ideas, facts, thoughts, and feelings
Sandra Dodd
-=-~~Okay, I forgot that ideas facts and thoughts are generally
preferred
over feelings on this group. My only intention was to share another
perspective~~
-=-that's because feelings are not reliable! feelings do not always
express
the truth of the matter. -=-
Right. Others' feelings won't really help me with my kids.
I'm not sure something that's just "a feeling" even qualifies as
"perspective."
If there's nothing objective or logical about it, it's not
"perception" in the way that a viewpoint and its relationship to the
objects out there is a perception. Feelings are involved in the
analysis of perception.
Ideas are what we can discuss.
Facts help sometimes, if what you mean by "facts" is gathered data
and statistics. Sometimes those facts just help us understand how to
interpret weird "statements of fact."
If someone says "We got a horse," I would really like to trust that
that is a fact. It's not a creative writing list. When I say "Marty
has a job," that's an absolute fact. Those anecdotes of daily lives,
the stories we share, are necessary to this kind of discussion.
We're not discussing the theories so much as we're showing how the
theories play out in real ways.
We can't share thoughts, just words.
-=-If my daughter wants to have a
TV and she asks for one, then she'll get it. Just like she gets
raspberry popsicles when she wants one, even though I find them
repulsive and wouldnt have one myself.-=-
If she knows you find them repulsive, as WE all know you find them
repulsive, she will feel that she's eating something you wish she
wasn't eating. That's not good for digestion. That's not good for
mother-love. That's not good for ANYthing, really. Can't you take
joy in the fact that she likes them? Could you take joy in her
enjoyment of TV?
-=-I'm just a parent who is genuinely committed to unschooling, and I
join these groups for support and learning. I didnt come here to
criticize you, there's no need to be so defensive.
-=-
It's a hard concept to consider, but this isn't a support group, in
the traditional sense. People here will support you becoming more
mindful on your daughter's behalf, and will help you learn more about
unschooling, but few will support your desire to defend your personal
traumas and fears. Undo them! Examine them. Lay them out to dry.
Don't save them and recite them and justify them. That advice is for
your daughter's sake first, for unschooling's sake, but it WILL
benefit you. If you think of your daughter first, the benefit to you
will be huge. If you think of your own feelings and revulsions
first, it will harm you, her, the relationship you could share, and
unschooling.
-=-I didnt come here to criticize you, there's no need to be so
defensive.-=-
It's not about me. My family's unschooling life is securely thriving.
I WILL defend unschooling. I will defend those things that make it
work, and when things that don't help are brought to this list, I
will shine a light on them if someone else doesn't beat me to it.
I will defend the time people spend helping others here, and will
defend the integrity of the list and of my site. It's not personal,
it's philosophical.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
preferred
over feelings on this group. My only intention was to share another
perspective~~
-=-that's because feelings are not reliable! feelings do not always
express
the truth of the matter. -=-
Right. Others' feelings won't really help me with my kids.
I'm not sure something that's just "a feeling" even qualifies as
"perspective."
If there's nothing objective or logical about it, it's not
"perception" in the way that a viewpoint and its relationship to the
objects out there is a perception. Feelings are involved in the
analysis of perception.
Ideas are what we can discuss.
Facts help sometimes, if what you mean by "facts" is gathered data
and statistics. Sometimes those facts just help us understand how to
interpret weird "statements of fact."
If someone says "We got a horse," I would really like to trust that
that is a fact. It's not a creative writing list. When I say "Marty
has a job," that's an absolute fact. Those anecdotes of daily lives,
the stories we share, are necessary to this kind of discussion.
We're not discussing the theories so much as we're showing how the
theories play out in real ways.
We can't share thoughts, just words.
-=-If my daughter wants to have a
TV and she asks for one, then she'll get it. Just like she gets
raspberry popsicles when she wants one, even though I find them
repulsive and wouldnt have one myself.-=-
If she knows you find them repulsive, as WE all know you find them
repulsive, she will feel that she's eating something you wish she
wasn't eating. That's not good for digestion. That's not good for
mother-love. That's not good for ANYthing, really. Can't you take
joy in the fact that she likes them? Could you take joy in her
enjoyment of TV?
-=-I'm just a parent who is genuinely committed to unschooling, and I
join these groups for support and learning. I didnt come here to
criticize you, there's no need to be so defensive.
-=-
It's a hard concept to consider, but this isn't a support group, in
the traditional sense. People here will support you becoming more
mindful on your daughter's behalf, and will help you learn more about
unschooling, but few will support your desire to defend your personal
traumas and fears. Undo them! Examine them. Lay them out to dry.
Don't save them and recite them and justify them. That advice is for
your daughter's sake first, for unschooling's sake, but it WILL
benefit you. If you think of your daughter first, the benefit to you
will be huge. If you think of your own feelings and revulsions
first, it will harm you, her, the relationship you could share, and
unschooling.
-=-I didnt come here to criticize you, there's no need to be so
defensive.-=-
It's not about me. My family's unschooling life is securely thriving.
I WILL defend unschooling. I will defend those things that make it
work, and when things that don't help are brought to this list, I
will shine a light on them if someone else doesn't beat me to it.
I will defend the time people spend helping others here, and will
defend the integrity of the list and of my site. It's not personal,
it's philosophical.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elamajikfaerie
okay,
I DID say that I feel TV is evil, but I ALSO qualified that by saying
not "evil" in the "devil" sense, but just something bad for me,
personally. Not bad for anyone else, not bad for my daughter, not bad
for unschooling. Sorry if anyone here assumed that was what I meant.
I DID point out that I realised (too late) that I shouldn't really be
posting feelings here in that way.
I definately NEVER said that I project anything onto my daughter if
she eats popsicles or anything else for that matter, just that *I*
personally wouldnt eat them. I also dont like Brussels Sprouts ;-) I
eat a bunch of things my daughter doesn't like, she doesn't have to
eat them. and vice versa, no issue.
SO:
my question is: Is is really such an "unschooling no-no" to have a
home without a TV?
To be honest, I dont think it is, I have a long experience living in
the third world and seen loads of families who are "unschooling"
without calling it that. They're all just doing what everyone did
before universal schooling was invented. and the vast majority of
them do NOT have TV. many dont even have electricity, let alone
computers with internet access. Many of these kids, without any
school, speak half a dozen languages, read and write, and have skills
that astound me (like that 4 year old who drives in India).
Even here in the West, lots of families dont have a computer at home,
they have to go to their local library to get online, they dont have
a swimming pool, they have to make do with the public one, they dont
have a yard with a garden or an encyclopedia or a lot of books or all
kinds of things. They get this stuff outside the home, and that
doesnt mean it's being "restricted".
So that's where I'm at now, I am, in all honesty, open to hear your
responses.
Ela
I DID say that I feel TV is evil, but I ALSO qualified that by saying
not "evil" in the "devil" sense, but just something bad for me,
personally. Not bad for anyone else, not bad for my daughter, not bad
for unschooling. Sorry if anyone here assumed that was what I meant.
I DID point out that I realised (too late) that I shouldn't really be
posting feelings here in that way.
I definately NEVER said that I project anything onto my daughter if
she eats popsicles or anything else for that matter, just that *I*
personally wouldnt eat them. I also dont like Brussels Sprouts ;-) I
eat a bunch of things my daughter doesn't like, she doesn't have to
eat them. and vice versa, no issue.
SO:
my question is: Is is really such an "unschooling no-no" to have a
home without a TV?
To be honest, I dont think it is, I have a long experience living in
the third world and seen loads of families who are "unschooling"
without calling it that. They're all just doing what everyone did
before universal schooling was invented. and the vast majority of
them do NOT have TV. many dont even have electricity, let alone
computers with internet access. Many of these kids, without any
school, speak half a dozen languages, read and write, and have skills
that astound me (like that 4 year old who drives in India).
Even here in the West, lots of families dont have a computer at home,
they have to go to their local library to get online, they dont have
a swimming pool, they have to make do with the public one, they dont
have a yard with a garden or an encyclopedia or a lot of books or all
kinds of things. They get this stuff outside the home, and that
doesnt mean it's being "restricted".
So that's where I'm at now, I am, in all honesty, open to hear your
responses.
Ela
Lesa McMahon-Lowe
Ela,
How old is your DD? I think you mentioned before but after all the
responses, I've misplaced that fact.
Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How old is your DD? I think you mentioned before but after all the
responses, I've misplaced that fact.
Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-many dont even have electricity, let alone
computers with internet access. Many of these kids, without any
school, speak half a dozen languages-=-
People spoke long before schools were invented.
Schools have rarely helped ANYone learn a language. They have
caused millions of people to endure two years or more of conjugation
of verbs and writing out dialogs about where the library is, but
that's "studying a language," not learning to speak it in any real-
world way.
Kids could learn languages more easily from DVDs now than they could
from school.
-=-not "evil" in the "devil" sense-=-
What kind of sense then? Please define evil not in the devil sense.
And if you have to look it up to do that, please remember that any
and every word you use has a dictionary definition and it's not okay
to say later "I didn't mean that."
You can choose your worse as carefully as you want to, but if you
choose some and post them here others will assume (sensibly and
rightly) that you intended to read feedback on what you posted.
-=I DID point out that I realised (too late) that I shouldn't really be
posting feelings here in that way.-=-
If by feelings you mean thoughts, post all you want.
If by feelings you mean bullshit, don't post that stuff.
Just don't post anything you don't want to defend or that you don't
want discussed.
Those things, you can write on paper and tape to the wall at your
house What is sent to this list, though, is ours to dissect and play
around with.
-=-I definately NEVER said that I project anything onto my daughter if
she eats popsicles or anything else for that matter, just that *I*
personally wouldnt eat them-=-
In this case, sorry to say, it doesn't matter what you said or what
you would like to claim you wish you had said or thought you were
saying. If your daughter is aware in any way that you disapprove of
her choices, you are doing emotional damage. If she knows because
she overheard you, or you breathed in and out in a meaningful way,
or rolled your eyes, or said "Do you REALLY want to watch this?" or
"Ugh" or any of a thousand ways you could indicate negative thoughts
or feelings, it doesn't matter one bit what you write here to try to
convince us you didn't say you had done that.
-=-SO:
my question is: Is is really such an "unschooling no-no" to have a
home without a TV?-=-
I don't think that's the question anymore.
The questions are bigger and broader than that.
-=-To be honest, I dont think it-=-
Then there's your answer.
-=-I have a long experience living in
the third world and seen loads of families who are "unschooling"
without calling it that. They're all just doing what everyone did
before universal schooling was invented. -=-
Living a subsistance life in poverty, maybe without a family and
maybe without a house, is not "unschooling without calling it that."
If you think no more of unschooing than that, please read everything
here before you post anymore.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
computers with internet access. Many of these kids, without any
school, speak half a dozen languages-=-
People spoke long before schools were invented.
Schools have rarely helped ANYone learn a language. They have
caused millions of people to endure two years or more of conjugation
of verbs and writing out dialogs about where the library is, but
that's "studying a language," not learning to speak it in any real-
world way.
Kids could learn languages more easily from DVDs now than they could
from school.
-=-not "evil" in the "devil" sense-=-
What kind of sense then? Please define evil not in the devil sense.
And if you have to look it up to do that, please remember that any
and every word you use has a dictionary definition and it's not okay
to say later "I didn't mean that."
You can choose your worse as carefully as you want to, but if you
choose some and post them here others will assume (sensibly and
rightly) that you intended to read feedback on what you posted.
-=I DID point out that I realised (too late) that I shouldn't really be
posting feelings here in that way.-=-
If by feelings you mean thoughts, post all you want.
If by feelings you mean bullshit, don't post that stuff.
Just don't post anything you don't want to defend or that you don't
want discussed.
Those things, you can write on paper and tape to the wall at your
house What is sent to this list, though, is ours to dissect and play
around with.
-=-I definately NEVER said that I project anything onto my daughter if
she eats popsicles or anything else for that matter, just that *I*
personally wouldnt eat them-=-
In this case, sorry to say, it doesn't matter what you said or what
you would like to claim you wish you had said or thought you were
saying. If your daughter is aware in any way that you disapprove of
her choices, you are doing emotional damage. If she knows because
she overheard you, or you breathed in and out in a meaningful way,
or rolled your eyes, or said "Do you REALLY want to watch this?" or
"Ugh" or any of a thousand ways you could indicate negative thoughts
or feelings, it doesn't matter one bit what you write here to try to
convince us you didn't say you had done that.
-=-SO:
my question is: Is is really such an "unschooling no-no" to have a
home without a TV?-=-
I don't think that's the question anymore.
The questions are bigger and broader than that.
-=-To be honest, I dont think it-=-
Then there's your answer.
-=-I have a long experience living in
the third world and seen loads of families who are "unschooling"
without calling it that. They're all just doing what everyone did
before universal schooling was invented. -=-
Living a subsistance life in poverty, maybe without a family and
maybe without a house, is not "unschooling without calling it that."
If you think no more of unschooing than that, please read everything
here before you post anymore.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
quote: When you have completed some or most of the exercises above
and you no longer tense up at the thought of whether your child could
possibly get into college, and when you can hear �math worksheets�
without thinking �Maybe we should get some of THOSE!� you can
consider yourself a graduate of Sandra Dodd�s Advanced School of
Deschooling.
Thanks Sandra, I needed the reminder. A friend stopped by yesterday,
with a whole box of homeschooling books. She's going to HS her son
this year, he has backsurgery in September and will be flat on his
back for maybe two months, and then restricted movement for another
few. I talked to her a bit about just living life (he has degeorge
syndrome, and is 'behind' on school work) and she seemed to think it
was a good idea, esp after I pointed out that she said he learns
better by doing!
But after she left, I was thinking about all those nifty worksheets
(which Emily and I personally love doing). Fortunately the kids were
at a friends house swimming, and I was able to breath and talk myself
through it ;-) I know I have a lot of work to do on *my*
deschooling. The kids are there! Our house is so awesome, and I love
that we sit and watch TV and play video games, and dig up clay, and
build houses out of cornstalks, and paint the table, and a bunch of
other things we've done just today.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
and you no longer tense up at the thought of whether your child could
possibly get into college, and when you can hear �math worksheets�
without thinking �Maybe we should get some of THOSE!� you can
consider yourself a graduate of Sandra Dodd�s Advanced School of
Deschooling.
