set alcohol up
as the "forbidden fruit." But before I stick my foot in my mouth
further, I'd love to hear how you all have approached this subject with
your children.
Thanks,
Sunday
"To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves...and most of
us were taught as children that we could not be trusted." John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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Jen L.
Cranston, RI
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Sorry this didn't go through the right way. My fault.
From: "Sunday Cote" <sundaycote@...>
Date: August 27, 2006 6:34:41 PM MDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Perspective on Kids and Alcohol
Hi All,
Recently my 8 year old has become curious about alcohol. It's never
been a big deal in our family. My husband and I have an occasional beer
or glass of wine. Our children have never seen us (or anyone else for
that matter) intoxicated. But he's discovered that he loves the smell
of beer. The other night he was enjoying the smell of my beer and I
asked if he wanted a taste. I assumed that he'd think it was yucky.
Surprisingly he really liked the taste too. We've talked about how it
isn't good for his growing body and that there are laws about not
drinking under 21, but I've done it very casually without a fearful
tone. He accepts that it's an "adult" drink and doesn't really want to
drink it now. But he has said a couple of times that when he grows up
he will be able to drink beer. I don't want it to become something that
he can hardly wait to do. And yet my family of origin has a propensity
for alcoholism so I don't want to be TOO casual about it either. It's
funny because he says similar things about Teen rated video games and R
rated movies. He knows he can try them if he wants to, but has set his
own limits and has said he's not ready to view them. I guess it feels
different because he is setting his own limits on the video games where
as the State has actually imposed limits on alcohol use. Of course I
think there are legal age limits on X-Rated videos as well, but he
doesn't know about that yet! LOL
We practice radical unschooling and don't have limits on food, sleep,
TV, or other areas of our lives. I'm thinking now that I shouldn't have
told him about the drinking laws so that I wouldn't have set alcohol up
as the "forbidden fruit." But before I stick my foot in my mouth
further, I'd love to hear how you all have approached this subject with
your children.
Thanks,
Sunday
"To trust children we must first learn to trust ourselves...and most of
us were taught as children that we could not be trusted." John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
Hey Sunday!
Had some thoughts about this...
Since the reality is that there is a law about the age one can drink alcohol
legally, I don't see any harm in sharing that information.
At the same time you can give him information about "why" there is this law.
You can give historical information and what your thoughts are about it.
Giving factual information about what happens to the body with alcohol would
be helpful to him I imagine.
As far as addiction goes, you can talk about the addiction in your family,
and how people made choices with alcohol and what some of the consequences
were/are. Not all at once, but over time when it fits. And not from a
fear-base of course, but with the same trusting attitude you carry when
discussing other topics as well.
It sounds like maybe this particular subject feels scary because of your
family's history...maybe you're worried about a genetic link? Even if there
is such a thing with your guy, the best thing he could get is information
within a rich unschooling life. I imagine the incidence of addiction is
much, much lower for people who had free and respected childhoods with
healthy family relationships. Which your guys are very blessed to have with
you :o)
We don't have much alcohol here cuz dh and I don't like much that way, but
when we've had beer or wine at dinner or at get-togethers, we've let our
kids try whatever was out. They usually didn't like the taste and didn't
seek it out again. Now as teenagers, they may be a little more interested,
but they don't seem to have an interest in "getting drunk", though they've
seen it many times on tv or movies, and have been in a couple of different
situations where other kids were drinking. Of course seeing someone wasted
is pretty good incentive to NOT want to do it.
Jacki
Had some thoughts about this...
Since the reality is that there is a law about the age one can drink alcohol
legally, I don't see any harm in sharing that information.
At the same time you can give him information about "why" there is this law.
You can give historical information and what your thoughts are about it.
Giving factual information about what happens to the body with alcohol would
be helpful to him I imagine.
As far as addiction goes, you can talk about the addiction in your family,
and how people made choices with alcohol and what some of the consequences
were/are. Not all at once, but over time when it fits. And not from a
fear-base of course, but with the same trusting attitude you carry when
discussing other topics as well.
It sounds like maybe this particular subject feels scary because of your
family's history...maybe you're worried about a genetic link? Even if there
is such a thing with your guy, the best thing he could get is information
within a rich unschooling life. I imagine the incidence of addiction is
much, much lower for people who had free and respected childhoods with
healthy family relationships. Which your guys are very blessed to have with
you :o)
We don't have much alcohol here cuz dh and I don't like much that way, but
when we've had beer or wine at dinner or at get-togethers, we've let our
kids try whatever was out. They usually didn't like the taste and didn't
seek it out again. Now as teenagers, they may be a little more interested,
but they don't seem to have an interest in "getting drunk", though they've
seen it many times on tv or movies, and have been in a couple of different
situations where other kids were drinking. Of course seeing someone wasted
is pretty good incentive to NOT want to do it.
Jacki
queenjane555
Seamus (almost 10) has been curious about alcohol recently, in
particular about how it feels to be drunk. I grew up in a home
without any alcohol (not even beer)as my father was a recovering
alcoholic. A couple of my brothers are alcoholic (one can go months
or years without slipping, the other is a drink-every-day-until-you-
die alcoholic.)
