Advise Needed
brownstefani
Desperately seeking opinions on the subject of attending high school!
My almost fifteen year old daughter has just brought up that she
would like to attend school come September. In fact she was quite
nervous to bring it up to me because she knows that I will do my
best to discourage her. I don't mean to, but I can't seem to help
thinking that high school is the last thing that she needs right
now.
Am I crazy to want to find ANY other option? Of course I realize
that if this is what she really wants then that's what we'll have to
sort out (and I told her so) but what I guess I really want is an
unschooling perspective on where to go from here.
She seems to think that without a high school diploma she'll never
be able to get a job, and no amount of me telling her that's not
true will convince her otherwise.
Thanks in advance for any and all advise
Stefani in Toronto, Canada
My almost fifteen year old daughter has just brought up that she
would like to attend school come September. In fact she was quite
nervous to bring it up to me because she knows that I will do my
best to discourage her. I don't mean to, but I can't seem to help
thinking that high school is the last thing that she needs right
now.
Am I crazy to want to find ANY other option? Of course I realize
that if this is what she really wants then that's what we'll have to
sort out (and I told her so) but what I guess I really want is an
unschooling perspective on where to go from here.
She seems to think that without a high school diploma she'll never
be able to get a job, and no amount of me telling her that's not
true will convince her otherwise.
Thanks in advance for any and all advise
Stefani in Toronto, Canada
Sandra Dodd
-=-My almost fifteen year old daughter has just brought up that she
would like to attend school come September. In fact she was quite
nervous to bring it up to me because she knows that I will do my
best to discourage her. I don't mean to, but I can't seem to help
thinking that high school is the last thing that she needs right
now. -=-
Was she in school before?
For how long?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
would like to attend school come September. In fact she was quite
nervous to bring it up to me because she knows that I will do my
best to discourage her. I don't mean to, but I can't seem to help
thinking that high school is the last thing that she needs right
now. -=-
Was she in school before?
For how long?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Diane Bentzen
> -=-My almost fifteen year old daughter has justIs it primarily because she wants to be employable, or
> brought up that she
> would like to attend school come September.
does she have other major reasons for wanting to go?
:-) Diane
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
My 15yo daughter wants to go to high school this year as well. I am supporting her decision the same way I did when she wanted to do gymnastics or learn to play the piano. Of course, I realize that the reason my 15yo wants to go to school is because that is where the 17yo boys are.....educational issues are rather irrelevant in this particular case.
I called the school to see what was involved. We talked about how her math computation skills might need some work. She is spending this summer working with a tutor once a week (The tutor is thrilled with the fact that Adriane isn't afraid of math and understands the concepts already, just needs to "math language" to put to it).
I personally don't think it is fair to try to talk her out of it. I did talk to her about which responsibilities I was willing to take on to support her and which ones I wasn't. I am not driving back and forth to school for example, she will have to take the bus.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I called the school to see what was involved. We talked about how her math computation skills might need some work. She is spending this summer working with a tutor once a week (The tutor is thrilled with the fact that Adriane isn't afraid of math and understands the concepts already, just needs to "math language" to put to it).
I personally don't think it is fair to try to talk her out of it. I did talk to her about which responsibilities I was willing to take on to support her and which ones I wasn't. I am not driving back and forth to school for example, she will have to take the bus.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Not having a high school diploma didn't keep my always unschooled daughter
out of college, AND she got her first paid job BECAUSE she was unschooled - her
dance studio needed someone to cover the afternoon classes of a teacher going
on maternity leave, none of the regular teachers were available for that time
and the older assistants were in school. She's been employed by them ever
since.
It's an interesting twist. :)
Deborah in IL
out of college, AND she got her first paid job BECAUSE she was unschooled - her
dance studio needed someone to cover the afternoon classes of a teacher going
on maternity leave, none of the regular teachers were available for that time
and the older assistants were in school. She's been employed by them ever
since.
It's an interesting twist. :)
Deborah in IL
lynne4t
--- In [email protected], "brownstefani"
<stefanibrown@...> wrote:
crazy. I'm going through the exact same thing with my 12 yr-old dd.
She's never been to school and wants to try it because she thinks it's
going to be fun. It was recommended to me that I have her read or at
least browse a couple of books, The Teenage Liberation Handbook and
Dumbing Us Down. I got the books and read them myself and now I'm
even more against her going to school. I really do want it to be her
decision to be home, but I can't get over the fact that there are
negative things that will happen to her and the special person she is
and the great mind she has if she goes to school. Things that she
won't even realize are happening. I know there are ways for me to
help negate these forces, but she'll be under their control for 6
continuous hours a day.
I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little young
for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
of school make this huge decision ? Or should I as the most trusted
person in her life, guide her away from it in everyway possible, in
the same way I guided her away from physical dangers when she was too
young to understand my words? How do I do this without damaging our
relationship?
So Stephanie, I don't think you're crazy and I too need some advice.
For some reason, I guess it's easier for some than others. :)
<stefanibrown@...> wrote:
>I understand completely where your coming from and I don't think it's
> Am I crazy to want to find ANY other option? Of course I realize
> that if this is what she really wants then that's what we'll have to
> sort out (and I told her so) but what I guess I really want is an
> unschooling perspective on where to go from here.
>
crazy. I'm going through the exact same thing with my 12 yr-old dd.
She's never been to school and wants to try it because she thinks it's
going to be fun. It was recommended to me that I have her read or at
least browse a couple of books, The Teenage Liberation Handbook and
Dumbing Us Down. I got the books and read them myself and now I'm
even more against her going to school. I really do want it to be her
decision to be home, but I can't get over the fact that there are
negative things that will happen to her and the special person she is
and the great mind she has if she goes to school. Things that she
won't even realize are happening. I know there are ways for me to
help negate these forces, but she'll be under their control for 6
continuous hours a day.
I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little young
for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
of school make this huge decision ? Or should I as the most trusted
person in her life, guide her away from it in everyway possible, in
the same way I guided her away from physical dangers when she was too
young to understand my words? How do I do this without damaging our
relationship?
So Stephanie, I don't think you're crazy and I too need some advice.
For some reason, I guess it's easier for some than others. :)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:26 AM, lynne4t wrote:
the information of what you think about school into her head? That's
what they do in school: they decide what they want kids to know and
they tell them rather than let them experience and figure it out for
themselves.
My then 7 yo tried out 2nd grade. She lasted 2 months. She can
confidently state what she doesn't like about school from her own
experience. She *owns* that information because it was acquired by
living it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little youngWould you rather teach her that school is bad? Would you rather put
> for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
> show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
> of school make this huge decision ?
the information of what you think about school into her head? That's
what they do in school: they decide what they want kids to know and
they tell them rather than let them experience and figure it out for
themselves.
My then 7 yo tried out 2nd grade. She lasted 2 months. She can
confidently state what she doesn't like about school from her own
experience. She *owns* that information because it was acquired by
living it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know there are ways for me to
help negate these forces, but she'll be under their control for 6
continuous hours a day.-=-
That's quite a harsh and defeatist way to look at it. For one thing,
if it got really bad she could go to the office between classes and
call you to come get her.
Schools WISH the kids were "under their control."
Is she under YOUR control at home?
If she has a mind of her own and is making a choice, she's
controlling the situation.
If she's not allowed to make a choice, you're controlling her.
People can be persuasive without being controlling, unless the person
they're persuading really has no preferences whatsoever, and if she
has no preferences, then any situation is as good as another (until
she develops preferences).
-=-I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little young
for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
of school make this huge decision ?-=-
How huge a decision is it? She can come home after a few days if she
doesn't like it, right? Or a few weeks or months? It's not boarding
school on another continent.