Thanks Sandra, I needed the reminder. A friend stopped by yesterday,
with a whole box of homeschooling books. She's going to HS her son
this year, he has backsurgery in September and will be flat on his
back for maybe two months, and then restricted movement for another
few. I talked to her a bit about just living life (he has degeorge
syndrome, and is 'behind' on school work) and she seemed to think it
was a good idea, esp after I pointed out that she said he learns
better by doing!
But after she left, I was thinking about all those nifty worksheets
(which Emily and I personally love doing). Fortunately the kids were
at a friends house swimming, and I was able to breath and talk myself
through it ;-) I know I have a lot of work to do on *my*
deschooling. The kids are there! Our house is so awesome, and I love
that we sit and watch TV and play video games, and dig up clay, and
build houses out of cornstalks, and paint the table, and a bunch of
other things we've done just today.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Aug 10, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/nest
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 10, 2006, at 4:13 PM, elamajikfaerie wrote:
child's world by what I'm doing?"
It's not that kids can't learn without TV. Kids have been learning
ever since their only toys were sticks and rocks!
There are unschoolers who live beyond the range of decent TV
reception. There's a whole world of options that aren't TV. And we
can talk about options for bringing the world to kids when broadcast
isn't available.
But, when TV is available, when *parents* make the conscious choice
not to bring it into their homes, it is the same as deciding not to
use books or not to use the internet or not to go to plays. It's
deliberately cutting off a resource.
And a secondary effect is that *when parents think TV is bad*, it's
very difficult for children not to pick up that message. No matter
how careful the parents are. No matter how much they insist that if
the child asks for it, they'll get a TV. The child *can't* freely
choose TV without knowingly choosing something she knows her parents
think is bad.
Same goes for non-organic food. Other religions. Plastic. Anything
the parents have decided is *bad*, that they don't for themselves
want in the house, can't be freely chosen by a child.
That's not an absolute pronouncement that every parent who feels
uncomfortable about TV will have children who feel uncomfortable
about watching it. But the atmosphere is there, nonetheless. And it
takes a lot of extra, special interaction to counteract the message
the parents are silently sending.
So it isn't truthful to say "Yes, you can choose not to have TV and
your child will grow up without picking up your fears and will be
just as knowledgeable as those who have free access." You're creating
a situation that is likely to lead to a child feeling she can't
freely choose TV when she wants. Can you counteract that? It will
entirely depend on your awareness and sensitivity of your daughter,
your awareness of yourself impact and your ability to counteract what
you're creating. It will be dependent on your personalities and your
environment.
We can help you see what the world looks like from your child's point
of view. We can help you create an environment of freedom. But we
can't help you counteract a deliberate limiting of your child's
world. That's work you'll have to do yourself because what's needed
-- if it's possible -- will entirely depend on the personalities and
abilities in your family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> my question is: Is is really such an "unschooling no-no" to have aI think a better question is "Am I expanding or contracting my
> home without a TV?
child's world by what I'm doing?"
It's not that kids can't learn without TV. Kids have been learning
ever since their only toys were sticks and rocks!
There are unschoolers who live beyond the range of decent TV
reception. There's a whole world of options that aren't TV. And we
can talk about options for bringing the world to kids when broadcast
isn't available.
But, when TV is available, when *parents* make the conscious choice
not to bring it into their homes, it is the same as deciding not to
use books or not to use the internet or not to go to plays. It's
deliberately cutting off a resource.
And a secondary effect is that *when parents think TV is bad*, it's
very difficult for children not to pick up that message. No matter
how careful the parents are. No matter how much they insist that if
the child asks for it, they'll get a TV. The child *can't* freely
choose TV without knowingly choosing something she knows her parents
think is bad.
Same goes for non-organic food. Other religions. Plastic. Anything
the parents have decided is *bad*, that they don't for themselves
want in the house, can't be freely chosen by a child.
That's not an absolute pronouncement that every parent who feels
uncomfortable about TV will have children who feel uncomfortable
about watching it. But the atmosphere is there, nonetheless. And it
takes a lot of extra, special interaction to counteract the message
the parents are silently sending.
So it isn't truthful to say "Yes, you can choose not to have TV and
your child will grow up without picking up your fears and will be
just as knowledgeable as those who have free access." You're creating
a situation that is likely to lead to a child feeling she can't
freely choose TV when she wants. Can you counteract that? It will
entirely depend on your awareness and sensitivity of your daughter,
your awareness of yourself impact and your ability to counteract what
you're creating. It will be dependent on your personalities and your
environment.
We can help you see what the world looks like from your child's point
of view. We can help you create an environment of freedom. But we
can't help you counteract a deliberate limiting of your child's
world. That's work you'll have to do yourself because what's needed
-- if it's possible -- will entirely depend on the personalities and
abilities in your family.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-There are unschoolers who live beyond the range of decent TV
reception.-=-
I live so close to decent reception that we don't have cable, which
seems to some of the other unschoolers like we're watching sticks and
rocks. <g>
-=-We can help you create an environment of freedom. But we
can't help you counteract a deliberate limiting of your child's
world. -=-
"At this very instant the young fairy came out from behind the
hangings, and spake these words aloud: "Assure yourselves, O King and
Queen, that your daughter shall not die of this disaster. It is true,
I have no power to undo entirely what my elder has done. The princess
shall indeed pierce her hand with a spindle; but, instead of dying,
she shall only fall into a profound sleep, which shall last a hundred
years, at the expiration of which a king's son shall come and awake
her."
So like in Sleeping Beauty, we can be the eleven fairies (or seven,
depending on the version you like) and we can help you find beauty,
music, kindness, peace, art... but we can't undo the curse of
negativity.
Don't make your child wait 100 years or until a prince chops down a
thorny hedge, or even until she's fifteen to have as full and free a
life as she can have.
We would like for you to live happily ever after (starting now, I mean).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reception.-=-
I live so close to decent reception that we don't have cable, which
seems to some of the other unschoolers like we're watching sticks and
rocks. <g>
-=-We can help you create an environment of freedom. But we
can't help you counteract a deliberate limiting of your child's
world. -=-
"At this very instant the young fairy came out from behind the
hangings, and spake these words aloud: "Assure yourselves, O King and
Queen, that your daughter shall not die of this disaster. It is true,
I have no power to undo entirely what my elder has done. The princess
shall indeed pierce her hand with a spindle; but, instead of dying,
she shall only fall into a profound sleep, which shall last a hundred
years, at the expiration of which a king's son shall come and awake
her."
So like in Sleeping Beauty, we can be the eleven fairies (or seven,
depending on the version you like) and we can help you find beauty,
music, kindness, peace, art... but we can't undo the curse of
negativity.
Don't make your child wait 100 years or until a prince chops down a
thorny hedge, or even until she's fifteen to have as full and free a
life as she can have.
We would like for you to live happily ever after (starting now, I mean).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 10, 2006, at 1:13 PM, elamajikfaerie wrote:
this one. When you said "tv is evil," I understood you didn't mean in
the "devil" sense, but, instead, in the usual sense of the word
meaning extremely malevolent and harmful.
As for whether or not you can unschool without a tv? Sure. But tv's
are inexpensive and offer a more glorious and bountiful window to a
wider world than any other resource, so to choose not to have one
because you think it is "evil," is not a particularly "create-a-rich-
environment" kind of unschooling parent approach.
Also, people "can" live without all kinds of things. My husband grew
up with literally only one toy - he received one small toy bear as a
gift and that was the ONLY toy he ever had. He played in the
countryside with rocks and sticks and he had a wonderful childhood.
So, should we have decided to let our children have only one toy? Why
should we decide to deprive our children, on purpose, of wonderful
joy-bringing things - things we can afford?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I DID say that I feel TV is evil, but I ALSO qualified that by sayingYou have to expect people will take you at your word, on a list like
> not "evil" in the "devil" sense, but just something bad for me,
> personally.
this one. When you said "tv is evil," I understood you didn't mean in
the "devil" sense, but, instead, in the usual sense of the word
meaning extremely malevolent and harmful.
As for whether or not you can unschool without a tv? Sure. But tv's
are inexpensive and offer a more glorious and bountiful window to a
wider world than any other resource, so to choose not to have one
because you think it is "evil," is not a particularly "create-a-rich-
environment" kind of unschooling parent approach.
Also, people "can" live without all kinds of things. My husband grew
up with literally only one toy - he received one small toy bear as a
gift and that was the ONLY toy he ever had. He played in the
countryside with rocks and sticks and he had a wonderful childhood.
So, should we have decided to let our children have only one toy? Why
should we decide to deprive our children, on purpose, of wonderful
joy-bringing things - things we can afford?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elamajikfaerie
All rightey!
I'm learning a LOT here, and after all, that's what I'm here for.
So, in the hopes that there's not gonna be too many future
mis-interpretations and such, as are prone to come up when relative
strangers are communicating through electronic printed words, I shall
bare a bit of my soul and give you a little intro and background from
my life...
My daughter is 3 1/3 years old (3.3). I am 27.
I have definately never considered the idea of sending my daughter to
school of any kind for more than the split-second it took me to see
that I'm sure its a waste of her time, intelligence, passion, spirit,
learning potential, etc. I said as much to her dad before she was
born. I did consider homeschooling, in some natural alternative kinda
way, without knowing anything much about that, but didnt really give
it much thought as I figured, I've got 5 or 6 years before that
becomes an issue.
Then I heard about unschooling, and I instantly knew, yep, that's what
we're gonna do, and I realised that we are, in fact, ALREADY doing it.
My dd has her freedom. I dont "allow" her to take it, or "give" it to
her, I just dont stand in her way. I do insist that we dont drive
unless she's in her seat belt, but that generally means that I sit and
wait patiently trying to find creative solutions to help her to be
happy in the seat belt on times that she's not into it, rather than
forcing her into it. (ie, what if I tell you a story while you're in
your seat, or what if we paint your seat belt with nice colours? etc)
My dd chooses what she eats when she eats it, she chooses what she
wears, (even if its nothing, though I do insist on sunscreen or
staying indoors if that's her choice). She goes to be when she is
sleepy, and wakes up when she likes, I often find myself tired and
leave her playing on the internet or watching DVDs while I go to bed.
She is free to come to sleep when she likes. She nursed on demand
24/7 until she was 2 years 7 months, and she stopped very easily, by
herself. I'm a SAHM, I work a few hours a week from home.
There are no punishments or discipline in our home, and likewise no
rewards. I often bring my dd presents, just because I saw something
that she would like and I felt like getting it. Sometimes a present
can be something as simple as a piece of junk mail with a nice picture
of a butterfly on it. I take her with me most places, I let her work
the ATM for me, help me fill in forms, interact with sales people and
office clerks, or just sit on the floor hanging in the background, or
whatever, as she feels. Its all life and its all learning. I admit,
at this age I'm still not comfortable about leaving her home alone, so
if she doesn't want to go where I'm going, again, I spend time
patiently working with her to find a solution, maybe we just go later.
Yesterday our next-door neighbour was doing some home-improvement and
there was a lot of loud banging. My dd came to me and said she was
afraid of the noise. I gave her a hug and we talked about it for a
bit. In then end, we came up with the idea to go next door and see
what the noise is. So we went, knocked on the door, explained
ourselves, saw what the guy was doing. We examined his hammer and
other tools and stuff. Then we went home, dd no longer afraid, and
very curious about woodwork. So I got our a hammer and an old cut-off
piece of wood and nails and we played with that for a while. then I
had an idea and hammered nails about a cm apart all along 2
perpendicular edges of the wood and then we wove string in and out
creating patterns. Then I left dd alone to explore with the wood,
hammer, nails, string, and the whole tool cupboard and went to the
kitchen. When she wanted some help, she called me...
This is a pretty typical example of how our days go. I'm still pretty
new to the idea of "UNSCHOOLING".
Yes, I dont have a TV. I do have a problem with TV, in the same way
that some have a probelm with alcohol. I had a quite abusive childhood
and spent much of my teenage years heavily addicted to Heroin. I
managed to clean myself up, put some physical distance between myself
and my family and turn my life around. Still, if I get in front of a
TV, I have a very hard time excersising the restraint and will-power
needed to get away from it. I am working on healing this within
myself, healing and moving on from the past traumas and I find new joy
in my life every day. But for now I feel that for me the best thing
is not to have a TV in the house, the same way that alcoholics choose
not to have alcohol in their homes when they choose to heal themselves.
If my dd asks for a TV, she can have one, she can keep it in her room
and watch to her heart's content. At some point I will be able to
watch with her in a healthy way. I'm working on it.
When I asked if it is impossible to unschool without TV, and said that
I dont think it is, I was genuinely opening myself up to the
possibility that in order to succesfully unschool, we need TV, not to
debate it, just to hear others' opinions, facts, experiences, that
kind of stuff. I read so many stories about how so many unschoolers
are watching unlimited TV and how parents who limit TV are not on the
best path... I was wondering if anyone had experience from the other side.
I am not limiting my dd from watching TV, as I said in an earlier
post, she if free to watch as much as she likes in places where it is
available, as well as being free to watch whatever DVDs or download
whatever shows she likes. She plays around a lot on the internet, she
has no problem manipulating the mouse and knows how to navigate to
different sites, she likes www.poissonrouge.com and the teletubbies
sites a lot. she knows how to open a paint or word document and play
around typing. She knows ther ABCs in English and Hebrew and the
positions of the keys, and the functions of SHIFT and DEL etc. I
haven't "taught" her any of this, she worked it out herself, by
watching me and having the freedom to work it out, and the confidence
to ask when she has a question.
I'm learning a LOT here, and after all, that's what I'm here for.
So, in the hopes that there's not gonna be too many future
mis-interpretations and such, as are prone to come up when relative
strangers are communicating through electronic printed words, I shall
bare a bit of my soul and give you a little intro and background from
my life...
