Ken Cooper

As I've mentioned in past posts, I have two sons, one 5, the other 7. My
wife and I have been unschooling-lite since they were born. By that I mean
we've taken the approach of strewing and self direction, but haven't given
them total autonomy, and we have put lots of restrictions on their
environment (limits on video game time, no cable access, specific foods).



For the last month or so, I've been embracing a more RU approach, and
arguing for it in our house. My wife has expressed concerns, but has been
willing to give it a try.



Recently, after arranging for a second computer to minimize conflict,
they've gotten into some pretty serious all day Age of Mythology marathons.
It's pushing dw's limits. They come down in the morning, begin playing, and
it's hard even to interest them in meals. In addition to making it difficult
for her to get out of the house, the kids are usually screechy, hyperactive,
and tweaky towards each other when they get off the computer.



I think the evidence on developmental problems in young children is
inconclusive and could easily be outweighed by the benefits, but I share her
concerns about the physical effects of this over the long run - ds5 has
recently complained about his legs and his wrist hurting.



I suspect deschooling, but my conviction isn't deep. We have tried waving
lots of alternative interests under their noses - no luck with ds5, who is
the more obsessed of the two. I also suspect that the computer provides a
safe haven for him against the age superiority of his older brother.



Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing with their young (5ish) kids?
And if so, how has it played out?



Ken







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On May 23, 2006, at 9:10 PM, Ken Cooper wrote:

> I think the evidence on developmental problems in young children is
> inconclusive and could easily be outweighed by the benefits, but I
> share her
> concerns about the physical effects of this over the long run - ds5
> has
> recently complained about his legs and his wrist hurting.


I can stay on the computer until my legs and wrists hurt, if I'm
doing something I really want to do.

Usually, I realize it, and I rearrange my feet, get up and walk,
shake my wrists out, get up and feed the cat or water the yard and
then come back.

BUT... if I thought someone was going to take the computer away, or
that it would be my last chance to use it, I would just keep on no
matter how much it hurt, because I would be afraid to lose the
opportunity.

If and when they become confident that it will still be there in five
minutes, or half an hour, and it's not going to be snatched away or
locked up, THEN they can relax. Not a moment before.

-=-Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing with their young
(5ish) kids?
And if so, how has it played out?-=-

I haven't, because by the time they were five they had been free to
make choices for... five years.
I've seen in lots of others, though, the effects of limits and
deprivation, and how desperately they cling to opportunity when
they're afraid it will be short-lived.

Sandra

Gold Standard

>>>if I thought someone was going to take the computer away, or
>>>that it would be my last chance to use it, I would just keep on no
>>>matter how much it hurt, because I would be afraid to lose the
>>>opportunity.<<<

And if one of the controlling adults in my home was acting as if her limits
were being tested, I would hold on even tighter to get every last drop,
sensing that the explosion was pending or the end of freedom was near.

Parent attitudes are SO important in unschooling. It's not just a matter of
"tolerating" a child's chosen activity (with gritted teeth no less)...it's a
matter of embracing it, being peaceful with it, engaging in it, loving them
in it.

>>ds5 has
>>recently complained about his legs and his wrist hurting.<<

>>the kids are usually screechy, hyperactive,
>>and tweaky towards each other when they get off the computer.<<

Try helping with the symptoms you are seeing (pain, screechiness,
hyperactivity [which may be more aptly described as "need to be
moving"...'hyperactivity' has a negative connotation to it])...rub their
aching body parts, give them a drink of water, run around with them if they
are needing/wanting to move...help them feel good. They really will choose
to feel good most if not all of the time if they know they are free to make
choices. But if they aren't, then getting what they really want for whatever
amount of time they can will win out over feeling balanced and relaxed every
time.

>>In addition to making it difficult
>>for her to get out of the house,<<

And if the reality is that they HAVE to go somewhere with one of you, there
are no other options for them (always be thinking of better and more options
when the kids are unhappy with the only option given), then empathize with
them, stay loving as they emote, tell them "I know, this is hard. We'll just
be gone for 1 hour, then you can get right back to it." Try NOT to feel
resentful that now that you've allowed this freedom to your children
(especially if they know it is tenuous) you are having to "deal" with
behaviors.

Jacki

[email protected]

>>BUT... if I thought someone was going to take the computer away, or
that it would be my last chance to use it, I would just keep on no
matter how much it hurt, because I would be afraid to lose the
opportunity.
If and when they become confident that it will still be there in five
minutes, or half an hour, and it's not going to be snatched away or
locked up, THEN they can relax. Not a moment before.<<


***I believe this is SO true. For example: I am not a fan of TV at all, it's
boring for me and I didn't want our kids *wasting * their time with it too
much. We were looking into the Waldorf School when they were really young. (they
are 21, 12 1/2 and 11 now) We limited their TV time a lot. My sil's kids were
in the Waldorf Schools for years and we began noticing that every time we saw
their kids, on holidays or in the summer when we would all meet for vacation
at my mil's summer home, all they wanted to do is watch TV. If the parents
weren't around the kids went for it every chance they got and if the parents were
there it was always an issue for their whole family. Although we still had
some limits for the kids at that time, we slacked off a lot and the Waldorf idea
went out the window! <g>

We have been unschooling and slowly incorporating RU into our lives for
almost 2 yrs. now. Our kids do watch TV, but at this point in their lives they
could really care less about it. It's just not a big deal to them any longer.
There are some days the TV is never even on, but that's their choice, not ours.
It's the same with the computer. It is on way more than the TV, but they know
when they are tired/bored of it or their butts are getting sore from just
sitting and they will go find other things to do all on their own. We don't need to
tell them, they just do it on their own now. We've noticed a big difference in
their attitudes also. They seem much more happier, relaxed and confident in
themselves. I think they are more conscientious of their choices because *they
know* *they are* capable beings. *They know* because they are free to find
out! :o)

~Nancy



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nellebelle

=-=-=-=I can stay on the computer until my legs and wrists hurt, if I'm
doing something I really want to do.
-=-=-=-=-=

Many people admire those who do certain things until it hurts. No pain, no gain. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. And so on.