-=-Or should I as the most trusted
person in her life, guide her away from it in everyway possible, in
the same way I guided her away from physical dangers when she was too
young to understand my words? How do I do this without damaging our
relationship?-=-
If you want to continue to be trusted, you can't equate school with
an oncoming train.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
help negate these forces, but she'll be under their control for 6
continuous hours a day.-=-
That's quite a harsh and defeatist way to look at it. For one thing,
if it got really bad she could go to the office between classes and
call you to come get her.
Schools WISH the kids were "under their control."
Is she under YOUR control at home?
If she has a mind of her own and is making a choice, she's
controlling the situation.
If she's not allowed to make a choice, you're controlling her.
People can be persuasive without being controlling, unless the person
they're persuading really has no preferences whatsoever, and if she
has no preferences, then any situation is as good as another (until
she develops preferences).
-=-I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little young
for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
of school make this huge decision ?-=-
How huge a decision is it? She can come home after a few days if she
doesn't like it, right? Or a few weeks or months? It's not boarding
school on another continent.
-=-Or should I as the most trusted
person in her life, guide her away from it in everyway possible, in
the same way I guided her away from physical dangers when she was too
young to understand my words? How do I do this without damaging our
relationship?-=-
If you want to continue to be trusted, you can't equate school with
an oncoming train.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JENNIFER J TATE
I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you have to let them know that you trust them to make the best decision. You can certainly give your opinion too. Then you hope they don't like it. If they do like it and you see that they are really being harmed you can decide to keep them home.
jennifer
lynne4t <lmforti@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "brownstefani"
<stefanibrown@...> wrote:
crazy. I'm going through the exact same thing with my 12 yr-old dd.
She's never been to school and wants to try it because she thinks it's
going to be fun. It was recommended to me that I have her read or at
least browse a couple of books, The Teenage Liberation Handbook and
Dumbing Us Down. I got the books and read them myself and now I'm
even more against her going to school. I really do want it to be her
decision to be home, but I can't get over the fact that there are
negative things that will happen to her and the special person she is
and the great mind she has if she goes to school. Things that she
won't even realize are happening. I know there are ways for me to
help negate these forces, but she'll be under their control for 6
continuous hours a day.
I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little young
for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
of school make this huge decision ? Or should I as the most trusted
person in her life, guide her away from it in everyway possible, in
the same way I guided her away from physical dangers when she was too
young to understand my words? How do I do this without damaging our
relationship?
So Stephanie, I don't think you're crazy and I too need some advice.
For some reason, I guess it's easier for some than others. :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jennifer
lynne4t <lmforti@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "brownstefani"
<stefanibrown@...> wrote:
>I understand completely where your coming from and I don't think it's
> Am I crazy to want to find ANY other option? Of course I realize
> that if this is what she really wants then that's what we'll have to
> sort out (and I told her so) but what I guess I really want is an
> unschooling perspective on where to go from here.
>
crazy. I'm going through the exact same thing with my 12 yr-old dd.
She's never been to school and wants to try it because she thinks it's
going to be fun. It was recommended to me that I have her read or at
least browse a couple of books, The Teenage Liberation Handbook and
Dumbing Us Down. I got the books and read them myself and now I'm
even more against her going to school. I really do want it to be her
decision to be home, but I can't get over the fact that there are
negative things that will happen to her and the special person she is
and the great mind she has if she goes to school. Things that she
won't even realize are happening. I know there are ways for me to
help negate these forces, but she'll be under their control for 6
continuous hours a day.
I still wonder, should a 12-yr-old, (who is actually a little young
for 12) with all her innocence and enthusiastic expectations for a TV
show school experience, and who doesn't quite understand the reality
of school make this huge decision ? Or should I as the most trusted
person in her life, guide her away from it in everyway possible, in
the same way I guided her away from physical dangers when she was too
young to understand my words? How do I do this without damaging our
relationship?
So Stephanie, I don't think you're crazy and I too need some advice.
For some reason, I guess it's easier for some than others. :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you
have to let them know that you trust them to make the best decision.
You can certainly give your opinion too. Then you hope they don't
like it. If they do like it and you see that they are really being
harmed you can decide to keep them home. -=-
That last statement seems contradictory to the second one.
-=- I think you have to let them know that you trust them to make the
best decision.-=-
Maybe so. Probably. But is it a decision between really rich and
vibrant unschooling in an ideal home, or is it that school is more
interesting that whatever's going on at home?
Some kids are driven to want school because there are things
happening there, there are people, there's laughter.
-=-You can certainly give your opinion too.-=-
How could a chile make an informed decision without information? If
the parent's "opinion" is propaganda and manipulation, the child
still won't be making a well informed decision, though.
-=-Then you hope they don't like it.-=-
If they DO like it, because it's better than home, it would be more
generous and loving for the parent to be glad the child likes it.
To hope a child is unhappy seems cruel to me. It seems antagonistic
and not partnerly.
Discovering the child's concerns and answering those (can unschooled
teens get into college? can I make friends without going to school?)
seems like the best course. Any parent who doesn't already know
those answers and isn't moving in a direction that will give kids
exposure and options could be doing better at unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have to let them know that you trust them to make the best decision.
You can certainly give your opinion too. Then you hope they don't
like it. If they do like it and you see that they are really being
harmed you can decide to keep them home. -=-
That last statement seems contradictory to the second one.
-=- I think you have to let them know that you trust them to make the
best decision.-=-
Maybe so. Probably. But is it a decision between really rich and
vibrant unschooling in an ideal home, or is it that school is more
interesting that whatever's going on at home?
Some kids are driven to want school because there are things
happening there, there are people, there's laughter.
-=-You can certainly give your opinion too.-=-
How could a chile make an informed decision without information? If
the parent's "opinion" is propaganda and manipulation, the child
still won't be making a well informed decision, though.
-=-Then you hope they don't like it.-=-
If they DO like it, because it's better than home, it would be more
generous and loving for the parent to be glad the child likes it.
To hope a child is unhappy seems cruel to me. It seems antagonistic
and not partnerly.
Discovering the child's concerns and answering those (can unschooled
teens get into college? can I make friends without going to school?)
seems like the best course. Any parent who doesn't already know
those answers and isn't moving in a direction that will give kids
exposure and options could be doing better at unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: jtate519@...
I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you have
to let
them know that you trust them to make the best decision. You can
certainly give
your opinion too. Then you hope they don't like it.
-=-=-=-
I would make home something extra special. Make it some place NO ONE
would want to leave! Why is school so interesting? Is your home not
that interesting? Why not? What can you do to make home more alluring
than school? Do it! Make a schedule of events (anyone wondering what
*I* am up to??? <G>) ---make a schedule monthly of cool places to go,
fun things to do---an Unschooling Syllabus! Make home seem like a
better place to be.
And let her go. You DO have to trust her to make the best decision
*for her*!
And I'd give my opinion. But my kids are used to that! <bwg>
What's that bumper sticker? A bad day fishin' is better than a good
day at school! <G>
-=-=-=-=-=-
If they do like it and you
see that they are really being harmed you can decide to keep them
home.
-=-=-=-
Here's where you get me. With that statement, you're saying, "I don't
trust you enough. And I have the POWER!" Drop it. If it IS harmful,
she'll know it.
I bet she won't last long.
She knows how you feel. Trust her.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: jtate519@...
I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you have
to let
them know that you trust them to make the best decision. You can
certainly give
your opinion too. Then you hope they don't like it.
-=-=-=-
I would make home something extra special. Make it some place NO ONE
would want to leave! Why is school so interesting? Is your home not
that interesting? Why not? What can you do to make home more alluring
than school? Do it! Make a schedule of events (anyone wondering what
*I* am up to??? <G>) ---make a schedule monthly of cool places to go,
fun things to do---an Unschooling Syllabus! Make home seem like a
better place to be.