My daughter is 3 1/3 years old (3.3). I am 27.
I have definately never considered the idea of sending my daughter to
school of any kind for more than the split-second it took me to see
that I'm sure its a waste of her time, intelligence, passion, spirit,
learning potential, etc. I said as much to her dad before she was
born. I did consider homeschooling, in some natural alternative kinda
way, without knowing anything much about that, but didnt really give
it much thought as I figured, I've got 5 or 6 years before that
becomes an issue.
Then I heard about unschooling, and I instantly knew, yep, that's what
we're gonna do, and I realised that we are, in fact, ALREADY doing it.
My dd has her freedom. I dont "allow" her to take it, or "give" it to
her, I just dont stand in her way. I do insist that we dont drive
unless she's in her seat belt, but that generally means that I sit and
wait patiently trying to find creative solutions to help her to be
happy in the seat belt on times that she's not into it, rather than
forcing her into it. (ie, what if I tell you a story while you're in
your seat, or what if we paint your seat belt with nice colours? etc)
My dd chooses what she eats when she eats it, she chooses what she
wears, (even if its nothing, though I do insist on sunscreen or
staying indoors if that's her choice). She goes to be when she is
sleepy, and wakes up when she likes, I often find myself tired and
leave her playing on the internet or watching DVDs while I go to bed.
She is free to come to sleep when she likes. She nursed on demand
24/7 until she was 2 years 7 months, and she stopped very easily, by
herself. I'm a SAHM, I work a few hours a week from home.
There are no punishments or discipline in our home, and likewise no
rewards. I often bring my dd presents, just because I saw something
that she would like and I felt like getting it. Sometimes a present
can be something as simple as a piece of junk mail with a nice picture
of a butterfly on it. I take her with me most places, I let her work
the ATM for me, help me fill in forms, interact with sales people and
office clerks, or just sit on the floor hanging in the background, or
whatever, as she feels. Its all life and its all learning. I admit,
at this age I'm still not comfortable about leaving her home alone, so
if she doesn't want to go where I'm going, again, I spend time
patiently working with her to find a solution, maybe we just go later.
Yesterday our next-door neighbour was doing some home-improvement and
there was a lot of loud banging. My dd came to me and said she was
afraid of the noise. I gave her a hug and we talked about it for a
bit. In then end, we came up with the idea to go next door and see
what the noise is. So we went, knocked on the door, explained
ourselves, saw what the guy was doing. We examined his hammer and
other tools and stuff. Then we went home, dd no longer afraid, and
very curious about woodwork. So I got our a hammer and an old cut-off
piece of wood and nails and we played with that for a while. then I
had an idea and hammered nails about a cm apart all along 2
perpendicular edges of the wood and then we wove string in and out
creating patterns. Then I left dd alone to explore with the wood,
hammer, nails, string, and the whole tool cupboard and went to the
kitchen. When she wanted some help, she called me...
This is a pretty typical example of how our days go. I'm still pretty
new to the idea of "UNSCHOOLING".
Yes, I dont have a TV. I do have a problem with TV, in the same way
that some have a probelm with alcohol. I had a quite abusive childhood
and spent much of my teenage years heavily addicted to Heroin. I
managed to clean myself up, put some physical distance between myself
and my family and turn my life around. Still, if I get in front of a
TV, I have a very hard time excersising the restraint and will-power
needed to get away from it. I am working on healing this within
myself, healing and moving on from the past traumas and I find new joy
in my life every day. But for now I feel that for me the best thing
is not to have a TV in the house, the same way that alcoholics choose
not to have alcohol in their homes when they choose to heal themselves.
If my dd asks for a TV, she can have one, she can keep it in her room
and watch to her heart's content. At some point I will be able to
watch with her in a healthy way. I'm working on it.
When I asked if it is impossible to unschool without TV, and said that
I dont think it is, I was genuinely opening myself up to the
possibility that in order to succesfully unschool, we need TV, not to
debate it, just to hear others' opinions, facts, experiences, that
kind of stuff. I read so many stories about how so many unschoolers
are watching unlimited TV and how parents who limit TV are not on the
best path... I was wondering if anyone had experience from the other side.
I am not limiting my dd from watching TV, as I said in an earlier
post, she if free to watch as much as she likes in places where it is
available, as well as being free to watch whatever DVDs or download
whatever shows she likes. She plays around a lot on the internet, she
has no problem manipulating the mouse and knows how to navigate to
different sites, she likes www.poissonrouge.com and the teletubbies
sites a lot. she knows how to open a paint or word document and play
around typing. She knows ther ABCs in English and Hebrew and the
positions of the keys, and the functions of SHIFT and DEL etc. I
haven't "taught" her any of this, she worked it out herself, by
watching me and having the freedom to work it out, and the confidence
to ask when she has a question.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Living a subsistance life in poverty, maybe without a family and
> maybe without a house, is not "unschooling without calling it that."
> If you think no more of unschooing than that, please read everything
> here before you post anymore.
>
okay, again, Sandra, you have made an assumption way off the mark. No
problem. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. "Third world" doesn't
necessarily mean poverty. in means that a country doesnt have a
national economy to match those in the "first world" (who happen to be
the ones doing the counting). It definatley does NOT mean "without a
family". Why did you assume I was talking about homeless kids living
in poverty without a family?
I was talking about children who have loving homes, large extended
families, plenty to eat, excellent quality of life, and fantastic
education, without school. Children who are happy and healthy, who
help in their family farming or fishing or weaving or whatever, as
they like. Children who are loved and respected by their elders, who
aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
them.
Just because someone doesnt have a lot of money or an electricity
connection doesnt mean they are living in poverty.
Anyway, I am learning a lot, every day! and I love it!
Thanks,
Ela
Sandra Dodd
-=-So, in the hopes that there's not gonna be too many future
mis-interpretations and such...-=-
The background information is interesting but it won't prevent the
need for being as clear as you can be when you're writing, and for
knowing that the purpose of the list is to examine ideas.
-=-okay, again, Sandra, you have made an assumption way off the mark. No
problem. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. "Third world" doesn't
necessarily mean poverty. in means that a country doesnt have a
national economy to match those in the "first world" (who happen to be
the ones doing the counting). It definatley does NOT mean "without a
family". Why did you assume I was talking about homeless kids living
in poverty without a family?-=-
1930 didn't necessarily mean poverty either, but to say "During the
Depression" is often shorthand for the reminder that people tended to
be hungry, unemployed, and maybe dying of fever.
Saying "Pioneer days" doesn't necessarily mean poverty either, but
once that phrase is used, the reasonable assumption is that nobody's
talking about a family living in a large stone house that's been
there 300 years, with hundred year old trees and their great-
grandparents' souvenirs in a trunk upstairs.
If you're going to cling to what you meant to write instead of
accepting that what you post WILL be interpretted by people who see
it and respond to it, I don't think you'll enjoy this list.
-=-I was talking about children who have loving homes, large extended
families, plenty to eat, excellent quality of life, and fantastic
education, without school. Children who are happy and healthy, who
help in their family farming or fishing or weaving or whatever, as
they like. Children who are loved and respected by their elders, who
aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
them. -=-
You don't live there, though, nor does your daughter. I'm not sure
anyone does. Do you have a real-life place in mind, or is this an
idealized fantasy world? That's a serious question you should ask
yourself, but you don't need to answer it on the list.
As to -=- Children ... who
aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
them,-=- you're not talking about unschoolers, either.
Sometimes we do mention mainstream modern western culture. MOSTLY we
need to talk about unschoolers. Those without any real unschooling
experience can ask questions or tell applicable stories, but it's
less helpful for those without any real unschooling experience not to
tell us what we could be doing better or how unschooling can or does
or should work.
Contrary to warm feelings, nursing a baby isn't the same as
unschooling. Nursing a baby is a great thing! Attachment parenting
is a great thing. Being a gentle, attentive parent is a great
thing. All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier
to do, but they are not the things that happen after a family decides
not to put a child in school at compulsory school age, or at the age
all their neighbors are putting the toddlers into academic pre-schools.
-=-My dd has her freedom. I dont "allow" her to take it, or "give" it to
her, I just dont stand in her way-=-
That's your decision to make, and so you give it to her. If you and
your husband die, her freedom goes with you. Constructs that don't
reflect reality aren't helpful to people.
-=-I do insist that we dont drive
unless she's in her seat belt, but that generally means that I sit and
wait patiently trying to find creative solutions to help her to be
happy in the seat belt on times that she's not into it, rather than
forcing her into it. (ie, what if I tell you a story while you're in
your seat, or what if we paint your seat belt with nice colours? etc)-=-
Do you let adult passengers decide whether to wear their seatbelts?
Do you offer to tell them stories? Again, not a question to answer
on the list, just to consider in light of principles and how they
operate in regular life.
-=-I admit,
at this age I'm still not comfortable about leaving her home alone, so
if she doesn't want to go where I'm going...-=-
Do you seriously think, even a teensy bit, that anyone on this list
leaves a three year old home alone?
A four or five year old?
-=-I do have a problem with TV, in the same way
that some have a probelm with alcohol. I had a quite abusive childhood
and spent much of my teenage years heavily addicted to Heroin.-=-
But those things are not between your daughter and her need for input
and exposure to ideas, voices, music, stories. Heroin didn't make
you watch TV, nor did TV make you use heroin. If you have any
thoughts like that in your mind, please consider counseling. If your
past traumas are all mixed up in you and you have healing to do
that's keeping you from seeing clearly, the best thing you could do
for your daughter would be to untangle as much of that confusion and
fear as you can, as soon as possible.
-=-But for now I feel that for me the best thing
is not to have a TV in the house, the same way that alcoholics choose
not to have alcohol in their homes when they choose to heal
themselves.-=-
I think it belittles alcoholism to compare it to a $100 appliance--a
radio with pictures. I have a friend who just wrote to me with this:
I JUST PLAN TO LIVE IT OUT HERE IN THIS BEAUTI-
FUL PLACE AND STICK WITH MY A.A. MEETINGS. I
GOT SOBER HERE 12/23/76 AND A GREAT BUNCH OF
US FROM BACK THEN ARE STILL AROUND AND GLAD
I AM BACK. A.A. IN NASHVILLE IS WONDERFUL TOO
BUT IT WAS JUST TIME TO COME HOME IN SPITE OF
HAVING NO CENTRAL VISION AND THE BLOOD AND
BONE MARROW CANCER THAT SENT ME AWAT FROM
THIS THIN AIR AND TOO HIGH FOR ME ALTITUDE.
Don't compare TV to alcoholism. Alcohol doesn't have a remote
control with a mute and an off switch. For her to be going to
meetings still after nearly 30 years, to have been sober for nearly
30 years, is a remarkable achievement and a LOT of work.
-=-I am not limiting my dd from watching TV, as I said in an earlier
post, she if free to watch as much as she likes in places where it is
available, as well as being free to watch whatever DVDs or download
whatever shows she likes.-=-
There's not all that much on the internet to download, I don't
think. She can't go visiting by herself, as she's three. Do you
have an example of a place she's ever been where she could watch as
much TV as she likes? Do you ever leave her at anyone else's house?
She's three.
What if someone wrote "I am not limiting my dd from looking at
books. She is free to read as much as she likes in places where books
are available, as well as being free to order whatever books she
likes from Amazon or interlibrary loan...." others might well ask how
she would even know which end of a book was up, or how she might go
about browsing Amazon.
"If my dd asks for a book, she can have one, she can keep it in her room
and read to her heart's content. At some point I will be able to
read with her in a healthy way. I'm working on it."
How long would you wait to work on it if you felt unable to share
books with her?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mis-interpretations and such...-=-
The background information is interesting but it won't prevent the
need for being as clear as you can be when you're writing, and for
knowing that the purpose of the list is to examine ideas.
-=-okay, again, Sandra, you have made an assumption way off the mark. No
problem. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. "Third world" doesn't
necessarily mean poverty. in means that a country doesnt have a
national economy to match those in the "first world" (who happen to be
the ones doing the counting). It definatley does NOT mean "without a
family". Why did you assume I was talking about homeless kids living
in poverty without a family?-=-
1930 didn't necessarily mean poverty either, but to say "During the
Depression" is often shorthand for the reminder that people tended to
be hungry, unemployed, and maybe dying of fever.
Saying "Pioneer days" doesn't necessarily mean poverty either, but
once that phrase is used, the reasonable assumption is that nobody's
talking about a family living in a large stone house that's been
there 300 years, with hundred year old trees and their great-
grandparents' souvenirs in a trunk upstairs.
If you're going to cling to what you meant to write instead of
accepting that what you post WILL be interpretted by people who see
it and respond to it, I don't think you'll enjoy this list.
-=-I was talking about children who have loving homes, large extended
families, plenty to eat, excellent quality of life, and fantastic
education, without school. Children who are happy and healthy, who
help in their family farming or fishing or weaving or whatever, as
they like. Children who are loved and respected by their elders, who
aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
them. -=-
You don't live there, though, nor does your daughter. I'm not sure
anyone does. Do you have a real-life place in mind, or is this an
idealized fantasy world? That's a serious question you should ask
yourself, but you don't need to answer it on the list.
As to -=- Children ... who
aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
them,-=- you're not talking about unschoolers, either.
Sometimes we do mention mainstream modern western culture. MOSTLY we
need to talk about unschoolers. Those without any real unschooling
experience can ask questions or tell applicable stories, but it's
less helpful for those without any real unschooling experience not to
tell us what we could be doing better or how unschooling can or does
or should work.
Contrary to warm feelings, nursing a baby isn't the same as
unschooling. Nursing a baby is a great thing! Attachment parenting
is a great thing. Being a gentle, attentive parent is a great
thing. All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier
to do, but they are not the things that happen after a family decides
not to put a child in school at compulsory school age, or at the age
all their neighbors are putting the toddlers into academic pre-schools.
-=-My dd has her freedom. I dont "allow" her to take it, or "give" it to
her, I just dont stand in her way-=-
That's your decision to make, and so you give it to her. If you and
your husband die, her freedom goes with you. Constructs that don't
reflect reality aren't helpful to people.