What i did was share my experiences with alcohol with my son,
openly. My sister also did that, just told him stories, mostly about
times of getting too drunk and making bad choices. I make sure he
knows that drinking in moderation is ok, drinking then driving never
ok, and that since he has genes that are more prone to alcoholism
(one grandparent out of four, neither parents, not too bad but ya
never know)he needs to be careful. My son is very into experiences,
in learning everything he can about life, and sometimes he thinks he
is more grown up than he is. So i think alcohol is something he
thinks he can handle. I'm uncomfortable letting him drink the
alcohol we have in the house (most of it is sweet stuff, like arbor
mist or mike's hard lemonade)although i did let him try a sip of the
remnants of my margarita after the ice had melted in the bottom.
When he went to his dad's he had some guinness, i wasnt too happy
about his father making a decision to give him alcohol without
consulting me, and although i don't think he truly liked the taste
he said he did. I really think he does equate drinking with a grown
up thing to do, which i guess it is given the restrictions in our
culture. If we were a family that regularly drank wine with dinner
or something, i think i would let him try it.
Mostly i try to give him factual info about how alcohol lowers
inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing, and is often not
such a good thing. That it makes you less in control of yourself if
you drink enough of it, that different types of alcohol have
different effects (wine vs liquor for example)and that how much you
weigh, or how well you tolerate it can effect how much you can drink
before getting drunk.
He went through a period where we were talking about drugs and
alcohol alot, he was very curious. He hasnt brought it up in quite
awhile, but he knows that the lines of communication are open. If i
found out he was drinking as a teenager, i wouldnt freak out or
anything, and he knows that. My big thing would be to call if you
need a ride, *thats* the one main thing i would stress. Seems to me
that the kids who aren't afraid of their parents flipping out are
the ones more likely to call for a ride, which is the most important
thing i think.
Katherine
particular about how it feels to be drunk. I grew up in a home
without any alcohol (not even beer)as my father was a recovering
alcoholic. A couple of my brothers are alcoholic (one can go months
or years without slipping, the other is a drink-every-day-until-you-
die alcoholic.)
What i did was share my experiences with alcohol with my son,
openly. My sister also did that, just told him stories, mostly about
times of getting too drunk and making bad choices. I make sure he
knows that drinking in moderation is ok, drinking then driving never
ok, and that since he has genes that are more prone to alcoholism
(one grandparent out of four, neither parents, not too bad but ya
never know)he needs to be careful. My son is very into experiences,
in learning everything he can about life, and sometimes he thinks he
is more grown up than he is. So i think alcohol is something he
thinks he can handle. I'm uncomfortable letting him drink the
alcohol we have in the house (most of it is sweet stuff, like arbor
mist or mike's hard lemonade)although i did let him try a sip of the
remnants of my margarita after the ice had melted in the bottom.
When he went to his dad's he had some guinness, i wasnt too happy
about his father making a decision to give him alcohol without
consulting me, and although i don't think he truly liked the taste
he said he did. I really think he does equate drinking with a grown
up thing to do, which i guess it is given the restrictions in our
culture. If we were a family that regularly drank wine with dinner
or something, i think i would let him try it.
Mostly i try to give him factual info about how alcohol lowers
inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing, and is often not
such a good thing. That it makes you less in control of yourself if
you drink enough of it, that different types of alcohol have
different effects (wine vs liquor for example)and that how much you
weigh, or how well you tolerate it can effect how much you can drink
before getting drunk.
He went through a period where we were talking about drugs and
alcohol alot, he was very curious. He hasnt brought it up in quite
awhile, but he knows that the lines of communication are open. If i
found out he was drinking as a teenager, i wouldnt freak out or
anything, and he knows that. My big thing would be to call if you
need a ride, *thats* the one main thing i would stress. Seems to me
that the kids who aren't afraid of their parents flipping out are
the ones more likely to call for a ride, which is the most important
thing i think.
Katherine
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
In the UK the law is that you can give your children alcohol from the age of 5. And while a pub cannot serve your child alcohol, you, the parent, can order a drink for them after they are a certain age (the thought at the minute with David and his brother in the house is that its 12 or 14). In the U.S., I'm certain, you can serve alcohol to your children when they are underage. And trying to find the laws on-line I found this article:http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2006/teaching-responsible-drinking.html which has this end paragraph:
--College student Jen Sherwin, a child of California winemakers, said she found that kids at school who had grown up in the most restrictive environments tended to get into the most trouble with alcohol. "It was absolutely insane. There was a lot of alcohol poisoning, a lot of kids had to get their stomachs pumped. People would drink 24/7," she said. "I had other friends up there from Napa Valley who didn't go overboard either, because we are used to being around wine, and the freedom of being able to drink wasn't overwhelming to us."--
While alcoholism is something to be wary of, it seems that choice still has an important role to play in drinking.