And let her go. You DO have to trust her to make the best decision
*for her*!
And I'd give my opinion. But my kids are used to that! <bwg>
What's that bumper sticker? A bad day fishin' is better than a good
day at school! <G>
-=-=-=-=-=-
If they do like it and you
see that they are really being harmed you can decide to keep them
home.
-=-=-=-
Here's where you get me. With that statement, you're saying, "I don't
trust you enough. And I have the POWER!" Drop it. If it IS harmful,
she'll know it.
I bet she won't last long.
She knows how you feel. Trust her.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
lunalobo
Hello everyone,
Our son went to public school when he was 5. It was his decision and
though he was scared, I supported him. It lasted 5 months. He hated
it. I had spent many days inside the class room when he decided to
leave as I really thought he'd like it. Long story short, he didn't
just not like it, he HATED public school and was bored out of his
mind. Because I was very involved and spend a lot of time in the
classroom. By the way, I HIGHLY recommend every parent should check
out what goes on behind those doors whose children attend PS. I was
the only parent there (no surprise to me) and could clearly see why
our son was son unhappy.
We refer to PS "free daycare" as that was our experience. Life at
home was much more exciting and our son has been home and unschooled
ever since.
It was interesting and a learning experience and really enlightened
us to what goes on in that particular school's classrooms, but made
us even more happy unschooling and trusting in our child's process.
Not all schools are alike. I loved school up until the 6th grade and
then we moved. That was the end of my PS "career". I unschooled until
17 and got my G.E.D. with no problem. Funny, I just found a copy of
it all these years later the other day while filing personal papers.
I've never EVER needed it once. Not once in all these years (I'm 42)
have I ever been asked to present either my G.E.D. or proof of my
degree in Art when applying for employment. I could have put down
anything probably and gotten away with it. I wouldn't, but it's fun
to think about.
Good luck to you in whatever your daughter and your family decides!
August
Our son went to public school when he was 5. It was his decision and
though he was scared, I supported him. It lasted 5 months. He hated
it. I had spent many days inside the class room when he decided to
leave as I really thought he'd like it. Long story short, he didn't
just not like it, he HATED public school and was bored out of his
mind. Because I was very involved and spend a lot of time in the
classroom. By the way, I HIGHLY recommend every parent should check
out what goes on behind those doors whose children attend PS. I was
the only parent there (no surprise to me) and could clearly see why
our son was son unhappy.
We refer to PS "free daycare" as that was our experience. Life at
home was much more exciting and our son has been home and unschooled
ever since.
It was interesting and a learning experience and really enlightened
us to what goes on in that particular school's classrooms, but made
us even more happy unschooling and trusting in our child's process.
Not all schools are alike. I loved school up until the 6th grade and
then we moved. That was the end of my PS "career". I unschooled until
17 and got my G.E.D. with no problem. Funny, I just found a copy of
it all these years later the other day while filing personal papers.
I've never EVER needed it once. Not once in all these years (I'm 42)
have I ever been asked to present either my G.E.D. or proof of my
degree in Art when applying for employment. I could have put down
anything probably and gotten away with it. I wouldn't, but it's fun
to think about.
Good luck to you in whatever your daughter and your family decides!
August
On Jul 27, 2006, at 3:03 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you
> have to let them know that you trust them to make the best decision.
> You can certainly give your opinion too. Then you hope they don't
> like it. If they do like it and you see that they are really being
> harmed you can decide to keep them home. -=-
>
> That last statement seems contradictory to the second one.
>
> -=- I think you have to let them know that you trust them to make the
> best decision.-=-
>
> Maybe so. Probably. But is it a decision between really rich and
> vibrant unschooling in an ideal home, or is it that school is more
> interesting that whatever's going on at home?
Lil Lawrence
Dear Stefani,
A dear friend of mine shared her experience in this situation: Her story
gave our family an opportunity to explore this important issue and helped to
firm my resolve, in the event I am in a similar situation. She told me that
it was no different that if her daughter wanted to experiment with drugs (or
other potentially harmful activities). She explored, with her daughter, what
the attraction was; she also expressed her feelings of responsibility, as a
parent (and therefore authority) to support choices that 'mom' felt
comfortable with supporting. It turned out that the daughter was longing for
the recognition of the milestone: the gown, the limo, the party and all the
associated fun and glamour. When 'mom' stated that all those things could
still happen and that 'mom' (as authority) would not support attending
highschool the greatest pressure was off. I don't know if there was much
residual stuff, but perhaps we might hear from 'mom' soon...
I also know that the daughter has been quite employed (at least as much as
she wanted to be employed) since that time.
Regards,
Lil
Desperately seeking opinions on the subject of attending high school!
A dear friend of mine shared her experience in this situation: Her story
gave our family an opportunity to explore this important issue and helped to
firm my resolve, in the event I am in a similar situation. She told me that
it was no different that if her daughter wanted to experiment with drugs (or
other potentially harmful activities). She explored, with her daughter, what
the attraction was; she also expressed her feelings of responsibility, as a
parent (and therefore authority) to support choices that 'mom' felt
comfortable with supporting. It turned out that the daughter was longing for
the recognition of the milestone: the gown, the limo, the party and all the
associated fun and glamour. When 'mom' stated that all those things could
still happen and that 'mom' (as authority) would not support attending
highschool the greatest pressure was off. I don't know if there was much
residual stuff, but perhaps we might hear from 'mom' soon...
I also know that the daughter has been quite employed (at least as much as
she wanted to be employed) since that time.
Regards,
Lil
Desperately seeking opinions on the subject of attending high school!
Sandra Dodd
-=-She told me that
it was no different that if her daughter wanted to experiment with
drugs (or
other potentially harmful activities).-=-
Going to school isn't on par with using drugs.
To tell a child so isn't honest.
-=-When 'mom' stated that all those things could
still happen and that 'mom' (as authority) would not support attending
highschool the greatest pressure was off. -=-
Moms as authorities can say no to all KINDS of things. That's the
rule. Moms can say no.
But what if you are trying to live by principles and not by rules?
Authority changes then.
If the principle involves safety, the daughter and mom together can
work to overcome and satisfy the MOM's safety concerns.
Any list list can tell the mom to do what she wants to because she's
the authority, but how can we help the mom see from the child's point
of view and maintain a whole different kind of relationship with her
daughter?
-=-I don't know if there was much
residual stuff, but perhaps we might hear from 'mom' soon...-=-
Mom might never know. It might be something the daughter keeps to
herself (among other things, if her relationship with her mom is one
of "the authority" and the powerless child).
It might not seem important, but it can make all the difference in
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it was no different that if her daughter wanted to experiment with
drugs (or
other potentially harmful activities).-=-
Going to school isn't on par with using drugs.
To tell a child so isn't honest.
-=-When 'mom' stated that all those things could
still happen and that 'mom' (as authority) would not support attending
highschool the greatest pressure was off. -=-
Moms as authorities can say no to all KINDS of things. That's the
rule. Moms can say no.
But what if you are trying to live by principles and not by rules?
Authority changes then.
If the principle involves safety, the daughter and mom together can
work to overcome and satisfy the MOM's safety concerns.
Any list list can tell the mom to do what she wants to because she's
the authority, but how can we help the mom see from the child's point
of view and maintain a whole different kind of relationship with her
daughter?
-=-I don't know if there was much
residual stuff, but perhaps we might hear from 'mom' soon...-=-
Mom might never know. It might be something the daughter keeps to
herself (among other things, if her relationship with her mom is one
of "the authority" and the powerless child).