-=-I do insist that we dont drive
unless she's in her seat belt, but that generally means that I sit and
wait patiently trying to find creative solutions to help her to be
happy in the seat belt on times that she's not into it, rather than
forcing her into it. (ie, what if I tell you a story while you're in
your seat, or what if we paint your seat belt with nice colours? etc)-=-
Do you let adult passengers decide whether to wear their seatbelts?
Do you offer to tell them stories? Again, not a question to answer
on the list, just to consider in light of principles and how they
operate in regular life.
-=-I admit,
at this age I'm still not comfortable about leaving her home alone, so
if she doesn't want to go where I'm going...-=-
Do you seriously think, even a teensy bit, that anyone on this list
leaves a three year old home alone?
A four or five year old?
-=-I do have a problem with TV, in the same way
that some have a probelm with alcohol. I had a quite abusive childhood
and spent much of my teenage years heavily addicted to Heroin.-=-
But those things are not between your daughter and her need for input
and exposure to ideas, voices, music, stories. Heroin didn't make
you watch TV, nor did TV make you use heroin. If you have any
thoughts like that in your mind, please consider counseling. If your
past traumas are all mixed up in you and you have healing to do
that's keeping you from seeing clearly, the best thing you could do
for your daughter would be to untangle as much of that confusion and
fear as you can, as soon as possible.
-=-But for now I feel that for me the best thing
is not to have a TV in the house, the same way that alcoholics choose
not to have alcohol in their homes when they choose to heal
themselves.-=-
I think it belittles alcoholism to compare it to a $100 appliance--a
radio with pictures. I have a friend who just wrote to me with this:
I JUST PLAN TO LIVE IT OUT HERE IN THIS BEAUTI-
FUL PLACE AND STICK WITH MY A.A. MEETINGS. I
GOT SOBER HERE 12/23/76 AND A GREAT BUNCH OF
US FROM BACK THEN ARE STILL AROUND AND GLAD
I AM BACK. A.A. IN NASHVILLE IS WONDERFUL TOO
BUT IT WAS JUST TIME TO COME HOME IN SPITE OF
HAVING NO CENTRAL VISION AND THE BLOOD AND
BONE MARROW CANCER THAT SENT ME AWAT FROM
THIS THIN AIR AND TOO HIGH FOR ME ALTITUDE.
Don't compare TV to alcoholism. Alcohol doesn't have a remote
control with a mute and an off switch. For her to be going to
meetings still after nearly 30 years, to have been sober for nearly
30 years, is a remarkable achievement and a LOT of work.
-=-I am not limiting my dd from watching TV, as I said in an earlier
post, she if free to watch as much as she likes in places where it is
available, as well as being free to watch whatever DVDs or download
whatever shows she likes.-=-
There's not all that much on the internet to download, I don't
think. She can't go visiting by herself, as she's three. Do you
have an example of a place she's ever been where she could watch as
much TV as she likes? Do you ever leave her at anyone else's house?
She's three.
What if someone wrote "I am not limiting my dd from looking at
books. She is free to read as much as she likes in places where books
are available, as well as being free to order whatever books she
likes from Amazon or interlibrary loan...." others might well ask how
she would even know which end of a book was up, or how she might go
about browsing Amazon.
"If my dd asks for a book, she can have one, she can keep it in her room
and read to her heart's content. At some point I will be able to
read with her in a healthy way. I'm working on it."
How long would you wait to work on it if you felt unable to share
books with her?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
What is the opinion on kids hanging out with other kids that may be 2 or
more years older or younger than them?
My son was going to visit and stay over with a friend and his mom said
no, that her son needs to find friends his own age. My son is 13 1/2
and hers is 16 (in one week). I didn't want to press the issue but
Flyerkat
more years older or younger than them?
My son was going to visit and stay over with a friend and his mom said
no, that her son needs to find friends his own age. My son is 13 1/2
and hers is 16 (in one week). I didn't want to press the issue but
Flyerkat
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: elamajikfaerie@...
To be honest, I dont think it is, I have a long experience living in
the third world and seen loads of families who are "unschooling"
without calling it that. They're all just doing what everyone did
before universal schooling was invented. and the vast majority of
them do NOT have TV. many dont even have electricity, let alone
computers with internet access. Many of these kids, without any
school, speak half a dozen languages, read and write, and have skills
that astound me (like that 4 year old who drives in India).
-=-=-=-
Yeah---but is that where *you* live? If I lived there, I would make my
children's worlds as big as I could *there*---without tv or video games
or electricity even. But I don't. I live where all that stuff is
readily available. It's common, and it's stuff they like. I'm not going
to deprive them of something I'm not wild about but that's readily
available.
I don't like peas. I DO make them available for my boys because they
like them. There's almost always a can in the cupboard or a frozen
package in the freezer. It's available.
I don't like Jazz, but I buy jazz CDs and DVDs and go to jazz bars with
my son because *he* likes them. I don't like cycling, but I bought my
husband his first bike (well, his first "big boy" bike! <G>), and I
SAGed him and a friend when they went cycling the Natchez Trace last
spring. I don't like Manga or ANime, but I buy and read Manga books to
my younger son, I bought him a costume to wear at the CosPlay funshop,
and I painted his room in YuGiOh! characters.
-=-=-=-=-
Even here in the West, lots of families dont have a computer at home,
they have to go to their local library to get online, they dont have
a swimming pool, they have to make do with the public one, they dont
have a yard with a garden or an encyclopedia or a lot of books or all
kinds of things. They get this stuff outside the home, and that
doesnt mean it's being "restricted".
-=-=-=-=-
*WHY* do they not have a computer? Because they can't afford it or
because they are afraid of the gamma rays?
*WHY* do they not have a swimming pool? Because they can't afford it or
they live where it's impractical or because pools have sharks?
*WHY* do they not have a garden? Because they couldn't afford a house
with a yard and garden or because gardens attract giant grasshoppers?
*WHY* do they not have encyclopedias---wait---Does *anyone* have
encyclopedias any more? <Bwg>
The things IS: tv is soooo inexpensive. I can see not being able to
afford a very high end computer, but there are plenty of old, cheap, or
rebuilt ones for a song. Pools? HUGE expense---even if it came with the
house. Yards and gardens? Lots of work and $$$ to maintain.
Encyclopedias? Sorry---still laughing. <g> But tv is CHEAP. Really
cheap.
The other stuff you mentioned can easily be excused with high cost. Tvs
are cheap and an *excellent* way to receive information. We don't live
where things like tv are cost-prohibitive. Cheap, cheap, cheap!
-=-=-=-=-
They get this stuff outside the home, and that
doesnt mean it's being "restricted".
-=-=-=-
Sure. But are they *afraid* of those things? Third world doesn't always
mean abject poverty---mostly is, but certainly not always---but it's
the FEAR FACTOR that's stopping you from having a TV.
People are terrified that if they had unlimited access to M&Ms that
they would ONLY eat M&Ms. I have a challenge that several people have
taken me up on with incredible results: put a *large* bowl of M&Ms on
you kitchen counter or in your foyer. Keep it FULL! You may need to
have a drawer with 2-3 more bags nearby so that it's never, ever even
half empty (or half-full---however you like to visualize it! <G>).
Chances are, the M&Ms will be quickly devoured the first few days. Keep
it FULL, and I promise your consumption of M&Ms to go waaaay down to
next to nothing by the end of a month. I have two huge bowls out in my
foyer now---one with plain and peanut. One with dark chocolate M&Ms. I
haven't had one in days and days and days. My guests this week couldn't
stop eating them! <G>
I know that's not TV, but at the same time, you could do that too. Get
your absolute fill of TV---24/7. Eventually, you will not have that
intense attraction. But I won't recommend that you try that with a
three year old in the house---she needs you too much! <G> I suggest
that with teens and with childless adults who feel that it is
addictive. It's NOT. *YOU* get to choose. You really do. There's
nothing on TV that can *make* you watch. Nothing.
You think it has some kind of control of you. It's because you've
denied yourself TV for so long. When you turn it on, say, "*I* get to
choose what to watch and when." It's a BOX! It doesn't have that
control. Only *YOU* do. ONLY YOU!
The restriction problem comes in the idea that it scares you. She'll
pick up on that. She'll know you're fearing sometihng that she finds
delight in. She's small enough to have difficulty
understanding/comprehending that dichotomy.
Lose the fear. It's a BOX! *YOU* are the all-powerful OZ! <G>
Hell, you kicked HEROIN! You're scared of a damned box??? <G>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: elamajikfaerie@...
To be honest, I dont think it is, I have a long experience living in
the third world and seen loads of families who are "unschooling"
without calling it that. They're all just doing what everyone did
before universal schooling was invented. and the vast majority of
them do NOT have TV. many dont even have electricity, let alone
computers with internet access. Many of these kids, without any
school, speak half a dozen languages, read and write, and have skills
that astound me (like that 4 year old who drives in India).
-=-=-=-
Yeah---but is that where *you* live? If I lived there, I would make my
children's worlds as big as I could *there*---without tv or video games
or electricity even. But I don't. I live where all that stuff is
readily available. It's common, and it's stuff they like. I'm not going
to deprive them of something I'm not wild about but that's readily
available.
I don't like peas. I DO make them available for my boys because they
like them. There's almost always a can in the cupboard or a frozen
package in the freezer. It's available.
I don't like Jazz, but I buy jazz CDs and DVDs and go to jazz bars with
my son because *he* likes them. I don't like cycling, but I bought my
husband his first bike (well, his first "big boy" bike! <G>), and I
SAGed him and a friend when they went cycling the Natchez Trace last
spring. I don't like Manga or ANime, but I buy and read Manga books to
my younger son, I bought him a costume to wear at the CosPlay funshop,
and I painted his room in YuGiOh! characters.
-=-=-=-=-
Even here in the West, lots of families dont have a computer at home,
they have to go to their local library to get online, they dont have
a swimming pool, they have to make do with the public one, they dont
have a yard with a garden or an encyclopedia or a lot of books or all
kinds of things. They get this stuff outside the home, and that
doesnt mean it's being "restricted".
-=-=-=-=-
*WHY* do they not have a computer? Because they can't afford it or
because they are afraid of the gamma rays?
*WHY* do they not have a swimming pool? Because they can't afford it or
they live where it's impractical or because pools have sharks?
*WHY* do they not have a garden? Because they couldn't afford a house
with a yard and garden or because gardens attract giant grasshoppers?
*WHY* do they not have encyclopedias---wait---Does *anyone* have
encyclopedias any more? <Bwg>
The things IS: tv is soooo inexpensive. I can see not being able to
afford a very high end computer, but there are plenty of old, cheap, or
rebuilt ones for a song. Pools? HUGE expense---even if it came with the
house. Yards and gardens? Lots of work and $$$ to maintain.
Encyclopedias? Sorry---still laughing. <g> But tv is CHEAP. Really
cheap.
The other stuff you mentioned can easily be excused with high cost. Tvs
are cheap and an *excellent* way to receive information. We don't live
where things like tv are cost-prohibitive. Cheap, cheap, cheap!
-=-=-=-=-
They get this stuff outside the home, and that
doesnt mean it's being "restricted".
-=-=-=-
Sure. But are they *afraid* of those things? Third world doesn't always
mean abject poverty---mostly is, but certainly not always---but it's
the FEAR FACTOR that's stopping you from having a TV.
People are terrified that if they had unlimited access to M&Ms that
they would ONLY eat M&Ms. I have a challenge that several people have
taken me up on with incredible results: put a *large* bowl of M&Ms on
you kitchen counter or in your foyer. Keep it FULL! You may need to
have a drawer with 2-3 more bags nearby so that it's never, ever even
half empty (or half-full---however you like to visualize it! <G>).
Chances are, the M&Ms will be quickly devoured the first few days. Keep
it FULL, and I promise your consumption of M&Ms to go waaaay down to
next to nothing by the end of a month. I have two huge bowls out in my
foyer now---one with plain and peanut. One with dark chocolate M&Ms. I
haven't had one in days and days and days. My guests this week couldn't
stop eating them! <G>
I know that's not TV, but at the same time, you could do that too. Get
your absolute fill of TV---24/7. Eventually, you will not have that
intense attraction. But I won't recommend that you try that with a
three year old in the house---she needs you too much! <G> I suggest
that with teens and with childless adults who feel that it is
addictive. It's NOT. *YOU* get to choose. You really do. There's
nothing on TV that can *make* you watch. Nothing.
You think it has some kind of control of you. It's because you've
denied yourself TV for so long. When you turn it on, say, "*I* get to
choose what to watch and when." It's a BOX! It doesn't have that
control. Only *YOU* do. ONLY YOU!
The restriction problem comes in the idea that it scares you. She'll
pick up on that. She'll know you're fearing sometihng that she finds
delight in. She's small enough to have difficulty
understanding/comprehending that dichotomy.
Lose the fear. It's a BOX! *YOU* are the all-powerful OZ! <G>
Hell, you kicked HEROIN! You're scared of a damned box??? <G>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Nancy Wooton
On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
age, or from Pokemon League. Since he plays in the 14 and up category,
he has friends of all ages. The guy he wants to invite over to spend
tonight is 19. One of the other players he visits often is the dad of
a kid in the 12 to 14 level; they've all traveled together to places
like Las Vegas and Phoenix for tournaments.
It's interests, not age, that make friends. Heck, I just went on a
road trip to Oregon for a horseback riding clinic with my 19 y.o.
daughter and my 64 y.o. horsey friend (we let her rent the hotel
rooms, since she has AARP discounts!).
> What is the opinion on kids hanging out with other kids that may be 2My 16 y.o. son's friends are either from park day and pretty close in
> or
> more years older or younger than them?
>
> My son was going to visit and stay over with a friend and his mom said
> no, that her son needs to find friends his own age. My son is 13 1/2
> and hers is 16 (in one week). I didn't want to press the issue but
>
age, or from Pokemon League. Since he plays in the 14 and up category,
he has friends of all ages. The guy he wants to invite over to spend
tonight is 19. One of the other players he visits often is the dad of
a kid in the 12 to 14 level; they've all traveled together to places
like Las Vegas and Phoenix for tournaments.