From a personal perspective, both Simon and Linnaea have had wine and mead and beer and hardish cider in sips usually. Simon likes cider that isn't very alcoholic (I think 2%) and Linnaea used to like really hoppy beer, but she doesn't anymore. They like to pretend to be drunk for a laugh. Last night Linnaea and Simon and their cousins were dancing and air guitaring to Black Sabbath and Linnaea was a backup singer who drank alot and turned into a zombie drunk by the third song (Iron Man). There is no history of alcoholism on either David's or my side of the family, but my family has a fairly Methodist relationship with drink, as little as possible to keep the Lord loving us. Both David and I drink most evenings. He'll have a beer or a glass of wine and I usually have a glass of wine while I cook, or watch David cooking. We've discovered that Norfolk has a tradition of micro-breweries (and have discovered that the Waynforths of olde were brewers in the region) so David will
probably start doing a little beer making soon since the supplies are readily available. It is not among the things that keeps me up nights. I am fairly confident that they have no tendency towards alcoholism and that they won't feel alcohol is something more than a nice accompaniment to dinner.
Schuyler
--College student Jen Sherwin, a child of California winemakers, said she found that kids at school who had grown up in the most restrictive environments tended to get into the most trouble with alcohol. "It was absolutely insane. There was a lot of alcohol poisoning, a lot of kids had to get their stomachs pumped. People would drink 24/7," she said. "I had other friends up there from Napa Valley who didn't go overboard either, because we are used to being around wine, and the freedom of being able to drink wasn't overwhelming to us."--
While alcoholism is something to be wary of, it seems that choice still has an important role to play in drinking.
From a personal perspective, both Simon and Linnaea have had wine and mead and beer and hardish cider in sips usually. Simon likes cider that isn't very alcoholic (I think 2%) and Linnaea used to like really hoppy beer, but she doesn't anymore. They like to pretend to be drunk for a laugh. Last night Linnaea and Simon and their cousins were dancing and air guitaring to Black Sabbath and Linnaea was a backup singer who drank alot and turned into a zombie drunk by the third song (Iron Man). There is no history of alcoholism on either David's or my side of the family, but my family has a fairly Methodist relationship with drink, as little as possible to keep the Lord loving us. Both David and I drink most evenings. He'll have a beer or a glass of wine and I usually have a glass of wine while I cook, or watch David cooking. We've discovered that Norfolk has a tradition of micro-breweries (and have discovered that the Waynforths of olde were brewers in the region) so David will
probably start doing a little beer making soon since the supplies are readily available. It is not among the things that keeps me up nights. I am fairly confident that they have no tendency towards alcoholism and that they won't feel alcohol is something more than a nice accompaniment to dinner.
Schuyler
----- Original Message -----
From: Jennifer Long
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Perspective on Kids and Alcohol
I don't think you were wrong at all for telling your son that he needs to wait til he's 21. God forbid he drinks as a teen and gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone, or himself. Then YOU will be responsible because he's not of legal age. Good for you for telling him the rules about alcohol.
Jen L.
Cranston, RIt as children that we could not be trusted." John Holt
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Sandra Dodd
Maybe it depends how strong your inhibitions and fears are, but I
think this is too mild:
-=-Mostly i try to give him factual info about how alcohol lowers
inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing, and is often not
such a good thing. That it makes you less in control of yourself if
you drink enough of it,-=-
I think you're less in control of yourself no matter how much mind-
altering matter you've imbibed. It ranges from one drink to
unconscious, but all along the range is "less in control" than
without it.
-=-l lowers inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing-=-
When would that be a good thing?
Seriously.
It can be fun to be tipsy, but is it "a good thing"?
Especially for parents, having had the experiences I have, especially
if both parents are drinking at the same time (which happened with us
only very occasionally--out to dance, which maybe happened once or
twice a year, and less as years went on, or a VERY occasional music
party with drinking, where they weren't going out anymore that
evening, and I only remember two of those).
Probably my morning perspective is affected by the fact that I'm
going to the funeral of the mom of some friends I grew up with. She
was always absolutely nice to me, nice to everyone as far as I know.
She was funny and interested in me and asked me REAL questions about
real me. If I asked her questions about when she was little in
Truchas (a little town in northern New Mexico) she gave answers she
knew would interest me. She was great. Bertha Martinez. She had a
brother who was a priest (monsignor at San Juan Pueblo for a long
time) and two sisters who were nuns (one's still living) and had lots
of great local religious art. She has other siblings hither and yon,
with kids, and it will be a big funeral. I'll be way in the back,
but thinking really sweet thoughts about her.
I think if parents set a good example of their kids, and really talk
to them plainly and honestly and directly, and they're nice to them,
things will be better than if any of those factors are missing.
-=-. My big thing would be to call if you
need a ride, *thats* the one main thing i would stress. Seems to me
that the kids who aren't afraid of their parents flipping out are
the ones more likely to call for a ride, which is the most important
thing i think. -=-
I tell my kids to call for a ride or spend the night where they are,
and come back the next day. Kirby has done more drinking than the
other two, and he has not, as far as I know (and Holly reports
things, conversationally, in detail) driven at all, ever, after
drinking. All three have been at parties where there was drinking,
and usually all three are there. Holly has had drinks at a party
where both of her older brothers were, and friends of theirs who know
and like her, and that's not NEARLY as scary as if she were with
relative strangers, or new friends, or was somewhere where we didn't
know the people and didn't even know she was there.