It might not seem important, but it can make all the difference in
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JENNIFER J TATE
All I meant is that you trust the child to make the decision,but you know that you are ultimately in control of the situation and can take the child out of the situation. Children do not always make the best choices. You trust them to make the decision, but they may make a mistake and put themself in a bad situation. I don't agree that school is the same as drugs, but if they did make a choice that was dangerous-you can remove them from that situation.
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote: -=-I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you
have to let them know that you trust them to make the best decision.
You can certainly give your opinion too. Then you hope they don't
like it. If they do like it and you see that they are really being
harmed you can decide to keep them home. -=-
That last statement seems contradictory to the second one.
-=- I think you have to let them know that you trust them to make the
best decision.-=-
Maybe so. Probably. But is it a decision between really rich and
vibrant unschooling in an ideal home, or is it that school is more
interesting that whatever's going on at home?
Some kids are driven to want school because there are things
happening there, there are people, there's laughter.
-=-You can certainly give your opinion too.-=-
How could a chile make an informed decision without information? If
the parent's "opinion" is propaganda and manipulation, the child
still won't be making a well informed decision, though.
-=-Then you hope they don't like it.-=-
If they DO like it, because it's better than home, it would be more
generous and loving for the parent to be glad the child likes it.
To hope a child is unhappy seems cruel to me. It seems antagonistic
and not partnerly.
Discovering the child's concerns and answering those (can unschooled
teens get into college? can I make friends without going to school?)
seems like the best course. Any parent who doesn't already know
those answers and isn't moving in a direction that will give kids
exposure and options could be doing better at unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote: -=-I say you let them go to school if they want to go. I think you
have to let them know that you trust them to make the best decision.
You can certainly give your opinion too. Then you hope they don't
like it. If they do like it and you see that they are really being
harmed you can decide to keep them home. -=-
That last statement seems contradictory to the second one.
-=- I think you have to let them know that you trust them to make the
best decision.-=-
Maybe so. Probably. But is it a decision between really rich and
vibrant unschooling in an ideal home, or is it that school is more
interesting that whatever's going on at home?
Some kids are driven to want school because there are things
happening there, there are people, there's laughter.
-=-You can certainly give your opinion too.-=-
How could a chile make an informed decision without information? If
the parent's "opinion" is propaganda and manipulation, the child
still won't be making a well informed decision, though.
-=-Then you hope they don't like it.-=-
If they DO like it, because it's better than home, it would be more
generous and loving for the parent to be glad the child likes it.
To hope a child is unhappy seems cruel to me. It seems antagonistic
and not partnerly.
Discovering the child's concerns and answering those (can unschooled
teens get into college? can I make friends without going to school?)
seems like the best course. Any parent who doesn't already know
those answers and isn't moving in a direction that will give kids
exposure and options could be doing better at unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
I didn't see the original question but here is my 2 cents...
My girls had never been to school, and both were curious. Last sept
they went, because as a single mom it was one way of handling child
care, etc. It was HELL for Lexie, she stuck with it because we couldn't
figure out child care. It was OK for Janene. Lexie was 5th grade,
Janene 2nd. We found a way out, back to unschooling, after 2 1/2
months, and Lexie, as we were walking out of the school, announced,
rather loudly and with spirit " I will not ever go back into formal
learning until I begin college." A few minutes later she asked how old
she would have to be to take a political science class at a junior
college. She was not turned off of education but public school holds no
more interest.
Maybe that is what your child will do... experience it and decide it's
not for them.
Joylyn
Lil Lawrence wrote:
My girls had never been to school, and both were curious. Last sept
they went, because as a single mom it was one way of handling child
care, etc. It was HELL for Lexie, she stuck with it because we couldn't
figure out child care. It was OK for Janene. Lexie was 5th grade,
Janene 2nd. We found a way out, back to unschooling, after 2 1/2
months, and Lexie, as we were walking out of the school, announced,
rather loudly and with spirit " I will not ever go back into formal
learning until I begin college." A few minutes later she asked how old
she would have to be to take a political science class at a junior
college. She was not turned off of education but public school holds no
more interest.
Maybe that is what your child will do... experience it and decide it's
not for them.
Joylyn
Lil Lawrence wrote:
> Dear Stefani,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> A dear friend of mine shared her experience in this situation: Her story
> gave our family an opportunity to explore this important issue and
> helped to
> firm my resolve, in the event I am in a similar situation. She told me
> that
> it was no different that if her daughter wanted to experiment with
> drugs (or
> other potentially harmful activities). She explored, with her
> daughter, what
> the attraction was; she also expressed her feelings of responsibility,
> as a
> parent (and therefore authority) to support choices that 'mom' felt
> comfortable with supporting. It turned out that the daughter was
> longing for
> the recognition of the milestone: the gown, the limo, the party and
> all the
> associated fun and glamour. When 'mom' stated that all those things could
> still happen and that 'mom' (as authority) would not support attending
> highschool the greatest pressure was off. I don't know if there was much
> residual stuff, but perhaps we might hear from 'mom' soon...
>
> I also know that the daughter has been quite employed (at least as
> much as
> she wanted to be employed) since that time.
>
> Regards,
> Lil
>
> Desperately seeking opinions on the subject of attending high school!
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/401 - Release Date: 7/26/2006
>
>
lynne4t
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
wrote:
that she should know our beliefs about school. Isn't that part of the
information she needs to decide? School certainly isn't going to tell
her what they're up to. ;) I should add that she still hasn't
decided, but is leaning towards going.
When I had previously posted that my dd was weighing the pros and cons
of going to school on Unschooling Basics Pam wrote:
"She needs more information about the negatives of school. Could you
have her read a bit about school - such as an essay or two from,
"Dumbing Us Down?" Or the first few chapters of, "The Teenage
Liberation Handbook?"
Those books teach us that school is bad. All I'm trying to do is to
counter the positive, false images she gets from all of her favorite
TV shows that show school as a fun, social place.
Also, there's a difference between "putting information into her head"
and giving her valuable information. I know what that difference is.
Conveying the information in a way that it would be meaningful to her
is where I'm stuck. I'm trying hard to not sound anti school when I
talk with her, but she's aware we'd like for her to stay home.
I had to laugh at the "oncoming train" quote from Sandra. Silly, but I
admit I DO feel like it's an oncoming train. She is just so precious
to us and I worry that we didn't do enough to prepare her to resist
the pressures she'll face.
So, if she does go to school because she has decided to, are we still
considered unschoolers?
BTW, dh and I have been really busy trying to make her life fun and
exciting, but she does like ALOT of activity and stimulation.
wrote:
>Well, yes. It IS bad. Isn't that why we unschool? And I do think
>
> Would you rather teach her that school is bad? Would you rather put
> the information of what you think about school into her head?
that she should know our beliefs about school. Isn't that part of the
information she needs to decide? School certainly isn't going to tell
her what they're up to. ;) I should add that she still hasn't
decided, but is leaning towards going.
When I had previously posted that my dd was weighing the pros and cons
of going to school on Unschooling Basics Pam wrote:
"She needs more information about the negatives of school. Could you
have her read a bit about school - such as an essay or two from,
"Dumbing Us Down?" Or the first few chapters of, "The Teenage
Liberation Handbook?"
Those books teach us that school is bad. All I'm trying to do is to
counter the positive, false images she gets from all of her favorite
TV shows that show school as a fun, social place.
Also, there's a difference between "putting information into her head"
and giving her valuable information. I know what that difference is.
Conveying the information in a way that it would be meaningful to her
is where I'm stuck. I'm trying hard to not sound anti school when I
talk with her, but she's aware we'd like for her to stay home.
I had to laugh at the "oncoming train" quote from Sandra. Silly, but I
admit I DO feel like it's an oncoming train. She is just so precious
to us and I worry that we didn't do enough to prepare her to resist
the pressures she'll face.