It's interests, not age, that make friends. Heck, I just went on a
road trip to Oregon for a horseback riding clinic with my 19 y.o.
daughter and my 64 y.o. horsey friend (we let her rent the hotel
rooms, since she has AARP discounts!).
Rod Thomas
Is there a situation where you could see it being a potential problem?
On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
> What is the opinion on kids hanging out with other kids that may be 2
> or
> more years older or younger than them?
>
> My son was going to visit and stay over with a friend and his mom said
> no, that her son needs to find friends his own age. My son is 13 1/2
> and hers is 16 (in one week). I didn't want to press the issue but
>
It's interests, not age, that make friends. Heck, I just went on a
road trip to Oregon for a horseback riding clinic with my 19 y.o.
daughter and my 64 y.o. horsey friend (we let her rent the hotel
rooms, since she has AARP discounts!).
Sandra Dodd
-=-What is the opinion on kids hanging out with other kids that may
be 2 or
more years older or younger than them?-=-
We haven't had any problems with it.
If that other kid goes to school, he's been told for years to leave
the little kids alone. They worry about bullying and sexual issues
with kids at school. We've had kids hang out with others five years
different and never any problems at all, but most of those kids were
also homeschooled, or neighbors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be 2 or
more years older or younger than them?-=-
We haven't had any problems with it.
If that other kid goes to school, he's been told for years to leave
the little kids alone. They worry about bullying and sexual issues
with kids at school. We've had kids hang out with others five years
different and never any problems at all, but most of those kids were
also homeschooled, or neighbors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
On Aug 11, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
My son, 12, hangs with a group of boys on the block ages 13, 15, 16
and 16.
No problem at all. That woman is limited.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What is the opinion on kids hanging out with other kids that may beMy daughter's two best friends are two years older than her.
> 2 or
> more years older or younger than them?
My son, 12, hangs with a group of boys on the block ages 13, 15, 16
and 16.
No problem at all. That woman is limited.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Is there a situation where you could see it being a potential
problem?-=-
What kind of answer do you want?
If you want rules, you came to the wrong list!
http://sandradodd.com/rules
There is no rule on earth that will keep a kid safe. If your child
is 13.5 and you find friends who were born the same day, will they be
"safer" than someone born three years earlier? three yeard later?
If it's sexual maturity you're worried about, that doesn't come on
any schedule whatsoever.
Do you want a guarantee that the other kid isn't jumpstarted by
sexual molestation? Some people don't even realize or remember for
years. If Holly makes a friend today, he might be abused over the
weekend.
There are no guarantees.
Making rules only reduces people's ability to use good judgment and
gives them the false impression that rules create safety or that
choices and good judgment can be avoided.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
problem?-=-
What kind of answer do you want?
If you want rules, you came to the wrong list!
http://sandradodd.com/rules
There is no rule on earth that will keep a kid safe. If your child
is 13.5 and you find friends who were born the same day, will they be
"safer" than someone born three years earlier? three yeard later?
If it's sexual maturity you're worried about, that doesn't come on
any schedule whatsoever.
Do you want a guarantee that the other kid isn't jumpstarted by
sexual molestation? Some people don't even realize or remember for
years. If Holly makes a friend today, he might be abused over the
weekend.
There are no guarantees.
Making rules only reduces people's ability to use good judgment and
gives them the false impression that rules create safety or that
choices and good judgment can be avoided.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elamajikfaerie
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
really know will interpret my words. I am LEARNING how this group
interprets my words, and I'm doing my best to make myself as clear as
possible. I think I'm getting better, and I accept any tips that
might come my way.
comment slide, but you dont know where I live and you dont know where
I have lived. You do know that I lived for a long time in the third
world, I did say when I first brought it up in a previous post, which
you quoted from, "I have a long experience living in the third world
and seen loads of families..."
When i made this comment I was talking about real people in real
places that I have been to. I'm mentioning specifically families I
spent time with in Lesotho in Africa, in Laos in South East Asia and
in Brazil. I was living in such an environment in Brazil when my
daughter was born. I spent 5 years living in various places in the
third world. Right now we live in Israel (currently trying to bomb
itself into the thrid world ;) (and just to make sure its clear, that
was a joke) )
mainstream kids", thinking that it would highlight the similarity to
western unschoolers.
I really am under the impression that unschooling is not 'keeping kids
from school' (although unschoolers do not go to school), but allowing
them to learn how/ what/ when they like at their own pace. Being
there 100% to support them without getting in the way. Letting them
involve themselves in real life. Providing a loving and nurturing
home. In a nutshell.
That is what these families I mentioned are doing. That is what I am
doing, as best I can.
"but it's less helpful for those without any real unschooling
experience not to tell us what we could be doing better or how
unschooling can or does or should work.
Did you mis-type one negative too many? I assume the "not" that comes
between "experience" and "to tell" shouldnt be there. help me out
here if I'm wrong.
I'm working my way through reading everything at Sandradodd.com, as
well as everything I can get my hands on from Holt (difficult in
Israel, most online booksellers (including Amazon) wont ship out of
print books here and I cant really afford to import books too much) as
well as anything else I can find on unschooling.
I agree that those with little experience shouldn't be doling out
advice on how to do things better or how unschooling works.
"All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier to do,
but they are not the things that happen after a family decides not to
put a child in school at compulsory school age..."
Could you perhaps rephrase or clarify this for me?
to think about things differently.
Why does my daughter's freedom go if I and her father die?
3 of her 4 grandparents are retired and they are very open to our
"radical" parenting ideas. I have every reason to believe that if we
die, they will care for her with unschooling.
seatbelts? Is my GD method totally off-base?
And actually, I do offer to tell stories to adults. I used to be a
travelling story-teller, before I had my dd. (though to be honest, the
situation of an adult refusing to wear a seat-belt never came up)
that there are some things that my dd actually *doesnt* have "freedom"
in. if we drive, she MUST wear a seat belt. If I go out, she MUST
come with me. I just do my best to make these MUSTs happen without
forcing.
helping a lot.
If your
need a remote control with a mute and an off switch. It's even cheaper
than a TV, its just fermented juice. Just dont buy a drink. Switching
off the TV is just as hard for me as not buying a drink is for
alcoholics. I know its just as hard, I have been a drug addict. and
I know I can beat this, but I also know that while I'm working on it,
it's better for me not to have a TV in my home.
I know it's not a common addiction, but there are those that are
sexaholics, those that are obsessive compulsive, those that are
addicted to sniffing glue, to cigarettes, all kinds of people with
serious addictions. some physiological, all psychological.
When I have had a TV in my home (and I have had one, and I know when I
stay at my in-laws' or my parents' where there's TV, its VERY hard for
me to stay away from it), I didnt take responsibility for myself. I
sat staring, I skipped meals, skipped sleep, I got angry and
frustrated if anything interrupted me, I made excuses to my friends
why I couldnt go and do things with them. I neglected myself and my life.
For me, being able to have a computer, and to managing to stay with my
family where there is TV for weekends is a big improvement. I'm
working on it. Its a remarkable achievement, its a lot of work.
alcohol in her home. Congratulations to her.
any TV show. You can watch a lot of live and 'podcast' stuff. Check
out EMule for one of the more basic and widespread file sharing sites.
She can't go visiting by herself, as she's three. Do you
her off and pick her up). She has a couple of regular play-dates each
week where she goes to another child's home and stays there 5 hours or
so. The family are also AP and GD and leaning toward Unschooling
(their kids aren't yet of school age). They allow the kids to do as
they like.
She also spends a lot of time at her grandparents, where she is
allowed to watch as much TV as she likes. She even has her own room
with a TV in it there. We go there most weekends, for Friday night
dinner and stay the weekend. Sometimes I choose not to go, she goes
with her dad, sometimes she stays there without her father and I, at
her request. A lot of the time at the end of the weekend when we
prepare to go home, she asks to stay, we let her. We come pick her up
when she asks to come home, usually after a day or 2.
So far, she has never considered or questioned that we dont have a TV
at home. If/ When she does, we will talk with her openly about it.
If she wants a TV, we will get her one.
improving, then this question seems a little irrelevant.
Ela
> The background information is interesting but it won't prevent theof course, that's what I'm here for, and what I'm learning.
> need for being as clear as you can be when you're writing, and for
> knowing that the purpose of the list is to examine ideas.
>
> If you're going to cling to what you meant to write instead ofI don't deign to make any assumption as to how people that I dont
> accepting that what you post WILL be interpretted by people who see
> it and respond to it, I don't think you'll enjoy this list.
really know will interpret my words. I am LEARNING how this group
interprets my words, and I'm doing my best to make myself as clear as
possible. I think I'm getting better, and I accept any tips that
might come my way.
> -=-I was talking about children who have loving homes, large extendedWHOA!!!! how can you say that? I let the very strange cockroach
> families, plenty to eat, excellent quality of life, and fantastic
> education, without school. Children who are happy and healthy, who
> help in their family farming or fishing or weaving or whatever, as
> they like. Children who are loved and respected by their elders, who
> aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
> Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
> them. -=-
>
> You don't live there, though, nor does your daughter. I'm not sure
> anyone does. Do you have a real-life place in mind, or is this an
> idealized fantasy world? That's a serious question you should ask
> yourself, but you don't need to answer it on the list.
comment slide, but you dont know where I live and you dont know where
I have lived. You do know that I lived for a long time in the third
world, I did say when I first brought it up in a previous post, which
you quoted from, "I have a long experience living in the third world
and seen loads of families..."
When i made this comment I was talking about real people in real
places that I have been to. I'm mentioning specifically families I
spent time with in Lesotho in Africa, in Laos in South East Asia and
in Brazil. I was living in such an environment in Brazil when my
daughter was born. I spent 5 years living in various places in the
third world. Right now we live in Israel (currently trying to bomb
itself into the thrid world ;) (and just to make sure its clear, that
was a joke) )
> As to -=- Children ... whoNo, I was comparing these wonderful children to the "stereotype
> aren't "seen and not heard" or banished to play-rooms and day-care.
> Children who learn by watching and being a part of the world around
> them,-=- you're not talking about unschoolers, either.
mainstream kids", thinking that it would highlight the similarity to
western unschoolers.
I really am under the impression that unschooling is not 'keeping kids
from school' (although unschoolers do not go to school), but allowing
them to learn how/ what/ when they like at their own pace. Being
there 100% to support them without getting in the way. Letting them
involve themselves in real life. Providing a loving and nurturing
home. In a nutshell.
That is what these families I mentioned are doing. That is what I am
doing, as best I can.
> Those without any real unschoolingSorry, I got a bit lost here,
> experience can ask questions or tell applicable stories, but it's
> less helpful for those without any real unschooling experience not to
> tell us what we could be doing better or how unschooling can or does
> or should work.
"but it's less helpful for those without any real unschooling
experience not to tell us what we could be doing better or how
unschooling can or does or should work.
Did you mis-type one negative too many? I assume the "not" that comes
between "experience" and "to tell" shouldnt be there. help me out
here if I'm wrong.
I'm working my way through reading everything at Sandradodd.com, as
well as everything I can get my hands on from Holt (difficult in
Israel, most online booksellers (including Amazon) wont ship out of
print books here and I cant really afford to import books too much) as
well as anything else I can find on unschooling.
I agree that those with little experience shouldn't be doling out
advice on how to do things better or how unschooling works.
> Contrary to warm feelings, nursing a baby isn't the same ashang on, Sorry, but I really dont understand what you mean by
> unschooling. Nursing a baby is a great thing! Attachment parenting
> is a great thing. Being a gentle, attentive parent is a great
> thing. All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier
> to do, but they are not the things that happen after a family
> decides not to put a child in school at compulsory school age, or at
> the age all their neighbors are putting the toddlers into academic
> pre-schools.
"All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier to do,
but they are not the things that happen after a family decides not to
put a child in school at compulsory school age..."
Could you perhaps rephrase or clarify this for me?
> -=-My dd has her freedom. I dont "allow" her to take it, or "give" it toOkay, so I'm phrasing things wrong again... Learning to say it better,
> her, I just dont stand in her way-=-
>
> That's your decision to make, and so you give it to her. If you and
> your husband die, her freedom goes with you. Constructs that don't
> reflect reality aren't helpful to people.
to think about things differently.
Why does my daughter's freedom go if I and her father die?
3 of her 4 grandparents are retired and they are very open to our
"radical" parenting ideas. I have every reason to believe that if we
die, they will care for her with unschooling.
> Do you let adult passengers decide whether to wear their seatbelts?What do you, as unschoolers do, if your toddlers refuse to wear their
> Do you offer to tell them stories? Again, not a question to answer
> on the list, just to consider in light of principles and how they
> operate in regular life.
seatbelts? Is my GD method totally off-base?
And actually, I do offer to tell stories to adults. I used to be a
travelling story-teller, before I had my dd. (though to be honest, the
situation of an adult refusing to wear a seat-belt never came up)
> Do you seriously think, even a teensy bit, that anyone on this listDo you seriously think that I think that? I was merely pointing out
> leaves a three year old home alone?
> A four or five year old?
that there are some things that my dd actually *doesnt* have "freedom"
in. if we drive, she MUST wear a seat belt. If I go out, she MUST
come with me. I just do my best to make these MUSTs happen without
forcing.
> If you have anyI DON'T have thoughts like that, and I am seeing a therapist. Its
> thoughts like that in your mind, please consider counseling.
helping a lot.
If your
> past traumas are all mixed up in you and you have healing to doAs I said, I am working on it.
> that's keeping you from seeing clearly, the best thing you could do
> for your daughter would be to untangle as much of that confusion and
> fear as you can, as soon as possible.