Jackie (10yo) bought a new toy Monday, called Bull's Eye Ball. It is an electronic toy that somewhat resembles skee ball. She has played for hours and complained several times that her arm hurts and feels shaky. I suggested that she sometimes switch to her left hand. She said she couldn't, but later decided to give it a try.

Using this toy has led to discussions of angles and force and setting personal goals, so far. And fun!

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On May 24, 2006, at 9:35 AM, nellebelle wrote:

> Jackie (10yo) bought a new toy Monday, called Bull's Eye Ball. It
> is an electronic toy that somewhat resembles skee ball. She has
> played for hours and complained several times that her arm hurts
> and feels shaky. I suggested that she sometimes switch to her left
> hand. She said she couldn't, but later decided to give it a try.


Marty's in the next room playing Guitar Hero (a Playstation game with
a "guitar" as a controller—an electronic game control guitar-shaped
thing with a guitar strap <g>). I've played that until my wrist
ACHED. I just don't notice until it's too late. <g>

But the repetitive motion syndrome studies should be shared with our
kids some. If I'm typing and I leave my hand in position while I'm
reading or thinking, that's not as good as if I pick them up and wag
them around, stretch my wrists, stretch my arms, maybe stand up and
move while I'm thinking.

My solution at home has been to rejoice in my scatteredness. I think
"Oh! I should make tea," and while the water's heating up, I go and
turn the water on in the yard to water flowers or something and I see
that there's a piece of trash to pick up, and then the tea water's
ready, and...

So when I'm feeling stuck (muscle-stuck, or getting emotionally too
keyed up, I try to get up and stretch and breathe, and if it can
involve something useful (feeding the cat, starting another load of
laundry, playing with the dog for a bit), all the better for
everything and everyone.

Kids might not want to get up, but if parents can come and remind
them (at a good moment, not interrupting the game) to stretch their
arms, that would be kind and generous. If a parent waits until a kid
says "Ow" and says "serves you right" or "See? TOLD you games were
bad for you," that is not kind. It is not generous. It's
adversarial, mean, and will take a gouge right out of the
relationship with the child.



Sandra

Willa Ryan

---- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Cooper" <ken@...>
Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing with their young (5ish) kids?
And if so, how has it played out?>>

Here is my experience. I let up on the video game restrictions a month or
so ago. Before that we were "limitations lite" as you say.
My teens probably play less now than they did when we had fixed limits. My
10yo plays a bit more than he did when we had limits, but I like the way he
plays
now better. Now he can feel boredom and stop by choice
and go on to something else.

As for the younger set: my 6yo never really had many video game or TV
restrictions. This is because he is medically fragile and often in the
hospital where videos and TV are a key resource. He also is not
that INTERESTED in spending a lot of time doing these things. He will play
a game for a few minutes and then go on to something else. Right now
he is recovering from having his feeding tube removed and we're trying to
encourage him to watch TV so he'll keep quiet and not stress his wound, but
he'd rather be outside or playing ;-).

My 3yo is the one who is spending the most time on computer games right
now. I remember my other kids going through the same stage when they were
his age. They
suddenly realized how newly capable they were. I'm amazed at all the
things he's figured out how to do with the computer. He can do things that
I can't do.

I guess this feels a bit threatening to me in some ways because I can hear
Jane Healy's voice in my head telling me about his endangered mind and
failure to connect. But this is not really what I SEE when I look at what
he's actually doing. He's going through a developmental surge and the
computer is helping him. He's becoming capable of doing things he couldn't
do a few short months ago, things that consolidate his membership in the
family.
So maybe the game is a haven for your 5yo but maybe it's also a challenge he
can meet and feel good about?

My 3.5yo does seem to have a lot of wiggliness after he's played for a while
so Jacki's description of the "need to move" is helpful for me. He will
charge at me and want to wrestle, without much warning. So knowing this, I
can be ready to do some active interpersonal play after he gets off the
computer rather than being surprised and irritated by his sudden energy.

I was thinking that if your 5yo is playing on the computer for a
long time and then showing energy and some irritation afterwards, he might
need a transition time. My 6yo sometimes needs help and support in
transitioning from high focus activities to the broader stimulation of the
regular environment. Some of the things on this page
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Spirited.html are some of the same
things that have helped me with my high-intensity kids. Especially the
calming/organizing activities suggested by treegoddess if you scroll
down a bit.
HTH
Willa

Sandra Dodd

On May 25, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Willa Ryan wrote:

> I guess this feels a bit threatening to me in some ways because I
> can hear
> Jane Healy's voice in my head telling me about his endangered mind and
> failure to connect.


Very bizarrely, Jane Healy spoke at a homeschooling conference when
she had never yet once met a homeschooled teen. Unschooled teens
picked her up at the airport and she was impressed by them.

When research is based on what contributes to school success, that
doesn't really apply to unschoolers.
And when researchers haven't seen any "natural" behavior, in kids for
whom school isn't a factor, and whose lives aren't being managed for
them in light of school's schedules and expectations, then the
research starts from a very flawed place, and our use of their
"proofs" will be invalid.

Sandra