Often one of the kids in the group will totally abstain, to drive
home. A few times kids met here, went in one van, had a designated
driver and it turned out two or three abstained anyway, and then
drove that batch of kids back to our house where they all slept.
Nobody who drank had any reason to drive.
Curfews and punishments do more harm than the alcohol itself, I
think. Being sneaky (as others mentioned) does more damage.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think this is too mild:
-=-Mostly i try to give him factual info about how alcohol lowers
inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing, and is often not
such a good thing. That it makes you less in control of yourself if
you drink enough of it,-=-
I think you're less in control of yourself no matter how much mind-
altering matter you've imbibed. It ranges from one drink to
unconscious, but all along the range is "less in control" than
without it.
-=-l lowers inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing-=-
When would that be a good thing?
Seriously.
It can be fun to be tipsy, but is it "a good thing"?
Especially for parents, having had the experiences I have, especially
if both parents are drinking at the same time (which happened with us
only very occasionally--out to dance, which maybe happened once or
twice a year, and less as years went on, or a VERY occasional music
party with drinking, where they weren't going out anymore that
evening, and I only remember two of those).
Probably my morning perspective is affected by the fact that I'm
going to the funeral of the mom of some friends I grew up with. She
was always absolutely nice to me, nice to everyone as far as I know.
She was funny and interested in me and asked me REAL questions about
real me. If I asked her questions about when she was little in
Truchas (a little town in northern New Mexico) she gave answers she
knew would interest me. She was great. Bertha Martinez. She had a
brother who was a priest (monsignor at San Juan Pueblo for a long
time) and two sisters who were nuns (one's still living) and had lots
of great local religious art. She has other siblings hither and yon,
with kids, and it will be a big funeral. I'll be way in the back,
but thinking really sweet thoughts about her.
I think if parents set a good example of their kids, and really talk
to them plainly and honestly and directly, and they're nice to them,
things will be better than if any of those factors are missing.
-=-. My big thing would be to call if you
need a ride, *thats* the one main thing i would stress. Seems to me
that the kids who aren't afraid of their parents flipping out are
the ones more likely to call for a ride, which is the most important
thing i think. -=-
I tell my kids to call for a ride or spend the night where they are,
and come back the next day. Kirby has done more drinking than the
other two, and he has not, as far as I know (and Holly reports
things, conversationally, in detail) driven at all, ever, after
drinking. All three have been at parties where there was drinking,
and usually all three are there. Holly has had drinks at a party
where both of her older brothers were, and friends of theirs who know
and like her, and that's not NEARLY as scary as if she were with
relative strangers, or new friends, or was somewhere where we didn't
know the people and didn't even know she was there.
Often one of the kids in the group will totally abstain, to drive
home. A few times kids met here, went in one van, had a designated
driver and it turned out two or three abstained anyway, and then
drove that batch of kids back to our house where they all slept.
Nobody who drank had any reason to drive.
Curfews and punishments do more harm than the alcohol itself, I
think. Being sneaky (as others mentioned) does more damage.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm thinking now that I shouldn't have
told him about the drinking laws so that I wouldn't have set alcohol up
as the "forbidden fruit."-=-
But there ARE drinking laws.
How could you justify withholding important information like that?
It's good that you told him, but people do choose to break one law or another sometimes.
The grass in our back yard is over 6" tall, because it's going to seed and we WANT it to.
We had a non-working vehicle in our yard for years (illegal here) before we found someone
who wanted to fix it for charity.
Maybe it would be good to talk with him about what kinds of laws there are, with which
purposes. That can be a casual, ongoing discussion for years. Talk about prohibition,
when it was illegal for ANYone. Talk about other countries having different laws (and
other states, and other counties in some places).
I wouldn't talk about that all in one sitting.<g> But as it casually comes up, why not?
That's part of learning all about the world. And being able to choose to see that whiskey
tastes nasty is a whole different kind of learning than seeing pretty liquor commercials and
thinking it must be something sweet and nutritious. <g>
Sandra
told him about the drinking laws so that I wouldn't have set alcohol up
as the "forbidden fruit."-=-
But there ARE drinking laws.
How could you justify withholding important information like that?
It's good that you told him, but people do choose to break one law or another sometimes.
The grass in our back yard is over 6" tall, because it's going to seed and we WANT it to.
We had a non-working vehicle in our yard for years (illegal here) before we found someone
who wanted to fix it for charity.
Maybe it would be good to talk with him about what kinds of laws there are, with which
purposes. That can be a casual, ongoing discussion for years. Talk about prohibition,
when it was illegal for ANYone. Talk about other countries having different laws (and
other states, and other counties in some places).
I wouldn't talk about that all in one sitting.<g> But as it casually comes up, why not?
That's part of learning all about the world. And being able to choose to see that whiskey
tastes nasty is a whole different kind of learning than seeing pretty liquor commercials and
thinking it must be something sweet and nutritious. <g>
Sandra
queenjane555
>Well, why do people drink at all? Sometimes, i suppose its for the
> -=-l lowers inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing-=-
>
> When would that be a good thing?