So, if she does go to school because she has decided to, are we still
considered unschoolers?
BTW, dh and I have been really busy trying to make her life fun and
exciting, but she does like ALOT of activity and stimulation.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Those books teach us that school is bad.-=-
Please, please, try to disentangle the language you use on this list
from school-speak.
Those books don't teach us anything. Those books present information
and we need to read it and think. We might learn things we didn't
know, and we might add to things we knew something about, and we
might see some things in those books and think "That doesn't seem
quite true to me," or "That's not my experience."
-=-Would you rather teach her that school is bad? -=-
In answer to that question you wrote "Well, yes."
Those who really intend to teach and defend teaching and feel that
they are being taught about unschooling by books are looking the
wrong direction to see unschooling clearly. Turn and look away from
the teaching, teaching, teaching at the quiet, limitless world
outside of teacherville.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
There are some other ways to look at school, and choice, and choice
is very, very important. What the school is "up to" will not have
the same effect on someone who is there by choice as it does on those
whose parents are in collusion with the administration to keep their
children in there despite the children's preferences, wishes or needs.
-=-All I'm trying to do is to
counter the positive, false images she gets from all of her favorite
TV shows that show school as a fun, social place. -=-
Unschooling can be a fun, social place.
If it's not, school is probably a good idea.
-=-Also, there's a difference between "putting information into her
head"
and giving her valuable information. I know what that difference is.-=-
I don't know what the difference is. She needs to bring valuable
information in herself, not have it given to her or put into her.
-=-I'm trying hard to not sound anti school when I
talk with her, but she's aware we'd like for her to stay home. -=-
Liking for her to stay home is one thing. Is it always home? Do
you get out and do wonderful things on days when other kids are in
school? Have you taken her out of town to see things people her age
don't usually get to see? Is every day something to remember?
http://sandradodd.com/nest
but more importantly, please read
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
-=-She is just so precious
to us and I worry that we didn't do enough to prepare her to resist
the pressures she'll face.-=-
You don't know for sure what kinds of pressures she will face. You
don't know for sure how long she'll be there. If the relationship
with you is good and open, she will probably talk to you about what
happens there, whereas most of the other kids at school learned years
ago not to take it home, not to tell any adults, just cope or stuff
it down.
-=-So, if she does go to school because she has decided to, are we still
considered unschoolers?-=-
Some might, some won't. What does it matter? You don't get an
unschooler discount at Burger King or anything.
-=-BTW, dh and I have been really busy trying to make her life fun and
exciting, but she does like ALOT of activity and stimulation.-=-
She is entitled to a lot of activity and stimulation. Maybe you
could aim it more toward making all your shared lives more fun and
exciting, instead of aiming it at her. Some families seem to look
for kid things to do instead of family things to do, and that can be
a problem.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please, please, try to disentangle the language you use on this list
from school-speak.
Those books don't teach us anything. Those books present information
and we need to read it and think. We might learn things we didn't
know, and we might add to things we knew something about, and we
might see some things in those books and think "That doesn't seem
quite true to me," or "That's not my experience."
-=-Would you rather teach her that school is bad? -=-
In answer to that question you wrote "Well, yes."
Those who really intend to teach and defend teaching and feel that
they are being taught about unschooling by books are looking the
wrong direction to see unschooling clearly. Turn and look away from
the teaching, teaching, teaching at the quiet, limitless world
outside of teacherville.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
There are some other ways to look at school, and choice, and choice
is very, very important. What the school is "up to" will not have
the same effect on someone who is there by choice as it does on those
whose parents are in collusion with the administration to keep their
children in there despite the children's preferences, wishes or needs.
-=-All I'm trying to do is to
counter the positive, false images she gets from all of her favorite
TV shows that show school as a fun, social place. -=-
Unschooling can be a fun, social place.
If it's not, school is probably a good idea.
-=-Also, there's a difference between "putting information into her
head"
and giving her valuable information. I know what that difference is.-=-
I don't know what the difference is. She needs to bring valuable
information in herself, not have it given to her or put into her.
-=-I'm trying hard to not sound anti school when I
talk with her, but she's aware we'd like for her to stay home. -=-
Liking for her to stay home is one thing. Is it always home? Do
you get out and do wonderful things on days when other kids are in
school? Have you taken her out of town to see things people her age
don't usually get to see? Is every day something to remember?
http://sandradodd.com/nest
but more importantly, please read
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
-=-She is just so precious
to us and I worry that we didn't do enough to prepare her to resist
the pressures she'll face.-=-
You don't know for sure what kinds of pressures she will face. You
don't know for sure how long she'll be there. If the relationship
with you is good and open, she will probably talk to you about what
happens there, whereas most of the other kids at school learned years
ago not to take it home, not to tell any adults, just cope or stuff
it down.
-=-So, if she does go to school because she has decided to, are we still
considered unschoolers?-=-
Some might, some won't. What does it matter? You don't get an
unschooler discount at Burger King or anything.
-=-BTW, dh and I have been really busy trying to make her life fun and
exciting, but she does like ALOT of activity and stimulation.-=-
She is entitled to a lot of activity and stimulation. Maybe you
could aim it more toward making all your shared lives more fun and
exciting, instead of aiming it at her. Some families seem to look
for kid things to do instead of family things to do, and that can be
a problem.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brownstefani
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> >
> Was she in school before?
> For how long?
>
> She's never been to school
>Stefani
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
brownstefani
--- In [email protected], Diane Bentzen
<dwesner123@...> wrote:
would give her something to do besides just going out with friends
and being at home.
Stefani
<dwesner123@...> wrote:
>be able to get a job if she doesn't have a diploma and that this
>
> > -=-
>
> Is it primarily because she wants to be employable, or
> does she have other major reasons for wanting to go?
>
> :-) Diane
>
>Her two main reasons given were that she thinks that she will never
would give her something to do besides just going out with friends
and being at home.
Stefani
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-All I meant is that you trust the child to make the decision,but
you know that you are ultimately in control of the situation and can
take the child out of the situation.-=-
I don't think trust means what you think it means.
-=-Children do not always make the best choices. You trust them to
make the decision, but they may make a mistake and put themself in a
bad situation. -=-
I think you mean to say that you give the a chance to make the
decision you want them to make, and if they make the wrong one, you
veto it.
I'm guessing you haven't been unschooling long or maybe aren't
unschooling yet. Instead of giving mainstream advice or telling us
what a friend did, please look at the situation from the point of
view of unschooling. If you're not to the point of doing that yet,
that's okay. But mainstream advice is available in magazines and
books and waiting rooms and from taxi drivers and grandmas at
Walmart. Unschooling advice is rarer and more valuable, and let's
let this list be for that purpose.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you know that you are ultimately in control of the situation and can
take the child out of the situation.-=-
I don't think trust means what you think it means.
-=-Children do not always make the best choices. You trust them to
make the decision, but they may make a mistake and put themself in a
bad situation. -=-
I think you mean to say that you give the a chance to make the
decision you want them to make, and if they make the wrong one, you
veto it.
I'm guessing you haven't been unschooling long or maybe aren't
unschooling yet. Instead of giving mainstream advice or telling us
what a friend did, please look at the situation from the point of
view of unschooling. If you're not to the point of doing that yet,
that's okay. But mainstream advice is available in magazines and
books and waiting rooms and from taxi drivers and grandmas at
Walmart. Unschooling advice is rarer and more valuable, and let's
let this list be for that purpose.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: stefanibrown@...
-=-=-=-
I can assure her that she can get a job without a diploma. I'm sure
there are others who can too. Why does she have that idea? Do you know
no one who has a job but no diploma? Have you introduce her to him/her?