> -=-But for now I feel that for me the best thingOkay, you think that, But I dont. I have a problem. Alcohol doesnt
> is not to have a TV in the house, the same way that alcoholics choose
> not to have alcohol in their homes when they choose to heal
> themselves.-=-
>
> I think it belittles alcoholism to compare it to a $100 appliance--a
> radio with pictures.
need a remote control with a mute and an off switch. It's even cheaper
than a TV, its just fermented juice. Just dont buy a drink. Switching
off the TV is just as hard for me as not buying a drink is for
alcoholics. I know its just as hard, I have been a drug addict. and
I know I can beat this, but I also know that while I'm working on it,
it's better for me not to have a TV in my home.
I know it's not a common addiction, but there are those that are
sexaholics, those that are obsessive compulsive, those that are
addicted to sniffing glue, to cigarettes, all kinds of people with
serious addictions. some physiological, all psychological.
When I have had a TV in my home (and I have had one, and I know when I
stay at my in-laws' or my parents' where there's TV, its VERY hard for
me to stay away from it), I didnt take responsibility for myself. I
sat staring, I skipped meals, skipped sleep, I got angry and
frustrated if anything interrupted me, I made excuses to my friends
why I couldnt go and do things with them. I neglected myself and my life.
For me, being able to have a computer, and to managing to stay with my
family where there is TV for weekends is a big improvement. I'm
working on it. Its a remarkable achievement, its a lot of work.
> I JUST PLAN TO LIVE IT OUT HERE IN THIS BEAUTI-I agree, your friend's statement is beautiful. She doesnt keep
> FUL PLACE AND STICK WITH MY A.A. MEETINGS. I
> GOT SOBER HERE 12/23/76 AND A GREAT BUNCH OF
> US FROM BACK THEN ARE STILL AROUND AND GLAD
> I AM BACK. A.A. IN NASHVILLE IS WONDERFUL TOO
> BUT IT WAS JUST TIME TO COME HOME IN SPITE OF
> HAVING NO CENTRAL VISION AND THE BLOOD AND
> BONE MARROW CANCER THAT SENT ME AWAT FROM
> THIS THIN AIR AND TOO HIGH FOR ME ALTITUDE.
alcohol in her home. Congratulations to her.
> There's not all that much on the internet to download, I don'tWell, I have to correct you on that one. You can download virtually
> think.
any TV show. You can watch a lot of live and 'podcast' stuff. Check
out EMule for one of the more basic and widespread file sharing sites.
She can't go visiting by herself, as she's three. Do you
> have an example of a place she's ever been where she could watch asShe sure does go visiting by herself (well, I or someone has to drop
> much TV as she likes? Do you ever leave her at anyone else's house?
> She's three.
her off and pick her up). She has a couple of regular play-dates each
week where she goes to another child's home and stays there 5 hours or
so. The family are also AP and GD and leaning toward Unschooling
(their kids aren't yet of school age). They allow the kids to do as
they like.
She also spends a lot of time at her grandparents, where she is
allowed to watch as much TV as she likes. She even has her own room
with a TV in it there. We go there most weekends, for Friday night
dinner and stay the weekend. Sometimes I choose not to go, she goes
with her dad, sometimes she stays there without her father and I, at
her request. A lot of the time at the end of the weekend when we
prepare to go home, she asks to stay, we let her. We come pick her up
when she asks to come home, usually after a day or 2.
So far, she has never considered or questioned that we dont have a TV
at home. If/ When she does, we will talk with her openly about it.
If she wants a TV, we will get her one.
> How long would you wait to work on it if you felt unable to shareSince I'm NOT waiting to work on it, but actively seeking help, and
> books with her?
improving, then this question seems a little irrelevant.
Ela
Angela S.
<What is the opinion on kids hanging out with other kids that may be 2 or
more years older or younger than them? >
My girls (ages 9 and 11) have two friends who are both almost 14 and come
play here regularly. It isn't a big deal at all. They have a common
interest that draws them together.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more years older or younger than them? >
My girls (ages 9 and 11) have two friends who are both almost 14 and come
play here regularly. It isn't a big deal at all. They have a common
interest that draws them together.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This probably seems crankier than it is. I'm calm, just frustrated.
Maybe part of the problem here is that it's "back to school time" so
we will have more new unschoolers. I've been assuming that people
who join this list have read the intro at Yahoogroups, but there are
ways to join directly (and there's one on my main page, I see)
without knowing anything but someone said "join this group."
I don't mind having new unschoolers here, but if the list is
dominated by newcomers it loses the focus of experience.
-=-Since I'm NOT waiting to work on it, but actively seeking help, and
improving, then this question seems a little irrelevant.-=-
I think most of the post was irrelevant, not being about unschooling
at all, but about defending particular statements that also weren't
really about unschooling.
There are entire unschooling lists that are anti-TV, I've been told.
If anyone here knows of one, please post it here so Ela can check it
out and see if it feels more comfortable.
-=-> Do you seriously think, even a teensy bit, that anyone on this list
The way you worded what you wrote did seem that way. You seemed to
be apologizing for not leaving yours at home. I don't want to argue
with you about it, I was trying to point out that your way of asking
was odd and seemed to suggest that others here DID leave theirs home,
but you weren't ready to do that.
-=-What do you, as unschoolers do, if your toddlers refuse to wear their
seatbelts? -=-
When the topic has come up people have told stories about like yours.
-=-Is my GD method totally off-base? -=-
I don't know what GD is, but I was hoping to help you see that it's
not about toddlers that you'd ask a passenger to wear a seatbelt.
Wouldn't you want ANYone in your car to wear a seatbelt?
-=-not a question to answer
privately, quietly, not argue about.
-=-Sorry, but I really dont understand what you mean by
"All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier to do,
but they are not the things that happen after a family decides not to
put a child in school at compulsory school age..."
-=-Could you perhaps rephrase or clarify this for me?-=-
Nursing a baby is what you would have done even if you were going to
put your child in school.
The things you're describing that you have done with your child are
things you would be doing even if you were going to put your child in
school, aren't they?
-=-Why does my daughter's freedom go if I and her father die?
3 of her 4 grandparents are retired and they are very open to our
"radical" parenting ideas. I have every reason to believe that if we
die, they will care for her with unschooling.-=-
They can choose to give her freedom or they can choose not to. The
state can decide someone is giving a child too much freedom, and
remove the child from the home. Parents have duties and
responsibilities and can't delegate those entirely to the children.
They can share generously, but the child doesn't have equal
responsibilities or freedom.
That's not about unschooling either. It's about clarity.
-=-Sorry, I got a bit lost here,
"but it's less helpful for those without any real unschooling
experience not to tell us what we could be doing better or how
unschooling can or does or should work.
Did you mis-type one negative too many? I assume the "not" that comes
between "experience" and "to tell" shouldnt be there. help me out
here if I'm wrong.
-=-
Yes. I'm sorry. There was one negative too many. What I meant was
please don't post so much as you don't have much real experience and
your posts are mostly argumentative and critical and defensive. Your
response to that was to post a really, really long post.
-=-I don't deign to make any assumption as to how people that I dont
really know will interpret my words. I am LEARNING how this group
interprets my words, and I'm doing my best to make myself as clear as
possible. -=-
This group probably doesn't interpret your words any special way.
More likely people in most groups don't bother to really read and
analyze things. They just make friendly noise whether they read the
posts or not. Because this group exists to be analytical, that's how
it goes here. We've never made anyone post; couldn't if we tried.
There's no way to do it.
-=-WHOA!!!! how can you say that? I let the very strange cockroach
comment slide-=-
You let my comment slide? Here? Thanks.
You're welcome to be on the list, but as it's intended for more
experienced unschoolers I would appreciate it if you would hang back
for a while. When you do post, share stories about successes and
good days and personal experiences with unschooling, please.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe part of the problem here is that it's "back to school time" so
we will have more new unschoolers. I've been assuming that people
who join this list have read the intro at Yahoogroups, but there are
ways to join directly (and there's one on my main page, I see)
without knowing anything but someone said "join this group."
I don't mind having new unschoolers here, but if the list is
dominated by newcomers it loses the focus of experience.
-=-Since I'm NOT waiting to work on it, but actively seeking help, and
improving, then this question seems a little irrelevant.-=-
I think most of the post was irrelevant, not being about unschooling
at all, but about defending particular statements that also weren't
really about unschooling.
There are entire unschooling lists that are anti-TV, I've been told.
If anyone here knows of one, please post it here so Ela can check it
out and see if it feels more comfortable.
-=-> Do you seriously think, even a teensy bit, that anyone on this list
> leaves a three year old home alone?Do you seriously think that I think that?-=-
> A four or five year old?
The way you worded what you wrote did seem that way. You seemed to
be apologizing for not leaving yours at home. I don't want to argue
with you about it, I was trying to point out that your way of asking
was odd and seemed to suggest that others here DID leave theirs home,
but you weren't ready to do that.
-=-What do you, as unschoolers do, if your toddlers refuse to wear their
seatbelts? -=-
When the topic has come up people have told stories about like yours.
-=-Is my GD method totally off-base? -=-
I don't know what GD is, but I was hoping to help you see that it's
not about toddlers that you'd ask a passenger to wear a seatbelt.
Wouldn't you want ANYone in your car to wear a seatbelt?
-=-not a question to answer
> on the list, just to consider in light of principles and how theySeriously. I was putting things out that you might want to consider,
> operate in regular life.-=-
privately, quietly, not argue about.
-=-Sorry, but I really dont understand what you mean by
"All of those have aspects that will make unschooling easier to do,
but they are not the things that happen after a family decides not to
put a child in school at compulsory school age..."
-=-Could you perhaps rephrase or clarify this for me?-=-
Nursing a baby is what you would have done even if you were going to
put your child in school.
The things you're describing that you have done with your child are
things you would be doing even if you were going to put your child in
school, aren't they?
-=-Why does my daughter's freedom go if I and her father die?
3 of her 4 grandparents are retired and they are very open to our
"radical" parenting ideas. I have every reason to believe that if we
die, they will care for her with unschooling.-=-
They can choose to give her freedom or they can choose not to. The
state can decide someone is giving a child too much freedom, and
remove the child from the home. Parents have duties and
responsibilities and can't delegate those entirely to the children.
They can share generously, but the child doesn't have equal
responsibilities or freedom.
That's not about unschooling either. It's about clarity.
-=-Sorry, I got a bit lost here,
"but it's less helpful for those without any real unschooling
experience not to tell us what we could be doing better or how
unschooling can or does or should work.
Did you mis-type one negative too many? I assume the "not" that comes
between "experience" and "to tell" shouldnt be there. help me out
here if I'm wrong.
-=-
Yes. I'm sorry. There was one negative too many. What I meant was
please don't post so much as you don't have much real experience and
your posts are mostly argumentative and critical and defensive. Your
response to that was to post a really, really long post.
-=-I don't deign to make any assumption as to how people that I dont
really know will interpret my words. I am LEARNING how this group
interprets my words, and I'm doing my best to make myself as clear as
possible. -=-
This group probably doesn't interpret your words any special way.
More likely people in most groups don't bother to really read and
analyze things. They just make friendly noise whether they read the
posts or not. Because this group exists to be analytical, that's how
it goes here. We've never made anyone post; couldn't if we tried.
There's no way to do it.
-=-WHOA!!!! how can you say that? I let the very strange cockroach
comment slide-=-
You let my comment slide? Here? Thanks.
You're welcome to be on the list, but as it's intended for more
experienced unschoolers I would appreciate it if you would hang back
for a while. When you do post, share stories about successes and
good days and personal experiences with unschooling, please.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 11, 2006, at 8:36 PM, elamajikfaerie wrote:
third world societies they're growing up in, yes? Or do they feel
it's equally likely that their kids will follow in their parents'
footsteps as be a corporate lawyer in Paris?
Some parents *do* choose in America to live away from technology.
They feel the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. They feel the
good things they gain outweigh the good things they give up.
That's true of every choice we make. There are good parts and bad
parts of every choice. Good and bad parts of the choice we make. Good
and bad parts of the choices we reject. When we choose we choose
(hopefully!) because the good stuff we gain outweighs the good stuff
we lose.
Unschooling is the same. We could gain a chunk of free time during
the day if we sent our kids to school. We could have the comforting
feeling (the illusion ;-) that they are being well prepared by
experts. We wouldn't have to work so hard to find activities and
friends and be involved in their lives. We could give them access to
opportunities that many kids have fond memories of that aren't
easily recreated outside of school: school newspaper, yearbook,
marching band, cheerleading, school sports (in some areas). (I could
go on. Though it was hard coming up with those ;-)
Most unschoolers will say "Yeah, but ..." to that list. In many cases
unschoolers found something better. In some cases unschoolers decided
it's not as important as something else they've gained.
*Every* choice we make we give good things up. Even heroin. If there
weren't good parts of drugs and alcohol, no one would do them!
I think if you were able to step back and look at your posts
objectively, what you're trying to argue and get people to agree with
is that unschooling without TV is just as good as unschooling with
TV. And your supporting evidence is that TV is bad for you. That
those in loving homes without technology grow up just fine. That she
can have TV away from your home and TV-like things at home.
Perhaps, for right now, the best thing for your family is to not have
TV while you work out your issues. The bad effect of having a TV
could outweigh the good effect. That's personal to you and your
family. Only you can really know (though others can point out where
you aren't be objective.) But I think it will help you think about
the issue clearly if you accept that you *are* giving something
valuable up. It will help you to look at the situation objectively
and see clearly what you're giving up to get something else (time to
work out your problems with TV.)
It *won't* help you to try to get others to agree with you. It
*won't* help you to try to deny that what you're giving up isn't
important.
It will also help you see the situation clearly to see that you don't
have years and years to work through your issues. At 3 my daughter
wasn't much interested in broadcast TV. She watched some videos and
movies. But by 6 she had favorite shows. In between 3 and 6 she did
some exploring and experimenting to find those shows.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> BeingI assume they're picturing their children living as adults in the
> there 100% to support them without getting in the way. Letting them
> involve themselves in real life. Providing a loving and nurturing
> home. In a nutshell.
> That is what these families I mentioned are doing. That is what I am
> doing, as best I can.
third world societies they're growing up in, yes? Or do they feel
it's equally likely that their kids will follow in their parents'
footsteps as be a corporate lawyer in Paris?