> Seriously.
taste. But often, its to "relax." If i'm in a group situation, i tend
to be very shy. If i've had a drink, i'm less shy....so *for me*
that's a good thing. It allows me to be more social than i am
otherwise. My inhibitions (about talking, about being myself)are
lowered. If i consistently got *drunk* all the time, and didnt feel i
could possibly interact with others without it, it would NOT be a good
thing. As it is, i rarely drink at all (maybe once a year.) So yes,
i've told my son that a little alcohol CAN make you feel relaxed and
more easygoing (it can also make you more irritated and less patient),
but that there are other ways to achieve that without alcohol as well.
And that relying on any substance to make you feel a certain way can
create a dependancy (whether chemical or psychological.)
Katherine
queenjane555
> It can be fun to be tipsy, but is it "a good thing"?I guess everyone needs to decide for themselves what is "good", its
pretty subjective. But for me, yeah, if something is *fun* its a
pretty good thing. I have some fond memories of being tipsy, or even
drunk, and some not so fond memories. Sometimes its fun, sometimes
not, and sometimes what seems like good fun at the time ends up
being very not-fun the next morning. I've shared alot of this with
my son. My sister especially shared alot of her so-drunk-she-missed-
entire-concerts-because-she-was-puking stories from high school.
> Especially for parents, having had the experiences I have,Well, yeah, not a good set up, if that means both parents are really
>especially if both parents are drinking at the same time
tipsy/drunk and having to take care of children. But if that means
both parents are drinking a glass of wine at dinner, I dont think
its necessarily a big deal. Its not something I do, I only drink
about once a year if that nowadays. But "parents drinking" brings up
a lot of bad stuff for people when parents drinking meant kids got
neglected or abused. My niece, whose father is a serious lifer
alcoholic and whose parents scream and yell at each other all the
time, alcohol probably will only mean negative things. My son won't
have the same associations.
Katherine
queenjane555
>And being able to choose to see that whiskeyWhen i was in high school, a friend stole some liquor from her mom,
> tastes nasty is a whole different kind of learning than seeing
>pretty liquor commercials and thinking it must be something sweet
>and nutritious. <g>
and we drove around thinking we'd drink some of it. I think it was
whiskey. Oh...my....god....it was terrible! We had no idea. So we
didnt drink of it, just stowed it in my trunk so she could take it
back.
A few days later, my dad is working on my car, and finds the
bottle!!! Yikes. My friend concocted some story to tell my mom about
how it was a gift for her aunt and she left it in my trunk and she'd
be sure to come right over and get it. I don't think my mom bought
that story, but she acted like she did. She was fond of saying
things like "I know you're too smart to be drinking..."
I guess you have to be a cowboy to drink whiskey? <g>
Katherine
Sylvia Toyama
> -=-l lowers inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing-=-*****
>
> When would that be a good thing?
> Seriously.
For me it's more about relaxing, too. In my late teens and early 20's I drank a lot, and it did get in the way of my living a healthy life. It did lower my inhibitions in dangerous ways. And for about 15 yrs I didn't drink at all -- stopped cold turkey on New year's 88 (after two years of occasional drinking). I only started social drinking again in '02. Now, I usually have a bottle of wine in the fridge and will have a glass or two a week.
I enjoy it because it does help me relax. I tend to carry all the stress in my muscles and it becomes a cycle of stress causing pain, pain causing more stress. Often a glass of wine will relax me just enough to take the edge off the intensity. It lets me stop the obsession that's always part of stress for me. It lets me let go of the need to control things I really can't fix or solve, which is a good thing, so sometimes giving up a bit of control is a good thing.
As to how to deal with it with kids, I think that sometimes it varies from kid to kid. My oldest son gets high more often than I'd like, but his life at 21 is so much less a mess than mine was at that age, that I'm just relieved. My worries for him are that he comes from addiction issues on all 4 sides of his family, so I know his risk is greater. One comfort to me is that his solution to the topic of driving high or drunk is that he doesn't own a car, or have a license, tho he did in the past. This way, he's removed for himself the temptation to drive high. If he gets an urge to go out while high, he has no choice but to walk. Gotta say, that's more responsible than most folks I knew at 21.
My brother is a life-long alcoholic -- started drinking at 8yo -- he'll never change. He drives drunk, screws up his life (and his kids' lives too) but that doesn't have to be my kids' fate, just because they share some genetic material. It's hard to watch, even harder to feel powerless to help him or his kids, but it's his choice. It is a choice, because even tho alcholism is a disease, one choses to drink. I also know the pain that led my brother to start drinking, so I can understand how he got there. It's something I'm committed to avoid for my kids - the pain.
I do think the genetic risk is a valid concern, but I don't think anyone becomes an addict/alcoholic without some real dysfunction in his/her life. Addiction and alcholism are forms of self-medication, efforts to treat pain in a person's life.
Dh doesn't drink at all, because he's allergic to liquor (along with a host of other things, I think it's really about mold). Andy has asked to have a drink of wine, but at one sniff he has no desire to drink at all -- not a surprise knowing Andy. Dan loves wine, but only sweet wine, and has no interest in beer. He enjoys sweet drinks -- coolers and the like. I share with him when he asks, but keep it to a sip or two because he's little.