-=-=-=-
and that this would give her something to do besides just going out
with friends and being at home.
-=-=-=--
Now, *this* bothers me. Is that what your unschooling consists of?
Going out with friends and being at home?
Maybe school *does* seem like a better option!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: stefanibrown@...
>Her two main reasons given were that she thinks that she will neverbe able to get a job if she doesn't have a diploma
-=-=-=-
I can assure her that she can get a job without a diploma. I'm sure
there are others who can too. Why does she have that idea? Do you know
no one who has a job but no diploma? Have you introduce her to him/her?
-=-=-=-
and that this would give her something to do besides just going out
with friends and being at home.
-=-=-=--
Now, *this* bothers me. Is that what your unschooling consists of?
Going out with friends and being at home?
Maybe school *does* seem like a better option!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
brownstefani
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
a group of parents (schooling mind you) if they thought one could
get a job without a diploma, they all unequivocably agreed that,
that may have been true at one time but definitely is no longer the
case.
whole family as well as unschooling stuff when my husband is at
work. But more and more my daughter isn't interested in the
activities that my two sons and I are participating in and since she
is old enough to stay home alone she tends to make that choice alot
more often. I occasionally oblige her to attend an outing, but if
she's only going to complain and constantly wonder when we will
leave I feel that she should make the choice after I let her know
what our plans are.
Another problem that we have is the lack of homeschoolers her age.
And I mean complete lack! If there were other kids her age then she
would probably get engaged in age appropriate unschooling activities
but as of now all her friends are schoolers
Maybe I just need more advice
___
>sure
> -----Original Message-----
> >
> I can assure her that she can get a job without a diploma. I'm
> there are others who can too. Why does she have that idea? Do youknow
> no one who has a job but no diploma? Have you introduce her tohim/her?
>wouldn't get us very far. And just for the sake of interest I asked
> -=-=-=-
> I agree with you on that one but my trying to convince her of that
a group of parents (schooling mind you) if they thought one could
get a job without a diploma, they all unequivocably agreed that,
that may have been true at one time but definitely is no longer the
case.
> >of?
> -=-=-=--
>
> Now, *this* bothers me. Is that what your unschooling consists
> Going out with friends and being at home?that she does, and certainly we are involved in activities with the
>
> Maybe school *does* seem like a better option!
>I'm not sure what to say to that because obviously that is not all
whole family as well as unschooling stuff when my husband is at
work. But more and more my daughter isn't interested in the
activities that my two sons and I are participating in and since she
is old enough to stay home alone she tends to make that choice alot
more often. I occasionally oblige her to attend an outing, but if
she's only going to complain and constantly wonder when we will
leave I feel that she should make the choice after I let her know
what our plans are.
Another problem that we have is the lack of homeschoolers her age.
And I mean complete lack! If there were other kids her age then she
would probably get engaged in age appropriate unschooling activities
but as of now all her friends are schoolers
Maybe I just need more advice
> ~Kelly_____________________________________________________________________
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>
> "It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
>
___
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,email
> and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Why does she have that idea? Do you know
no one who has a job but no diploma? -=-
Excellent question.
Does she KNOW you know people with jobs and no diplomas?
And what about people with diplomas (or college degrees) and no jobs?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
no one who has a job but no diploma? -=-
Excellent question.
Does she KNOW you know people with jobs and no diplomas?
And what about people with diplomas (or college degrees) and no jobs?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And just for the sake of interest I asked
a group of parents (schooling mind you) if they thought one could
get a job without a diploma, they all unequivocably agreed that,
that may have been true at one time but definitely is no longer the
case. -=-
But they are wrong.
Did you believe them?
If you believed them and passed that on to your daughter, no wonder
she thinks it's true.
This list is full of people who have teens NOW who have jobs, and
young adult offspring NOW who have taken or are taking college
classes, and have jobs, without diplomas and mostly without GEDs.
Maybe you're comparing or equating high school drop outs (or cast
outs, or poor unfortunate flunk-outs) with unschoolers.
If you want information that supports school, ask a group of parents
whose kids are in school.
If you want unschooling information, go to unschoolers.
http://sandradodd.com/teens
That's the tip of the iceberg of teen stories.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a group of parents (schooling mind you) if they thought one could
get a job without a diploma, they all unequivocably agreed that,
that may have been true at one time but definitely is no longer the
case. -=-
But they are wrong.
Did you believe them?
If you believed them and passed that on to your daughter, no wonder
she thinks it's true.
This list is full of people who have teens NOW who have jobs, and
young adult offspring NOW who have taken or are taking college
classes, and have jobs, without diplomas and mostly without GEDs.
Maybe you're comparing or equating high school drop outs (or cast
outs, or poor unfortunate flunk-outs) with unschoolers.
If you want information that supports school, ask a group of parents
whose kids are in school.
If you want unschooling information, go to unschoolers.
http://sandradodd.com/teens
That's the tip of the iceberg of teen stories.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
Sandra Dodd wrote:
might disagree with. I'm a newly single mom, with younger children,
trying to continue a life style that isn't easily compatible with me
working full time out of the home. The divorce and Lexie's medical
situation has made it even more interesting. I've had to let go of
"what will others think?" and have simply done the best I could.
Sending my kids to school was certainly not my first choice, but we all
did it, and we came out of the experience with knowledge and skills we
otherwise would not have. And I'll tell you, Janene did not learn to
read in school, in fact, I can't think of one typically educational
thing my children and I learned from that experience, but it was
certainly a valuable experience all around. School did not destroy my
children, it did not destroy our life, it did not change how we think as
unschoolers. I would not undo that time period, it was a good
experience and only cemented our feelings about education and life and
unschooling. Do I want my children to go to school again? No, I really
don't, but it may be that Janene will go to school this year, in
September. I will do what I can to make the experience a good one for
her, we will continue to unschool through it all, and school will simply
be a place she hangs out while mom has to work. I am trying to get her
into an alternative charter school, but if I can't do that, she will go
to a traditional school. This is simply where we are right now in our
lives, in a few more years my children will be old enough for this not
to be an issue. But anyway, back to the original point, I just simply
have given up the idea to be the ideal anything, to be the ideal radical
unschooler, to be the ideal mommy, to be the ideal teacher. Instead,
I'm doing the best I can. I've given up caring what other people think.
I should say that Lexie had been talking of going to school for years.
Each time we discussed it, pros and cons, and she would put it off,
saying maybe she would go the next year. I always let her make the
decisions. As a public school teacher, she knew I had real insight to
the school situation, but I always talked about the positives as well as
the negatives. Janene also was very curious, but had also decided not
to go. When as a family we decided that we would try school as an
answer to that problem, they both had mixed feelings but were excited to
see what it was all about. Lexie left school gladly, it was very much a
negative experience for her. Janene was OK with it, and will be OK with
going back.
I do agree that children who know--well Sandra said choice, my kids
didn't really have a choice, but they knew I backed their every second.
They could tell me everything, and KNOW, in their hearts, that I would
do what I could for them. That gave them far more power than most kids,
over their situation. And as we went through the experience, they also
knew that I would take them out if they really wanted it. This power
was so important to them. Most kids don't know there is another
option. I teach those kids every day. They are so brainwashed into the
process they think has to happen--grades K-12, in the proper order,
taking classes in the proper order, with every step dictated, every test
mandatory, that they don't see, don't understand, that it's all a sham.
That there are other things they can do instead of following the "steps"
dictated by the school. My kids know they can choose different paths.
So for them, their time in school was different. It was easier. Lexie
would come home and laugh at the things adult staff had said or done,
because she saw the world in a different light. It was interesting for
her to understand this, and also to hear her talk about it. She gained
insight into the kids that weren't homeschooled and their thinking. It
was enlightening to her and she talked about how that experience helped
her to understand other children better.