Some parents *do* choose in America to live away from technology.
They feel the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. They feel the
good things they gain outweigh the good things they give up.
That's true of every choice we make. There are good parts and bad
parts of every choice. Good and bad parts of the choice we make. Good
and bad parts of the choices we reject. When we choose we choose
(hopefully!) because the good stuff we gain outweighs the good stuff
we lose.
Unschooling is the same. We could gain a chunk of free time during
the day if we sent our kids to school. We could have the comforting
feeling (the illusion ;-) that they are being well prepared by
experts. We wouldn't have to work so hard to find activities and
friends and be involved in their lives. We could give them access to
opportunities that many kids have fond memories of that aren't
easily recreated outside of school: school newspaper, yearbook,
marching band, cheerleading, school sports (in some areas). (I could
go on. Though it was hard coming up with those ;-)
Most unschoolers will say "Yeah, but ..." to that list. In many cases
unschoolers found something better. In some cases unschoolers decided
it's not as important as something else they've gained.
*Every* choice we make we give good things up. Even heroin. If there
weren't good parts of drugs and alcohol, no one would do them!
I think if you were able to step back and look at your posts
objectively, what you're trying to argue and get people to agree with
is that unschooling without TV is just as good as unschooling with
TV. And your supporting evidence is that TV is bad for you. That
those in loving homes without technology grow up just fine. That she
can have TV away from your home and TV-like things at home.
Perhaps, for right now, the best thing for your family is to not have
TV while you work out your issues. The bad effect of having a TV
could outweigh the good effect. That's personal to you and your
family. Only you can really know (though others can point out where
you aren't be objective.) But I think it will help you think about
the issue clearly if you accept that you *are* giving something
valuable up. It will help you to look at the situation objectively
and see clearly what you're giving up to get something else (time to
work out your problems with TV.)
It *won't* help you to try to get others to agree with you. It
*won't* help you to try to deny that what you're giving up isn't
important.
It will also help you see the situation clearly to see that you don't
have years and years to work through your issues. At 3 my daughter
wasn't much interested in broadcast TV. She watched some videos and
movies. But by 6 she had favorite shows. In between 3 and 6 she did
some exploring and experimenting to find those shows.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Rod Thomas"
<rodneykathy@...> wrote:
2.5 to 26! Part of the school-mindset that has pervaded our culture
is that kids "need" to be with same-age peers. It's not true, but it
can be hard to argue with, if someone has really bought into it.
It's also possible, under the circumstances, that the mom was
concerned that she was going to be "babysitting" a younger kid -
have the boys hung out together at her house before? How much time
have y'all spent hanging out with them as a family? Would the boys
be willing to hang out at y'all's house instead? Maybe the issue
isn't really age but something else and mom is just pulling out
a "truism" as a quick-and-dirty "reason". Coming at the issue from a
different angle may be more helpful in terms of facilitating the
boys spending time together.
---Meredith
<rodneykathy@...> wrote:
> My son was going to visit and stay over with a friend and his momsaid
> no, that her son needs to find friends his own age. My son is 131/2
> and hers is 16 (in one week).My dd's a lot younger (5) but she has friends who range in age from
2.5 to 26! Part of the school-mindset that has pervaded our culture
is that kids "need" to be with same-age peers. It's not true, but it
can be hard to argue with, if someone has really bought into it.
It's also possible, under the circumstances, that the mom was
concerned that she was going to be "babysitting" a younger kid -
have the boys hung out together at her house before? How much time
have y'all spent hanging out with them as a family? Would the boys
be willing to hang out at y'all's house instead? Maybe the issue
isn't really age but something else and mom is just pulling out
a "truism" as a quick-and-dirty "reason". Coming at the issue from a
different angle may be more helpful in terms of facilitating the
boys spending time together.
---Meredith
lerato majikfaerie
Well, I must say, when I first started searching and researching on the
web about unschooling, finding Sandra's website and a seeminly endless
list of yahoo and google groups and tribes... I joined most all of the
groups I could find and lurked around till I found ones that I felt
were appropriate to me.
At first and even second glance, a lot of them look more-or-less very
similar, I am on Always Unschooled. I did read the main page of
AlwaysLearning, and it just doesnt mention anything about being an
"experienced" unschoolers' list. it says:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made unschooling
a sweet and viable option for thousands of families. This is a
moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not moderated
in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.) It's an
idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure unschooling than
neutral, general homeschooling discussionthere are hundreds of general
homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to focus more toward how
people learn no matter where in the world they are, rather than on
what's legal in any particular country or jurisdiction. If you have
questions or complaints, write to...
Perhaps you like to edit it to mention something about being more for
experienced folk. If I'd known that, I probably would have held off on
posting.
Anyway, All this discussion did teach me a lot, and also got me
thinking about my TV problem (which is not an addiction in the sence
that I get withdrawls and cravings for it, but if there's a TV on in
the room I Physically (almost) cannot tear my eyes from it). So I went
to my doctor today, I'm going to be tested for some form of epilepsy
that could be causing such a problem (I'm also showing other typical
symptoms).
So thanks for everything, I'll just go back to my lurking ;-)
Ela
____________________________________________________
On Yahoo!7
Photos: Unlimited free storage keep all your photos in one place!
http://au.photos.yahoo.com
web about unschooling, finding Sandra's website and a seeminly endless
list of yahoo and google groups and tribes... I joined most all of the
groups I could find and lurked around till I found ones that I felt
were appropriate to me.
At first and even second glance, a lot of them look more-or-less very
similar, I am on Always Unschooled. I did read the main page of
AlwaysLearning, and it just doesnt mention anything about being an
"experienced" unschoolers' list. it says:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made unschooling
a sweet and viable option for thousands of families. This is a
moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not moderated
in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.) It's an
idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure unschooling than
neutral, general homeschooling discussionthere are hundreds of general
homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to focus more toward how
people learn no matter where in the world they are, rather than on
what's legal in any particular country or jurisdiction. If you have
questions or complaints, write to...
Perhaps you like to edit it to mention something about being more for
experienced folk. If I'd known that, I probably would have held off on
posting.
Anyway, All this discussion did teach me a lot, and also got me
thinking about my TV problem (which is not an addiction in the sence
that I get withdrawls and cravings for it, but if there's a TV on in
the room I Physically (almost) cannot tear my eyes from it). So I went
to my doctor today, I'm going to be tested for some form of epilepsy
that could be causing such a problem (I'm also showing other typical
symptoms).
So thanks for everything, I'll just go back to my lurking ;-)
Ela
____________________________________________________
On Yahoo!7
Photos: Unlimited free storage keep all your photos in one place!
http://au.photos.yahoo.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's an
idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure unschooling than
neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are hundreds of general
homeschooling discussions for newcomers.-=-
The mention of how many general discussions for newcomers was
intended to contrast this with those.
I could make it clearer, I suppose.
I don't mind new unschoolers who want to read and think and talk
about how learning works. I definitely don't want it to be anything
like "Which states are good to move to" or "How do I register in
Florida."
-=-Anyway, All this discussion did teach me a lot, and also got me
thinking about my TV problem (which is not an addiction in the sence
that I get withdrawls and cravings for it, but if there's a TV on in
the room I Physically (almost) cannot tear my eyes from it). So I went
to my doctor today, I'm going to be tested for some form of epilepsy
that could be causing such a problem (I'm also showing other typical
symptoms).-=-
Let us know, when you know more, which form of epilepsy sticks people
to the TV.
It would be worth knowing that there could be something like that
that parents could test their TV-watching kids for.
Maybe there's medication.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure unschooling than
neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are hundreds of general
homeschooling discussions for newcomers.-=-
The mention of how many general discussions for newcomers was
intended to contrast this with those.
I could make it clearer, I suppose.
I don't mind new unschoolers who want to read and think and talk
about how learning works. I definitely don't want it to be anything
like "Which states are good to move to" or "How do I register in
Florida."
-=-Anyway, All this discussion did teach me a lot, and also got me
thinking about my TV problem (which is not an addiction in the sence
that I get withdrawls and cravings for it, but if there's a TV on in
the room I Physically (almost) cannot tear my eyes from it). So I went
to my doctor today, I'm going to be tested for some form of epilepsy
that could be causing such a problem (I'm also showing other typical
symptoms).-=-
Let us know, when you know more, which form of epilepsy sticks people
to the TV.
It would be worth knowing that there could be something like that
that parents could test their TV-watching kids for.
Maybe there's medication.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
<<<<What kind of answer do you want?
If you want rules, you came to the wrong list!>>>>
I just wanted advice on a simple question. The other parent is the one
with the age difference problem. I thought you all might know of an
angle this mother is thinking of that I hadn't considered. Can't I just
get a simple answer, without the arrogance, implied stupidity?
I try REALLY, REALLY hard to not say the wrong thing, step lightly, use
the right words the first time (because God knows there is no going
back).
Can't you just hand out the wisdom without the condescending bs? I
sense frustration. That last exchange with Ela was brutal.
I really did think this list was for help, not just for confirmed
radicals to share stories.
I have gained a lot from other posters. But at this point I should look
elsewhere for what I need. No response necessary.
Flyerkat
If you want rules, you came to the wrong list!>>>>
I just wanted advice on a simple question. The other parent is the one
with the age difference problem. I thought you all might know of an
angle this mother is thinking of that I hadn't considered. Can't I just
get a simple answer, without the arrogance, implied stupidity?
I try REALLY, REALLY hard to not say the wrong thing, step lightly, use
the right words the first time (because God knows there is no going
back).
Can't you just hand out the wisdom without the condescending bs? I
sense frustration. That last exchange with Ela was brutal.
I really did think this list was for help, not just for confirmed
radicals to share stories.
I have gained a lot from other posters. But at this point I should look
elsewhere for what I need. No response necessary.
Flyerkat
Sandra Dodd
-=-I really did think this list was for help, not just for confirmed
radicals to share stories.-=-
Many people are helped by the stories of confirmed radicals.
-=-Can't you just hand out the wisdom without the condescending bs?-=-
I can share stories, as a confirmed radical. It's not bullshit. Not
sure it's wisdom, but I'm sure it's not bullshit.
-=-Can't I just get a simple answer, -=-
How much would you pay for a simple answer?
Where would you go to get one? Child psychologist? Policeman?
Because for FREE I think there were half a dozen stories told by
people who did have experience, and potential reasons for the woman's
objection. I thought the responses were quick and good.
What we cannot do is state a rule that can be carried back to the
other mom to make her change her mind. There isn't a rule that says
she has to let anyone else's kid visit.
A request for a simple answer and complaints about complicated answer
which are (if you're LUCKY, stories from confirmed radicals) seems to
me to be someone saying "I don't want to think about this or
understand it, just TELL me."
-=-I try REALLY, REALLY hard to not say the wrong thing, step
lightly, use
the right words the first time (because God knows there is no going
back).-=-
That's good in any situation, isn't it? Shouldn't all of life be
that way?
I just got back from a wedding. There were social complications
prior to this. There were many friends of the ex boyfriend,
relatives who liked him better than this guy, people wanting this to
work, but still... there was more mystery and tension than most other
weddings that don't involve shotguns (real or figurative). People
were trying hard not to say the wrong thing, to step lightly and use
the right words the first time.
-=-Can't you just hand out the wisdom without the condescending bs?-=-
This list isn't for the handing out of wisdom. It's not a drive
through window. It's a place for people who want to examine
unschooling deeply and carefully can learn. Some learn fast and some
learn slowly, but I didn't think many wanted to be taught, or
delivered simple wisdom quick by Friday.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
radicals to share stories.-=-
Many people are helped by the stories of confirmed radicals.
-=-Can't you just hand out the wisdom without the condescending bs?-=-
I can share stories, as a confirmed radical. It's not bullshit. Not
sure it's wisdom, but I'm sure it's not bullshit.
-=-Can't I just get a simple answer, -=-
How much would you pay for a simple answer?
Where would you go to get one? Child psychologist? Policeman?
Because for FREE I think there were half a dozen stories told by
people who did have experience, and potential reasons for the woman's
objection. I thought the responses were quick and good.
What we cannot do is state a rule that can be carried back to the
other mom to make her change her mind. There isn't a rule that says
she has to let anyone else's kid visit.
A request for a simple answer and complaints about complicated answer
which are (if you're LUCKY, stories from confirmed radicals) seems to
me to be someone saying "I don't want to think about this or
understand it, just TELL me."
-=-I try REALLY, REALLY hard to not say the wrong thing, step
lightly, use
the right words the first time (because God knows there is no going
back).-=-
That's good in any situation, isn't it? Shouldn't all of life be
that way?
I just got back from a wedding. There were social complications
prior to this. There were many friends of the ex boyfriend,
relatives who liked him better than this guy, people wanting this to
work, but still... there was more mystery and tension than most other
weddings that don't involve shotguns (real or figurative). People
were trying hard not to say the wrong thing, to step lightly and use
the right words the first time.
-=-Can't you just hand out the wisdom without the condescending bs?-=-
This list isn't for the handing out of wisdom. It's not a drive
through window. It's a place for people who want to examine
unschooling deeply and carefully can learn. Some learn fast and some
learn slowly, but I didn't think many wanted to be taught, or
delivered simple wisdom quick by Friday.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lerato majikfaerie
I shall let you know, when i know more.
Deb, sorry you feel that way.
There are many forms of epilepsy, many of them do not cause that kind
of "seizure".
(I've been on my google all morning)
Actually, I can and do, on occasion, stare without moving at my
computer screen saver for an hour or more. Obviously, I was staring at
it for long enough for the screen saver to start up in the first place.
Generally, because the computer is more 'interactive' than a TV, which
is usually pretty passive, I can avoid this.
I can't stand electrical noise, like if the screen is left on after the
computer is turned off, the noise drives me crazy (most people can't
even hear it). Flourescent lights make me feel ill in a nervous kind
of way. I often have the sensation of being very large or very small or
very far away from things, like my sense of spatial perception just had
a fit. I have a LOT of deja vu and some sensory hallucinations, like
smells that arent there. I can just stop suddenly and stand,
motionless, thoughtless for half a minute or more without noticing.