I think it's a mistake to restrict alcohol under age 21 across the board. If my kid are going to get drunk and/or do something stupid, I'd much rather it be while they're young enough that I can help them with the legal end of things. Once a person is 21, s/he's on their own legally and the stakes are getting higher all the time.
I think the single best thing dh and I can do to prevent drinking/drug problems for our kids is to give them as joyous a life as we can, filled with love and beauty. Kids who know they are loved and can always turn to us when life hurts, are less likely to need to self-medicate.
Sylvia
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra@...
When would that be a good thing?
Seriously.
It can be fun to be tipsy, but is it "a good thing"?
-=-=-=-
When I went to Germany in my junior year abroad, Frau Hayden took us
every night to a weinstuebe. No one *had* to drink; but it was, in
fact, encouraged. A bunch of 20 strangers thrown together in a strange
land. She wanted us to chat among ourselves, get to know each other.
Even at the time, I thought it was a great idea. I don't remember
anyone actually getting blotto, but it did loosen our tongues a lot.
Half of us were frightened rabbits. The other half just pretended not
to be! <G> It really helped a lot.
It also enabled us to be less inhibited with tthe foreign
language---to waiters and each other. "Noch ein Glas Wein, bitte"
doesn't sound too bad after the *first* glass. <g>
Plus it was culturally expected. Most of us were 20, two years above
the legal age in the US at the time. A few older, a few younger. But in
Europe, it's not this weird freaky GOTTA-GET-PLASTERED-EVERY-NIGHT
phenomenon we have here in the US. It's no big deal.
It *was* a good thing.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: Sandra@...
When would that be a good thing?
Seriously.
It can be fun to be tipsy, but is it "a good thing"?
-=-=-=-
When I went to Germany in my junior year abroad, Frau Hayden took us
every night to a weinstuebe. No one *had* to drink; but it was, in
fact, encouraged. A bunch of 20 strangers thrown together in a strange
land. She wanted us to chat among ourselves, get to know each other.
Even at the time, I thought it was a great idea. I don't remember
anyone actually getting blotto, but it did loosen our tongues a lot.
Half of us were frightened rabbits. The other half just pretended not
to be! <G> It really helped a lot.
It also enabled us to be less inhibited with tthe foreign
language---to waiters and each other. "Noch ein Glas Wein, bitte"
doesn't sound too bad after the *first* glass. <g>
Plus it was culturally expected. Most of us were 20, two years above
the legal age in the US at the time. A few older, a few younger. But in
Europe, it's not this weird freaky GOTTA-GET-PLASTERED-EVERY-NIGHT
phenomenon we have here in the US. It's no big deal.
It *was* a good thing.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 28, 2006, at 2:21 AM, ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH wrote:
didn't see my college-age kids who have grown up in a home with no
alcohol and who still do not drink and never intend to do so.
My dh and I do not drink or serve any alcohol at our house. We don't
badmouth anybody who does - lots of our family members and close
friends drink occasionally and that's fine with us - but we choose to
not have it in our lives at all. Our reason is that we feel that our
purpose in life is to be MORE aware, more conscious, more mindful -
and alcohol has a known negative impact on the brain - even in low
amounts it causes a reduced ability to concentrate, reduced
coordination, slower reflexes, poorer reaction time. We just don't
want to do that to ourselves - not on purpose, anyway.
I have two daughters in college who go to lots of parties - they pick
and choose which parties to go to based on how much alcohol they
think will be involved. ALL parties have alcohol - but some parties
seem to be just for the purpose of everybody getting drunk, while
other parties will have much less drinking and at least a small group
of nondrinkers. My daughters find the "everybody is getting drunk"
parties to be very distressing - they don't like seeing the people
they know acting like idiots, doing stupid things, talking with
slurred speech, being boorish and obnoxious. So, if they think the
drinking is getting people to that point, they leave. Roxana left
early from a party just this last Saturday night - she stayed until
about 11 and then the drinking had gotten started in earnest and she
wasn't having fun anymore. My kids will not get in the car with a
driver who had been drinking - not even after one drink (which is
enough to impair driving ability - and this includes just one beer or
one glass of wine). So - I'm always on call - and have often picked
them up from parties and even picked up their friends who had been
drinking and needed rides home.
I always assumed my kids would try drinking and try smoking pot - and
Roya has tried them. She drank a couple of big cups full of some kind
of whiskey, got sick and threw up. She was VERY embarrassed and that
was enough for her. She didn't like marijuana because she didn't like
feeling out of control. Roxana has tasted some alcohol, but not drunk
enough to feel the effects. She may still try it - but she won't ever
do it on a regular basis.
For a few years we hung out with a group of homeschoolers with
parents who engaged in lots of social drinking, not sure if they were
drinking otherwise. Recently my daughters went to a "reunion" of a
bunch of the now-young adults who used to be part of that group - and
my girls were suprized to discover that these kids were all into
drinking as "what you do" at a party. Mine left pretty early - it
just isn't much fun to be around intoxicated people, unless you're
intoxicated, too.