Well, I'm rambling, but I guess my main idea is that school wasn't
necessarily bad for my kids, and they came out of it educated. Not in
the way the school would think, but not in a bad way either.
Joylyn
PS, i just asked Lexie if she learned anything in school, clarifying it
with the words "as in what the school wanted you to learn." She said
"as in the lessons?" I said yes and she thought for a long time... then
said "I learned how to spell awesome." After much more quiet thought,
she said "I learned about the local Native Americans, the ones who used
to live around here. We learned th is in two days. But I can't
remember what I learned about them now, although I did take the test and
I did pass it." She was quiet for a minute and then said "I learned
about exponents, that I remember, it was interesting and I was good at
it."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>In the last few years, I've made decisions that others who unschool
>
> -=-So, if she does go to school because she has decided to, are we still
> considered unschoolers?-=-
>
might disagree with. I'm a newly single mom, with younger children,
trying to continue a life style that isn't easily compatible with me
working full time out of the home. The divorce and Lexie's medical
situation has made it even more interesting. I've had to let go of
"what will others think?" and have simply done the best I could.
Sending my kids to school was certainly not my first choice, but we all
did it, and we came out of the experience with knowledge and skills we
otherwise would not have. And I'll tell you, Janene did not learn to
read in school, in fact, I can't think of one typically educational
thing my children and I learned from that experience, but it was
certainly a valuable experience all around. School did not destroy my
children, it did not destroy our life, it did not change how we think as
unschoolers. I would not undo that time period, it was a good
experience and only cemented our feelings about education and life and
unschooling. Do I want my children to go to school again? No, I really
don't, but it may be that Janene will go to school this year, in
September. I will do what I can to make the experience a good one for
her, we will continue to unschool through it all, and school will simply
be a place she hangs out while mom has to work. I am trying to get her
into an alternative charter school, but if I can't do that, she will go
to a traditional school. This is simply where we are right now in our
lives, in a few more years my children will be old enough for this not
to be an issue. But anyway, back to the original point, I just simply
have given up the idea to be the ideal anything, to be the ideal radical
unschooler, to be the ideal mommy, to be the ideal teacher. Instead,
I'm doing the best I can. I've given up caring what other people think.
I should say that Lexie had been talking of going to school for years.
Each time we discussed it, pros and cons, and she would put it off,
saying maybe she would go the next year. I always let her make the
decisions. As a public school teacher, she knew I had real insight to
the school situation, but I always talked about the positives as well as
the negatives. Janene also was very curious, but had also decided not
to go. When as a family we decided that we would try school as an
answer to that problem, they both had mixed feelings but were excited to
see what it was all about. Lexie left school gladly, it was very much a
negative experience for her. Janene was OK with it, and will be OK with
going back.
I do agree that children who know--well Sandra said choice, my kids
didn't really have a choice, but they knew I backed their every second.
They could tell me everything, and KNOW, in their hearts, that I would
do what I could for them. That gave them far more power than most kids,
over their situation. And as we went through the experience, they also
knew that I would take them out if they really wanted it. This power
was so important to them. Most kids don't know there is another
option. I teach those kids every day. They are so brainwashed into the
process they think has to happen--grades K-12, in the proper order,
taking classes in the proper order, with every step dictated, every test
mandatory, that they don't see, don't understand, that it's all a sham.
That there are other things they can do instead of following the "steps"
dictated by the school. My kids know they can choose different paths.
So for them, their time in school was different. It was easier. Lexie
would come home and laugh at the things adult staff had said or done,
because she saw the world in a different light. It was interesting for
her to understand this, and also to hear her talk about it. She gained
insight into the kids that weren't homeschooled and their thinking. It
was enlightening to her and she talked about how that experience helped
her to understand other children better.
Well, I'm rambling, but I guess my main idea is that school wasn't
necessarily bad for my kids, and they came out of it educated. Not in
the way the school would think, but not in a bad way either.
Joylyn
PS, i just asked Lexie if she learned anything in school, clarifying it
with the words "as in what the school wanted you to learn." She said
"as in the lessons?" I said yes and she thought for a long time... then
said "I learned how to spell awesome." After much more quiet thought,
she said "I learned about the local Native Americans, the ones who used
to live around here. We learned th is in two days. But I can't
remember what I learned about them now, although I did take the test and
I did pass it." She was quiet for a minute and then said "I learned
about exponents, that I remember, it was interesting and I was good at
it."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
Stefani, where do you live? Are there other unschoolers around you? At
the HSC Conference in a month, in Sacramento California, there are
always young adults who were homeschooled, many unschooled, who always
inspire me with their words and lives. Spending lots of time with teen
and young adult unschoolers gives me all the encouragement I need that
my children will never have any problems finding a job or going to
college or doing anything they wish in life.
Joylyn
> -----Original Message-----I know so many who have no diploma who have excellent jobs.
> From: stefanibrown@... <mailto:stefanibrown%40netzero.com>
>
> >Her two main reasons given were that she thinks that she will never
> be able to get a job if she doesn't have a diploma
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> I can assure her that she can get a job without a diploma. I'm sure
> there are others who can too. Why does she have that idea? Do you know
> no one who has a job but no diploma? Have you introduce her to him/her?
>
Stefani, where do you live? Are there other unschoolers around you? At
the HSC Conference in a month, in Sacramento California, there are
always young adults who were homeschooled, many unschooled, who always
inspire me with their words and lives. Spending lots of time with teen
and young adult unschoolers gives me all the encouragement I need that
my children will never have any problems finding a job or going to
college or doing anything they wish in life.
>Agreed.
> -=-=-=-
>
> and that this would give her something to do besides just going out
> with friends and being at home.
>
> -=-=-=--
>
> Now, *this* bothers me. Is that what your unschooling consists of?
> Going out with friends and being at home?
>
> Maybe school *does* seem like a better option!
>
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://liveandlearnconference.org <http://liveandlearnconference.org>
>
> "It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
> __________________________________________________________
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
> and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/401 - Release Date: 7/26/2006
>
>
Joylyn
brownstefani wrote:
agree it is. But if you asked a holistic healer, she or he would have a
different opinion.
Schooled parents HAVE to buy into the myth that diplomas will be the
answer to everything. What choice do they have? If they stop believing
that, then their children are wasting time in school.
Many years ago someone explained to me that parents who were spanked as
children have to go on spanking as parents themselves. IF they say that
spanking is wrong, then they are admitting that what their parents, whom
they love and trust, were wrong. Many people cannot admit that their
parents would make such a wrong choice, a choice that physically and
emotionally hurt them as children and as adults, and a choice that they
are making and that perpetuates that violence on their own children. So
they go on living the lie, hurting their own children...
School is like that. There is a myth that in order to be successful one
must go through the process--k-12, all the right classes, college prep,
standardized tests, scoring high, sports or other activities, etc. then
college... If this is all wrong, then the parents wasted their own time
in school, as their children are wasting theirs now...
Years ago I realized that many students were being taught math, the same
math, over and over. It was as though if we repeat a thing often enough
students who were not cognitively ready to get something would get it
anyway. Instead, we have a lot of students who have no understanding of
math failing at higher math. Those millions of problems they did as
children did not help them gain understanding. It was just busy work
and memorization. Years ago I took kids who had failed at math for
years and in two or three months taught them basic math--1st grade
through 9th grade math, without them doing hundreds of practice
problems. I learned that if a student was ready to learn something, it
could be learned quick, without all those practice problems. The next
step in my thinking was that if people just waited until a student was
ready to learn something and wanting to learn it, and had a reason to do
so, then maybe all that practice was unnecessary. So, this led me to
realize--all those problems I did, every day, hundreds a week, every
week, for every grade, for 12 years--that was unnecessary. A waste of
my time! It was hard to admit that.