I do think that if parents notice unusual behaviours in their children,
like watching TV to the point of being in a 'trance', then they might
get some tests done, but I wouldnt want to scare parents with visions
of epileptic fits just because their kids watch a lot of TV.
My parents didnt notice this in me growing up because they werent there
most of the time, unschooling parents would definately notice something
like that in their child.
Ela
____________________________________________________
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Deb, sorry you feel that way.
There are many forms of epilepsy, many of them do not cause that kind
of "seizure".
(I've been on my google all morning)
Actually, I can and do, on occasion, stare without moving at my
computer screen saver for an hour or more. Obviously, I was staring at
it for long enough for the screen saver to start up in the first place.
Generally, because the computer is more 'interactive' than a TV, which
is usually pretty passive, I can avoid this.
I can't stand electrical noise, like if the screen is left on after the
computer is turned off, the noise drives me crazy (most people can't
even hear it). Flourescent lights make me feel ill in a nervous kind
of way. I often have the sensation of being very large or very small or
very far away from things, like my sense of spatial perception just had
a fit. I have a LOT of deja vu and some sensory hallucinations, like
smells that arent there. I can just stop suddenly and stand,
motionless, thoughtless for half a minute or more without noticing.
I do think that if parents notice unusual behaviours in their children,
like watching TV to the point of being in a 'trance', then they might
get some tests done, but I wouldnt want to scare parents with visions
of epileptic fits just because their kids watch a lot of TV.
My parents didnt notice this in me growing up because they werent there
most of the time, unschooling parents would definately notice something
like that in their child.
Ela
____________________________________________________
On Yahoo!7
The new Yahoo!7 home page - scan your email inbox, start an IM conversation or update your blog
http://au.yahoo.com/
Sandra Dodd
-=-Actually, I can and do, on occasion, stare without moving at my
computer screen saver for an hour or more. -=-
Does your daughter?
If this is a problem in you, maybe get a TV for her and some therapy
for you. But the therapy might be "Stand up and walk if you know
you're just sitting there staring."
-=-Obviously, I was staring at
it for long enough for the screen saver to start up in the first
place.-=-
Staring without reading or moving your hands? Staring and thinking
about something else? Asleep? Screensavers don't usually take an
hour to turn on.
-=-Generally, because the computer is more 'interactive' than a TV,
which
is usually pretty passive, I can avoid this.-=-
I haven't found TV to be so passive with my kids or with me.
Especially if I'm watching with someone else, we're interacting about
what we're seeing.
-=-I can't stand electrical noise, like if the screen is left on
after the
computer is turned off, the noise drives me crazy (most people can't
even hear it). Flourescent lights make me feel ill in a nervous kind
of way. -=-
I'm that way about a lot of little sounds others don't hear. There
are places and things I avoid. If someone's going to use nail
clippers, I leave the building (or get at least two rooms away). I
cannot be in the room where someone else clips nails with nail
clippers. Clipping my own isn't as bad, but I only do it after a
bath or shower, and I don't usually do toes AND fingers, just the
worst places and then I stop.
Because of that I could forbid nail clippers in my home, or refuse to
buy them for people, or tell my family they could clip their nails at
other people's houses but not mine.
-=-I often have the sensation of being very large or very small or
very far away from things, like my sense of spatial perception just had
a fit.-=-
I know those things--other objects look far away, and the room
distorts in your mind.
That can be from lack of protein. Are you vegetarian, or do you not
eat very often? Try to see if that's happening when you're hungry.
Also breathe more deeply more often. Shallow breathing for too long
at a time can make one "light-headed" and light headedness can bring
those kinds of perceptual oddities. If you breathe deeply a few
times each half hour or so, and if you have a small protein snack (an
egg, a handful of nuts, an ounce of cheese) every two hours or so, I
bet that will decrease or go away completely.
-=-I do think that if parents notice unusual behaviours in their
children,
like watching TV to the point of being in a 'trance', then they might
get some tests done,-=-
NO! Absolutely not. Because being intensely involved in hearing a
storyteller or listening to live music or reading a book can produce
what appears to others to be like a trance, but being "entranced" by
something isn't epilepsy. It's an intense interest that some people
never really experience. And it's a wonderful thing. And just
because the people outside you can't see what you're thinking or hear
what you're hearing or feel what you're feeling doesn't mean you're
"doing nothing."
-=-My parents didnt notice this in me growing up because they werent
there
most of the time, unschooling parents would definately notice something
like that in their child.-=-
From the things you're writing, it seems you're having a hard time
seeing your child directly, but you're seeing her through a filter of
your experiences and fears and justifications.
If you really can sit in front of a computer for an hour in a trance,
where is she during that time? Can you spend more time with her
seeing what she really likes and wants and needs?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
computer screen saver for an hour or more. -=-
Does your daughter?
If this is a problem in you, maybe get a TV for her and some therapy
for you. But the therapy might be "Stand up and walk if you know
you're just sitting there staring."
-=-Obviously, I was staring at
it for long enough for the screen saver to start up in the first
place.-=-
Staring without reading or moving your hands? Staring and thinking
about something else? Asleep? Screensavers don't usually take an
hour to turn on.
-=-Generally, because the computer is more 'interactive' than a TV,
which
is usually pretty passive, I can avoid this.-=-
I haven't found TV to be so passive with my kids or with me.
Especially if I'm watching with someone else, we're interacting about
what we're seeing.
-=-I can't stand electrical noise, like if the screen is left on
after the
computer is turned off, the noise drives me crazy (most people can't
even hear it). Flourescent lights make me feel ill in a nervous kind
of way. -=-
I'm that way about a lot of little sounds others don't hear. There
are places and things I avoid. If someone's going to use nail
clippers, I leave the building (or get at least two rooms away). I
cannot be in the room where someone else clips nails with nail
clippers. Clipping my own isn't as bad, but I only do it after a
bath or shower, and I don't usually do toes AND fingers, just the
worst places and then I stop.
Because of that I could forbid nail clippers in my home, or refuse to
buy them for people, or tell my family they could clip their nails at
other people's houses but not mine.
-=-I often have the sensation of being very large or very small or
very far away from things, like my sense of spatial perception just had
a fit.-=-
I know those things--other objects look far away, and the room
distorts in your mind.
That can be from lack of protein. Are you vegetarian, or do you not
eat very often? Try to see if that's happening when you're hungry.
Also breathe more deeply more often. Shallow breathing for too long
at a time can make one "light-headed" and light headedness can bring
those kinds of perceptual oddities. If you breathe deeply a few
times each half hour or so, and if you have a small protein snack (an
egg, a handful of nuts, an ounce of cheese) every two hours or so, I
bet that will decrease or go away completely.
-=-I do think that if parents notice unusual behaviours in their
children,
like watching TV to the point of being in a 'trance', then they might
get some tests done,-=-
NO! Absolutely not. Because being intensely involved in hearing a
storyteller or listening to live music or reading a book can produce
what appears to others to be like a trance, but being "entranced" by
something isn't epilepsy. It's an intense interest that some people
never really experience. And it's a wonderful thing. And just
because the people outside you can't see what you're thinking or hear
what you're hearing or feel what you're feeling doesn't mean you're
"doing nothing."
-=-My parents didnt notice this in me growing up because they werent
there
most of the time, unschooling parents would definately notice something
like that in their child.-=-
From the things you're writing, it seems you're having a hard time
seeing your child directly, but you're seeing her through a filter of
your experiences and fears and justifications.
If you really can sit in front of a computer for an hour in a trance,
where is she during that time? Can you spend more time with her
seeing what she really likes and wants and needs?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***There are many forms of epilepsy, many of them do not cause that kind
of "seizure".***
My mom began having seizures during a recent illness and they seem to be
continuing. She becomes perfectly still and makes a snoring/blowing
sound, pupils dilate and when it's over she pees herself. I took care
of a woman for a couple of weeks whose seizures took the form of eerie
humming and hand motions.
I hope you don't have a seizure disorder because there's a risk to anti
seizure medications and they can cause birth defects and if you have
seizures they won't let you drive anymore and it could complicate you
being alone with your kid.
But lots of people stare, myself included. I sometimes stare until the
screen saver comes on. My screen saver is set to start after three
minutes but I can adjust it if I want to stare longer. <g> Last time we
went camping I stared at the camp fire for an hour, just sitting and
staring and quiet. I could have spent a lot of money and a week at a spa
for that kind of relaxation. I knew a recovering alcoholic who stared;
it's apparently common during symptoms of alcohol withdrawal, too. Some
people in deep thought stare. Some people who consistently don't get
enough sleep stare. Some people who are depressed stare.
It's so common a thing in the brains of humans that we have slang
terminology for it. Spacing out. Zoning out.
If I was zoning out more often than I thought was normal I'd check my
water intake and my fuel consumption. Food helps almost everything. <g>
My employer crashes about four in the afternoon and she resolves it with
a bottle of water and a handful of peanuts. Without her "fix" she will
sit and stare. Isn't that why the Brits embraced High Tea?
Some people can get comfortable with the way they are and understand
everyone has quirks and sensitivities and some people look for things to
be wrong. Some people haven't examined their lives enough to understand
what residual emotional pain might be contributing to their seemingly
automatic behaviors. Some people never think about consciously
addressing those things about themselves that could use attention. Some
people think they're more interesting if their different or sick.
***I do think that if parents notice unusual behaviours in their
children,
like watching TV to the point of being in a 'trance', then they might
get some tests done,***
People already do that and kids are medicated into conformity. If they
don't read enough, if they don't sit still long enough, if they aren't
quiet when we want them to be, if they aren't busy when we want them to
be, if they seem angry, if they're too energetic, if they draw pictures
we don't like, if they want foods we don't want them to have...
We don't get to be inside the heads of our kids. They have a right to
think their own thoughts and feel their own feelings and we don't have
any right to know exactly what our kids are thinking and feeling at all
times. We might wish we had ownership of their brains and that we could
turn over little bits of it to them if they could prove they would use it
they way we want them to, but what's inside their head belongs to them.
If a kid is deeply engrossed in something on TV and the mom doesn't
understand why someone would watch it, let alone watch with deep interest
that doesn't mean the kid is in a trance. The kids who are made to feel
like something is wrong with them become psychologically altered by the
intervention. They hand over responsibility of themselves and their
actions to a diagnosis. They feel and internalize a "disorder" that
isn't real.
Deb L
of "seizure".***
My mom began having seizures during a recent illness and they seem to be
continuing. She becomes perfectly still and makes a snoring/blowing
sound, pupils dilate and when it's over she pees herself. I took care
of a woman for a couple of weeks whose seizures took the form of eerie
humming and hand motions.
I hope you don't have a seizure disorder because there's a risk to anti
seizure medications and they can cause birth defects and if you have
seizures they won't let you drive anymore and it could complicate you
being alone with your kid.
But lots of people stare, myself included. I sometimes stare until the
screen saver comes on. My screen saver is set to start after three
minutes but I can adjust it if I want to stare longer. <g> Last time we
went camping I stared at the camp fire for an hour, just sitting and
staring and quiet. I could have spent a lot of money and a week at a spa
for that kind of relaxation. I knew a recovering alcoholic who stared;
it's apparently common during symptoms of alcohol withdrawal, too. Some
people in deep thought stare. Some people who consistently don't get
enough sleep stare. Some people who are depressed stare.
It's so common a thing in the brains of humans that we have slang
terminology for it. Spacing out. Zoning out.
If I was zoning out more often than I thought was normal I'd check my
water intake and my fuel consumption. Food helps almost everything. <g>
My employer crashes about four in the afternoon and she resolves it with
a bottle of water and a handful of peanuts. Without her "fix" she will
sit and stare. Isn't that why the Brits embraced High Tea?
Some people can get comfortable with the way they are and understand
everyone has quirks and sensitivities and some people look for things to
be wrong. Some people haven't examined their lives enough to understand
what residual emotional pain might be contributing to their seemingly
automatic behaviors. Some people never think about consciously
addressing those things about themselves that could use attention. Some
people think they're more interesting if their different or sick.
***I do think that if parents notice unusual behaviours in their
children,
like watching TV to the point of being in a 'trance', then they might
get some tests done,***
People already do that and kids are medicated into conformity. If they
don't read enough, if they don't sit still long enough, if they aren't
quiet when we want them to be, if they aren't busy when we want them to
be, if they seem angry, if they're too energetic, if they draw pictures
we don't like, if they want foods we don't want them to have...
We don't get to be inside the heads of our kids. They have a right to
think their own thoughts and feel their own feelings and we don't have
any right to know exactly what our kids are thinking and feeling at all
times. We might wish we had ownership of their brains and that we could
turn over little bits of it to them if they could prove they would use it
they way we want them to, but what's inside their head belongs to them.
If a kid is deeply engrossed in something on TV and the mom doesn't
understand why someone would watch it, let alone watch with deep interest
that doesn't mean the kid is in a trance. The kids who are made to feel
like something is wrong with them become psychologically altered by the
intervention. They hand over responsibility of themselves and their
actions to a diagnosis. They feel and internalize a "disorder" that
isn't real.
Deb L
Gold Standard
>>I hope you don't have a seizure disorder because there's a risk to antiJust wanted to note that seizures aren't this clear-cut. There are
>>seizure medications and they can cause birth defects and if you have
>>seizures they won't let you drive anymore and it could complicate you
>>being alone with your kid.<<
parameters for seizures and driving. I have a friend with petit mal
seizures, considered epileptic, and he is allowed to drive as long as he
takes his medication. There is a variety of treatments and medications for
the variety of seizure disorders, from no treatment at all to heavy-duty
drugs. A person could have a seizure disorder and not know it, and it could
become evident through something like flicking lights or TV.
Jacki, whose oldest had lots of petit mal seizures as a young child, shown
on an eeg, but never took anything and grew out of them...tv-watching still
unlimited, self-regulating still occurred.