That makes us a bunch of stick-in-the-muds, I suppose. But that's
okay with me - I have plenty of friends and a happy and joyful life
without alcohol. And it has NOT, in fact, turned my kids into idiots
who would act like the person described in the paragraph I quoted
above. For parents who do drink, I think there is an issue of
restricting kids from something that the adults in their families are
doing. If my kids wanted to drink alcohol, they'd say so and they
could do it - we would support that interest. But they're not in an
environment where alcohol looks enticing to them - they don't see
their parents drinking and having fun with it, while they're deprived
and told they have to wait. And they've seen how drinking adults get
overly loud and kind of obnoxious in various ways - so they don't
want that for themselves. They know why people drink - that it is fun
and loosens up inhibitions and so on. But they're also pretty clear
that it doesn't seem worth it, to them.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> --College student Jen Sherwin, a child of California winemakers,Might be a case of her seeing what she wants to see. She definitely
> said she found that kids at school who had grown up in the most
> restrictive environments tended to get into the most trouble with
> alcohol. "It was absolutely insane. There was a lot of alcohol
> poisoning, a lot of kids had to get their stomachs pumped. People
> would drink 24/7," she said. "I had other friends up there from
> Napa Valley who didn't go overboard either, because we are used to
> being around wine, and the freedom of being able to drink wasn't
> overwhelming to us."--
didn't see my college-age kids who have grown up in a home with no
alcohol and who still do not drink and never intend to do so.
My dh and I do not drink or serve any alcohol at our house. We don't
badmouth anybody who does - lots of our family members and close
friends drink occasionally and that's fine with us - but we choose to
not have it in our lives at all. Our reason is that we feel that our
purpose in life is to be MORE aware, more conscious, more mindful -
and alcohol has a known negative impact on the brain - even in low
amounts it causes a reduced ability to concentrate, reduced
coordination, slower reflexes, poorer reaction time. We just don't
want to do that to ourselves - not on purpose, anyway.
I have two daughters in college who go to lots of parties - they pick
and choose which parties to go to based on how much alcohol they
think will be involved. ALL parties have alcohol - but some parties
seem to be just for the purpose of everybody getting drunk, while
other parties will have much less drinking and at least a small group
of nondrinkers. My daughters find the "everybody is getting drunk"
parties to be very distressing - they don't like seeing the people
they know acting like idiots, doing stupid things, talking with
slurred speech, being boorish and obnoxious. So, if they think the
drinking is getting people to that point, they leave. Roxana left
early from a party just this last Saturday night - she stayed until
about 11 and then the drinking had gotten started in earnest and she
wasn't having fun anymore. My kids will not get in the car with a
driver who had been drinking - not even after one drink (which is
enough to impair driving ability - and this includes just one beer or
one glass of wine). So - I'm always on call - and have often picked
them up from parties and even picked up their friends who had been
drinking and needed rides home.
I always assumed my kids would try drinking and try smoking pot - and
Roya has tried them. She drank a couple of big cups full of some kind
of whiskey, got sick and threw up. She was VERY embarrassed and that
was enough for her. She didn't like marijuana because she didn't like
feeling out of control. Roxana has tasted some alcohol, but not drunk
enough to feel the effects. She may still try it - but she won't ever
do it on a regular basis.
For a few years we hung out with a group of homeschoolers with
parents who engaged in lots of social drinking, not sure if they were
drinking otherwise. Recently my daughters went to a "reunion" of a
bunch of the now-young adults who used to be part of that group - and
my girls were suprized to discover that these kids were all into
drinking as "what you do" at a party. Mine left pretty early - it
just isn't much fun to be around intoxicated people, unless you're
intoxicated, too.
That makes us a bunch of stick-in-the-muds, I suppose. But that's
okay with me - I have plenty of friends and a happy and joyful life
without alcohol. And it has NOT, in fact, turned my kids into idiots
who would act like the person described in the paragraph I quoted
above. For parents who do drink, I think there is an issue of
restricting kids from something that the adults in their families are
doing. If my kids wanted to drink alcohol, they'd say so and they
could do it - we would support that interest. But they're not in an
environment where alcohol looks enticing to them - they don't see
their parents drinking and having fun with it, while they're deprived
and told they have to wait. And they've seen how drinking adults get
overly loud and kind of obnoxious in various ways - so they don't
want that for themselves. They know why people drink - that it is fun
and loosens up inhibitions and so on. But they're also pretty clear
that it doesn't seem worth it, to them.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
venus
On Monday 28 August 2006 2:02 pm, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
people like this young woman from California is referring to when she speaks
of children who grow up to consume alcohol because "they can".
beautifully. These parents drank recreationally quite a bit. The kids were
shown "it's fun" and also shown "only us adults get to do it". That left
them waiting till the could get away with it (so to speak) and they did it a
lot. If children are shown it's a normal part of life, you can choose to do
it or not, but if you do, like anything else it should not be done in excess;
then they handle it more appropriately (in general, there are always
exceptions).