So, I guess my point is that these parents, and their children, MUST buy
into the idea that school, graduation, college, graduation, etc. are the
ONLY way to success. For them to accept their are alternatives that
would be less difficult for their children would make all they have done
and all their children have done, and will do, a waste of time, is too
much for them to comprehend.
certainly we are involved in activities with the whole family as well as
unschooling stuff when my husband is atwork.
See, I think this bothers me...
We don't unschool from 9-5. We unschool all the time. 24 hours a day,
365 days a week. Unschooling is how we live, it is our life. That
doesn't mean I don't screw it up occasionally, I'm still human and
learning and growing, but we live unschooling, we dont' do it during
school hours.
Have you asked your daughter what things she wants to do? Helped her
find an interest and helped her follow up on it?
Joylyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> --- In [email protected]If you ask a surgeon if surgery is necessary, I bet she or he would
> <mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > I can assure her that she can get a job without a diploma. I'm
> sure
> > there are others who can too. Why does she have that idea? Do you
> know
> > no one who has a job but no diploma? Have you introduce her to
> him/her?
> >
> > -=-=-=-
> > I agree with you on that one but my trying to convince her of that
> wouldn't get us very far. And just for the sake of interest I asked
> a group of parents (schooling mind you) if they thought one could
> get a job without a diploma, they all unequivocably agreed that,
> that may have been true at one time but definitely is no longer the
> case.
>
agree it is. But if you asked a holistic healer, she or he would have a
different opinion.
Schooled parents HAVE to buy into the myth that diplomas will be the
answer to everything. What choice do they have? If they stop believing
that, then their children are wasting time in school.
Many years ago someone explained to me that parents who were spanked as
children have to go on spanking as parents themselves. IF they say that
spanking is wrong, then they are admitting that what their parents, whom
they love and trust, were wrong. Many people cannot admit that their
parents would make such a wrong choice, a choice that physically and
emotionally hurt them as children and as adults, and a choice that they
are making and that perpetuates that violence on their own children. So
they go on living the lie, hurting their own children...
School is like that. There is a myth that in order to be successful one
must go through the process--k-12, all the right classes, college prep,
standardized tests, scoring high, sports or other activities, etc. then
college... If this is all wrong, then the parents wasted their own time
in school, as their children are wasting theirs now...
Years ago I realized that many students were being taught math, the same
math, over and over. It was as though if we repeat a thing often enough
students who were not cognitively ready to get something would get it
anyway. Instead, we have a lot of students who have no understanding of
math failing at higher math. Those millions of problems they did as
children did not help them gain understanding. It was just busy work
and memorization. Years ago I took kids who had failed at math for
years and in two or three months taught them basic math--1st grade
through 9th grade math, without them doing hundreds of practice
problems. I learned that if a student was ready to learn something, it
could be learned quick, without all those practice problems. The next
step in my thinking was that if people just waited until a student was
ready to learn something and wanting to learn it, and had a reason to do
so, then maybe all that practice was unnecessary. So, this led me to
realize--all those problems I did, every day, hundreds a week, every
week, for every grade, for 12 years--that was unnecessary. A waste of
my time! It was hard to admit that.
So, I guess my point is that these parents, and their children, MUST buy
into the idea that school, graduation, college, graduation, etc. are the
ONLY way to success. For them to accept their are alternatives that
would be less difficult for their children would make all they have done
and all their children have done, and will do, a waste of time, is too
much for them to comprehend.
> > Maybe school *does* seem like a better option!>I'm not sure what tosay to that because obviously that is not all that she does, and
certainly we are involved in activities with the whole family as well as
unschooling stuff when my husband is atwork.
See, I think this bothers me...
We don't unschool from 9-5. We unschool all the time. 24 hours a day,
365 days a week. Unschooling is how we live, it is our life. That
doesn't mean I don't screw it up occasionally, I'm still human and
learning and growing, but we live unschooling, we dont' do it during
school hours.
Have you asked your daughter what things she wants to do? Helped her
find an interest and helped her follow up on it?
Joylyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 27, 2006, at 7:58 PM, lynne4t wrote:
same as flat-out saying, "School is bad."
Maybe you could consider that your thinking is a little overly "all
or nothing."
School is really good for some kids - it gets them away from
alcoholic parents, abusive parents, disgusting living conditions,
and, sometimes, boring home lives. It gets them in the company of a
lot of other kids so they have a better chance of finding friends. It
sometimes puts them in contact with adults who mentor them in small
or big ways. Sometimes it gives them opportunities to learn about
things the parents would never have thought of offering - playing the
French horn, being a flag girl with the marching band, who knows
what? <G>
Your opinion will carry more weight if your child believes you are
being as objective as possible - weighing all the pros and cons, not
offering just one side in order to make your case.
Also - if you make her argue or resist your wishes in order to go,
she'll have something to prove and might try to stick it out long
after she would have wanted to come home, otherwise.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When I had previously posted that my dd was weighing the pros and consThose books talk about the negative aspects of school. That's not the
> of going to school on Unschooling Basics Pam wrote:
> "She needs more information about the negatives of school.
> Could you
> have her read a bit about school - such as an essay or two from,
> "Dumbing Us Down?" Or the first few chapters of, "The Teenage
> Liberation Handbook?"
>
> Those books teach us that school is bad.
same as flat-out saying, "School is bad."
Maybe you could consider that your thinking is a little overly "all
or nothing."
School is really good for some kids - it gets them away from
alcoholic parents, abusive parents, disgusting living conditions,
and, sometimes, boring home lives. It gets them in the company of a
lot of other kids so they have a better chance of finding friends. It
sometimes puts them in contact with adults who mentor them in small
or big ways. Sometimes it gives them opportunities to learn about
things the parents would never have thought of offering - playing the
French horn, being a flag girl with the marching band, who knows
what? <G>
Your opinion will carry more weight if your child believes you are
being as objective as possible - weighing all the pros and cons, not
offering just one side in order to make your case.
Also - if you make her argue or resist your wishes in order to go,
she'll have something to prove and might try to stick it out long
after she would have wanted to come home, otherwise.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 27, 2006, at 10:10 PM, brownstefani wrote:
both have diplomas - I made them and I think they're lovely <G>. They
needed them for different reasons - Roya's got her out of having to
have a work permit when she was working full-time at 16 years old.
Roxana's helped her be able to register in our community college with
a lot less hassle.
Even if your state doesn't allow you to issue a diploma yourself, you
can sign up with a private school such as Clonlara or, even better,
Beach High School. Here - have a look at this:
<http://www2.cruzio.com/~beachhi/viewpoint.html>
Wes has had hundreds of students enroll in his "school" just for the
purpose of getting a diploma and having transcripts to provide as
needed.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I agree with you on that one but my trying to convince her of thatSo - why can't she get a diploma? My older two unschooled daughters
> wouldn't get us very far. And just for the sake of interest I asked
> a group of parents (schooling mind you) if they thought one could
> get a job without a diploma, they all unequivocably agreed that,
> that may have been true at one time but definitely is no longer the
> case.
both have diplomas - I made them and I think they're lovely <G>. They
needed them for different reasons - Roya's got her out of having to
have a work permit when she was working full-time at 16 years old.
Roxana's helped her be able to register in our community college with
a lot less hassle.
Even if your state doesn't allow you to issue a diploma yourself, you
can sign up with a private school such as Clonlara or, even better,
Beach High School. Here - have a look at this:
<http://www2.cruzio.com/~beachhi/viewpoint.html>
Wes has had hundreds of students enroll in his "school" just for the
purpose of getting a diploma and having transcripts to provide as
needed.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]