My parents rarely drank (maybe on New Year's eve) and always told me if I was
planning to try drinking it should be done at home where I was supervised and
not with my friends (who knows what's being served, who would be trying to
drive, etc). I felt respected and since I knew I could if I wanted to I
never felt an urge. When I turned 21 I had a few nights where I had white
wine at dinner or something, but never partied or drank heavily and within 6
months I made the choice to start a family and have been "unable" to drink
alcohol since then. I don't miss it and know how to handle it if I am ever
in a position of choosing to have a drink again. In my mind it was the ideal
way of having it presented to me as a child and definitely the way I will
handle it with my children.
Brande
> Might be a case of her seeing what she wants to see. She definitelyI think you are teaching by example and that is not necessarily what is what
> didn't see my college-age kids who have grown up in a home with no
> alcohol and who still do not drink and never intend to do so.
people like this young woman from California is referring to when she speaks
of children who grow up to consume alcohol because "they can".
> For a few years we hung out with a group of homeschoolers withI think this is what she is referring to, and you showed the point
> parents who engaged in lots of social drinking, not sure if they were
> drinking otherwise. Recently my daughters went to a "reunion" of a
> bunch of the now-young adults who used to be part of that group - and
> my girls were suprized to discover that these kids were all into
> drinking as "what you do" at a party. Mine left pretty early - it
> just isn't much fun to be around intoxicated people, unless you're
> intoxicated, too.
beautifully. These parents drank recreationally quite a bit. The kids were
shown "it's fun" and also shown "only us adults get to do it". That left
them waiting till the could get away with it (so to speak) and they did it a
lot. If children are shown it's a normal part of life, you can choose to do
it or not, but if you do, like anything else it should not be done in excess;
then they handle it more appropriately (in general, there are always
exceptions).
My parents rarely drank (maybe on New Year's eve) and always told me if I was
planning to try drinking it should be done at home where I was supervised and
not with my friends (who knows what's being served, who would be trying to
drive, etc). I felt respected and since I knew I could if I wanted to I
never felt an urge. When I turned 21 I had a few nights where I had white
wine at dinner or something, but never partied or drank heavily and within 6
months I made the choice to start a family and have been "unable" to drink
alcohol since then. I don't miss it and know how to handle it if I am ever
in a position of choosing to have a drink again. In my mind it was the ideal
way of having it presented to me as a child and definitely the way I will
handle it with my children.
Brande
Sandra Dodd
-=-If i've had a drink, i'm less shy....so *for me*
that's a good thing. It allows me to be more social than i am
otherwise. My inhibitions (about talking, about being myself)are
lowered. -=-
AH! Well that's honestly a legitimate reason. Thanks.
I myself probably need to keep all the inhibitions I have. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that's a good thing. It allows me to be more social than i am
otherwise. My inhibitions (about talking, about being myself)are
lowered. -=-
AH! Well that's honestly a legitimate reason. Thanks.
I myself probably need to keep all the inhibitions I have. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Even at the time, I thought it was a great idea. I don't remember
anyone actually getting blotto, but it did loosen our tongues a lot.
Half of us were frightened rabbits. The other half just pretended not
to be! <G> It really helped a lot.-=-
Another good reason.
I'm glad there were good reasons. I was looking at the world through
the lens of memories of teen years, when my friend Dodi's mom was
pretty much nicer to me than my own mom was.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anyone actually getting blotto, but it did loosen our tongues a lot.
Half of us were frightened rabbits. The other half just pretended not
to be! <G> It really helped a lot.-=-
Another good reason.
I'm glad there were good reasons. I was looking at the world through
the lens of memories of teen years, when my friend Dodi's mom was
pretty much nicer to me than my own mom was.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liz in AZ
> Another good reason.Okay, one more then <g>. Before I had my second baby I had a lot of
>
> I'm glad there were good reasons.
false labor. I was walking all over the neighborhood, trying to get
productive labor to start, but all I had was contractions with no
dilation. My midwife said that I needed to chill out, that my body
thought I was trying to walk to the next village and it was going to
try to wait until I got there to get down to business. Her Rx was 1
beer or 1 glass of wine and some quiet time with my husband.
Worked like a charm--unless it was Gwyneth Paltrow in Emma that did it!
Liz in AZ
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2006, at 10:18 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
but my college roommate suggested paying attention to how I acted at
parties after I'd had a few and then just do that without the
alcohol. That worked :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-l lowers inhibitions, which can sometimes be a good thing-=-I can't remember if I'd mentioned being shy or nervous at parties,
>
> When would that be a good thing?
but my college roommate suggested paying attention to how I acted at
parties after I'd had a few and then just do that without the
alcohol. That worked :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My midwife said that I needed to chill out, that my body
thought I was trying to walk to the next village and it was going to
try to wait until I got there to get down to business. Her Rx was 1
beer or 1 glass of wine and some quiet time with my husband.-=-
Was it inhibitions keeping your contractions from coming?
My question wasn't when alcohol might be beneficial, but when it
might be good to have lowered inhibitions.
Both have been answered, though. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thought I was trying to walk to the next village and it was going to
try to wait until I got there to get down to business. Her Rx was 1
beer or 1 glass of wine and some quiet time with my husband.-=-
Was it inhibitions keeping your contractions from coming?
My question wasn't when alcohol might be beneficial, but when it
might be good to have lowered inhibitions.
Both have been answered, though. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]